502: How Chef’s Table Picks the Chefs with David Gelb

28:41And that's just not, that's not it there, you know? It's about bread, it's about dumplings, it's about noodles. And her relationship with the wheat, and that's actually the cold open there, is as simple as, it's like a love of wheat and like the power of this like flour, you know, they call it like flour food. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, it goes to the origins of culture. The cultivation of wheat has everything to do with how civilization kind of evolved from being, you know, tribes of hunter-gatherers into like larger establishments. And of course, you know, China being like the most massive populist country.

29:17I just think that that's really, really fascinating. And you had the Fuchsia Dunlop interview setting the table with that great context about wheat food. Yes. Which, again, bringing in journalists. I love that you do that. Of course. Just provide the context. Yeah, they really lead the way for us in a lot of ways. Informing the story and their work is absolutely critical. And then we love, I mean, just pulling noodles, just slamming those noodles on the table. I mean, her food's just stunningly beautiful. Yeah, the bing bing scenes of her in her home kitchen. And she looks cool. She's like rad.

29:47Like, I want to, like, totally try her food in London. And, I mean, when you're looking at noodles, pasta versus, like, Asia versus Europe. And, like, that's a conversation that always happens on, like, podcasts. And, like, our Asian noodles is that pasta and is Italian pasta noodles. And there's like this kind of like semantic game that is played. But you decided to use noodles and you highlighted both. Was this ever a challenge to like figure out how noodles are used in culture? No. I mean, the only challenge is that we only have four episodes. Like that's the hard part. Yeah. Is selecting four to represent noodles.

30:30And if you ever look at our, you know, our Instagram posts or whatever, it's always like, what about you know of course what about pad thai like are you reading the comments occasionally you know if we find it entertaining we like to keep our you know our eye on the pulse and you know or our whatever you know what i'm talking about you're you're you're listening to your audience we try to listen to the audience and you know we get emails messages you know a lot of um chefs reach out to tell us about not only just advocating for they're not advocating for themselves necessarily um but you know yes of course it's not a complete it's not all noodles are being represented here.

31:04These are four great stories about noodles. But there's a lot more that we can do. But what I do love about noodles is that they are global. And that's something that really brings people together. I think that whether it's you agree with our selections or you wish we had done something else, it's like just people connecting and having the conversation, I think is like a positive thing. Yeah, and so again, it's like we bring people around the table. It's like noodles is global. You know, people just love that. Great. I love it. The noodles episodes are out now and the new season of Chef's Table is out Thanksgiving weekend.

31:42Definitely check it out. I have some like broader questions about the series because I just I want to pick your brain a bit. And first, like admittedly, is there a grail of yours? Is there a chef that you've wanted to feature that you feel like you haven't quite been able to land? And this doesn't have to be any kind of spoiling, but there's got to like schedules are hard, right? There's got to be somebody. We are very fortunate. We've been able to pretty much because of the ubiquity of the show within the food world. People tend to respect what we're doing and they want to be on it.

32:19You know, some of the chefs that we would have led would be great chef's table chefs have their own shows like, you know, Renee Redzepi would have been a fascinating chef's table. You know, he's been made kind of in his own documentaries about himself. And so that story is being told beautifully. I think that, I mean, the ultimate chef's table story to me would be Paul Bocuse. Because I or like Fernand Point or like I love the history of French cuisine. We got to touch on it in Chef's Table France. Yes. Which is another spinoff of ours in the Twigro Brothers episode or Michel Twigro specifically.

32:57But we get to go back into the Twigro Brothers and to Paul Bacus and like kind of like that whole nouvelle cuisine, which was this huge breakthrough that I think that the world is still experiencing, which is like making the product the center of the thing. You move away from just the technique and the sauce, and it's like, let's serve the thing super simply. And that's – it's a big artistic concept about using the fewest brush strokes possible to convey the idea or to create the picture. And that's something that we're constantly challenging ourselves is to move away from artifice and move towards truth and, like, beautiful storytelling that is, like, simple and elegant.

33:40And I think that that's what a lot of the great chefs have been moving towards. And I think that that was a huge revolution. And also what a personality, what a guy. You know, Paul Bacus is absolutely fascinating to me. And I love looking at the Nouvelle movement and the Drogro episode in that France series, you know, like looking at major culinary shifts and ones that stuck around, you know, like flour leaves the equation completely, almost completely. And kiwis are on the menu, you know, like French Nouvelle was a really remarkable thing that we still feel today. Hey, serving a rare fish, serving a salmon.

34:14Plating food, not having it served table side. Absolutely. Like the art of the plate. Yeah. And so these things, you know, I mean, are just awesome. So thinking about other culinary movements we've seen in our world. I mean, think about New American, what's happened in America in the 90s and using the farm as a set piece. You think about the rise of Asian American cuisine. You know, Asian American cuisine is its own cuisine. And in the past decade, there's been a fully formed new cuisine, third culture cuisine, so to speak. David, do you think about tackling these big topics in series? I feel like you're the one who is going to tell the story the best.

34:54It's all character driven. So it's all about the person. Right. Right. And, you know, whether it's in a category season, I don't know how to call them, theme seasons, or it's a, you know, not standard, an OG chef's table season. Yeah. Yeah. It's all about it's all about character first. You know, that's the most important thing to us. So we don't really tackle subjects so much as we tackle people. The subject matter is interesting when it comes from the point of view of the person. Yeah. So when I talk about Paul Bocuse, you know, I just think that it's like this is a person who is just like just moving this movement forward.

35:29And I just like love that he was an innovator and he was just like pushing it. And then he was using his dynamic personality to kind of bring everybody along with him. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I mean, these are these are profiles. I mean, this is my question was a little obtuse, but I know it's a good question. Yeah, I just think about how Chef's Table has always been able to predict the future in some ways with some of the chefs that are highlighted. Yeah. And you've been well ahead of the curve. I think of like Gagan as one. Yeah. That was like well before any of the major accolades I feel in America.

36:01Thank you. Yeah, that was great. And I always look for you guys. David, like one or two episodes that you just like pops up in your head that just like gives you a lot of joy. I'm not going to ask you about favorites because that would be rude. Sure. We don't ask about favorite kids on the show. But yes, but I do want to ask you, I mean, do you have some episodes that really stick with you? I mean, yes, of course. And I mean, they're specifically the ones that I myself directed, because that's where I'm on the deepest dive into the journey and forming the personal connection with the chef to build the trust to be able to tell the origin story and to talk about their childhood and the traumas and the ups and the downs of the whole story.

36:41um jung kwan immediately comes to mind um episode one of season three she leaves immediately saying she's not a chef and like what i that's the most chef's table thing you can say it's like perfect she's fascinating she doesn't have a restaurant you know she cooks for the other nuns at the monastery and guests who want to come and learn um temple food and and the the the history the connection with nature the um the smells and the sense of the fermentation and the jars and the experimentation that she's doing just like how she has these jars just full like just has these jars just full of kimchi or soy sauce and she came to la um not long ago to do a pop-up at baru which is a terrific restaurant i'm so happy that they're back you know they kind of they disappear and come back in different formats so happy about that um it's like oh here's a bottle of soy sauce this is a 10-year soy sauce you know and you're just like thank you um that was just an amazing experience and like so serene and just beautiful being in the mountains i'm glad you brought that one up that one was important um for i would believe korean food in the world i mean having you know temple cuisine and buddhist food be represented on an international show yeah pretty amazing and she's so funny like that's what's so interesting you think it's going to be so austere and she's disarms you with her with her humor and everything like if she could smell the the the beef barbecue and uh and garlic on us and she's like oh i know what you were up to last night yeah um because you know there's not they don't even eat garlic at the at the temple because it's a distracting you know smell it's like too powerful it sticks with you and it makes you crave more um mossimo botura you know he's is the first episode of the series um he is just so larger than life it's a beautiful romantic story between him and lara and like daring to fight the um daring to fight the um well-established food norms of emilia romana the six like just the high drama of the six tortellini on the plate and the outrage that it caused and stuff.

38:58And then like, it's like opera, you know, it's really, really fun. And, you know, he's a dear friend. And so, and Gagan, as you mentioned as well, and getting to go to India and become very close with him. So, you know, I'm moved by the relationships that we form with our chefs. And chefs are just so generous. They're so lovely, you know, and they have a, they're great. These are great hangs, you know. Yeah, they're great hangs. It's fun. If you wrap production, you probably have a pretty nice time at the end of the production. It's the best job. It's the best job. You know, sometimes I'm just sitting like when I shot with the Roka brothers for Jordi Roka's pastry episode.

39:32There are just moments where it's like, you know, I have multiple cameras going. I have my monitors there. And then some lamb cracklings just appear on the table or like, you know. A little snack for the director. Yeah. And I'm just like this. I feel like I'm getting away with something here. I mean, nothing but gratitude comes. Yeah, your love of food is so clear, David, and I hope our listeners can realize that, that you aren't just a filmmaker, but you're a real lover of cuisine, which I love. I want to ask you about beverage. We talk about coffee a lot on the show, and I feel it's a topic that is global and, of course, wine and beer.

40:11How do you think about beverage and chef? Because, you know, it's not typically the chef's job to manage beverage. Sure. But these are like some of the biggest stories in the world. And they have great characters, great character, great history. Of course. I mean, the vineyards or distilleries that have survived war and chaos and, you know, throughout history, you see these numbers of the years on the bottle of like when it was founded, you know, sometimes hundreds of years old. It's amazing. You know, it's an incredible thing. I think that there could certainly be an excellent show about this.

40:50Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So a chef could be a barista. I think. Well, look, I mean, I think that if you're making something that is that tells a story and is meant to be enjoyed and requires a craft and a dedication, then it's well within the category. Absolutely. I love it. OK. OK. So you're so you're there. You know, let's go. Let's go. I mean, I mean, it's just amazing. I'm with it. To hear that. Because I feel like I agree. And also just, you know, even things like mineral water, you know, things there's like things in our world that maybe don't fall directly in the chef world, but are part of food culture.

41:25Yeah. And I think it's just it's again, it's about character. Yeah. And I think that, you know, we always love a character, especially, you know, these the beverage makers, you know, like the distilleries and the vineyards, their institutions. and you always have a person who's trying to hold up that history and keep up the standards. And that goes back to, you know, George Rims of Sushi. Like, am I worthy of my father to be able to continue this? And, you know, my dad, general manager of the Metropolitan Opera, you know, has won six Emmys. You know, he's like a big deal. My grandpa was the managing editor of New York Times.

42:03And so this is something that is directly relatable to me. and you know in some of our stories on Chef's Table we talk about things like this and then you know that was the big theme of Jiro Dreams of Sushi and I think that a beverage or what is it Chef's Table liquid whatever you want it to be would that would that kind of story would factor heavily On This Is Taste we ask guests about the discerning taste so to close this interview here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check David are you ready? No. The best fruit? Banana. Where's the best banana you've ever had? Where was that? I mean, I'll eat any banana.

42:39I just love bananas. They are just like, they come in their own packaging. Yeah. And never let you down. The worst vegetable? I don't think there are bad vegetables. I think there's bad cooking. I think vegetables that are often prepared poorly. I think that raw celery is a disaster with the strings and whatnot. I think that's also why kids sometimes don't love vegetables is because they're getting like weird celery strings. I think that eggplant is so often cooked, undercooked, and just like can be gross if you do it wrong. But, you know, I mean, with what I've seen and what I've tasted, there is no such thing as a bad vegetable.

43:18If you treat the vegetable with love, you're good. The best dessert? Creme brulee. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Tokyo. How much time have you spent there? A lot. Tokyo has everything. And, you know, the chefs in Tokyo, the Japanese chefs in Tokyo, whatever it is that they're cooking, they go to that country. Like they go to Italy and learn pasta and they bring it back. You know, they go to Spain. They learn how to make pie. They learn pizza and they bring it back. Like they're serious about food. And I absolutely love it. Yeah. Great, great, great answer. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.

43:55Well, it's happening. Somni is coming back. So that's really exciting. That was a restaurant that I was really sad that closed because as far as like a tasting menu goes, that is both interesting and just super delicious. Yeah. Like it just tastes so good. Somni is a restaurant created by Aitor Zabala. It was inside Jose Andres Bazaar in the SLS Hotel in Los Angeles that closed right at the beginning of the pandemic, I believe. And it was very sad because this was a restaurant that was super fascinating. And it had those kind of like super innovative kind of like, like there was a, I remember there's like a chicken skin milfoy, like just like super delicious, weird and different things, but always interesting and always just so good.

44:46Yeah, you nailed it, like delicious. Yeah, and like a tasting course that you feel good afterwards. Like you don't feel like over full. like he just completely understands the he does an art but he also understands the eater's experience like really really well got you so that's coming back um we're excited for the new somni he's been kind of teasing it for a long time it's taken a long time to get it right to the point where he's going to open he's a real perfectionist and that's really really exciting your favorite cookbook of all time i mean i'm gonna go um i love the art of simple food And this is – it's just exactly what it says it is.

45:21I like the way the recipes are kind of prose written in like a little bit more of a prose versus like a strict instruction because it kind of teaches you how to cook. And I was listening to your Tom Colicchio interview, and I was like, oh, I like the way that he talks about how he wants people to learn how to cook without needing the recipe. rather than learning like the principles behind it. I actually ordered both his book and the Jacques Pepin book. Oh yeah. After I listened to it. This book also has everything. Like you go into the index between the Art of Simple Food and the sequel book. You just go in the index, like you go to a farmer's market.

45:58And this is one of the things I love about Alice Waters. And we have an exciting announcement about Alice Waters that I'm going to just tease. Okay. So I've been in conversation with her. You can go to a farmer's market and it's a thick book, but whatever you get there, just pick out the things that you like and just go to the index and you can find a cool thing to do with that. It's really cool to look at a book that way. Yeah. I love that. And that's also why I say, you know, there are no bad vegetables. Like it's just the cooking. She's got a reason to cook one. Exactly. Or a reason for each one.

46:29Yeah, yeah. Is there a favorite recent cookbook discovery that you've had? I mean, I will give a shout out to the, this is not super recent, but I give a shout out to the Francis Malman book, Seven Fires. Seven Fires. Seven Fires. So that's actually – so that and The Art of Simple Food are like my favorite cookbooks. Seven Fires is the best barbecue cookbook. And it's – first off, the photography, everything is beautiful. My mom worked on it. There's a great picture of her in there. And she makes sure that the recipes work. All the recipes work except for the one where you have to cook an entire cow.

47:02Yeah. And that – because the first thing that you need to do is get four strong men from the village to hoist the cow onto the wooden frame. We can find some strong men in New York. We can find some strong men. So it can be done, but it's not really for a solo chef in the kitchen. This is a great book also. And again, I love books where you can look in the index because if you're going product forward, you have a great piece of meat or a great vegetable or whatever it is. You look it up in the index. You can find something to do with it. And I absolutely love that. And then the other funny book that I read recently, funny.

47:32I've been looking through the Escoffier cookbook. Funny in a way of like pretty distant from where we are. Exactly. and just having to constantly look up what the things are. And then you look at a recipe, you have to then go find this sauce and then that sauce refers to three other sauces. Wow. And this gives you the appreciations when you see a French kitchen and you see like, you know, 30 guys in tokes just like going at it and that thing. And you're just like - The labor. It's so intense. So that's a fun read. Last one, your favorite sandwich. I'd say that overall, I love a BLT. I think the BLT is just like a fantastic combo it's just like it hits all the notes you can add a little avocado to it or like some turkey that's the Cali you're talking a little bit yeah you know they don't accept me in New York anymore I'm too soft for New York I'm too hard for Cali I don't know I just love it I love the crunchy bacon you know Jones on 3rd is my favorite sandwich place oh cool I love they do such a clean elegant BLT or club sandwich if you need a little more protein in there.

48:43And then they also have this incredible short rib sandwich that you really have to eat at the restaurant because it like gets a little, you know, you can't get these things take out. The good sandwiches, you gotta go. Have them plated the way they want to plated. The short rib sandwich with like these braised onions and stuff, it's just like so good. And Joan is around. I just crush it. She's the best. She has quite an institution there. They have two locations I believe that there are two the two that I go to there's one on 3rd Street and then there's one in the Valley and the consistency is just remarkable Love that Every time you get it it's exactly the same and so good David Guelb thank you so much for joining This is Taste Thank you

49:32Eliza we're back with three things how are you doing? I'm doing great I'm so excited to talk about our favorite number. Our favorite number in the, what is it, numerical calendar? No, order in all of numbers. In all of numbers. All of the numbers. Three is our favorite. What is your first thing? My first thing is I had a very delicious tea latte this weekend at Ursula in Brooklyn, which is one of my favorite places to go to for breakfast burritos. They do a lot of New Mexican food. But I got a horchata tea latte there that had rooibos, oat milk, vanilla beans, cinnamon, and then toasted rice for that classic horchata vibe.

50:12And it was just perfectly spiced and well-balanced. And I actually got it iced, which was maybe my last iced drink of the year. And I like Ursula for a lot of things, but I just think it was a really delicious caffeine-free tea to have. I'd already had my coffee for the day. And I was chatting with Eric, who's the chef there about it. And he said that he was in New Mexico where he's from and he was at a cafe that had a horchata tea latte on the menu and that it was so bad that he was like, I know I can do this better because there's so many like, you know, nostalgic, amazing flavors in horchata and also it could be added to different teas.

50:46And so I think he really has taken it to the place that it should be at. I'm really curious about this drink because I think chilling it, it would be totally my move. I love a chilled chai variation and horchata is wow. I mean, if you get it, you know, right, it's like truly one of the best drinks. I mean, up there in the canon of all cold things to drink. Yeah, and I think also it does well mix with other flavors like the rooibos, for example. And when I worked at a coffee shop in college, we would do like a horchata with a shot of espresso in it. So I feel like there's kind of lots of different areas you can go in.

51:18What was the Evanston barista scene like when you were there? Oh, I mean, it was not third wave. It was just like learning how to make a basic cup of coffee. I worked at a place called Unicorn Cafe that is no longer around anymore. But I did learn how to steam milk and how to plunge toilets and all of those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Life skills for sure. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely, yeah. What's your first thing? Well, on the coffee train, I have a coffee pick. I was meeting with some folks from the state of Michigan last week, and a couple folks there were these amazing roasters from Traverse City, Michigan, which is in northern Michigan.

51:50Mundo's Roasting and Company is doing extremely high-quality roasting, and they were selling or offering two Ethiopian roasts. One was an anaerobic, one was a nationally processed, and they had also a Costa Rican. And really, when somebody's presenting coffee at an event, I sometimes feel like I'm going to get a really hard roast coffee. I think that's the tendency. And people have been very kind to send me sample bags from time to time. And oftentimes the roasting is not to my liking because it's just too hard and you can't really taste the flavors of the agriculture and the coffee. Well, Mundo's is doing an incredible job in letting that coffee speak for itself.

52:32It's very lightly roasted. They have three locations in Traverse City and it's a cool family story. We've got Jack, Ben, Adam and Father Dan running these three locations all up in Michigan. And you know what? I love my Michigan products. And this is honestly one of my favorites of recent time. Well, I feel like you are really a coffee connoisseur. So if you like it, it must be great. It was great. And it was great to see some Michigan folk in New York. What's your next thing? My next thing is I just want to shout out this Bon Appetit video series that I've been watching a lot of as of late. Back on the BA train.

53:07I know. Well, it's Lucas Sin's Street Eats series. Have you seen this before? Oh my, of course. It is so good. Yeah, I think Lucas is really just such an incredible chef. And the way that he talks about food comes from this like deep knowledge. And so I love watching all of his videos, but especially the Bangkok series, because I'm planning a trip to Bangkok in the new year. And I've just been kind of like pre-gaming the trip while I've been researching by watching his videos. And they're all so great. And I'm going to apologize in advance for my Thai pronunciation. But one of them that I really like is about this kind of street stall called Fikeo Yaorat, which is in Chinatown in Bangkok.

53:41And they do crazy wok stir-fried things, especially the water spinach. They talk about this technique that's called padfai dong, which is a Thai technique of achieving emulsion in a sauce by intentionally splattering a little bit of water with the oil and the smoke. And it creates this like wakke flavor and also this beautiful emulsified sauce. And that's a technique across Asia, but they're doing it in a really cool way on the street. There's also like these fruit stalls that he's going to and eating all these different beautifully dressed fruit, which fruit is a huge passion of mine. And kind of like my only goal for this trip is to eat as much fruit that I can't find here in the U.S.

54:15I remember your trip to Florida when you had the road trip report. I loved that. And I had like a sour sop and all of these things. Mameh, which was really special. So I just think even if you're not planning on going to Thailand, the videos are just so special. And I just wanted to shout them out. I love that shout out. And, you know, Lucas is I'll say something about Lucas. Like he's been in the show a couple of times and please come back, Lucas. Love this guy. What a technically sound chef. He's like got these incredible ideas, but he's really got the skills to back it up. And then when he hits the road and he's got cameras rolling, it's like he's so casual.

54:48It's very effortless. And like I've said this and wrote this in a piece when I profiled him. You know, he's like the next big talent, I would say, for television. And I'm surprised that he hasn't had a big television show yet. It's probably because he's been living in Asia and maybe he doesn't want to do television. How about that? Maybe this is what he wants to do. I love when he's such an educator when it comes to it. And his series MBA is a favorite amount of LinkedIn, the newsletter on Friday, many times. I love that you found it. Yeah, I think he really just has this deep knowledge and appreciation for technique and what different people are doing.

55:21And, you know, maybe this is a little thing, but when he is walking around and he's, you know, talking about the way that like these street food places are set up in the same way of like a guard system in a fine dining restaurant and just talking to all these people working there and calling each of them chef as a sign of respect because that's what they are but i think those little details really just give insight into the way that lucas views food and then you can kind of trust how he's talking about it even more i love it and he's not like food creator guy he doesn't like try to like do it to like be the the the one who's discovered this place he doesn't like give himself a pat on the back which i think is like the tendency for some creators to say like i'm finding this hole in the wall around the hole in the wall i mean he's doing it truly out of a love of cuisine.

56:01Yeah. And he does go to like very established and known spots and talks about like in Chengdu, for example, there's these really delicious, fat, sweet noodles. And he talks about why that one restaurant is so known for that. And I think that is worthwhile. And it kind of gets away from this trap of thinking that you need to be, quote unquote, discovering something. That's a well said. I like that point. It's definitely established places and real like food history there, too. Yeah. What's your next thing? Okay, I've got a Chrissy's Pizza scene report. Oh, okay. I'm curious. Yeah, it's great. So Chris and Brooks Headley are coming on the show.

56:37I think this might run before it. So we'll call this the scene report before the interview. Now, okay, listen, this is like one of the most buzzed about restaurants in New York right now, even though it's truly just a counter pizzeria. It's on Nassau in Greenpoint. And I went on Friday around 4.35 o 'clock and the line was probably an hour and a half long. That's so wild because there's so much pizza in that neighborhood also, you know? Question that came to my head right away. Like, wow, there's already a lot of pizza happening. And, you know, this isn't like the fault of Chris and what he's doing at Chrissy's.

57:11I just think when you have a new pizzeria, I mean, Scars had lines for probably 18 months, two years, probably until the time they moved across the street. And they still have lines on the weekends. Do they? Yeah. I haven't been down there on the weekends in a while. So, I mean, these lines are part of like New York City dining culture. I mean, what a fun date. Just like wait in line for pizza. I kind of like it. I mean, I'm all for it. I can't shit on lines. I mean, I would say for research, we got to skip the line, sorry, to try the pizzas. And actually had the pizza when people were watching us, which was like, you know, because it's like a little bit of fishbowl.

57:41Yeah. So anyways, that was this is how the sausage is made. I had a very short window. He was nice enough to bless us with pizzas, which I paid for. and I'm going to talk about these pizzas because they're fucking amazing and I really think this is one of my new favorite pizzas in New York. Two pizzas on offer on the day. I actually had three. He had a plain cheese. He had a salad pizza which I'll talk about and he had a white pie which he did not try. First up, the plain cheese. He's doing like a 50 to 60 hour fermentation. It's as thin as you want it when you're getting great fermented flavorful doughs.

58:14So he's really doing this great structure where it's like the perfect crispy slice. and he's using a blend of New Jersey tomatoes and Stanislav's from California. So he's using domestic tomatoes. And I think on the salad pie, he's putting fresh arugula on top, pepper hard and grana padano. So that's like his point of view with pizza is like peppery arugula with grana padano. And both pies had a lot of olive oil. I would say more than I usually like. So that's like the one thing that I'm just not. It reminded me of Defara back in the day when Defara used to shower every slice with a lot of olive oil.

58:52It's a point of view. Not my favorite way to do pizza, but I liked it a lot. I have a clarifying question on the salad pie because I'm very interested in salad pizza and it's hard to find here in New York. Was there any cheese or sauce or anything beneath the arugula or it's like the cooked pizza dough and then after it comes out of the oven, it gets arugula, parm and olive oil? Great question. Follow up. Great journalist instincts. my pizza journalist no it was good it was it was a cheese pie bolo so it's basically the the cheese pie with with a little bit of uh with with you know peppery greens on oh interesting okay i like that i find that sometimes in la at like abbott's pizza and some of those classics they don't really have cheese beneath the salad and just the salad on top but i like the idea of eating my cheese pizza with a hearty helping exactly me too i think the salad pie without cheese is you know it's a choice not not my favorite thing it's it doesn't really give me much um you know chris started these pies out of his bushwick apartment and like that's over the pandemic and and really he was doing everything i think via instagram and you know like this mythology we've we've heard time and time in new york city restaurants but for him to go from that pop-up to like a full brick and mortar on nasa in a place in green point that has lots of great pizza bold choice but really i love what he was doing.

1:00:08Great spirit in the pizzeria too. People were really cool who worked there and great music. So I was really into Chrissy's. Highly recommend you checking it out. And honestly, it's not the line moves. I think an hour and a half is probably ridiculous. It's probably like more like 45 minutes. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to try to go on a weekday maybe and see if there's less of a line, but I will go anywhere for a good salad pizza. What's your last of three things? My last thing is not food related, but I just saw the movie Conclave. Have you seen this movie? Oh, man, we were going to do our Oscar thing at the end.

1:00:40Okay, yes, I've seen it. I saw that on Sunday. What did you think? I mean, what a great movie. I loved it. I thought it was one of my favorite movies of the year. Yeah, I really liked it as well. I found it to be just really fun and gossipy. And also just the way that it was shot was so beautiful. I was seeing it with a couple of film people, and there were audible gasps at some of the scenes, like the umbrellas, for example. I don't want to, like, spoil anything. But the way it's shot is so beautiful. And also just having this inner politics scheming about who's going to become the next pope, which is the whole plot of this movie.

1:01:14And the whole movie basically takes place inside the Sistine Chapel, which they recreated for the movie. I went on this whole deep dive about the production design and really like the incredible amount. At first, I was like, how do they have access to all of these places? And then obviously they didn't. And they just replicated them and built them in such a beautiful way. So if we're talking about Oscars, which I don't feel I'm that educated on, I definitely think for like production design, this is going to win because it's just incredible. If you're into like paper and stationary porn, it's truly one of the greatest films of all time.

1:01:48Like what incredible, you know, cardstock they're using, you know, at the Vatican, I must say. That's so funny because I don't think I noticed that at all. Really? And the pens, I was like, wow, the pens are pretty amazing. The hands, the wax seals, certainly the robes and the jewelry and the vaping and all of that. Yeah, it's great to see all the different cardinals come together from around the world. And it's a great way to show, of course, the Catholic Church and how this big decision is made, but how that church spans the world and how culturally Catholics are not all the same. And I thought that was striking and the acting was really good.

1:02:29Yeah, it's a great cast and also just really fun. The discourse around this movie I've been really enjoying. There are a lot of good memes online that are kind of comparing the movie to RuPaul's Drag Race, which I think is a very apt comparison. And I recommend John Paul Brammer, who, as the name suggests, is a laughs Catholic and is queer. And it has this great newsletter just kind of talking about like the delight of like the gossipy tone of this movie and how especially for people who are Catholic or ex-Catholic and have this kind of connection to the church. It's very enjoyable. So that would be a fun newsletter for you to read.

1:03:03Yeah, I would love to read more criticism. I haven't read up on it because I just saw it. And I've been like definitely trying to watch movies. This is like the time of year I always try to go to the theater quite a bit. So I'm like, I feel like I've caught up on some movies. Do you want to do a little movie corner right now? Yeah. I'm just going to say you can find me on Christmas Day doing Baby Girl at the theater. Oh, yeah. Which is being released on that day. And also Nosferatu. So I was like, maybe I'll do a Nosferatu Baby Girl double feature. Double feature. The other movie I really want to see that's coming out is the new Luca Guadagnico movie Queer, which I believe is coming out Thanksgiving.

1:03:36Daniel Craig is the lead, yeah. And I saw the trailer for the first time in the theater at Conclave and burst into tears at the trailer. Yeah, it was touching. I'm really excited. I just saw Challengers 2. Oh. Which I had not seen. I saw that last night. Oh, my God. Yeah. So fun. Yeah, very fun movie. I love how it shot. A really talented— The soundtrack is awesome. Yeah, the soundtrack was distracting at first, but I really bought into it. And, of course, at the end, the soundtrack is incredible. Yeah, the final tennis scene in that movie is really great. And the soundtrack is so fun and clubby.

1:04:08And I actually had to ban it from my apartment because we kept on getting into accidents because we were like playing the Challenger soundtrack. We had to get dinner ready fast enough. And then there would be like beans spilled on the ground because we were going too fast. Or it was like too hardcore for daily life. Yeah, yeah. I think I get that vibe. I actually should go back and check out the Spotify. I've seen Enora. Have you seen it? Yes, I really loved it. Yeah, right. Like truly, truly cool New York movie. Like really, really like detailed. and I mean I'm doing film computer system on this podcast.

1:04:37I feel like we have to get Clayton on the mic actually to talk about Oscar Bate because he is our true expert. I feel like let's switch him in. Yeah, Clayton, do you want to grab my chair for a second? We'll put Clayton on and while Clayton's moving over I am going to talk about A Real Pain because I thought this movie was not a great movie and so that's my hot take but I thought the performance from Kiernan Culkin really, really touched me. I think that we all have characters like that in our lives, especially living in a city with many characters. And I really, I felt like the movie was maybe not a full work.

1:05:16And Jesse Eisenberg is a great director, a baby director, I would say. Man, we're really doing movie criticism here. But I really thought that they brought a bigger, a wider lens to the Holocaust. and I thought that that's always a good thing. So I liked that. Clayton, you are on the mic now. I am on the mic. I'm seeing that movie on Friday. Okay, so you haven't seen that one. I haven't seen that. Have you seen any of the movies you've talked about since? Not yet. I have not seen Conclave, although that is my pick for best picture. Okay, yeah, I think it's probably up there. Yeah, just because it's success at the box office, the fact that the Catholicism aesthetically is having a moment.

1:05:57I think the gossipy nature of it. I think the politicking, but without politics. Yeah. So that in a different playground is popular because I don't think anybody wants to really think about politics at the moment, but they're OK thinking about political maneuvering when it comes to that. Yeah. It's like the gamesmanship of it is what we want. And you got Ralph Fiennes, who's somebody who people love, who hasn't gotten his gold yet. So I think that's big. Yeah. Isabella Rossellini. Yeah. Truly a great role. So I got to see Amelia Perez, which is on Netflix now. And I really enjoyed it. So I know there's a lot of discourse around it, but I really enjoyed it.

1:06:35I like musical movies in general. I thought that it was a very, I mean, the log line is like chaos. It's like a very long log line. And I really don't want to spoil too much about it. I just think it's worth checking out and you can make your own decision. But I feel like in the Oscars race, that one is absolutely at the top of the list for many. Okay. Well, I mean, it's available on Netflix, which makes it very easy for people to watch, which is always a benefit. Although it's a musical and there's another musical that is getting a lot of Oscar hype. Oh, yeah. Wicked. Wicked, right. Now, I don't necessarily believe it.

1:07:11I think this is a lot of marketing. Yeah. Because musicals don't always do that well. Yeah. I mean, of course, like Chicago, that was huge. But I do think that it could be a player. possibly. I don't necessarily believe in it, but we'll see. It's going to be huge. I mean, it's going to be massive. And they definitely want box office at the Oscars. They definitely want some popular movies there. They can't just have our house movies. That's like a real strategy. They should. I mean, they should. If they want people to watch, they should. What do you know about The Nickel Boys and The Brutalist?

1:07:44Okay. So Brutalist is one of those movies that I feel like it's going to be, it's very long. It's been hyped to the gills. I don't know if it's necessarily like a movie that a regular audience is going to love, but I mean, the Academy may really, really like that. So Adrian Brody is getting a lot of buzz for best, best actor. He's sort of, you know, he won for the pianist and then he sort of disappeared when it came to movies. He's done a lot of stuff in TV. so he's sort of the front runner for best actor but the brutalist is just i think i haven't seen it but i just think it's not it's it's not going to be something that's accessible enough to really win like best picture i don't see that yeah yeah but i do want to see it i've heard it's great i've heard it's great too i want to see it nickel boy is you know ronmel ross it's like his big directorial debut and a really acclaimed director who is young and he's made a stylistic choice by shooting that first person which is interesting not as accessible and what an incredible novel by colson whitehead that you know has won many awards four or five years ago i'm really looking forward to seeing how that first person point of view works yeah um but i feel like this is this oscars race is is heating up yeah the the big thing is like a lot of the movies that are in contention aren't movies that a lot of people know about and a lot of them have had their small releases or they're being platformed right now you know i think that nickel boys definitely it's one of those movies that people are going to really love or they're going to be they're not going to be able to handle it because of the pov yeah yeah um i can't wait to see it i love sort of taking chances like that i love that like a bold artistic shot which is why I like Amelia Perez so much.

1:09:36I think it's like stylistically, it's like big topics of the day and it's a crime thriller, but it's also in a musical. And, you know, Zoe Saldana, I mean, I have been just loving Lioness. Like, I'm a huge fan of that show, which is very different from Amelia Perez. But to see Zoe do a musical theater piece like this and to your point, it's accessible. It's on Netflix. I really enjoyed it. And I can't wait to continue reading the discourse because it's pretty, you know, polarizing film. Is Selena Gomez going to get a nomination? Absolutely. I think I've heard and read that there was maybe a little bit of slight negativity about her role.

1:10:12And I think that was personally uncalled for. I think she's really good in it. And it's not like it's definitely a supporting role. But I was liking that performance. She's very talented. Great. Do you want to jump back in? I actually have a last thing because this is three things. We each do three things. We only talked about five. Yeah. What's your last thing? My last thing. And I hope if you've made it this far. Thank you. We went a little bit longer with movies, but we get fired up about movies. It's Oscar season. There is a new N.A. Negroni in town. Oh, okay. Which is interesting because St.

1:10:42Agrestus has done the Phony Negroni and you find it everywhere and it's very delicious. The one knock I have had with St. Agrestus over the years has been there's a lot of sugar in there and you feel it. It's very sweet. And I feel like having more than one at the end of the night or the beginning is a little bit overkill. So I only can do one. So Lapos, first off, is not as good as the Foni Negroni. I have to say that from the start. The bitterness is not as bitter and it's not as well composed. That said, it's way less sugar. And I think that that's a really smart thing that they've done is kind of bring the sugar level down.

1:11:15So it's more like sessionable, as they say in the craft beer world. And really, I like the product a lot. And it's new to me and I experienced it this weekend. And I'm going to keep following this product and maybe try it in a few more ways. You can have it over ice. It's in a cute little can, so easy to pack in a cooler. And I really like it. Yeah. Where did you find it? Oh, you know what? I was at an event that our friend, Josette Barbour, was hosting. So she had it at this event. And I was like, OK, thank you very much. Lapos, very cool. Yeah, I'll keep an eye out for it. Yeah, check it out.

1:11:48Thanks for sharing your three things with me. You too.

1:11:55This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.