483: Justine Snacks, Cooks, Writes, and Inspires with Justine Doiron

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. The kitchen is the one room you are moving things and grabbing for things and getting and working with things way more than any other room. And if you move your kitchen to function for you, it just makes the whole process so much more enjoyable. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rothbard.

0:59Justine Duran is the recipe developer and food creator behind Justine Snacks. Known for her simple, inventive recipes across Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, Justine specializes in comfortable, cookable food with a focus on seasonality and approachable ingredients. On this episode, we have such a great conversation about her debut cookbook, Justine Cooks. We go over what she is cooking in her Brooklyn apartment and what went into creating this truly remarkable debut. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:41Justine Doran, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you doing? I'm doing so good. Thank you for having me. I love your book. We're recording this in mid-August. It's coming out in a few months, but you must be excited. I'm so excited. I was telling you earlier, seeing it in real life has changed everything about the book, and I just can't wait for everybody to see it. You really took your time on it, too. I love how measured it is. What I like about the book is a couple things. First, the photography is really, really beautiful, and the production is nice, so the photography is really standout. And second, I just love your writing.

2:16It like blends the internet with, I'd say like more like literary sensibilities. I'll take that as a compliment that you kind of do both at the same time, which is hard. I really appreciate that. What I did with the writing was I kind of, that was the part that was really personal to me. Like the photography, I can take absolutely no credit for it. That was all Francis Boswell, my food stylist, Brooke Deanna Rien, prop stylist, and then Jim Henkins, photographer, who's amazing. And they really took the lead on that. But the writing was like my baby. And what I wanted to do was to take kind of my newsletter, which is where I connect with my audience, and then flesh it out to a perspective on food that could really tell a story through the book.

2:52I love it. I mean, we're going to get into a couple cool essays, sidebars that you do, and you really have a strong point of view. But I first got to ask, you know, New York City, it's summer. It's time to eat outside. It's time to eat at restaurants and support restaurants. Where have you been going out? Ooh, I like this question. I like this question mostly because I really like New York food in the summer. I feel like a lot of people are like, it's so hot. Get out of the city. And I'm like, no, it's dining alfres. Hard agree. Yeah. And so I recently moved a little further out in Brooklyn, so I've kind of been falling in love with my neighborhood again.

3:26But a place I went to recently, Strange Delight by Ham El Wiley. Yeah, totally. So fun. Like I was just looking at the menu and it mixes New Orleans-centric dishes, but it's got a finer dining edge. But it was a long time since I've seen a menu that's just so fun. And so that's been a place that I've been really loving. Of course, I like Hearts, which is in my neighborhood. And then The Fly, which is its sister restaurant. But my thing about The Fly, great outdoor space. Wonderful for cocktails and everything. I don't eat meat. So it's a chicken based restaurant. Yeah. So I just go for the cocktails and the fries and I have a great time.

4:08It's amazing that you can actually have a meal out of cocktails and fries. I'm super into that choice. And their corn is also really good. Oh, there you go. Throw in some corn. And I totally think of that as a full meal, especially on a Friday night. So this is a fun one. So I had Sarah Fennell from Broma Bakery. I had Carolina Gellin from the Internet and from cookbooks on in the same day. And I come to find out that the three of you, three of the authors here at Penguin Random House at Crown Publishing Group for this fall, went out to dinner together and like talked shop, talked shit, praised each other.

4:44What was that meal like? Yeah, we should have invited you guys. I'm sorry. Next time. Definitely not. I want you guys. That's your time. That actually that happened on accident because Sarah just moved to the city. Yeah. And so she and I have been meaning to get together for a long time. She has been a great friend and a really good advocate for my work and help with the book. Like we've been talking since we were both writing our books at the same time. And so we were meaning to get together. And then Carolina messaged me and was like, I'm going to be in town for two days because she does that.

5:11She comes in and out of New York City all the time. And so we decided to get together. And we really did talk about just you. We talked about this podcast. Oh, man. Mostly because I didn't know that there's a question about your least favorite vegetable. Yeah. And so they prepared me. I'm very prepared with my answer. Oh, my gosh. You guys, the taste check has gotten, there's like a little bit of a Cliff's Notes version of the taste check for you from your fellow guests. Yeah, I know. I got a precursor, so I got lucky with that. So where did you guys go out? So we went to a party that Catherine Lewin from Big Night was hosting.

5:45Her book came out. Another former guest? Yeah, killing it. Love her. And so I wanted to intro them to her because she's also a great friend, great shop. And then we, of course, talked a bit about books, but mostly I was like, guys, we're off the clock. Yeah. It was really just, you know, catching up. Casual stuff. Yeah. Well, the three of you, we're rolling out your episodes this fall, but they're all tremendous conversations. And I really, really appreciate what you're all doing. Justine, let's back up a bit. For listeners who aren't familiar with your style of cooking and what you do online and how you activate your audience, tell us a little bit about how do you define that style?

6:27So I definitely define it as plant forward, innovative cooking. I say plant forward and not plant based because I'm not plant based. But every recipe that I develop usually has a strong emphasis on plants, vegetables, produce, even plant based proteins. That's just how I like to eat. That's what appeals to me. I always used to tell people that I don't cook for you once a month. I want to cook for you every day. Like those are where my recipes are focused. It's kind of exciting new things that you might not see everywhere. Because I love a panzanella salad, but you probably don't need another panzanella recipe.

7:06Probably not. The internet is like a little overindexed on that. I mean, no shade to panzanella. No, I love it. Put bread in a salad and it's my thing. Yeah, but there's definitely some SEO happening with Panzanillas. And so I entered this crazy SEO world when I started this job, and you can't really play that game anymore. I mean, a lot of people have amazing recipes, and that's why those recipes are staples. But I always try to focus on what could I do to make this a little bit more interesting? What could I do to make this something people haven't seen before? But also what can I do to make this a very approachable, plant-forward recipe that you want to eat that'll make you feel really good?

7:43Love that. I, there's, there's a really cool moment in the book and an essay that you kind of articulate this idea of living with the kitchen in your home. And I'm quoting living with, because it's kind of the perfect term about how we cook. Because, like, no one has the idealized space. No one has that, like, that photo studio that you see in many cookbooks. It's usually there's a few flaws happening, you know, between the size of your oven, the size of your refrigerator, your workspace. And so you're acknowledging this, which I think is really smart. Talk about the way that we should live with our kitchens.

8:21Well, I think compared to any other room, like your living room, you very much you go in, but you're not moving around a lot of stuff. You're not like getting into your credenza all the time. The kitchen is the one room that I think we don't talk about this enough. You are moving things and grabbing for things and getting and working with things way more than any other room. And that can range from my old tiny apartment kitchen to like these big kitchens with beautiful islands. Like you were really kind of every day doing a dance with your kitchen. Oh, I love that. And if you move your kitchen to function for you, it just makes the whole process so much more enjoyable.

8:56So when I say that, I mean, everybody probably keeps their plates near their dishwasher. That just makes the most sense. But I'm talking about if you have a food processor, I have a tiny one. I try to keep that within reach because otherwise I'm never going to use it. And it makes my kitchen feel like it's fighting against me if I want to make a recipe instead of it's working with me. And then you were talking about major appliances. I feel the same way. Like you've got to kind of understand the ticks of your stove. Like what burner has hot spots? What burner is your favorite? I think we can all agree.

9:27Bottom left. Wait a sec. Bottom right is mine. See, OK. I think it also has to do with your kitchen because my bottom right is too close to the wall. So there you go. So my bottom left and bottom right are kind of equally spaced out. And because I'm right handed, I feel that that makes the bottom right a little better for me. Interesting. Because I like kind of swing out a bit. Okay. But if I didn't have that swing out space, I would be bottom left. You know, my old kitchen in my Brooklyn apartment, I definitely was more bottom left. You're right. Well, now I'm thinking my wall was on the other side.

9:56It's very functional. You got to think about it. What's cool, too, that you mentioned having things out. because I had the guys from Burlap and Barrel on. They're like, great tip. Put your spices on your counter that you're going to cook with. Oh, yeah. I feel like we live in a kind of like society where we have to have our kitchens really tidy and really perfect and Pinterest-y. But in fact, if you actually are doing the cooking, and not everyone is, but the folks who want to make one to four meals a week, you got to put the stuff out so you can see it and use it. Oh, 100%. So I one of the best things I did was rice flour is a very weird ingredient, but I use it every time I fold sourdough.

10:34So I took my rice flour and I was like, instead of having this in this weird corner where I spill it every time I get it out, it's in a ramekin on my counter. Right there. Yeah. And it just reminds me like, oh, this is something I want to do every Saturday. I don't cook. I don't bake every Saturday, but it just it's a reminder. I love that you mentioned bread, Justin, because you're like sneaky, like like genius bread person. Like your recipes, we'll get to that. I don't want to spoil that part. But you're terrific on the bread side. You call yourself a breakfast romantic, which I think is really part of your energy that you make like statements about who you are and the emotion that comes to you while cooking.

11:15And you kind of want to protect breakfast with your life. Explain. So that's probably a direct quote from the book. I love breakfast probably because I know so many people who aren't a breakfast eater. And I'm like, this is what I think about at 8 p.m. the night before. Like I am planning my breakfast. I'm looking forward to it. But what I say in the book and how I describe it is it doesn't have to be a huge cooking project, but just giving yourself an extra two minutes to make something nice or like an extra time to kind of cook and meditate over what you're doing. It just sets my day up for a much better day.

11:52it kind of is a self-care practice. Not to get too romantic. The book says it much better than I'm saying it right now. You're doing a good job. You're paraphrasing. But yeah, I will never say your breakfast needs to take you eight pots and pans and a food processor, like I mentioned. But I do think having grudel on the side that you can mix with your favorite yogurt and pause and actually eat instead of the crazy things that I used to do, which was pack up dry oatmeal in a Ziploc bag and hopefully find a microwave along my way. There's just a nice practice about that that I really wanted to emphasize in the book.

12:27Sweet and savory oatmeal, you have both and I love it. And I want to dig into the recipes a bit. So tell me about each of these. Okay. So I needed a sweet and a savory. I wasn't going to do just one oatmeal, especially in a cookbook. I would feel cheated if I only got one oatmeal recipe. So the sweet one is sticky dates and miso with a stewed apple. I always forget the exact name of the recipe. But that's the gist. It's the gist. There's miso in it. But so important because I make that for myself all the time, mostly because fermented foods, good for you. Love miso. But miso adds a saltiness that pairs well with the sticky sweetness of the dates, which as they stew down with the apple and the oatmeal kind of melt into a caramely texture.

13:13So the dates have completely disappeared by the time you're done cooking the oats. It's amazing. And the miso, instead of doing what salt does, which is just very like, hello, I'm here. I'm salt. Miso kind of melts into that and makes this really rich, unctuous taste of the oatmeal bowl. And it reminds me a little bit of the saltiness in the Quaker Oats instant oatmeal packets, which I think is one of the best things. No need to go low with your voice with that statement. Okay. Let's go and put that in the foreground. The salt level in those, I would say apple, I would say brown sugar is probably my favorite.

13:46Maple is my favorite. It's salty. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. It's so salty. Is that every kind of food that you do buy has a salty sweet kick to it. Totally. And so that's why I love the miso in there. Now, the savory oats are very much an homage to my grandparents and how they would serve us oatmeal, which was just plain hunk of butter, milk. Wow. And it was a very, they were German, so I don't know. A stair Germans. Very much. I think we might have gotten salt if we were lucky. But that was the savory oatmeal of my memories. And so when I made this savory oatmeal recipe, which is a hunk of butter and za 'atar, I wanted to kind of have the same feeling of just like hearty, earthy, fulfilling, but just an extra zip of interesting that makes the breakfast like a little romanticized.

14:38I love a butter za 'atar oatmeal for breakfast. It's a really smart idea. Oh, I thought you were saying you'd done it before. And I was like, is this a thing? No, no, I love it. And I'm definitely thinking about it. Let's zoom out a bit. I want to get a sense of how you develop your recipes, because it's clear that you think about them deeply, but you really want to have originality and accessibility. I see both of them. Take us through your process to develop. I'm very visually inspired and I'm very culturally inspired. So the za 'atar oats, for example, Lebanese culture, like I very much like to take what other cultures have been doing for centuries, learn about it, respect that at its core, and then also kind of transform it.

15:18So, I mean, everybody loves gochujang, but you know that there's different ways that you can apply those cultural traditions to new techniques. And then when I say I'm visually inspired, I will see food and be like, wow, that's beautiful. But then it then punctures images of other foods. So, for example, one of my most famous salads, which is in the book, it's baked salad with chili quinoa. And that salad visually is very piled high, kind of triangular with chili quinoa piled on top. That was inspired by a tostada. Oh, fun. Because I saw a crab tostada, which was really piled, and there was cilantro falling off the top.

15:58And I was like, that's beautiful. What if we could make a salad look like that? So I'm really inspired by a lot of things that have been done before because everything in food has been done before. Well, once you recognize that you're a successful recipe developer, you can't just think, I'm going to make this fully original from whole cloth recipe. Respecting the past, but also, of course, bringing a twist or two. A hundred percent. Let's talk about salads because in 2024, I would say there's a lot of salads out there in the recipe world. There's books about it. There's chapters. And like I know being a plant forward chef and cookbook author yourself, you needed to have it.

16:40But I would imagine this was a challenge because you need the salad chapter to be original. And there's a lot out there. There's a lot out there. And there are a lot of really great salad books out there. And a lot of salad books that I have had that I thrifted that have been from like the early 2000s that are also amazing. So my salads chapter, I really wanted to be true to the book. And the book is if somebody picks this up and they're either a super foodie love cooking or they've never cooked before, they'll see something and learn from it and be inspired to take it and transform it. so salads which again so much discourse so much love for salads i wanted mine to be so doable that it was almost um that it was almost like nobody would be intimidated by a recipe for example the celery with torn dates and mint like that's easy delicious but lots of people aren't what's the dressing on that one uh i think it's just white wine vinegar and olive oil Super simple.

17:37Very cool. I'm very, this book in particular, I think there's only two salads with proper dressings. I really have been relying on like a squeeze of lemon, a bit of olive oil, because I'm 10 times more likely to make a salad and enjoy it if I can do it all in one bowl. Agree. So let me ask you, red wine vin versus lemon, when you're choosing your acids, I've kind of gone back and forth on my preference for salad dressing. Do you have one? Those are my two favorite acids. I'm going to throw sherry and vinegar in there. Sherry's nice, too. I like the nuttiness. Yeah, exactly. It's a little bit more of that.

18:09I think right now, if you were to ask me, I'd say red wine vinegar because I think it airs a little bit sweeter. And I over-lemoned myself this summer. That hurts. You love it so much, but sometimes you just go too far. You go too far. And with salad dressings, I'm more on the lemon side right now, personally. So my wife Tamara and I are thinking lemon, forward salad dressings, emulsify with olive oil, maybe put an egg yolk in there. I know it's not your jam, but I'm all about this idea of kind of switching it up with the salad dressings. And I know you said egg yolk's not my jam. Is that because of the tonado?

18:44Yeah. Okay. It's more I don't like separating an egg from its family. It was the tonado I was thinking about exactly. Yeah. I don't want to ask somebody to separate an egg if they don't have to. Yeah. And it's mostly because a lot of people will be like, what do I do with this yolk? What do I do with this egg? No, tonado is an interesting topic. Mm-hmm. I think for some, it's a little intimidating. I think people don't get it because I'm asking you, and for people listening who don't know what Tonato is, it's a blended tuna sauce. So I am asking people to blend up fish, and I think a lot of people are a little hesitant.

19:19But I think now that we're in the tinned fish boom, a lot more people are going to get on board. We're getting closer with our fillets and our tins. So you're blending it up, but you're thinking about it as like a condiment that can work on salad and other dishes. I drag asparagus through that every day. So if you want a reason to eat vegetables, tomorrow. Basic underscore beans, which is, you know, an Internet thing. I love it. I love that you kind of throw these little flourishes of online vernacular and culture into your writing. I'm a big fan of that. Basic underscore beans has a story. What's the story here?

19:56I fought for Basic underscore Beans. I am worried for the person who picks up this book in anthropology and is like, Basic underscore Beans, which is why the head note explains the story. Right. The first username I ever had on the Internet was Justine underscore Snacks. It's still my username. It's a great name. Thank you. But when I chose that name, it was a complete joke. It was for fun. And I think there's a lot of fun that has been lost from cooking and doesn't translate. So I made basic underscore beans follow suit because I'm known for beans. This is a classic beans recipe. And that's the story I wanted it to have.

20:29So you won the battle. I did. I've had these battles. I had to fight for putting an emoji in a head note. Yeah. We have a very easy editor, though. We share one. Yeah. Susan, we'll get to her. We will. I love the idea that there is a buttered noodle universe where tahini enters the picture. I am a fan of this dish. And when I saw it, I'm like, I haven't quite articulated that starch, like the butter noodle. I mean, of course, I've seen tahini and butter. But the butter noodle, wow, nice work there. Thank you. I love that recipe. It's my fiance's favorite. And after we closed the book, Done and Dusted, there was a time where I needed two months off.

21:12You know, you just can't keep cooking those recipes you've been testing forever. but the brown butter tahini noodles stayed in our rotation. They're so easy. 10 minutes and I call it the adult version of Kraft macaroni and cheese. Completely agree. And you can have it as a main, you can have it as a side, you can have it. I'm going to make it actually this week. I have a friend coming over. I'm going to do that one. That's one where lemon saves the dish. Interesting, tell me more. Because if it was just, well, actually three things save the dish, but if it was just the brown butter and tahini, which is what emulsifies, that would be so heavy.

21:43And so the lemon kind of takes that heaviness and is like, oh, turns it on its head. And it makes it something that you want to go back for another bite and another bite and another. And then I think the Aleppo pepper and mint also just add a tiny level up. You could serve it without it. We do that all the time. But it just it makes it go from butter noodles to like, oh, butter noodles. Let me ask you about mint. When do you know it's too much mint? Oh, it's tough, right? It's very tough. But, you know, as soon as you take a bite. Certainly. I made a salad this weekend and I over minted because the herbs at the farmer's market are so good right now.

22:19Yeah. And they give you a lot. Yeah. And then you feel like, I can't just use like one or two. I got to use like 25. Yes. And then you're like in over mint territory. Did that. Regretted it. I think I try to go like one fourth cup. Yeah. Yeah. And are you hand torn? Hand torn. I have a bit in the book about a chiffonade cut. But I think every now and then you just got to realize I'm not a chiffonade cut person. Not for mint. I mean, I like it for other things, but I like just popping it a little bit with your hand. Nice. Makes your hand smell nice. And then you kind of open it up a little bit.

22:50Yeah, I do the rub. The rub is probably good. Okay, let's talk about St. Louis. You're from there. You're from this fine city in America. That doesn't really get a lot of press. I know Claire Saffitz, my friend, is from there as well. I'd love to get your sense, Justine, about St. Louis food ways. Is there a dish or two that defines St. Louis? Oh, man. Loaded question because St. Louis is such a good food city. It is. Does not get enough press. And also, I would move back there in a heartbeat. I know Claire is very happy in Hudson Valley. I would move back to St. Louis in a heartbeat. But she made a great gooey butter cake recipe, and I think that's a St.

23:24Louis staple. But if you were to ask me the quintessential St. Louis food, it would be St. Louis thin crust pizza with Prevell cheese. Oh, yep. It's what differentiates it. Did Kenji talk about his Chicago pizza piece? No, we had him on before that piece dropped, but we've had many talk about Chicago Tavern on the show. So I know what you're talking about. So it's like for people who are familiar with that, St. Louis style pizza is taking that crust that you can see through and then putting on a very, very sweet tomato sauce and Provel cheese, which I can't describe other than like gooey, messy.

24:01and gosh, it is so nostalgic and so good. But if you don't live in St. Louis, I don't think you can adapt your taste to it. It doesn't quite work for some. I love the meltability of Pevelle. It's really smart, smart cheese to use. I fully recognize that some people don't get it, but I love, I love that meltability. What about brick cheese? Like brick cheese on Detroit style. You know, that's... I love it. Yeah, Detroit style is pretty good too. Detroit style, if I could only eat one pizza style for the rest of my life, it would probably be between Detroit and St. Louis. Yeah, I got to get St. Louis.

24:34You're a sneaky, incredible bread baker. Just from your videos and your online content, but also from this recipe section, this chapter, tell me about how does bread and baking play into your world because it's kind of a sneaky superpower you have. I wanted a bread chapter in the book really badly because I'm a firm believer that cooking is baking and baking is cooking. I know I could argue with a lot of people on this because so many people will say, oh, I'm not a baker. I'm more of a chef or I'm not a cook. I'm more of a baker. And I really do think they overlap way more than people think. Both involve ingredients that want to be worked with, time that wants to be manipulated and like patience on both ends and stress on both ends.