491: Do You Really Know the Cronut Daddy, Dominique Ansel?

28:11That's incredible. Who was the journalist? What was the article? It was Hugh Merwin from Crop Street. Shout out to Hugh Merwin. I love, he wrote the first article on the Corona. Let's put it on the record. He did. And it was a friend back then. He was like, Dominique, you will never guess. Like my article went viral. I was like, what? With viral? What does it even mean? Right. You know, the time when no one even like know what social media is, like, what do you mean we're viral? I was like, this is going crazy. Like, you should be ready to make some more. I was like, okay, I made 30 today. I'm going to make 45 tomorrow.

28:43A little did I know, by day three, we had over 150 people lining up at the door before opening. And I was like, what is going on here? That's incredible. I remember still four employees. Is this the first year you're open? That was the first. It opened at the end of 2011, and Cronut was 2013. 2013 Mother's Day is when the Cronut hit. A year after. So about a year and a half. So Hugh's article hits. There's like a viral sensation. But you still got that tiny kitchen. So how are you making up for the demand? How are you filling these orders? So that's a good question. We couldn't keep up. That was just madness.

29:27people were lining up as early as 2 o 'clock in the morning they were like killing the lions arguing they were like fighting screaming each other police was called wait stop the neighbors neighbors was calling the police there was there was madness solicitors were coming like it was it was a mess every single day so very early on I had to hire security and if you had told me 10 years ago you hire security for the bakery I would have love for you like this is ridiculous I had to hire security because I was running back and forth trying to calm everyone down and talking to the police and I couldn't be inside the kitchen.

30:04And with my team, it was just like madness. And we needed security. We needed like a bouncer outside for the bakery. Then keeping up with Deben, you know, we increased quantity slowly, but I couldn't do more than what I had, you know. You kept scarcity there. A couple of dozen. Keep the buzz going a little bit. I mean, that was not the plan. which is like the tiniest kitchen ever. There's so little we could do. I was working probably like 20, 22 hours a day. I was barely sleeping. I was skin and bone. It was a rough time. And the staff wanted to quit because it was too busy. And, you know, they were getting yelled at by the customers because we didn't make enough.

30:43We had no rules, nothing in place. And early on, I decided to focus on customer service and keep the quality of the product intact, no matter what. So a lot of people will come and tell me, oh, you should open a factory. It's time to cash out and mass produce this. Great idea. I decided not to. I want to keep it original, authentic. We change the flavor every single month. We have never repeated a flavor. That's amazing. So we keep challenging ourselves with the flavors. We keep it unique every month. And, you know, this is it. Was it ever going to be the dosan and not the cronut? So we registered the trademark.

31:28A friend of ours, which was our lawyer, was doing the trademark for Dominican South Bakery. And when this, when this, all of this happened, there was like day probably four or five. And she was like, oh, you should trademark the connect. I laughed at her. I was like, this is ridiculous. No, no, she's like, no, no, you should do it. And she sat me down. She's like, listen, I'm a lawyer. I'm telling you, you should do this. And this is why it's important. If you don't trademark it, big industry will come. They will register the mark and they will prevent you from using your mark. And this is what I do.

32:03I'm an IP lawyer. Like, this is what I do for a living. You have to. I was like, no, no, no. Really, like, she insisted and she did it for me. She did it. Great. Yes. Five days later after that, so day 10, there were about 27 applications to register the mark on it. Wow. But we were the first in to, you know, so we own the right of the corner. This is our brand. This is our mark. But this is amazing how, like, she's telling me a lot of, like, small business owners, when they come up with good ideas like this, they just get bullied and they just get shut down by big industrial. Yeah, it's great advice.

32:40Do you have to defend that mark every day of the week? You have to defend it. Do you defend it a lot yourself? No, not myself. Of course, my lawyers were taking care of it. I could barely make those corners. I was working 20 hours in the kitchen. No, no. I meant like your team defense to this day. You have to. Yeah, to this day. You have to. You have to protect your mark, which is the hardest thing to do. You have to educate people on why it's important. Like they can, of course, people get inspired. Of course, people want to do something similar. A lot of people just want to rip it off. They just want to do something and cash out on it too.

33:14So there's some bad people out there. It's hard to tell who's doing what. But we just have to tell people that the mark is registered and they cannot use the mark. So that's why people, you know, try to make imitation and call it something else. Oh, we've tried those. We've tried those copycat. It's like with fashion, you know, like you want the real like Hermes bag or do you want the fake one? Up for debate on that. But I'll tell you, I'll tell you that the fake Cronus out there aren't good. And I need to stress that I've had your Cronus over the years. It's really good. Like, there's something happening there for any fan of laminated dough, any fan of voigniceries.

33:56I think that this is one of the best pastries you're going to get. It is. It is a great pastry. I think it's a genuine, authentic idea that was executed perfectly at a time where, you know, not much was happening in the world of pastry. Nope. And it took the world by storm. It's amazing. Like looking back, I don't think I realized right away, I think I was just overwhelmed with like trying to keep up, keeping the team together, keeping the quality, keeping the customers happy. I was just like overwhelmed for actually many years and traumatized by like the crash of like pressure behind like keeping you authentic.

34:39That only now looking back, I'm like, this was a beautiful idea and we did everything right. If I had to do it again, I'll do the same thing. I love that you can say that. And my next question is about the pressure. Because there's a pressure to make the next cronut. There's a pressure to make the next viral pastry because, Dominique, you're the guy who does it. Did you, I mean, how did you negotiate that? It's funny because every interview while we created the cronut, it's like, what's next? What's next? Yeah, I know. What's next? What's next? The frozen smalls, what's next? And the cookie shots, what's next?

35:16How many pastries do you want me to go, like, get viral, you know? And I'm not, like, a viral machine of, like, creating pastry. You cannot, like, plan it. You have bars, Dominique. Bars. These are bars. You can, they come out like you're Jay-Z. I mean, you've got these bars. They're beautiful creations. And we've done, like, many before that and many more after that. It's now at a time where there's so much pressure with social media, of like things going viral that people create just for social media, which is a different generation. But back then, they were just all these still are signature.

35:55They still are beautiful creations and you cannot force it. You cannot force yourself to like create. You can give me all the time and money of the world tomorrow. You cannot force someone to create something that will go viral. You don't decide. People decide. Last question about the corona. How many are you selling a year now? A year? Yeah. I have no idea. We do a couple hundred a day, but we keep, again, keep the quality very good, very top. You know, the flavors changes, still changes every single month. We've created over like 300-something flavors throughout the years. It's fun. It's getting harder, but it's fun.

36:32And it's still like very precious and very special. It's very fun that you can iterate every month. And you've got a location in Las Vegas, too. so you can get the cronut out in Vegas. You can get it in New York City. Any other expansion plans? That's it for now. That's it for now. Man, I respect it, dude. You keep it really, really small when you could have obviously done Dunkin' Cronuts. I mean, and I'm sure the money was there, but you obviously have a love for craft. We'll get to the cookbook, but I have a couple more questions about your work. What is workshop? Because I know that there's the bakery.

37:09you can walk in and grab pastries. But is there, there's more of a seated format? So the workshop is, first is our main kitchen. This is where we have a little more space there. We can produce for the bakery and for the workshop. The workshop, you know, growing up in the kitchen, I always love, love, love croissants and bien-oisserie. So I wanted to make a small shop dedicated to that. So it's about like 12 to 14 selection of different croissants type. some sweet, some savory that shows like a little more technique, a little bit more, you know, flavors and style of, you know, of croissants. And they had the workshop.

37:48The idea was to utilize most of the kitchen for production and to use a little front of it, the front shop, just for the croissants. Love that. Are you ever doing events, like seated dinners? Because I know back in the day, you used to have, you know, some events up there, which I kind of... Yeah, when we were in the West Village, we had an app. We call it App for Unlimited Possibility. I got to go to one. They were rad, man. Yeah, it was amazing. We actually hanged a table on the ceiling of the kitchen, which my designer told me I was crazy. I shouldn't do that. We did it. It was working very well.

38:24So every night, not every night, a few nights a week, we'll clean up the kitchen, drop the table from the ceiling down to the floor, and people will have dinner in the middle of the kitchen, our production kitchen, And we'll do like a tasting menu with six, eight, ten different desserts. Towards the end, we mix it up with some savory as well. People loved it. It was such an experience. And every menu had a theme. And every theme will change every six to eight months. What happened? Why isn't it there anymore? It's not there because we moved during COVID. Our landlord was not the best at the time.

39:00Our landlord in the West Village. We were forced to move because everything went down. We lost a lot of police, a lot of customers. We lost everything, like most people. Gratefully, our landlord on Spring Street was always supportive and always here with us. Amazing landlords and they had a space in Flatiron on 27th Street and they offered us to move our kitchen there and they helped us build it out. So it was a blessing. It was a blessing. It was a great opportunity for us. Hug your landlord if you have a good landlord. They're kind of rare in this day and age. I love that you bring that up. I mean, I've had P.

39:41Cheong on the show and others in pastry, Alex Dupac, and I've talked about this idea of the degustation menu for pastry and dessert. Do you feel there's an audience of pastry freaks who want to come in and have just pastry, maybe a few savory, but all pastry on a tasting level? I think there's an audience. It's not the biggest one. I don't think these people necessarily look for like pastry or sweets. I think they look, everybody now, they look for an experience more than, you know, the actual food you're eating. If you can combine both, which is what we're doing, it became an amazing experience.

40:23Yeah, I think having wine, having a little savory, having some music, it's all part of the package. And I fully agree. I think there's a select few who could go all day and have seven dessert-plated desserts. Yeah, you know, for us, we had themes as well. Yeah. The first menu was called First. So we had all the first time in your life. So, for example, the first kiss was a little dish that was custom made with a little pin panna cotta. And you had to slip this. That was amazing. That was very fun. I like it. Our first heartbreak was a beautiful flower that catches on fire on the plate. Like the first time living on your own.

41:02There's a lot of first time in your life that are very memorable. And we're trying to retrace this. And we brought people to a conversation, to a unique experience where everyone was sharing their first time without even asking. and that brings you back to time memories and when you can enjoy food and have like a topic of conversation and experience that's unique. That was amazing. That was an amazing time. I hope one day you're back in that zone. I know you're busy. You've got young children as well. So maybe you can't be working at the pass, but I'd love to come in and have you do a dessert tasting for me one day.

41:40I hope you can do that. Let's talk about your new book, Life's Sweetest Moments. What inspired you to be a little more personal with this book? And what is this book doing and saying? I think it's a time where, like, you know, I was thinking about experience, like, and experiences and food in general. It's all linked to, like, memories to me. Memory is something very important. Childhood memory, like, friendship memory, family memory. And this book talks a lot about, like, stories that happened at the bakery. on Spring Street. A lot of people we've met, a lot of people that have an impact. Sometimes it's very small.

42:21Sometimes it's just meeting someone for a few minutes. Sometimes it's like building a real relationship. And this book talks about recipes and why you bake. So a lot of people like bake to say thank you. People like bake and buy pastry, say sorry. People buy pastry to celebrate. There's a lot of different reasons in life why people bake. And baking is always like a common point of like a conversation where like people eat something sweet to forgive, to celebrate, to like, to congratulate people. And it's amazing how like throughout the years, like, you know, you were saying like bakery is a part of the community.

43:00It's a community. It's like still like it doesn't matter how like how big your reputation is. We're still a neighborhood business that brings people together. And I saw that, you know, during COVID more than anything else, when everything was shut down and the only place where people would meet was our bakery. Yeah, your bakery and your cronuts and your coffees. So this book talks a lot about like those simple recipes that you can do at home and why I create those recipes. What's the first one I'm turning to? I know it's a hard question. Is there one? Did you see the book? Of course. I saw the book.

43:34Let me. I know the move. I've done these interviews on the other side of the mic where you're asked about a recipe. You've got to look through it because that's how it rolls. I know the vibe, brother. It's tough. You asked me to choose one. I know. I gave you the worst possible question. I just like to get a sense of one that really sticks out. Give me one chance. One chance to look through and pick one. Yeah. Why not? There's too many I know. Let's see. Okay, I'll talk about the brown butter mochi. Oh, my God. So that's a very simple recipe. It's a brown butter mochi that is bouleau on top, just like a crème boule.

44:16So the story behind this goes, my wife and I, like, finally after a year of opening the bakery, we took some vacation. We took four days, and we decided to travel a little bit, and we went to Hawaii. Hawaii for four days is a short trip. Yeah, short trip. It was a short trip, but we couldn't take more time. We had like so little stuff. So we took four days, we went to Hawaii. And we had a great moment there. Of course, had some mochi, the huge Asian community. Hawaiian mochis are very famous. So I came back, and this is when we launched the Kronut. So Hawaii was my last vacation after like, you know, years of not taking vacation.

45:01that was my last vacation before we launched the cornut came back and launched the cornut in May 2013 and that's my little story behind remembering that moment where I took my last vacation that last time you get to actually relax butter mochi is such a great recipe it's pretty easy too to make it's so good, so simple to make this couple of ingredients you mix it together put it in a pan in the oven and then just cut them to squares put a little sugar torch the top It's so simple. It's like chewy. Like we make it with brown butter. Yeah. It's nice. Nutty flavor. It's like a little crispy on top.

45:37Very easy to make. How do you torch it? Do you actually use a flame? We actually use a torch. You got to. Yeah. You have to, yeah. Buy that kitchen torch, guys. Yeah. Just buy one. Just be careful with it. Be careful, of course. Like a mandolin, you got to be careful. I love that recipe. And what's the flour? It's like glutinous flour, right? Yes, it's rice flour. Rice flour, glutinous rice flour. We use mochiko for that recipe. Yeah, of course. Mochico is the guy. It's classic. You got to have a box. Yeah, because I think if you have Mochico, this is a gluten-free recipe. It is. Yeah, that's the cool thing about butter mochi.

46:08Great call there. I love it. Dominique, on This is Taste, we asked guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast, and furious taste check. Are you ready? I have to be. You're going to do this. I know it. The best fruit. Best fruit, pineapple. Okay, so what is a great pineapple to you? So the best pineapple I've ever had was in Martinique, which is a French island in the Caribbean. I was driving by, and I saw this guy with this little stand with pineapple, stopped by. Of course, they were fresh. They were ripe from the spot. They were picked ripe.

46:43And I just cut the pineapple, give it to you. It's the juiciest, most floral, refreshing. and like it was the greatest pineapple in my life I have a similar story in Hawaii I went to a Costco of all places had fresh pineapple and it like lit up my brain it's the acidity balance right like in good pineapple it's like that brightness yeah you have a little acidity like you have the right amount of sweetness but you have all the floral notes as well all the floral which is you know sadly we don't always get this in the city because everything is imported exactly everything is picked when it's not ripe sits in a truck for like weeks.

47:21Yeah. And by the time you get it, it's kind of like, okay, but it's never as good as a fresh pineapple. The best dessert. Have you ever had all the best desserts I make? Your interpretation, category-wise, like if you're broadly speaking, the best dessert. I love a good chiamisu. Comes up a lot on the show. Yeah. Chiamisu, it's simple. It's like, you know, it's like kind of like comforting. It's creamy. It's like a little hint of coffee. It's like, if the biscuit is well-socked, a little cocoa powder, the right amount of sweetness, a contrast of bitterness with the cocoa powder. Are you using lady fingers?

47:59No, I make my own. Obviously. The best bread. The best bread? I think, I mean, I grew up eating bread. Growing up with my mom, my grandma, we used to go to a bakery like two, three, four times a day. So the bakeries in France are small. and they don't they bake all day long they bake every hour every two hours fresh bread coming out of the oven best bread for me it's a bread that's still like hot you can barely hold that crispy like a nice baguette that has a crispy like crust and you break it you see the steam coming out this is the best bread the barely hold metric is very smart yes I feel like if you can have bread that you can barely hold you're not gonna go wrong that's the freshness it's great It's a sign of quality.

48:47And, you know, chef life for us French people, like, it's a couple hours. After three, four hours, your baguette is not good anymore. It goes away. All right. Your favorite American fast food chain? I would say Shake Shack. Yeah, it's pretty good, right? It's pretty strong. The first time I went to Shake Shack was in Madison Square Park. The original. This was the original. They only had one at a time. Yeah. I stood there. I actually took my parents to there for like 45 minutes, which I hate waiting in line for. Because the man with the cronut. Particularly rich statement. I see. I mean, people don't like waiting in line.

49:22Some people do, but I don't. And we waited 45 minutes. I had this burger. I was like, that was so good. So juicy, so well done, simple. But I also had the Schroom burger at the time. Oh, yeah. The Schroom burger, yeah. The Schroom burger. That was really, really good. And I remember eating it. I was like, I want another one. I don't want to go back in line. I know. I know you need to order four. All right. A few more questions here. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now? I'll go back to Cafe Carmine. I think it's like, I think it's like right on exactly what I love. A mix between like French and Italian cuisine, but done like perfectly.

50:01Every single dish, well seasoned, well cooked. The ambiance of the restaurant is like just beautiful and stunning. The service is great. You know, the wine is good. You can't go wrong. Your favorite bakery in the world that you do not run yourself? Tough questions. Yeah, it's a taste check. I would say Pierre Hermé in Paris. Pierre Hermé is, you know, one of the father of like the revolution of pastry in Paris, in the world. I think he has like amazing tastes when it comes to textures, flavors, great execution, all his products. You can't go wrong. It's just like, it's great every time. Favorite cookbook?

50:46Strangely, it's still like the Escoffier. Oh, no, it's not strange. I mean, you've looked at it, I'm sure. I grew up, you know, with French classics, learning about the French classics. Escoffier is like one of the founders of like French cuisine. I always go back and look and try to understand the history and tradition of why we were cooking this way back then. And there's a lot of things, you know, they didn't have that we have back then that we have today. There's a lot of technology and tools, but it's amazing just to look back and to see the simplicity and the innocence behind the style of cooking that was like pure, all about the quality, about the ingredients, and about like a good execution.

51:30Your favorite sandwich? Alan Tico. Do you know Alan Tico? I don't know it. Tell me about it. It's an Italian place. They just opened in the U.S. not so long ago. the opening a lot of places had an amazing sandwich with pistachio paste and mortadella that combo that was fresh good bologna baby simple very simple love that combo I gotta check out the sandwich is it pressed bread is it hot bread what's it like it's just a focaccia it's just a half that's it that simple Dominique Ansel thank you so much for joining This Is Taste thank you for having me here

52:17Emma and Pavido, welcome to This is Taste. How are you doing today? Great, thanks. It's great to be here. Before we get into academic travel abroad and our partnership with Taste Travels, I wanted to get a sense, what have you been doing this fall? Where have you been traveling? What have you been eating? Well, I'm just back from a fabulous trip to France and Spain, to Bordeaux and Buritz with our group, The Dinner with Friends Abroad. We had the pleasure of the company of Nancy Silverton and Ruth Reichel, and it was an absolutely fantastic week. Delicious meals from start to finish. Many Michelin-starred restaurants.

52:55We ate at the number two restaurant from the top 50 restaurants in the world. uh glorious really beautiful locations some fantastic things that chefs are doing in that part of the world I'd say the Basque country was a real discovery for me um beautiful autumn weather um so that was a really fantastic trip that I've just got back from back home um I haven't been out much recently to recent uh restaurants my Italian husband and I are part the large Italian community. So there's a lot of great cooking and eating going on at home. But here in DC next week, we're all looking forward to the opening of Nancy Silverton's new restaurant.

53:40So I shall be going down there next week. And I'm hoping to make it to New York before the end of the year to check out Stefano Secchi's new restaurant. So that's kind of a little bit of where I've been and where I've been eating in the past. Oh, wonderful. Ful Stefano is a friend of the show and I haven't been to his new spot. So you'll have to let me know. Going back, you work with Nancy and Ruth on those trips that I've spoken to them about. And I think it must be honestly so cool to have a chef and a writer together in country. What's it like when you travel with these professionals? and how are your travelers responding to having, you know, Nancy and Ruth at the dinner table?

54:29That's pretty special. It is extremely special, I would say. We're driving along the bus, you know, each morning on our way to a visit, to a lunch, to a, you know, producer of some artisanal project. and Nancy and Ruth just start talking about their love for food or why we've selected going to this location, food trends they're seeing, the ideas that they've picked up from that meal yesterday that we had and things that kind of Nancy's going to take back with her for future, you know, experimentation and cooking at home, it really is like sitting around the table and chatting with them. They're so humble, they're so kind, and they're so generous with their time.

55:23They move around talking to everyone at all the different meals. And it's just like traveling with really a group of friends. At first, people who join the group are a little bit sort of starstruck that they're traveling with Nancy and Ruth. But by the end, we're just old friends sitting around sharing, you know, love of food and love of different recipes. It's a real pleasure to be traveling with them. That is really cool to hear. And I draw some parallels between your experiences with Ruth and Nancy and what we do at Taste Travels. You know, I just returned from Puglia in Naples with Mauricio Leo, author of The Perfect Loaf and just a terrific bread baker.

56:08And similarly, you know, we would, you know, start the trip. You know, everyone's kind of like, wow, Mauricio's here. Everyone loves his work. But by the end, you know, we're swapping emails and getting into WhatsApp and we're becoming friends. And I love that you mentioned the kind of chit chat on the bus because similarly, you know, that's what our taste travels are all about. We have a great, we have great moments for impromptu Q &A and discussion about big topics, topics, you know, on the bread trip, a lot of bread talk, but also just general food trends. And I think that's a big part of what Taste Travels is about is kind of having this living document.

56:48You're kind of living the research. And, you know, you mentioned Nancy is opening a restaurant and she's doing research. Well, similarly, Mauricio was writing a cookbook. So we were out scouting some locations that he'd photograph in future trips. And really, I love that travel is so interactive. And so I think we'll get into a little more about Taste Travels. But I wanted to get a little bit of history about ATA, who are, you know, your company, the company we work with here at Taste. And, you know, what do you do? And what's a little bit of the history of the company? Yeah, well, Academic Travel Abroad has been around for 70 years, developing educational tours for many American organizations around the country for licensing brand media companies.

57:41Our oldest and partner is the Smithsonian Journeys, for whom we've developed a myriad of educational travel programs around the tour. But other current large brands that we work with are Chautauqua Institution, who have a growing travel brand, the Great Courses Journeys. And now more recently, we're really moving into the food travel space, as you alluded to. So Taste Travels, of course, being one of them. We also work with Bon Appetit Getaways. We work with a number of wine magazines and a number of star chefs, food writers, influencers, if you will, such as Nancy and Ruth. I've been with the company for nearly 25 years and I lead the creative team of program designers.

58:33So we put together those itineraries working with you, with Maurizio to create really a travel experience that speaks to you and the audience that you are gathering. And then we liaise with our many partners around the world to make sure that we create this unique bespoke experience. And I would say that, you know, no itinerary that we create is the same. We are putting together something like 80 to 100 a year for different organizations with a very different theme and focus each time. Yeah, it's really a good point about how unique these trips are. And I fully agree that no trips are similar.

59:22And, you know, we've done three here and I'll get into some of those trips that we've already hosted with Taze. But let's zoom out a little bit. And, you know, I have plenty of thoughts here, but I'd love to get a sense from you about organized travel tours, so to speak. You know, I think long these tours have been have had somewhat of a stigma. There's certainly not all tours are created equally. And I think some of our listeners are quite savvy travelers and love traveling independently. I'm very much in that boat. But on the flip side, I'm so, so in on going on organized trips. I think there's so much value to having somebody do the prep work.

1:00:07And it's literally days and days of prep work. I will respond after you speak. But I want to get a sense of why organized travel is so great, not just for, you know, the retirees who I think many assume that's what organized trips are for, but for younger folks, because I think our trips, we've seen many young people on it. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think with any organized travel program, we take care of the hassle. We create the itinerary in conjunction, as I said, with you, with the leaders of the program, the hosts, for something that's going to appeal to their audience. And, you know, Everything is tailor-made for that trip.

1:00:51We ensure that the pace of the trip works well, that it's going to make for an enjoyable experience. We book all the elements, including the harder to get reservations at certain tables or private visits at certain locations. The opportunity to meet with chefs, where the chef comes out and talks to the group because they understand that you're so interested in food. or maybe spending time with local people and having time in a private home. But, you know, very focusing sort of more specific, even more specifically on the food tours, as you've experienced, it's really all about bringing people together who are interested in the same thing.

1:01:34On my recent trip, we had a lovely young couple. They weren't even from America, but they spoke very good English. in their 30s, I'm guessing. And they were as thrilled to be with the group as the couple in their 80s. And they all just got along sharing time around the table, enjoying these exquisite meals together, sharing recipes, memorable food moments. And I think on the trip last year with Nancy and Ruth, we had a 22-year-old. He was adopted as the token grandson by some of the people, but we had a full range of ages. And there was, everyone was mixing. Even, you know, the older couples that were traveling together, they decided that they wanted to sit on that table and chat to Ruth at this particular meal.

1:02:28And, you know, the wife and the husband had had fun chatting to somebody else. So he was sitting on a different table. I mean, it's just about all mixing in together and enjoying the experience together. And I think it was Narizia that said after your recent trip to Puglia, these are my kind of people. You know, chatting to people about, oh, where do they, you know, buy such and such a product? Or I really like this mozzarella because, or I love so-and-so's recipe for, or, you know, all of those things. Those are the conversations that are going on at the table. And people are, to use a pun, insatiable for it.

1:03:13So they really enjoy, it doesn't matter the age that we're attracting, everyone gets on well on these types of trips. And the other thing I think I will pride ourselves on is that we organize everything, but we also have great staff on the ground to make sure that everything goes smoothly. Putting out the fires in the background that half the time you're not even aware of and just generally making sure that everyone has a great time because that's what we're trying to create, a unique, incredible experience. Absolutely, Emma. I think that you've brought up so many great points, and I'll just add a few more.

1:03:50I think for us on our trips, we spend several months preparing the itinerary before we even announce it and release it to travelers. And really, that work is finding extremely unique experiences. You know, we went and visited with Franco Pepe outside of Rome and, you know, we got a private tour from Franco and a tasting of all of his pizzas. And, you know, having that FaceTime with Franco was, I would say, very unique for any travelers. If you were just visiting on your own, you probably wouldn't even get to meet the guy. And, you know, for me, the value and why going on these trips and I'll have to say from the jump, the price is not for everyone.

1:04:32And that's true about lots of travel. Some have to save and some don't. But if you're thinking about investing and going to a location, having Taste and ATA create an itinerary that's super unique, there's a lot of value for very busy people. And I think a lot of people want to go and to Puglia and Naples and visit the sites or go to Barcelona. But, you know, figuring out all the reservations, all the hotels, you know, getting the transportation if you're going out of the city, it can be a lot of work in the prep. And then once you're there, of course, you mentioned, you know, there's things that go wrong with travel.

1:05:14That's just indicative of travel. And honestly, when you have a staff of three to five on the ground, sometimes more assisting with the trip and doing it in a way that feels like super seamless in the background, there's a lot of value there. And I think younger people are starting to see this as, you know, they plan European travel, Asian travel. And, you know, lastly, the cost of travel in Europe is crazy. crazy. And if you've tried to book your own, you know, flight, hotel, car rental, and then guided experiences, you know, guides, you know, it really starts to add up if you really do crunch the numbers.

1:05:56And then, of course, as I mentioned, all the things that can go haywire are there. Now, of course, we all have independent spirits, so we want to do our own thing. But I think more and more people are seeing that having an organized trip done by a cool in, you know, in the know operator. I'm just seeing we get notes all the time when we're launching these trips about what the trips are like. And biggest question is, is like, is it going to be feel like a bus tour? And yes, we use buses, but it's not the bus tour that your grandmother took to, you know, I'm not going to slight any location to, you know, to Athens.

1:06:36When we went to Athens with Susie Carache and Susie is an incredible partner and we were doing a trip next year. We're going to announce it soon. You know, we were on buses, of course, we have some travelers. But when you once you get off the bus, you're going into these very small restaurants, you're you're getting an expert guided tour of Athens, a walking tour, lots of walking, you know, always pack those comfortable shoes. And I just think more young travelers and travelers of all ages are seeing the value here. Well, yeah. And I mean, I would add further that, yes, we use buses to travel around in, but it's not sort of regimented that the buses must leave at three o 'clock after the lunch.

1:07:20I can't tell you how I'm quietly in the background going, we need another half an hour here. I cannot interrupt this amazing lunch experience. We'll just shift everything in the background to make sure that we just get everything happening later in the day, but everyone can continue to enjoy their lunch. So there's a lot of tweaking and adjusting. It's not sort of any sort of regimented thing that we must fit in these four visits and then get to this location and continue with the day. And the other unshoppable thing is really who you're traveling with. If it's with Taste Travel, it's with you and Maurizio or Susie or Jenny or whoever the cookbook author is on the trip.

1:08:13Those are, you know, there's a hard to put a price on that, being able to share that love of food and knowledge about food with you. people. Oh, absolutely. A great point there about just having cookbook authors. I'm an author, but also with like, you know, Jenny Rosenstrock, we're going to Mexico City in April and just having, you know, all of that wealth of information available at any time is really special. I'll share a quick bus story. It was it was it's pretty remarkable. We were in really rural Crete with Susie Karache and myself this past June. And we were on a bus and, you know, great coach.

1:08:55And we were going to a sheep farm to have lunch. And it was harrowing getting up these mountain roads. And, you know, I'm pretty confident from speaking with the farmer and really the people who worked on the farm. There has never been a bus up those roads. It was the first time they ever had a bus in their mountain village. And like you said, we certainly are always taking the temperature of the trip and sticking around, getting, sometimes a farmer or a producer wants to share more and give a more detailed tour of the operation and really just go over and just do a question and answer session.

1:09:42And so, yes, we certainly can delay And like, it's very challenging for our on the ground organizers at times to stay on schedule. But that's what travel is about. And I love that it's not like show up at the thing at three or you don't get to go. I mean, it's like the people think they know tours. But man, I was blown away when I started working with you guys and how bespoke and custom these are. Well, that's great to hear. Yeah, that's what we try to achieve. So I want to ask you, Emma, where are you traveling in 2025? I'd love to get a sense of the locations. And of course, not just with taste, but some of your other partners.

1:10:26And I'd love to get a sense of what's popular right now. Maybe some destinations that are less known, but you're seeing people have interest in them. And really tell us what's interesting the most. And then I'll share our trips for next year. We're planning the two trips at least to Italy with Maurizio Leo again to northern Italy, thinking fresh bread, panettone, throw in some great gelato, fresh pasta making with Alessandro Spinzi in Bologna, parmigiano, eccetto balsamico. You know, what's not to love about that sort of cooking experience? uh we have a new mediterranean location for the mediterranean dish and susie caraché i don't know whether we're allowed to reveal the location yet we're we're coming soon we're very close to announcing that yeah so that's coming very soon other food tours that we're working on uh we have a number of new trips planned for a new partner sur la table we um Sulatab travels.

1:11:32We're going to Puglia with them, Northern France, Bordeaux. Those trips focus on the dining experience, cooking classes, but also kind of the art of hospitality, visiting local ceramic producers, linen and tableware producers. Bon Appetit Getaways is returning to Piedmont with Stefano Secchi after a fabulous sold-out tour in 2023. We have a new partner, the Brain Health Kitchen, which is going to Sardinia, talking about healthy eating, general lifestyle in a blue zone. We have another Bon Appetit trip to Thailand with Nok, who I know was on your show a couple of weeks ago. That trip sold out. We're in the process of rapidly trying to put another trip together because there is great demand to travel with her to Thailand.

1:12:28That's a very personal trip curated by her. We have a trip to India, which is not specifically focused on food, but there is obviously food is a very much an element of the journey and traditional Indian food at that. In terms of other destinations or other trips, we see a lot of continuing demand for Italy, France, Cuba is returning as a big destination for us. Emerging destinations, Ghana, Japan, Korea. We're also seeing a lot of sort of second city travel, you know, a real push to visit places other than Paris, Rome, London. and that general desire to sort of be more sustainable and not returning to, like, top destinations.

1:13:25And I think that really speaks to ATA's sustainability initiatives, but also, as with all of our food tours, that desire to kind of go local in terms of, like, where we visit, but go local with the food, locally sourced produce. and so I would say that those are some of the things that we're looking out for in 2025. That's exciting that you're working with Stefano Sacki. I love him and I'm sure the trip to Piedmont with Bon Appetit will be a huge success and I love hearing that you're going to Korea. You know, I of course would love to do a trip to Korea with some of the folks featured in my books with Dookie Hong, and maybe we'll work on one of those for a coming year.

1:14:13And I'm going to add about the Jenny Rosenstrock trip. You know, it's really a special trip. You know, Jenny is, of course, she's not a Mexican chef. And really, the trip is about discovery for all. And Jenny's visited before. But really, when we go on these trips, it's about having a lot of really interesting interactions on the ground. And that trip was also heads down to Oaxaca. And we learn about Molay and have a cooking class down there. And one thing is about the trip, and you mentioned reservations, you know, we're going to be at Pujol with Enrique Alvara and Antrimar with Gabrielle Camara.

1:14:50So we will have some really great restaurant experiences on that trip as well. And, you know, we're working on getting the chefs there, you know, those two chefs, Enrique and Gabriella, you know, have a lot of travel, but we're hoping to have them there when we when we visit if they're around. And really, it's about getting into these exclusive spaces and having really meaningful interactions that go well beyond the meal and have a lot of conversation about the cooking. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Emma, let me ask you, is there a single meal from one of your travels that you point to and you just you just can't stop thinking about it?

1:15:33It's like the single meal that blew your mind. It's very hard to pick one meal. I just had so many amazing meals on this recent trip to France and the Basque Country. One meal from that trip would be the final lunch at Aix de Bari. um you know the number two uh restaurant in the world where everything is lightly smoked um so simple but so delicious um we had lightly warm smoked caviar uh even the ice cream was made with smoked milk and then a beetroot sauce um and then we had smoked milk uh goats butter I mean, it was very unusual, but so simple and incredibly delicious. But it was also about the space.

1:16:28We were in the middle of nowhere in this remote village. And then the space where we ate was so calm and simple. And it was the autumn sun was shining in. It was just such a beautiful, calm, relaxing and just delicious meal. And then we all met the chef afterwards. So we went into his kitchen and you expected some wild kitchen because he's smoking everything. he's this calm humble quiet pretty shy chef who just does his thing quietly every day in the kitchen and then you go in after the meal and it's clinical and clean and organized it was sort of a juxtaposition to what you imagine a you know something that features just so much grilling and smoking.

1:17:32But so the meal was delicious. I guess that's the most recent meal, but I have so many others. I mean, Emma, listen, Estabari comes up a lot on the show. A lot of chefs and food writers will cite it as one of their favorite restaurants. I'm extremely jealous. I've always wanted to go to this restaurant. I think probably going back 15 years, I've been thinking about trying to get a reservation there and really to get into the kitchen at Estabari. certainly that's not the typical move for a visitor and to be able to have some face time with a chef that's that's incredible and I I wonder did you have do they put a steak on the menu late in the late in the lunch yes we did have steak yes yeah I always forgot about that because we'd had so many other different smoke things on the way we'd had sea bream and shrimp and they were all just little tasters.

1:18:26And then we did get to the steak. That's like their famous move they've done in the past. So they end the meal almost like dessert is a steak, which I think is such a fun play. And really one day, one day I'll report back my trip there. Emma, let me ask you about packing for trips. I am always thinking about this one traveling myself. And I think our listeners can really get some great info. So give us one item that you always, always pack that maybe is a little unexpected when you're doing international travel, especially for food. And then what is an item that maybe you always bring but you never use?

1:19:06It's like we all have that. We always bring that thing that, you know, it just takes up space. I'm not sure. I've learned to cut down how much I travel with over the years. The one thing I always travel with has nothing to do with a food tour. I always travel with my flip flops in a swimsuit because I always hope and I usually find a pool or a beach or a hotel spa where I can run in for 15 minutes between things. The things I usually take that I don't need are too many, a pair of shoes, another pair of shoes. You need just comfortable pairs of shoes. And I would say like even dining out in some of these smarter, you know, Michelin starred restaurants, even in Europe, anything goes these days.

1:19:57So you don't need to dress up as much as perhaps you used to. Um, so I probably take, you know, more smarter clothes or another pair of shoes that I don't need because I just need the comfortable shoes. But my biggest tip is always to leave enough room in the suitcase so that I can bring something back. I'm always bringing something, olive oil, wine, or my recent discovery was these piment peppers from Espelette. I'll just add, for me, I feel like one thing that we sometimes discount, especially when traveling outside of major cities, is we sometimes overpack outerwear and pack way too many T-shirts and lighter shirts.

1:20:45I think when you're traveling, especially on a taste travels, you're going to have great hotel laundry service. And especially in most markets, it's more affordable than the United States. And I just feel like there's nothing better than having some fresh clothing on the road and have it nice and folded in that special hotel way. So, you know, overpacking and also to your point, like I think, you know, having too much fashion centric gear clothing is maybe for some not needed. And, you know, you're there to experience it for yourself and maybe not have to pack your best looks. That's just me. That's my thing.

1:21:23I think an eye mask is something that I know eye masks is not for everyone. But man, you can sometimes be in hotel rooms where there's light leaking in and get used to that eye mask if you can, because it really will spare you some restless nights if you can get used to that eye mask. That's always been my go-to. And also a good umbrella. Sometimes when you're traveling and when you're in the more rural areas, finding a really nice umbrella can be harder than you think. and so just pack that great umbrella because you never know when you're going to need it. No, those are great things. I would agree.

1:22:01I also, I do agree with the eye mask, yeah. I need it for the flight, but nothing else. Emine Pavido, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me on the show.

1:22:17This Is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.