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Podcast Episode Notes: This Is TASTE - Episode 499: Best American Food Writing with Jaya Saxena
Podcast Overview
- Title: This Is TASTE
- Hosts: Aliza Abarbanel & Matt Rodbard
- Description: Engaging conversations about food, home cooking, and culture, featuring interviews with notable figures in food media and cookbooks.
Episode Details
- Episode Title: 499: Best American Food Writing with Jaya Saxena
- Description: Jaya Saxena discusses her role as the new editor of *The Best American Food Writing* anthology, her selection process, and her journalism career, particularly her work at Eater and TASTE. The episode also features a segment called "Three Things," where the hosts discuss exciting trends in restaurants, cookbooks, and food culture.
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Key Themes and Discussion Points
Jaya Saxena's Editorial Role
- Editor of The Best American Food Writing: Saxena shares insights into the selection process for the anthology and emphasizes the diversity and complexity of food writing.
- Food Writing as a Lens: She views food writing as a gateway to discussing broader societal issues, making it relatable and accessible to everyone.
Changes in Recipe Language
- Casual vs. Authoritative Tone: A shift from formal, directive language in recipes to a more casual, conversational style (e.g., terms like "garlicky") that reflects a friendlier approach to cooking.
- Impact of Media: How platforms like Food Network and Bon Appétit have influenced this change, promoting a more relatable engagement with cooking.
Significant Stories from the Anthology
- Diversity in Food Narratives: The anthology includes stories addressing complex topics such as:
- India’s relationship with beef (Sharanya Deepak’s “India’s Beef with Beef”).
- Baking practices in war zones (a piece from Cake Zine).
- Guest Editor: Padma Lakshmi's contribution and her collaboration with Saxena in curating the anthology to reflect diverse global stories and experiences.
Personal Insights from Jaya Saxena
- Favorite Writing Style: Emphasizes authenticity over trying to please all audiences. She recommends writing as if speaking to a friend to maintain a natural tone.
- Food as a Universal Topic: Saxena argues that food is a common ground for discussing various societal issues, making it a powerful tool for storytelling.
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Three Things Segment Highlights Exciting Food Trends
- The B.O. Boys Podcast: Discussion on films related to food media, including trends in Hollywood screenwriting and the cultural significance of food.
- Seoul Meets Bagel: A spotlight on a unique sandwich creation at "Between the Bagel."
- New Cookbooks: Mention of notable recent books like *Mammoth* by Eva Baltasar and *William* by Mason Coile.
Recommendations from the Hosts
- Little Flower Cafe: A local café in Astoria known for its friendly atmosphere and delicious offerings.
- Zingerman's Gift Boxes: Highlighting the exceptional quality of gourmet gift options available, especially for the holiday season.
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Conclusion
- Call to Action: Listeners are encouraged to explore the anthology *The Best American Food Writing* and engage with the evolving landscape of food media. Feedback on the podcast is welcomed through reviews on platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
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Final Thoughts This episode of *This Is TASTE* highlights the dynamic nature of food writing and its ability to engage with a wide array of cultural and societal issues. Jaya Saxena's insights into her editorial process and the collaborative effort with Padma Lakshmi illuminate the rich narratives that food can convey. The discussion provides a platform for listeners to reflect on their own experiences with food and writing.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Resi is a digital platform that connects restaurants to restaurant lovers by elevating dining experiences, providing original industry content, and helping to fill some of the country's most exciting dining rooms. Because restaurants have always been more than just places to eat. The amazing world of restaurants is just a few taps away in the Resi app and at resi.com.
0:31To me, I see food as this great framework for talking about all these different issues. And so I think that food, given that it's something everybody has to engage with, everybody has to eat, that makes it, I think, such a great lens through which to see all of these other stories. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Every year we await the release of the best American food writing. It's a sharp collection of works from around the world, of food media, and always brings surprises. This year was no different, and the collection's new editor, Jaya Saxena, tells us about her selection process.
1:14We also dig into her own journalism career. She's one of our favorite writers at Eater, and we talk about some of her memorable stories as well as some of her work on taste. It was so great having Jaya into the studio, and I hope you enjoy this conversation.
1:37Jaya Saxena, welcome to This is Taste. How are you? Good. Thank you for having me. Well, this is a long time coming, and I really appreciate you being here. You've written a little bit for Taste. You wrote this memorable story about kiwi strawberry. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about what you learned from that. Oh, my God. I mean, I think it's just fascinating because that was a flavor that was so prevalent when I was growing up. Like in the 90s, everything was kiwi strawberry flavored. And it feels like it's not around anymore. So I remember just being really curious about, like, who decided to put these two things together.
2:10And then it got really into like the history of kiwi in the U.S. and how farmers were trying to make it a popular flavor because it was a profitable crop for them. So, you know, just sending kiwi to every trade show being like put kiwi in everything you're making. And Big Strawberry picked up the. Yeah. Strawberry was like, no, let's do it. This works. And then, you know, I think and then it was the rise of Snapple, too. And so when you had Snapple everywhere and they decided to do it, then it just took off. What do you think about the flavor profile? I mean, are you down with it? I still am. I feel like it has this really good, I mean, it's so sweet, but it's got that tanginess to it that is almost like the pink starburst flavor.
2:55I don't know. It's a very nostalgic flavor for me, but I am always down for more kiwi strawberry stuff to exist. I say bring it back. I want to see more of it. Maybe bring it into the alcohol phase. Oh, yeah. That would be really good. Yeah, some spiked kiwi strawberry. Kiwi strawberry, like White Claw. Like, why haven't they done that yet? Guys, you got to do it. Well, we're going to get into your latest project, which is editing the best American food and travel writing. You're the series editor. So every year you're now going to be reading a lot of food media or maybe not called food media.
3:25We'll get into that. I love – I'm such a fan of your writing, and I want to talk a little bit about some of that. Now, you wrote a piece just a couple weeks ago titled, When Did All the Recipes Get Garlicky? Which I think is really, really prescient. And we're in book publishing here. So we're a bit of a, we're guilty of using that term. But I love this line. Before it was a joke, a descriptor like leaky was a revelation. Casual yet informative. Fun and inviting. A rebellion against the authoritative tone of recipes of the past. So what do you get into in your reporting about this change in recipe naming convention?
4:04Yeah. And so I was really fun to report because I feel like I just got to look back on cookbooks and food media, you know, the rise of food television and then online media and see what these, you know, recipes were being called, you know, what people were naming them in order to get attention. And you really do see the shift from, right, this authoritative tone of saying, here is a professional chef. Here is someone who's gone to culinary school who knows what they're doing and they are going to tell you what to do. They're going to tell you how to do it right. To, I think, people got a little bit sick of that and people didn't want to be told what to do with maybe such force.
4:48And then I think that Food Network, Food Television, and then as we moved online, like Food YouTube, especially like Bon Appetit YouTube, the attitude was much more like, this is a friend. This is somebody, you know, who's very good at what they do, but is it's a lot more casual. We're hanging out. We're hanging out. On the Internet. Exactly. On YouTube. Yeah. And it's encouraging these sort of parasocial relationships that are important in the age of social media and things. But it really is like we're hanging out and I'm just going to describe this to you the way that any friend is going to describe this to you.
5:24I'm not going to say, here I am, this professional chef on my pedestal telling you the only way it has to be. And so something like garlicky, leaky, you could imagine, you know, someone just in your living room describing what they're eating, saying something like that. Yeah, like not on a major platform like YouTube or in a cookbook, you know, chiseled into stone forever. Yeah. And so it's bringing that energy into media, into everything. And it was really revelatory. I think it was something that people are like, oh, this is so fun that a place like Bon Appetit, a place like, you know, a physical cookbook or the New York Times is using this really casual language.
6:06Now, I think it tows the line between being casual and corny. Yes. Right. And I think we all want things to be authentic and feel right in our in our in our worlds. And everyone, you know, some people think it's cute. Some people think it's corny. I mean, how do you when writing for Eater where you're you're a correspondent and you've edited, how do you split that difference between cool and corny when you're talking about this massive audience of different people? Yeah. I mean, you know, at a certain point, you just make peace with the fact that whatever you do, like some people are going to find what you do corny.
6:43Like if it's a big audience, there's always going to be people, no matter how you write, that aren't going to like whatever tone you're using. And, you know, it is what it is. you know I think I do think that a trick that I have when writing anything is when I feel really stuck I do imagine all right how would I just say this to a friend of mine how would I describe this to my partner instead of the big official audience of Eater and then that tends to loosen me up and that tends to make the writing flow a little easier. So I do love bringing the casual into writing. But I do think I guess I know personally for myself when I am turning a little too much into what is it?
7:32The 30 Rock meme, the like, how are you doing, fellow kids? Like if I'm using slang that I personally have never said out loud in my life, like if I am speaking in a way that I'm like, you know what? This is just not actually how I speak. Yeah, it's a really good reminder as a reminder to our audience to mid is is banned out of my mouth on the show via my wife. We will never use that again. Yeah. Let's talk about the idea of food writing. And really, my first question is you you you you have to read a lot to cover the best food writing in America. But you also write in the introduction, a colorful introduction, that there is no such thing as food writing, which I think is a really smart observation.
8:15What did you mean by that? Yeah, well, I think that food writing, to me, I see food as this great framework for talking about all these different issues. I think one of the things I always think about is that, you know, if I go up to somebody and I say, like, oh, I write about the economy, everyone's like bored. That's right. Sorry to the economics writers out there. But like that is sort of not a fun hang, not a fun hang. But if I if you put writing about the economy in the framework of grocery prices, this is something that affects everybody's life. This is something that, you know, right during inflation, during lockdown, everyone's scrambling like, oh, my God, eggs are ten dollars.
9:02Like this is the story that everyone's talking about. And that's an economic story, but that's also a food story. And so I think that food, given that it's something everybody has to engage with, everybody has to eat. You know, you may never go to a restaurant in your life, but you have to eat. You may never cook a meal in your life, but you have to eat. But that makes it, I think, such a great lens through which to see all of these other stories. Love that sentiment. I fully agree. And I think it's why we have many listeners on this show because we're, quote unquote, a food podcast, at least as a category on Apple.
9:40But of course, if you listen to the show, you know that we cover economy, we cover politics, we cover culture, art, maybe the show industry. I mean, we cover a lot of things. Yeah. Jaya, you are the series editor of the Best American Food and Travel Writing, which means every edition you hire a guest editor and you have Padma Lakshmi as your guest editor. I read her introduction, which is beautiful. It's incredible. It's an incredible piece of writing in its own. Yeah. I love it. It's worth it just for that, truly. I agree. It's quite lengthy. She worked on it very hard. So how did you and Padma come together to decide on these stories?
10:18Yeah. I mean, it was so exciting and also so intimidating because I'm a huge fan of hers. And so when I, you know, when we learned that she was on board to be the guest editor, I was like losing my mind. So basically, you know, with the series editor, I'm doing like the big, big compilation. I am reading all the submissions. I am going out on my own, trying to find the best food and travel writing and just making, you know, the world's longest spreadsheet. And as you said, doing so much reading. And from that, I sort of compile my own long list of what I think are, you know, the most notable pieces.
10:56And then from there, you know, the guest editor chooses their favorite 20 or so. But also, Padma and I had a lot of conversations about what we wanted this to look like, you know, even from that long list, what stories we maybe felt were still missing, general subjects we thought were still missing. because, yeah, I think we were both, you know, really had the same idea that first and foremost, we wanted this to be great writing. And great writing can take so many forms, right? That can be a funny blog post. That can be, you know, a well, deeply researched report. That can be a personal essay.
11:38Yeah, it can be so many types of writing, but it has to be, I think, really stunning writing. And then we also were like, we want this anthology to reflect all the stories going on in the world. You know, we have pieces about Palestine, about the Ukraine. We have a story about the Titan submersible disaster in there and this desire to sort of travel literally to the bottom of the ocean and what that means. And so I think that we wanted to show that, right, food and travel writing, these are not necessarily, this isn't a separate leisure category. This is writing that speaks to all of the things, the really important things that are happening in the world.
12:25Let's get into some specific stories. Sharanya Deepak's story, India's Beef with Beef, originally published in The Baffler. Let me ask you, what drew you to her work here? Yeah, well, I mean, I'm a huge fan of her writing, but I think that this story, especially for a non-Indian audience is so important to read because I still think that there is this understanding of India as you know a solely Hindu country and a solely vegetarian country and you know I think people have these vague ideas of India's relationship with beef but they don't understand that it's much more diverse and much more complicated than And I think the stories a lot of non-Indians or even Indians are told about it.
13:10And, you know, speaking to sort of these big issues, we have this moment right now in India where this Hindu nationalist government has really taken over and, you know, fueling a lot of racist sentiment toward Muslims. And then also the Christian community who eats beef and then also to lower caste communities. And so I think it just felt really important to get a piece in there about the actual relationship with beef that this country has and also unpacking this idea that it wasn't even always taboo within Hinduism. Hinduism has its own complicated, nuanced relationship with eating beef. Yeah, I was just in India in July and seeing the Modi government use food as a weapon is apparent when you speak with restaurant owners and chefs, especially outside of the Hindu majority.
14:13I'm glad this topic is coming to the surface and Sharyana is able to highlight in The Baffler. Yeah. And I mean, again, I think like the writing is just so extraordinary in that it's such a compelling story. But right. The idea of politicians using food to divide people and to further their political agendas. This happens every day. I mean, as we're recording this, we have the Republican Party using the fear of Haitian immigrants eating pets as to fuel their agenda. And so this is something that that is part of fear mongering in politics. Yeah. Completely. And it proves the universality of food to your earlier point that we eat food two to eight times a day, depending on if we're feeling good or not.
14:58And really, it is it is what everyone needs to think about at least once a day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Intel Eleven's piece, Notable Sandwiches, number 75, Grilled Cheese. She opens up the line in writing about the grilled cheese sandwich. I find myself with little to offer but praise. This is from a sub stack of a collection of essays and thoughts about sandwiches. And and really poetry plays a center of central focus in this piece. And I love I want to ask you a couple things. First, you're featuring a sub stack, which is cool. Yeah. I love that. And second, what drew you to this essay in general?
15:38Yeah, I mean, I love Talia's Substack, but I also think that, right, when people think of great writing, they often still think of these legacy publications. And it's not like we don't, you know, there's representation from The New Yorker in there. There's representation from, you know, magazines, newspapers, all these, you know, places where you normally find it. But in the current media landscape, we have so many extraordinary writers who are freelance, you know, who do not have a home in sort of a traditional publication and who've built their own homes for their writing. And so I think that looking to Substack, looking to zines, looking to more worker-owned media collectives, this is so important for people to know that great writing is found there, too.
16:32but this piece about grilled cheese I was really when I was making the long list I was really crossing my fingers that this was going to be you know this was going to make it through because I think this is just such purely beautiful writing about a grilled cheese you know this really simple everyday sandwich that of course everyone loves a grilled cheese I think it's popular for a reason Um, but, you know, it just takes you through this idea of like, that you shouldn't deny yourself simple pleasures and you shouldn't deny yourself joy when you have the opportunity to find it. And, you know, it just made me so I was, you know, nearly in tears by the end of reading this.
17:19I was like, I needed to hear this. And yeah, so I just thought it was an extraordinary piece. Speaking of zines, you feature Cake Zine, which is Eliza's publication she runs with Tanya Bush. How did you come to Cake Zine and why feature this piece? Yeah. Well, being in food media and also, you know, just a big fan of both of theirs, like I had learned about Cakezine, have had a lot of friends who have contributed to it. And so I was on board with Cakezine from the beginning. And certainly, you know, there were multiple Cakezine entries in there. I just think it has some great fun writing. But this was one of all sort of the cake zine submissions.
18:05This was one that Padma really singled out. One, because it is speaking to this current political moment. It's speaking about Ukraine. But I also think it's just such a wonderful sort of slice of life report about what's going on there and that in the middle of a war zone, people still have the desire and the drive to bake. and not just bread, not just sort of a very basic staple for everyday life, but cookies, you know, when you get a chance. Things with deeper flavor or things with deeper design to it to bring these little bits of culture and, as we were saying with grilled cheese, little bits of joy into everyday life.
18:59And I just thought it was so beautiful. And it was just a really fascinating look at how that even works in a war zone. So how do you and Padma collaborate on making the final selections? Yeah. Is there like a long process or is it a single meeting? How does that work? Yeah. So we certainly had a couple of meetings about this going through the longer list and talking through, okay, here are all these amazing pieces of writing, but maybe all of these are too similar. So if we, you know, gun to our heads, you got to pick one. Like, what are you choosing? Or you're choosing, you know, all right, it feels like we have a great list here, but it feels like we don't have a piece about this subject.
19:45So let's both go out and read some more, look around and see if we can find something that really speaks to this thing going on in the world. And so it was a wonderful conversation, I think, because we just got to talk through all these different pieces and what we liked and what we didn't like and really forming a great collection of styles, of sources of subject matter. And I think, yeah, just making a really interesting anthology. So the best American food in travel writing is available now. And really, I want to transition this conversation, talk about your career and your writing. We talked a little bit about the piece you wrote for Taste, but you have such a prolific career.
20:38You have 71 archive pages on Eater, meaning you've written a lot for that publication. and it's kind of fucking unreal. I didn't realize that until you said it. I had never looked at how many pages are there and that is slightly horrifying to me now. I mean, one day in a quiet moment, maybe you have a little time, you're gonna look back at many of those articles and be proud, I bet. I hope so, crossing my fingers. Yeah. So how do you, as a correspondent for Eater, how do you pursue stories? How does it work? Are you mining the world in front of you online and off and landing on pegs? Are you being assigned pieces from your editors?
21:22How does this work? Yeah. I think it's a real combination. One thing that I love about Eater is that there's a great sense of collaboration with things. And we all just love food so much. So we're constantly talking to each other, constantly bouncing ideas off each other. I feel like one of my favorite ways to write is when I just have a really, really vague idea of just being like, I want to write something about this in general, but I have no idea what that's going to look like. I actually don't have a pitch or a thesis. I just have a subject. And we'll get into it in talking about what people find interesting about it, what they don't, you know, what angle we could approach it from.
22:07But yeah, it's a healthy combination of assignments and things I come up with myself. And I think at this point, you know, I have been working in and out of food media basically my entire professional career, which is about 15 years now, which is wild to me. But I've been at Eater for about five and a half years. And so when you're just steeped in food at that point, I feel like, yeah, it's just such a wonderful place to be because I feel connected to so many other writers, so many other people. and so I really just try to keep my eye out for any great stories which really as we were talking about with food writing encompassing so much I do feel like I just get to write about different things all the time yeah listener Eater's great for the maps does it the best we love the maps everyone uses it but you know go to Eater.com read the articles read the articles please read the articles you know read the no for real I mean this is a semi-serious question I mean, in this day and age where attention spans are kind of fleeting and there's a lot of ways to get, quote unquote, food media, food content.
23:25Do you find it challenging just to get people to read even 800 words? Yeah, no, absolutely. Because I think it's something where, you know, especially everybody now is really on, you know, getting their content through vertical video on TikTok, Instagram, things like that. And so there are so many places where you have people taking well-written articles, you know, not just at Eater, but truly anywhere. And you have somebody on TikTok regurgitating those or just sort of reciting that in 30-second minute long clips. And that is where a lot of people are then getting this information. You know, I'm not on the audience team and social team.
24:12I wish I had better ideas about strategy. I guess maybe this is slightly delusional, but I have to believe that good writing endures. I have to believe that good writing finds its audience and finds the people who appreciate it. Maybe it is not as wide of an audience as it once was. But, you know, when I see something like the garlicky piece, you know, I saw it being picked up in a lot of sub stacks. You know, when I saw people talking about it, then I'm like, OK, I'm not nuts. I was on to something here. You know, this is something that people are interested in. But, yeah, I think I think that there is still an audience for it.
24:53I think it's just a matter of reminding people that it does live somewhere. You can go to a place and actually get this sort of fully agree. And again, just like check out Eater dot com, just like read some of the articles. And I agree fully. I think good writing endures. And we have the same ethic here. You know, we put a lot of time into our writing and really the audience is really varied depending on the week, how it's delivered. I mean, we really use our newsletter, reminder to subscribe to our newsletter. And then – but really it's hard with vertical video being just so prevalent and so ubiquitous right now.
25:31Yeah. And, you know, I think it's something where I don't necessarily want to bash any particular medium for how people like get their information. Agree. But I want to figure out how to connect those things. And again, I am so not an expert about this, but I feel like there has to be a way to connect social media and this great art of writing or great art of long form video making, great art of, you know, other visual styles of creating things. yeah I think there has to be something there but I think it is you know I guess maybe a side note like it is in TikToks and Instagrams and Twitter's interest for you not to leave their sites they want you to stay on there which is tough when you're on your own website domain and really fighting every day against them I want to talk about a couple specific stories that you wrote speaking of journalism one is that it's a piece titled restaurant math isn't working uh jaya let me ask you why does it feel like dining out is so expensive right now yeah i mean there's a million different factors um i think on the restaurant side you have prices that have just continued to go up for every single thing that it requires to run a restaurant rents going up, insurance going up, individual costs of ingredients going up.
27:03One of the people that I interviewed for that piece was talking about how the cost of nitrile gloves that you use in the kitchen went from$70 a case in early 2020 to then after the pandemic started over$400 a case. And those are necessary to run a kitchen. But he was saying, you know, I can't tell my customers that I had to raise prices on the menu because the price of rubber gloves went up five times. And so you have all of these sort of hidden costs that restaurants are dealing with. And then on the customer's side, you know, everyone's dealing with the same problems. Like our rents are going up.
27:47Our grocery costs are going up. Often wages have not gone up to match that. And so I feel like it is a constant conversation at Eater that whenever we're going out to eat, which we do a lot, and if we want to try to recommend restaurants, it feels really hard to even make a recommendation because you can say the food was outstanding. I had such an amazing time. But the bill at the end was, you know, really expensive, even if it's just two people. And so I can't afford to become a regular at this restaurant. I can't afford to eat out as much as I want to. Yeah, you laid it out really beautifully there.
28:33Cost of goods are just escalating. And really, we have this food culture that is growing. There's more interest than ever in restaurants, but we can't afford it. So there's a lot of friction there. And you get a sense that there's a restaurant idea or concept that can kind of become a little more, I don't know, affordable or just like something that can match this culture of inflation. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's really I mean, you certainly are seeing more counter service restaurants and things where the idea of a full service restaurant where you have a wait staff coming to you, you know, that costs money.
29:16It costs a lot of money to pay someone fairly for that labor. So I feel like you're just going to start seeing a lot more restaurants trying to figure out, like, how do we work around that? How do we make some choices where we can still offer great quality food and great quality service? But maybe it's not a full service sit down restaurant. Or maybe we're doing more of an all-day cafe thing so we can capture people at multiple times a day for multiple meals. Or, you know, maybe more restaurants going vegetarian if meat is too expensive. Really, really, really good point. There's definitely economic reality when going plant-based or even vegetarian that we need to embrace a little more.
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29:59And it's delicious food. Yes, absolutely. So you wrote in Punch a really fun piece. Let's maybe draw the line at Hot Dog Martini. I like that a lot. And I love punches to edit there. Let me ask you, what were you saying in this piece? Well, I think that, you know, similarly, the way that, you know, we go out to eat a lot. We also tend to go out to drink a lot, those of us that drink. And I love a good cocktail and I love a novelty cocktail. I love a fun one. But it feels like martini culture really went off the rails. how so i mean i think that you just saw people getting really excited about slightly flavored martinis you know i think it first went from a real embrace again of the dirty martini then you maybe saw pickle martinis and espresso martinis sort of these two sides of the equation in terms of um martinis with a specific flavor profile behind them uh the tomato martini then is something that came up using, you know, I think tomato infused vodka or clarified tomato juice in there.
31:07And then from there, you really had people continue with with these ideas and making martinis that right are like hot dog martinis, chicken soup martinis, pho martinis, fish sauce, fish sauce, martini, like all of these. There's one I think there was a ranch martini at one point, like ranch dressing. And I think what happens, like with any trend, you have the people who can do it really, really well. And then you sort of have this middle ground of people that are jumping on a trend without really understanding how to make it amazing. Yeah, the copycat. Yeah, exactly. And then I think we're getting to a point a little bit with some copycats where people see this drink on the menu.
31:55It's fun. You know, I'm not above a novelty drink, but then you taste it and it's not really great. So, yes, a hot dog martini with ketchup and mustard and celery salt and, you know, relish flavors in there. I feel like this is taking away also for me the point of a cocktail which is sort of this great refreshing bracing drink and not a meal in and of itself yeah it feels like an extension of the bloody mary uh you know gone haywire yeah maybe five years ago yes when everybody was putting chicken wings on the mart sliders sliders on the bloody mary you know yeah full chicken and waffles yeah all All of this stuff.
32:42Yeah, I do not need a meal in my drink. I mean, related to this, the Times has wrote a piece about the wet martini is back. Yeah. Which is crazy to think because it used to be just like sacrilege to have a wet martini, but now it's back. I am actually so excited about wet martinis being back because I love vermouth. And I am, you know, I feel like there really is this still macho culture sometimes. I mean, everywhere in food, you find this pockets of it. But I feel like the quest for the driest possible martini felt like such this macho thing. And I'm like, you don't have to punish yourself. This is supposed to be enjoyable.
33:25Yeah, good call. We live in this hyperbolic world in food, this world of extremes or perceived extremes. And really, when you try to find the driest or the most bitter or the spiciest, it's like this is not like the Guinness Book of World Records frat house edition. Yeah, exactly. Jayan, this is Taste We Asked Guest about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire. Fast and Furious taste check. Are you ready? Okay, I'm ready. The best fruit. mango. Okay, what kind of type of mango? Do you have like a version of it? I have Kesar mangoes are my favorite, but I think just really good.
34:01I prefer more like the Indian Pakistani style mango to the Mexican mango, but a good mango, I will trek across the city to find one of those. The worst vegetable? Probably zucchini. I have some good applications of zucchini, but I feel like so often it's just sort of soggy and unhealed. Soggy and wet and and unnecessary. I'm with you fully. The best dessert. The best dessert. I am sacrilegious. I know not as much of a dessert person. So I am one of those freaks that if there's a cheese plate on the dessert menu, I'm ordering that over dessert. No way. So a cheese plate. Oh, the cheese plate for dessert.
34:38First time we've had this on the show. Oh, OK. Yes. Yeah. If there's a cheese dessert, I'm on it. Break us down the cheese plate. Just like broadly speaking, broadly speaking. I mean, I love I remember actually having one in Paris that I really love that was on the dessert menu, but it was just, you know, an incredible, you know, bloomy cheese, some great nuts, some great jam, and then a whole hunk of butter. And then, you know, a perfect baguette on there. So I'm just like, jam, butter, cheese, you know, that's what I will be eating for dessert. I do not need a giant thing of chocolate. I do not need a sundae.
35:10You know, this is what I'm going for. I love that. It's a great call. Okay, the New York City restaurant you visit the most? Probably. I live in Astoria, Queens, so probably the king of falafel in Astoria. I think they've got probably the best falafel in the city. And so I am either physically there or ordering out from there constantly. OK, your favorite slice of pizza in New York. It is not any of the fancy pizza places, but St. Mark's Pizza on the corner of St. Mark's Place and Third Avenue. That was my my childhood pizza place. That's where I grew up going to as a teenager. And that to me is just, I think, the epitome of like a great single slice, nothing fancy, but always satisfying.
36:00I know it well. I lived on Seventh Street and Avenue A for three years in 2002. Oh, my God. Back then, I used to always go there after shows. Where did you grow up? I grew up partially on 10th between 1st and A. Oh, my gosh. We were neighbors. Yeah. And so spent, you know, just a lot of time. I mean, there are some other slice places around there that are gone now. But I think St. Mark's Pizza is just one of those places that I always wound up. And it hasn't closed. And it hasn't closed. I'm so thankful. I love the sauce. The sauce is really good there. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. I really. That's my favorite part about that place.
36:34I'm like, I, you know, sometimes I feel really self-conscious about like, oh, my God, am I right in this? because people have such opinions about pizza, but I think that's a good slice. I think that's a really solid slice. It's a great slice. The ratios are perfect. The dough, it's standard. It's not like 72-hour, but it's honestly the sauce for me at St. Mark's Pizza. Yeah, no, I think it's really solid. Okay, your favorite place for a taco in New York. Ooh. Tough one. There's a lot. We're blessed these days. Yes, no, truly. I do think I have some recency bias in that I did visit Carnitas Ramirez, and I think that they are really incredible.
37:13You know, I think the tacos there are just so good. Yeah, I think that's probably my answer. I maybe have a short memory when it comes to tacos, but they're really good. Great answer. I love that. Is there a cuisine you would like to learn more about? You know, probably in terms of speaking again as a New York City renaissance, I think we are so blessed with a lot of really amazing Thai cuisine right now. And I am certainly, you know, one of my great comfort foods is just like takeout chicken pad Thai. But I really love Thai cuisine beyond that. But I realize that it's more a matter of I go somewhere, I eat something, I think it's fantastic.
37:54And I know less about the history, the technique, the ingredients in there than I feel like I should. So I would really love to just know, you know, regionally what's going on, start cooking more of that myself. Because, yeah, there's just so much good Thai out there right now. That makes two of us. I want to learn more all the time. And speaking to East Village, Somtender, that's the spot for me. Oh, my God. There are just so many good places there. And again, yeah, living in Queens, I'm really close to Elmhurst and Woodside. woodside. And so we have a real bounty that, yeah, I feel like I just need to focus on eating my way through.
38:34Okay, this is a big one. Your favorite cookbook of all time. All right. The one that I certainly come back to over and over again is Classic Indian Cooking by Julie Sani. And that's one that, you know, my mother used when she was first, you know, married into an Indian family and trying to figure out how to cook. And it's really, you know, it's all bangers. I just I have the I have the recipes that, you know, the pages are stained. You know, they're almost falling out of the book that I use all the time. But every time I try to cook something that I haven't cooked from there, it always works. And anytime someone asks me, like, I want to learn how to cook Indian food, I don't know how to do it.
39:21I'm like, this is going to be the best introduction, but also you will keep using it past the introductory phase. It's a great recommendation. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic book. Ider just put out a great fall cookbook preview. There's a lot of picks there. So many good cookbooks in there. I mean, yeah, we are also living in a time where I think we have some really fantastic cookbooks. A recent one that I love is Amrikan by Kush Bouchard. Yeah, yeah. I've been cooking in that a lot. I've been cooking out of Tender Heart by Hedy McKinnon a lot. And then Crumbs by Ben Mims that just came out this fall.
39:59I am so excited to make more cookies out of that book. I'm a fan of all those books. Amrican is a definite recent favorite. I mentioned it a lot on the show. Last one, your favorite sandwich. This is really hard. I know. It's a tough one. You got it. I got it. You got it. You got it. Okay, I think I went to college in New Orleans. I've still got a lot of friends and family down there. You know, S-tier city for sandwiches. Oh, yeah. I think the shrimp po' boy at Parkway Bakery. Yep. Had it. It's great. You know, right. As soon as I say that, I'm like, but these bagels, but this Italian combo, but like all these other things.
40:40But I think if that had to be like the last sandwich on earth I ate, I could die happy. What a great choice. I love that. Jaya, it's such a pleasure catching up. Please come back. I would love to. Have me anytime. Thank you for coming on. Thank you.
41:03We are back with three things. Eliza is on the road. So we've got Clayton here. What is up, Clayton? How are you doing, Matt? I'm really great. I wanted to, you know, have you on to do three things because you know what? you got a lot of stuff in your life. You're really, you host a podcast, The B.O. Boys. It's all about the box office. I love the show. You just had a live show in New York. What's the favorite movie you've seen in the past couple of weeks? The favorite movie I've seen, I know it didn't do well. I'm a big SNL guy. Yeah. Saturday Night. I understand why it didn't do well at the box office because it's very niche and young people don't care about John Belushi.
41:40But I thought it was fun. Who's that? Just kidding. Yeah, exactly, right? I thought it was fun, propulsive. I know that everybody's like, none of that happened. It doesn't matter. They're trying to make something dramatic. I mean, the fact that you would get wrapped up in whether or not they were going to run a Carson rerun instead of the first episode of SNL, and you cut to the real, almost going to run, and everybody was biting their fingers. That was huge. That's when you know your movie succeeded, but we did see it, me and Pat, my co-host for the VO Boys, saw one of the first showings in New York City.
42:15Oh, wow. And so a Thursday night. So everybody was in the bag for this movie. Pop and popcorn, pop and scene. Yeah, it was great. So, and Rachel Sennett, I mean, I think obviously she's somebody who's going to be big. Yeah. Didn't have a huge part in this movie, but she's such a great screen presence. She just, you know, Bottoms was like a great movie. Yeah, it was. I saw that. Waiting to see what she does. I hope there's a infrastructure in Hollywood for her to break out in a big way. It's just hard for for women to to to have big parts, big leading parts. Yeah. Clayton, what's your first three thing?
42:52Well, so I live in Astoria and I wanted to spotlight one. Well, two of my things are going to be Astoria based food. Yeah, man. And I wanted to shout out one of the best bagel sandwiches out there, and especially in Astoria. It's from Between the Bagel, and it's called Soul Meats Bagel. And it's got bulgogi. Wow. Egg, cheese. Wow. Sautéed kimchi and spicy gochujang. Did I say that correctly? You did, and I love how this is set up. It is. And I'm going to just show you a pic of how massive this sandwich is. Listener, it's like we're thinking five inches of bulgogi there inside this. It looks great.
43:40It looks – it's giving a lot of like bodega bagel kind of vibe. I love that. So between the bagels, my go-to for the sausage, egg and cheese, bacon, egg and cheese, whatever I'm feeling like. I usually do it on a croissant. but this is the perfect post, you know, late night out. Maybe you imbibed a bit imbibed. Yeah. And it's the perfect post imbibing sandwich. And it's very rich. I mean, you definitely could make this into two meals. I don't. Yeah. But you feel sort of like a spoiled prince when you're eating it. I love that. It is so decadent. but once in a while I will treat myself to it and it's just so so good I've seen a lot of bulgogi between the buns I've seen the burgers I've seen definitely grilled cheese yeah this is my first bulgogi bagel I've seen and I'm I'm here for a nice one Clayton and it's really sloppy too so definitely you have to get a plate yeah because you're gonna be forking up some of that into that at the end a plate worthy bagel into that uh what's your first thing my first thing I'm going I'm going book right now.
44:50I've been on a reading tear and we've been talking about that a lot. You know, listen, fiction. How about that? Fiction is pretty great. But this is actually not fiction. This is nonfiction. And I read a really terrific memoir from Bruce Eric Kaplan. He is a New Yorker cartoonist. He's also a showrunner and screenwriter. He worked on Six Feet Under. He worked on Girls. He's going to be the showrunner of the second season of That Rabbi Show with Adam Brody. a really accomplished, well-connected screenwriter. He wrote a memoir called They Went Another Way. And the format really struck me as original and fun.
45:26It's all a diary. It's a year of his life, basically. And the arc of the memoir is the development of a show he is working on starring Glenn Close and Pete Davidson. and it is he gets really into the minutiae of what it's like to be a Hollywood screenwriter and have agent representation and I love the way he writes about this painful process of all the rewrites and the meetings and the rescheduled meetings and the zooms and the rescheduled rescheduled and the pre-meetings and really it shows you the work that goes into even getting a show into pilot mode. Glenn Close does not come off well. Pete Davidson comes off, I would say, mid.
46:12This was in the peak of his Kim Kardashian era. He's a talented guy like Pete Davidson. It was really fascinating to see Hollywood's real behind the scenes. I like that Bruce is naming names. He's also literally copying and pasting email exchanges with reps and talking about the specific agents he's meeting with and the executives at Hulu and Disney and all that. He does a little bit of a side note. He does a possible development deal with Kate Berlant and John Early, two comics I really love. And he really gets into the weeds of what it's like mentally to be a screenwriter. And I highly recommend it.
46:51It's a fast read. But why we are talking about this on Taste is honestly, the guy is a great home cook and he's always talking about things he's making. a lot of plant-based cooking. He goes to Vincente Foods a lot, which is a great Brentwood food store or grocery store. He praises Susie Cakes in Brentwood as the best cake in the world. I gotta go to this place now. But yeah, I like Bruce a lot. He has a lot of color and verve with his writing. And if you have any interest in becoming a screenwriter or getting into the Hollywood machine, this is probably a great, I would say a warning sign why that industry is so difficult to break into.
47:27Love Bruce Eric Kaplan. I love a cautionary tale, especially about Hollywood. Sometimes it's more fun to read about the train wrecks than the successes. And I have this, I have a galley of this on my Kindle from NetGalley. Oh, cool. And so now I'm definitely going to read it. It's in my queue. But I will say, maybe let's be a little bit nicer to Glenn Close. If you've lost as many Oscars and as close, I mean, the wife, I mean, just having it snatched away. I mean, how are you even able to have a civil conversation with anybody once that's happened? I know. So let's be nice to Glenn Close. Let's be nice to Glenn Close, a terrific actor, one of our generational actors.
48:05But it just seemed like her notes process didn't really vibe with Bruce's ego. I could see that. These egos kind of are big and bigger and even bigger, bigger. Yeah. Yeah, there's – Bruce is really a talented guy. It's obvious. He's a cartoonist, as I mentioned, and really has a great turn of phrase. And, you know what, Bruce, I hope to have you on the show. It'd be fun to talk to you. I was just going to say we should have him on the show. What's your next three things? Okay, so since we're going books, I want to recommend a book that I read recently by Ava Baltazar called Mammoth. You've heard of her?
48:43Yeah, definitely. um and so currently they have three books published that are all sort of uh connected in a way they're a triptych as you call it this is the third one uh it just got published uh this year and it is my favorite of the three and it's about a uh woman who moves out to the country and i'm i'm this is very very like this isn't exactly what happens but i'm just being very vague because i feel like yeah yeah um and it's not the sort of idyllic pastoral uh way of living that a lot of this is depicted at in other media and other books and what i like about ava's uh her writing style is these books are maybe a hundred pages the longest one is 120 not a wasted word very direct and i know we are living in a time where a lot of protagonists in books are unlikable yeah i feel like this transcends that it's there's it's so loathsome well not not not in that direction direction but but in the sense that there's there can be in a lot of books, the, well, ain't I a stinker?
50:05Yeah. Sort of feeling where they're being provocative to be provocative and they know it and it's a whole performance. This doesn't feel performative at all. This feels like really raw and you'll be reading this book and something will happen and it's done so matter of factly that you can be shocked if you're easily shocked, but also you can sort of understand it because this is the protagonist that you were shown. and I think this is my favorite of the three. I also really liked Boulder and Permafrost. Those are the first two. So I would say check it out if you are a fan of literature. Yeah, me too.
50:44I'm gonna mention one more book I read. I read a horror novel, William by Mason Coyle, which I'm not a big genre guy. I kind of need to be because I think these are such incredible works when you can just dive right into a spooky old house that is like powered by AI and is an AI-based horror. And it's a really fast read. It's under 300 pages. And it was definitely a spooky season read for me. But Mason Coyle's William, check it out. Great. What's your second thing? My second thing is a reminder, and this is 100 % unpaid. I just have a lot of pride. Zingerman's in Ann Arbor, Michigan knows how to do a gift box.
51:25And man, it is my favorite specialty store. in the country. I love their olive oils and vinegars. They have like honestly like 300 products available just in that category. But really I love that they're already selling their advent calendars and they have got a really great one from Paris that I had my eyes on. But I love that you can get a box for in the range between 50 and you can ball and go 300. But they're always gonna send their legendary sourdough bread with it with great reheating instructions so you can get the bread from Michigan and have it at home reheated properly. I love that about their breads.
52:01And you know what? They have this cool mystery cheese box. It's 30 bucks and they're going to give you two half pound wedges of cheese. And why not? You don't know what it is. Give someone the mystery of cheese for the holidays. We're in the holiday season here. And really, we are in the gifting season. It's the gifting season. I'm going to say that. And why not reach for Zingerman's? And again, not paid. I just love Zingerman's so much. Support them. It's a great company. What is your last thing? My last thing is another Astoria-based thing. Ooh, yeah. And I've always wanted a place, right? Your place, your local place.
52:34Yeah, your local. Your neighborhood place. And I found that. Ooh, congrats. The Little Flower Cafe in Astoria. And this is a place that there's so many cafes in Astoria. It's almost a joke at this point that new cafes are opening every other day. Third wave coffee. There's going to be gelato. There's going to be a lot of cool stuff. And there's some really good places real close to me. Balancia, I believe is how you say it. Mighty Oak. Both very good. Little Flower is a little bit of a walk away from me, but it's worth it because they have really good food. They have great pastries. They have a Fernie donut that is really, really great.
53:18And the croissants are really good. Food is really good. They have like a gochujang chicken sandwich. Their breakfast sandwiches are really good. I see a trend in Astoria. Yeah. Korean everything. Look at that. And so what makes this place, though, is the people, the staff, the people who work there. They have a collection of young people that work there that are so nice and delightful that they make you feel so comfortable when you're there. Most of my day when I'm not in studio is being at home, listening to your wonderful voice, Eliza's wonderful voice, other people's voices. And I'm not talking to a lot of people.
53:59Maybe I'm texting, things like that. You're in the lab. You got your headphones on. I'm in the lab, right? And one of the things I love to do is take a long walk after work, get away from screens, and I'll walk to Little Flower. And it's on my way to Roosevelt Island, which is also a place that I love to go. I love Roosevelt Island. So it's like straight shot to the bridge. So I'll stop in there, have a lovely conversation with these people. They know what I like. A lot of them know my star sign. I mean, this is like real stuff. We're like buddies now. Rising water, all the signs. They know it all.
54:33They know it all. They know the chart. Yeah. And so I just think it's great to have a local place. And I think that this place especially, it's very open and warm. The sun comes in. There's not a lot of seating. There's some seating outside and there's a few tables. But I think that's good because you don't have a lot of people working. It's not anybody's office, which I think cafes can sort of turn into people. Yeah, you don't want the laptop zone sometimes. It's a little bit like it feels like you're back at your office. No, you want to be able to walk away from your work. And so I just recommend it highly.
55:06What I'll say, too, is that their hours used to close at 4. Now, Thursday through Sunday, they are open till 6. And I just want to say personally, I think they should still close at 4 all those days because this staff is so wonderful. They're always so personable. But you can tell when you go in on a Friday at 5.30, they're spent because they've spent all their energy interacting. acting service is tough and they do such an excellent job that let these kids go out and have their weekend. Let's take a break. Let's take a break at four. And you shouldn't be drinking caffeine past that time anyway.
55:45We know that. We know that, Clayton. That's great. Go to a Starbucks if you want something past four o 'clock. Let these kids have their lives. They deserve it. They're all doing great stuff. They're in school. They're doing music. They're doing acting. Little Flower, it's my neighborhood spot. I'm glad I get to say it. I feel we all have neighborhood spots like that. Well, maybe not all of us. If we're so lucky, we have neighborhood spots. Yeah. Love that. Thanks for sharing that. Of course. What's your last one? My last one is a recipe from Daniela Galarza, broccolini and Parmesan soup. It appeared in the Washington Post.
56:15I was just home in Michigan and my mom gets our local paper, the Kalamazoo Gazette, support local media. And the Kalamazoo Gazette has a wire service relationship with the Washington Post. So I get to see some of my friends in food media. I get to see their recipes in my local newspaper, which I love. And my mom had clipped Daniela's recipe to make for dinner. She was my mom was so great and wanted to make a meal. And wow, Daniela, your soup rules. It's so great. It's really easy. So I'm going to like take you through it really briefly. And I'm sorry if I'm paraphrasing. I'm going to link to the show notes.
56:51It's two bunches of broccolini and some cannellini beans and some Parmesan rind or some just Parmesan and a little bit of stock. And you cook it down. You add a half cup of cream, which is optional if you want to make it more plant-based, but I liked it a little bit creamier. And you take that immersion blender. Everyone's got to have that blender stick when you're talking about soups. You blend it up. You finish it with some grated parm. And man, what a great broccoli soup using broccolini, not just the standard broccolis. So I loved it. I loved seeing Daniela in the pages of the Kalamazoo Gazette.
57:26and a bonus recipe shout out is to my mom. Mombard, I think, created an exquisite sandwich. I'm so excited to share it. Oh man, what is a sandwich? The sandwich is as such. Bread choice could be anything. She went with a sliced sandwich style sourdough, but it could be on a soft bread. But here's the deal. Pimento cheese, turkey, arugula, and hot honey. mombard wow coming through with a sandwich i i loved it it was perfect for me i love pimento on a sandwich turkey and pimento is a great combination hot honey i was a little bit suspicious of it but wow what a great great sandwich and really for thanksgiving leftovers this is honestly going to be my move wow that's great the pimento cheese i need to put that on more sandwiches.
58:20It's such a great blast of flavor. It's great. When is Mombard coming on the show? Clayton, you are the editor. She has been on the show, but it was, I would say... Was it pre-Me, though? No, I don't think so. Well, you know what? My mom was on the show, I'm going to say two years ago. She was here in the summer. Two years ago. Yeah, I'm going to find that episode. I'll link to it in the show notes. I've got to dig in. Oh, yeah. Definitely throw it in my face. She was on the show. Yeah, clearly a memorable appearance. our editor. I'm sorry, Mombard. Yeah, Mombard, it didn't quite hit the memory bank for you.
58:55Well, what I will say as the editor, this is getting cut. Man, you can cut what you want. I appreciate it. Thanks for sharing your three things. Thanks, Matt.
59:08This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by by Clayton Gumbert, theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.
From the publisher
Every year we await the release of The Best American Food Writing. It’s a sharp collection of works from around the world of food media, and it always brings surprises. This year was no different, and the collection’s new editor, Jaya Saxena, tells us about her selection process. We also dig into her own journalism career. She’s one of our favorite writers at Eater, and we talk about some memorable stories she’s written there as well as for TASTE.
Also on the show, it’s the return of Three Things where Clayton and Matt discuss what is exciting in the world of restaurants, cookbooks, and the food world as a whole. On this episode: the B.O. Boys, Saturday Night is actually good, the Seoul Meets Bagel at Between the Bagel, Bruce Eric Kaplan's look inside Hollywood screenwriting in They Went Another Way. Two more books: Mammoth by Eva Baltasar and William by Mason Coile. Also, a reminder that Zingerman's has the best holiday gifts, Little Flower Cafe in Astoria is a lovely place, Daniela Galarza's broccolini parmesan soup rules, and Mombard has invented quite the sandwich.
Do you enjoy This Is TASTE? Drop us a review on Apple, or star us on Spotify. We’d love to hear from you.
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