497: Flipping Mayo Haters with Molly Baz

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0:31When you say mayo, people think plain creamy white stuff. And for me, mayo is a vehicle for flavor. I am constantly, when I'm home, stirring things into mayonnaise to make it more interesting than just fat eggs and acid.

0:51This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

1:23updates, including what restaurants she's enjoying in Los Angeles. We also talk about her jump into the CPG game with the launch of a new line of flavored mayonnaise, Ayo. Also on the show, Clayton and I taste our way through Molly's new mayo, Ayo, to see if the dill pickle is really hitting. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:53Molly Baz, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you doing? Oh, I'm so good. Thank you for having me back. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. I'm a little crazed at the moment, but it's a good craze. Absolutely. Well, we're here to talk about a brand new product you have and about really your vision with products in general, because you, I think, have such a cool point of view and you're very selective, obviously, but you have a real eye for doing cool things. So we'll talk about that. Great. Can't wait. So but before we get to that, what's good in L.A. restaurant wise? Are you are you able to hit up any local spots?

2:31I always like to get your take on this. Oh, where am I eating? This is I feel like this was maybe my answer the last time you asked me, but I'll tell you where I ate last night. And it's not a new spot. It's my it's an old standby. My forever go to Houston's is my favorite restaurant in L.A., which is kind of sad. Um, but they just deliver every time. It's something about the, um, chilled martini glass swap out mid meal that just keeps me coming back. Um, so I go there probably twice a month. Um, but then where else have I been eating? I, um, I eat at this place called Yang's Kitchen a lot in Alhambra.

3:17Have you been there? I was there two weeks ago. Um, thank you for bringing that up. It is honestly one of my favorite restaurants this year. I was able to go for the first time. It's so good. Why do you like it? I feel like it had like a moment a couple of years ago where I was like hearing about it all the time and it was really hard to get into. And then for whatever reason, people talk about it less, I think because it's maybe just kind of far out. But they're like the respect for ingredients, the quality of ingredients that come out of that kitchen is so high. and I am forever in search of like a Japanese breakfast plate that I really like in LA.

4:00And this is not a Japanese restaurant, as you know, but their market breakfast plate is about as close as I have found to it, which comes with like a bowl of multi-grain rice and a soy egg and a piece of marinated and grilled fish and some pickles. And like, if I could eat like that every morning for the rest of my life. I feel like I'd live long and happy. That you can also swap in eggs and like steak if you want. Dude, the scrambled eggs were, like doing a relatively high volume restaurant, I just like the quality of ingredients, totally agree. But just like the technique is like clearly as good as it gets.

4:36It's an amazing place. And the Wiser Melon soft serve, did you get to try that ever? I missed it. And everyone was like, did you have the soft serve? And I was like, I've had so many others, but I think I like skipped that month or something. Yeah. So I didn't. I love that. I love Yang's Kitchen is on your list. We're going to be out there in December doing some recording with them. So I'm excited to go back. Love it. Okay, so let's jump in and talk about the launch of AO. And in general, first off, before we get to this new launch, how do you look at collaborations? And I think you've been really well positioned to do collaborations just with your rising profile and your books, but you clearly are not just chasing the bag, as they say.

5:21I think you have a really good eye, as I mentioned at the top, and it's just really cool. But how do you think about them? It's a great question. I feel like there's a lot of kind of just opportunities that come my way through many different channels. And I sort of put them through this litmus test of like, there are a few pillars to my brand, I guess we'll call it a brand, but to my work that I do in the world that are really important to me. And those are teaching people how to cook and feed themselves or feeding people directly. Like those are the two most important things to me in my work.

6:01And so my cookbooks obviously fuel the teaching people how to cook category pillar there. And then my wine company falls under the category of feeding people or rather hydrating people. And when I do like events and restaurant pop-ups, that falls into that category. And so I kind of look at all collaborations as like if they don't fit under one of those main goals, then they're probably not worth my time. And so there's been a new category now that has like recently sort of or a new pillar that I've sort of fallen into, which is around like motherhood and breastfeeding, which at the end of the day is also feeding.

6:44So you could argue falls under that category of feeding people. But those are kind of the things that are really important to me in my life. And so I look at collaborations as an opportunity to go deeper into one of those. And if not, it's probably not a good fit. Really, really well said. And when you're taking that first meeting or that Zoom with a possible partner, what's the question you always ask? I like to suss out how collaborative a brand is and how much they want to hear my ideas. I've gotten into a lot of conversations with brands where they come to me because they want to work with me and they want my creativity.

7:25But then they've got such a rigid and strict sort of marketing plan in place already that it doesn't really open things up for me to use to do what I'm really good at, which is like, think about where the crossover between us could be and what feels really authentic to me. And so I'm always it's maybe not a question, but I'm always trying to suss out an opportunity for like, can I really be me in this partnership? Or am I just pretending to be someone that I'm not? Yeah. And I feel Crate and Barrel is a great example. I bought a few pieces from that. So I look at your your vibe every day in my home kitchen.

8:05And if no, it was my gift from my wife, Tamara. So props to her. but like with that collab you know clearly Crate and Barrel has an aesthetic you kind of you kind of like broke it a little bit with with your product line when you walked in that Crate and Barrel store and everything was either like ivory or gray or some other muted neutral tone and then there was just like the one Molly Boz display that was like basically looked like it had like dropped acid. Yeah, that was a perfect example of a brand that I think like followed through on the promise of bringing someone in to collaborate because they actually wanted their ideas and weren't trying to like fit them into what they thought the prototype should be.

8:57And Crate & Barrel was in their creative team and their creative director were so incredible about basically they were just yes people through and through. I was like, I want to do seafood towers and everything to be primary colors. And they were like, yes, yes, and yes. And I think that the collaboration was a great success because of that, because people saw it and immediately were like, oh, that's Molly Boz's line. Like that makes sense. And so more of that. Yeah. Are you going to re-up with them? I mean, it feels like that was successful. and and like looking at that collab did it did it do what you wanted it to do it did definitely like I still just like you just said like I do I have people who will come up to me and be like I love your salt and pepper shakers and like they're in my kitchen and I don't know if we'll do another one we we had talked about it at one point I think that for them like like if I'm putting my crate and barrel hat on and I'm on their team I'm kind of like okay that was a great success.

9:58Now, how do we do that another hundred times with another hundred really incredible creators? Because like sort of the effect of bringing in this like totally new energy is so powerful. So if I were them, I probably would be like, let's repeat that now in many different sectors with different individuals who bring something new. I got it. Yeah. I think you're thinking big, which I like. I mean, you definitely want to expand with them. I think the trivet is my favorite, by the way. That's my guy. All right. So let's talk about the topic at hand. AO, you've just launched this Mayo. I've admittedly not tried it because I think it's under Lock and Key somewhere in New York.

10:41We'll get you some ASAP. We have our first line of samples ready to rock. So I will get them to you. Well, I can't wait to try them. And I think it's a really, really cool choice. And first off, just as a category, I do not think you will push back when I say that America has some pretty fucking good mayo. So why launch your own mayo? You're right about that. There are some brands that make some pretty fucking good mayo. And I love mayo. And I sort of sussed out and discovered what I think is like a little white space in the market that involves mayo, which is that like in every other condiment category under the sun, like your hot sauces and your mustards or whatever, every condiment category has really expanded and opened up to like new flavors.

11:40And mayo has stayed pretty strictly mayo. And there are, of course, a few brands that are making like a chipotle mayo or a sriracha mayo. And like it's starting to experiment a little bit with like, what else can we add to mayo? But for the most part, when you say mayo, people think plain creamy white stuff. And for me, mayo is a vehicle for flavor. And it's an incredible condiment because it's fatty and creamy and viscous. and it adds moistness and is basically the sauce on a great sandwich or in a great salad dressing. But it doesn't need to stop there. And I am constantly when I'm home, stirring things into mayonnaise to make it more interesting than just fat eggs and acid.

12:30And so it kind of got me thinking, like, how do we blow open this category that's been in its lane for so long and start adding shit to Mayo and making it even better and even giving it even more personality. And so that's where AO kind of was born. And we are launching a plain creamy Mayo that I think is really good. And I'm excited for you to try it that I think will compete with the best of them. But that's not really the focal point of this brand. The focal point of this brand is like, I believe that people make mediocre sandwiches at home, and it's not their fault by any means. It's the fault of the fact that like, it kind of takes a lot of work and a lot of tricks to make a really great sandwich.

13:18Like, you got to have really great pickles and and chilies and condiments and spreads and pestos and marinades and the right vinegar. And it's a lot. And people aren't willing to spend that much time on a sandwich because it's a sandwich. Whereas when you go out to a really great sandwich shop, they've spent a lot of time prepping out all of these like special condiments, ingredients for your sandwich. And that's what makes it superlative. So the idea behind these, as we call them, mayo gone wild, is it's like all the flavor and all of that artisanal technique that you find at a sandwich shop thrown into one bottle of mayonnaise that you can just slap on a piece of bread, pile up with some turkey, cheese, lettuce and tomato.

14:07And like you have a truly mind blowing sandwich at home. Yeah, you are absolutely tapping into the Zeitgeist too with these flavors because I think one in particular sticks out is dill mayo because I feel like I've never seen a dill mayo sold commercially. And the other one is just Giardineo, which I'm imagining is just, it's like that Giardiniera, right, vibe happening because again, I haven't tried these products. But tell me about those two and then the other ones you're launching. Yeah. So the Giardineo, which we actually call hot Giardineo is the name of it, was the first flavor that I developed.

14:43And it was sort of like the impetus for this entire brand where during the pandemic, I was at home. And like I said, I was busy stirring shit into mayo. This was while I was developing while I was working on my sandwich podcast, the sandwich universe. And so I was making a lot of sandwiches at the time. And I was stirring a lot of shit into mayo and just seeing where it took me. And one of the first things I grabbed was a jar of Marconi hot Giardiniera, the Chicago style hot pickled vegetables. And I was with my manager at the time. And I remember distinctly being like, dude, why is nobody putting Giardiniera in their mayo?

15:26Like, we literally looked at each other and we're like, Giardineo is like a billion dollar business. and it stuck with us. And so when the opportunity to develop this line came around, that was the first SKU that I worked on. And so it's exactly like you said, it's got Chicago style Giardiniera, finely chopped, but in like pieces that are sizable enough that like you feel the texture. And that's one of the big components of this brand is that it's not just smooth and creamy. it's also packed with texture and pickles and little pops of acid and so it's it's meant to lend more than just fat to a sandwich um so it's got that it's got calabrian chili paste oh that's what i was hoping for because i was like calabrian chili needs to be in this in this combination and that's the best nice um it's got a bunch of acid both in the form of like vinegar powder and, and traditional vinegar, um, a little bit of sweetness and some spices, some other things.

16:35So it's really like, that's, that's like your hot sauce lovers, Chicago beef lovers, uh, skew. And then we've got the, as you mentioned, the dill pickle mayo, which yes, is tapping into a zeitgeist moment of everything is dill pickle flavored in the world. And, um, um if i didn't think it was so fucking delicious i probably wouldn't tap in um but it's an undeniable flavor combination and because of like all of the juiciness and the acid and the brightness and dill pickle it's a perfect foil for mayonnaise so that one it has lots of little dill pickles chopped up um it has and that's like egg salad i'm thinking like egg salad like put that in egg salad yeah put it in egg salad put it in tuna and like throw it in a can of tuna fish and stir it up and you have like dill pickle tuna salad it's so good yeah um and or just like slap it on bread and throw some turkey on it because a dill pickle mayo slather turkey sandwich is an undeniably good time and then the third flavored skew that we have coming out at launch is um our degenayo which is something that people are probably more familiar with.

17:53But again, it's like, why aren't there more Dijoneros on the market? We all know what it is. It's a mashup of mustard and mayonnaise. And ours has a couple different kinds of mustard. So there's pickled mustard seeds in there as well as Dijon. So there's little pops of texture from the pickled mustard seeds. And then we also have added a bunch of chopped cornichons. So like little French baby cornichons pickles. And so this is kind of like your French country mustard, mayo, cornichon moment. It's incredible on a ham and cheese, like baguette sandwich. Oh, man. Yeah. And like we know that one brand, obviously.

18:35But like how it sounds like just texturally, this is why this is your differentiator. Like you have pops of seeds and you have like actual texture, which I think with a nice ground grain mustard, you get right. Right. Totally. That's what it's kind of the whole thing here is like, you get the creaminess, but then you also get something to bite into like it's a replacement for a pickle. There are tons of chopped pickles on there, you're getting little juicy pops of vinegar as you eat through your sandwich, there's spices in there, there's little calabrian chili peppers in some of them. So they're really meant to be like a textural experience as much as a flavor experience.

19:15Man, I'm so, I can't wait to try. I'm going to come on the show and definitely give it a little taste test. So did you come up with a name? So the name AO, we were like, I don't know, very early on in concepting. I had just started working on the development of the recipes. This was actually about a year ago. I think it was at a Halloween party a year ago. We were sitting around with a bunch of our friends. We were like, guys, what do we call our Mayo company? and one of my friends who's like kind of very soft-spoken and under the radar his name is Noah he just kind of like quietly was like ayo and we were like I'm sorry what did you say and he was like ayo and we were like I mean we're done here that's obviously like it sounds it's a name that sounds like it belongs in your fridge and it's like it feels like the type of um name that will be around forever.

20:13And that's what we were looking for. And it's obviously a play on the word mayo. And it's like a nod to like, that dorky thing that people do when they're like, hey, oh, and it's just like, it feels like a rallying title. I love it. And I think it really speaks to a generational change in mayo. And like, clearly, this is like a new mayo for a new generation of male lovers. And in some ways, I know you're not like targeting like a group of like millennial whatever, but it sounds like this is a signal to the industry. And I'll get to a question with the industry that there's a new mayo in town. Yeah, like watch the fuck out, y 'all.

20:53I love that. All right. My question about the industry is so, Molly, this is like like your from my read. I don't know all your products, but it seems like this is like your big debut in CPG. like and like you know we cover cpg quite a bit on the show we've had many founders on and and like the world is insane and like getting into grocery um is complicated and of course you have partners to help you with this but how do you feel about entering the grocery store with a product oh i am so excited to get to the place which i know will not happen overnight but I hopefully will happen within the next couple months, years, whatever, where I can walk into like my average ass grocery store or go visit my parents upstate and walk through the aisles and next to the Hellman's and next to the Heinz, there's AO.

21:48Like that will be the absolute dream moment for me. And like you said, I'm not doing this alone. One thing that I know and I've learned early on in my career is that it is unwise to try to take on everything and to try to be everything at once and fill every role at once. And so I am like the first person to empower or employ someone else to do something that they're better at than I am. And so I have a business partner in this, David McCormick, who has a lot of experience in the CPG space and launching brands in grocery, worked on the grocery side. And so I am hoping that he will shepherd us in to the grocery aisles.

22:38But until then, AO will launch online for starters, and then we'll be in, you know, a lot of those cute little shoppy shop gourmet markets until we figure out our big grocery play. And then I also really want to pursue a food service play down the line because like I walk into a Jersey Mike's and I'm like, where's the ale? You know what I mean? Like there's the, there's the oil, there's the vinegar, there's the yellow mustard, there's the mayo. Like there is such an opportunity here to have like a couple of AOS SKUs and a subway or a Jersey mics. And I'm excited to see whether that kind of happens.

23:26Yeah, I mean, you know, food service is like key for any condiment. I mean, just looking at the scale of it, of course, with the media that you can provide and just like that general boosting of the product, it makes a lot of sense to partner with a brand, with a franchise. I think about Sir Kensington's a bit. And, you know, if you don't think about them, that's cool. But it seems like Sir Kensington's maybe crawls so you could walk a little bit because like that was a company that took on obviously ketchup but also they had their own mail lines but like they failed ultimately um and we don't need to re-litigate their history it's not your role my role either but like it seems like this is a challenging category to break into yeah i think that the the thing for me anyway the thing about like ketchup and where that company started is that i actually don't think it's humanly possible to make a better ketchup.

24:19I fully agree. Fully agree. So that for me was like the first mistake, I guess. And I wonder had they come into the market with a different condiment, whether it would have been more successful. But I distinctly remember being like, why is someone trying to reinvent Heinz? Like I was kind of fired up about it. And whereas with mayonnaise, I think that like Like there is a lot of brand loyalty for sure, but also there are people who like different brands of mayo for different things. So like, for example, I've historically been a Duke's lover. I didn't grow up on it because it wasn't available in upstate New York.

25:00It was Hellman's in upstate New York, which is best foods on the West Coast. But for like a simple sandwich, I like a Duke's. But then there's a time and a place when I'm seeking umami that I reach for a QP. And so I feel like there is more flexibility in the mayo space than you may think there is in terms of like room in people's hearts. Yeah, no, it's a well said, Molly. I think you're absolutely right. I think that we are way more open to experimenting with with mustards and mayos and having a couple in our in our fridge then you know of course 57 which is everyone loves that you know I want to ask you you know people don't like mayo there's like a lot of people and we they come on the show a bit is this the mayo for the folks who don't like mayo I honestly think so I really do and so part of like what I want to do with the content around AO is try to flip mayo haters into mayo lovers.

26:06Because I get it. I think that there's something like psychologically disturbing about the idea of oil, like emulsified into eggs into this like weird white creamy substance. But I think that when you start to introduce acid and spice, pickles, texture, and other ingredients, it's a bridge back to a safer place for people. You know, mayo haters still love mustard and pickles and hot sauce. And so this is, I think, going to be a good gateway drug for those folks. I mean, listen, I just gave you like the ultimate softball question. And, you know, I did that because I knew you would come to play.

26:57And I'm continuing the metaphor. But I think like listeners out there, it's such a good point about like mayonnaise. It can be quite gross, like truly, if you just if you think about it. But when Molly just said about acid, about bringing flavor and like adding fat to nonfat, like to vegetables and bread, which doesn't have a lot of fat is food science. And that creates, you know, a real moment of marriage between, you know, I'm not getting into lipid science here, but like, it's like how good food tastes better. So you did a good job. Nice. I love that answer. Well, yeah. And I always say to people like, would you ever eat a salad without dressing on it?

27:41No. Would you ever? Actually, I do have one friend who does, but that's a very particular case. Would you ever eat a bowl of cereal without milk? Probably not voluntarily because food needs moisture and like lubrication. It needs sauce in order to sing and to like move around your palate in a pleasant way. and mayonnaise is just trying to be out here like serving that purpose that's all that's all it's trying to do and you're not supposed to eat it straight guys like that's the other thing i think people who don't like mayonnaise have maybe like dipped their finger into a jar i mean i'm not i'm not saying that's bad but like that is probably not the best use of mayonnaise yeah maybe a fresh aioli with some like delicious hot fries is a dipping moment but like however these these These Ayo waskews are incredible as dips because they have so much more going on.

28:36So I have absolutely dunked French fries into the hot Giardineo and dunked Lay's potato chips into the dill pickle mayo. And it's phenomenal. Yeah, no, I'm totally with you. And I just think like it sometimes can be just out of the like the jar of whatever it may be is just not great. Okay, Molly, I want to ask you about motherhood a little bit. How has new motherhood changed the way you're cooking at home? I know you've been public about having a child, and you definitely are very honest. So I want to get a sense of this. It's a great question. I am learning to let go of some of the rigidity and rules that I have abided by for so long in the kitchen.

29:29And this will actually be a really interesting conversation when my next book comes out because I am working on that as we speak. And it's teaching me so much about like unlearning things in the kitchen. because as someone who kind of got my training working in restaurants, there are a lot of techniques that I hold, have historically held really high and closely to my heart in cooking. And I've sort of had this like upturned nose around taking too many shortcuts because I can't like break free from the training that I've gotten in restaurants. What a negotiation you must make. I mean, you're a restaurant chef, you work in restaurants, and you certainly can't do that every night right now.

30:26And a lot of like my career thus far has been me figuring out like, what is the workaround? What is the hack here that's going to bring like that level of flavor to someone's home kitchen without all of the effort. But like, I'm at this point now with where I'm at with cooking and with having a child that like, I'm taking that to like a whole new level. And it's it into all like, and it's starting to have an entirely new meaning of like, what is really essential here. And so my next book will be a reflection of that, which I'm super excited about because it's so fun to be like this many years into my journey as a cook and still learning or rather unlearning things that I knew or thought that or that I thought were like non-negotiables in the kitchen and so I'm cooking more simply and I'm feeling pretty excited about it well I I was gonna ask you about the book you brought it up and you know I work here at your publisher so I know a bit about it and I'm extremely excited but for the purpose of this interview, what do you want to share about this book?