504: Holiday Baking Sugar Rush with New York Times Cooking’s Vaughn Vreeland

30:16Like it's beautiful, beautiful. So I'm really excited for people to see it. Can you tell me about the cookies themselves? Because they will be out when this episode. Oh, yeah. Oh, perfect. Yeah. So I think our cover star is Melissa's iced peppermint cookie, which is almost like a black and white cookie, but it's a red and white cookie. Oh, cute. So it's really cute. And it looks really gorgeous against, like I said, that emerald background. So Melissa's is that one. Claire Saffitz did this Boucher de Noel cookie, which is kind of like a chocolate rougala. It's really, really cool. I mean, just that one is a little bit more labor intensive, but they're delicious.

30:57Yeah. They're worth it. And I feel Like for Claire, people will do a Project Bake. Exactly. And it makes, I think, like 30 cookies or something like that. So, you know, your yield is pretty high. Sola did a Holiday Rocky Road, which I love. Like it's basically just fudge with a lot of really fun, colorful mix-ins. She did like gumdrops and Biscoff cookies. And it's like just delicious, but also really, really cute and looks really great in a cookie box. And Sam Sennevaratna did a cheesecake stuffed ginger cookie, which was delicious. Like, I am a soft and chewy cookie girl. So that one was speaking to me probably maybe not more than the others, but like I loved that cookie.

31:44My heart just leapt when you said cheesecake stuffed because I love cheesecake. Yeah, it is really, really good. And I mean, anything that Sam bakes is like fabulous. But this one was like chef's kiss. um eric's is a lemon turmeric crinkle cookie which i also love because that one kind of tastes like fruity pebbles it is you know there's something about like lemon flavored things sometimes like it's not artificial lemon like he's using real lemon in it but like the lemon turmericness of it is like did i just eat a bowl of cereal in a good way the earthiness of the turmeric maybe yeah like non-derogatory for sure yeah it's like really really good yeah Oh, Sue Lee's is a matcha and black sesame swirl cookie.

32:30That one's shortbread-y and, like, also delicious. Sue is so good. I am obsessed with Sue. And, like, all of her shortbread is fabulous. She did a shortbread last year. Yeah. Last year she did that Neapolitan checkerboard cookie. And that was, like, I'm not a shortbread guy. But that made a shortbread believer. out of me. And this one this year is like, like kick it up 10 notches. And then my cookie is a rum buttered almond cookie. So kind of playing off like the campiness again, drinks as cookies. I was like, all right, what's the last holiday drink that I haven't made into a cookie? Because I have the eggnog snickerdoodle, the peppermint brownie cookie, the gingerbread latte cookie, the Mexican hot chocolate cookie.

33:22So this one is like basically, you know, those Italian pignoli cookies. Yeah. So it's kind of a little bit like that. It's like an almond flour, powdered sugar, egg white base with a little rum in it. And then I brush rum butter over the top. I roll it in slivered almonds, brush rum butter over the top before I bake it. And then right after they come out of the oven and then sprinkle them with flaky salt. And they're honestly pretty good if I do say so myself. It does sound really good. And it sounds gluten-free maybe also. It is gluten-free. Yeah. Is that something that you think about also wanting to have like a vegan or a gluten-free option in the mix?

33:58We definitely have that conversation a lot of the times. I would say like in the past, we haven't necessarily had those options. But this year I was like, you know, we need to have a cookie for everyone. Right. And so that was definitely, this one is not vegan because it uses egg whites, but it is gluten-free. Yeah, that's good. It's a nice option to have. I'm curious to get your thoughts just a little bit more broadly. It's crazy for me to even think about the fact that it's been six years since The Times launched the video for cooking, because obviously, as we're talking about with Food Network, that's been such a kind of staple of a lot of media organizations.

34:36How have you seen The Times cooking video strategy kind of evolve over the past six years? What do you think the era is that we're in right now? Ooh, that's a really great question. I think right now we're in an era of really building out our talent in terms of franchising. So I think like, you know, maybe that's a little too inside baseball. Maybe my directors might not love that I'm saying that, but I think that's probably fine. um so essentially we're looking at creating not only series for youtube but how can we take these series and kind of make them breathe a life of their own like cookie week for example so cookie week like i said we've got live events we have newsletters we have you know we're pulling a lot of different levers and it seems like an entity that people really gravitate toward so how do we have that strategy kind of carry us throughout the year rather than just being super seasonal.

35:38And, you know, if we can have a baking series that has a newsletter attached to it, it's kind of almost creating like a cinematic universe in and of itself. And I think that that's one direction that our strategy is definitely going in next year is kind of like, how do we make this even more of a multimedia experience than it already is? Because a lot of times our videos do have an editorial component, but we want to be that destination for folks like one stop shop. Like they're coming here to get their recipes, their videos, their newsletters to keep up with the times. Like that's kind of what we're creating.

36:19And I think that that's definitely like the big part of our strategy for next year. That makes a lot of sense. And looking like beyond the times, are there any individual creators or other brands that you think are doing cool stuff in the world of kind of food video right now? Oh, yeah. I mean, I love Chuck Cruz. Chuck Cruz is so cool. Chuck Cruz, also Haley and Chuck together are so good. Oh, Haley Catalano. I adore her stuff. Like, just so soothing. You know, it's so funny because if you asked me a couple years ago, I would have been like, I would never unwind with a food video. Like I do it from my day to day.

37:02And they have content that like makes me, that soothes me like deep down in my soul. But I'm also learning a lot, you know, I'm like, oh, that's such a great way of doing that. Or like I wouldn't have thought to put these things together. And I really, really enjoy that. I think I'm now finding more inspiration in individual creators than I was a couple years ago. Maybe I was a little jaded because I'm like working on the media side of things and I am not myself necessarily an individual creator. I'm like, oh, wow. Like, no, but it is really cool to see what they're doing. You know, and a lot of these folks have very, very strong points of view that I appreciate.

37:46Like, I also love Carolina Gellin. I love her cookbook. And she makes videos for us too, but just her as an entity, she's so fun. Her food is amazing. And I think that she's really out there kind of hitting the pavement in such a cool way. I'm like, damn, she's made such a name for herself in the last three or four years. It's crazy. And that's just really inspiring to me. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's interesting also to see people who have formal restaurant training that have become creators like Haley and Chuck, for example, in the past couple of years. And just the fact that people see that as a viable career path, like people, especially who are working in restaurants who maybe don't want to be doing that kind of work anymore, they are thinking about making video.

38:32Yeah, absolutely. And I think beyond that, it's like people are making their recipes too. Like I think there it's, it's viewed as this aspirational side of things. That's really cool for folks to be able to be like, huh, I think I'm going to try that. And even if I don't make it look exactly like Haley or Chuck makes it look like I'm still going to do this thing. And it's, they're actually getting people to be outside of their comfort zones a little bit, which is really, really neat. Like, I think that that's what our goal is always like at the times is if we do have a more aspirational recipe that's like a little bit more labor intensive how do we get people to actually make it you know and i think that personality is honestly a huge part of that like people will make the claire saffett's recipe that is a little bit more like calls for a little bit more ingredients or like takes a little bit longer because they love her you know they want to feel like they're experiencing what she experiences and i think that that's like a good viable option for a lot of people in the restaurant space is like, hey, like go into the creator space because it's obviously working for them.

39:45Yeah. I mean, I do think there's only so many people that can find success at that level, but it is something that happens. And I think just tying back on what you're saying about Claire, the other element is that, or all these creators we're talking about, they make it feel like you can understand how to do something. And that if you don't, you can go back and watch the video again and like watch it again. And I think like that's the really useful thing if you have never made something before and you're reading a recipe and you don't understand how to fold the cheese or do like a book turn with your dough that you can go back and see it there yeah fold the cheese david yeah exactly i was like i'm gonna sprinkle in my reference and vaughn is gonna pick it up and run with it um no and i think that's honestly soul and ham too like that's what i a lot of what i learned from them isn't purely culinary it's like how to teach people you know they're so good at teaching people how to do things that it really helps me frame my thinking when I go on set to be talent in a video it's like okay like yeah like I'm gonna be like try to be a little silly a little like I'm gonna kiki with the girls but like I also like need to be informative because ultimately like that's why people come here I've definitely seen some comments on YouTube before where people are like what is like you know it's What is Vaughn saying?

41:03Like, stop with the jokes. Like, I'm here to learn how to make a cake, you know? But, you know, it's now for me more about balance because I want to obviously be very informative and share my knowledge with people. But I also, I want to entertain. You want to be yourself, too. Yeah, I got to be myself. Actually, can you maybe explain the lore behind the Katherine Hepburn Brownie recipe comment? Yeah. So basically, it was this woman who commented. And it starts off, you're reading it, and it's like, oh, this is so sweet. Like, this has been my go-to brownie recipe for 30 years. And you're like, okay, cool.

41:37I mean, I'm just imagining she's like – She definitely talks like that. She talks like that. And she was like just giving people pointers. And she goes, in the 80s, an acquaintance in Germany to whom I brought some of the brownies and who considered herself a great cook asked for the recipe but was never able to get it to work. She kept asking me what she was doing wrong, and I was never able to solve a problem. Eventually, she moved to the U.S. and stole my husband. So, like, it's, like, completely innocuous. And then she's just, like... Takes a real turn, yeah. This bitch stole my husband. Also, is the implication that because she couldn't make the brownie recipe work, she decided to take something from her in return?

42:15Honestly, actually, maybe. Speaking of making a cinematic universe, I'm waiting for the times to, like, IP this and make a whole spinoff movie, you know? That would actually be... That's so smart. Eliza oh my god wait like literally I'm about to go 10 blocks down the road and be like guys I've got an idea um no I I mean we really I think that the comments like live and breathe a life of their own and so when I did those few videos of like cooking the comments you know they're really fun for folks but I I really think that honestly like we don't necessarily need me to like read all those comments allowed.

42:54They have a life of their own. They have a life of their own. And this series that you did where you did the adaptations that people suggested in the comments, I thought was really smart because it's a good way of acknowledging the fact that there are valid tweaks on recipes while at the same time kind of gently making fun of those comments that are like, I subbed the almonds for kale and it turned out terrible. Two stars. Literally, though. I mean, we definitely have some like those those comments are crazy. The comment section really signifies how much of a community we have in the cooking atmosphere.

43:23It isn't just a place for people to come and get the recipes. It's also a place where people can come and share their recipes and how they're adapting it. And I think for me, I always view recipes as this living, breathing entity. And there's no better marker of that than going to the notes section of a recipe and seeing how people are amending it. And honestly, some of the some of the ones some of the versions that I made were amazing you know and I think that that is what is actually really special like about NYT cooking not to get like too you know high on the horse but like we really have the home cook in mind and I think that that is something that's very apparent when you're reading our recipes is like not only are we showing you how we do it, but we're also highlighting how other folks do it too.

44:17Yeah. I want to close today with playing a little rapid fire taste check game with you. So I'll give you a question and make you play favorites and you can tell me the first answer that comes into your head. Okay. Yeah. Your favorite cookbook. Ooh, I do love past the plate right now. Carolina Gallin's cookbook. I think it's really good. Your favorite like holiday recipe to bake. Eggnog, Stinker Doodles. Your favorite New York City restaurant. Thai diner. Ooh. What meal of the day? Ooh. Every meal? Every meal. I do love going there for brunch, but I love getting their cabbage rolls are so good.

44:54And I could eat that for dinner or lunch. Their khao soi is my favorite khao soi. Khao soi is so good. I actually lived in Thailand for like seven months, and that was something that we could only get in the north of Thailand. And being able to come here and get like really good khao soi, so good. Your favorite bakery in New York? La Cabra or Libre. Your go-to bagel order? Okay. Egg everything, untoasted, sausage, egg, and cheese with onion and sriracha. Nice. Your go-to late night bodega snack? Ooh. A Cuban with chips and orange drink, if you know, you know. Do the chips go in the sandwich? Oh, sometimes I'll do that myself.

45:44Okay. You wouldn't ask them to do it? No, I wouldn't ask them. No, late night, you can't do that. No, late night, no. I'm just like, I'm ordering something that's prescripted on the menu. I'm like, I'm not trying to make your life hell. A piece of kitchen wisdom or a hack that you think more people should know about? Ooh, yeah. With enough love and enough salt, anything is possible. A now-closed restaurant that you wish you could bring back from the dead. Okay, well, off of Thai Diner, probably Uncle Boon's because I loved that restaurant. It was my favorite before Thai Diner even opened. Or Prune.

46:18The most underrated piece of kitchen equipment? Probably an offset spatula for me personally. I use it for everything. Something that you will never make from scratch? I will never make shortbread from scratch just because I'm not really like I said I'm not really huge shortbread fan but I will eat shortbread that is made from scratch. Definitely. Yeah. Okay finally a fictional food scene like from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish you could eat in real life. Oh, okay. So since I've got holiday on the brain, like Home Alone 2, when he orders like all of that room service from the plaza and he's just like eating buckets of ice cream, that is iconic.

46:58so probably that um or like the honey chocolate syrup shaving cream scene from the parent trap when they do the the the prank or the oreos and at home i like to eat them with peanut butter yeah maybe eat the oreos and peanut butter and don't eat the shaving cream yeah yeah yeah uh the parent trap just has a lot of good food it really does and thank you so much for coming on the show von this was so fun this was so fun thanks eliza

47:37So we just heard from Von Vreeland from New York Times Cooking. A lot of great baking ideas, what it was like making the cookie package for the Times this year. And I wanted to chat with you a little bit more about holiday baking and get a sense of what we're trying to be making, what we think other people should be making. I mean, Eliza, we're in the season. We're like right there, right now. And I loved your interview, by the way. What a great conversation. Yeah, I have so many ideas of things that I want to bake. And I also have been just consuming a lot of cookies and treats this time of year.

48:04Me too. I mean, I always feel like I need a block of cheese next to me at all times during the holiday season because I need to counter react the over sugar I become. Do you have that tendency sometimes? Yeah, I think that I get in the headspace where I want to eat my leftover dessert for breakfast and then I need a really salty or vegetable heavy lunch to kind of get my taste buds back into the middle. That's it. Exactly. It's like getting the taste buds back so you can enjoy more sweets like at weird hours of the day. The cheese palate cleanser. The cheese palate cleanser. I mean, let's like think about a story.

48:38Let's do it. Okay. The cheese palate. No, sorry, bad idea. I mean, it is a classic dessert offering for a reason, you know, the cheese plate at a restaurant. It's true. So we're not too far off. And I have seen some bakers doing like parmesan shortbread things of that nature so i think there are some things out there oh i mean the parmesan incorporation into pastry at the final course is is hot right now i've had it a couple times shaving of parmesan over um ice cream over over pies well there is the classic apple pie with a slice of cheddar cheese yo yo i like that move i'm i'm all for it i've never had it before.

49:14But I have had a recipe that I believe Sarah Jampel developed for Bon Appetit that's an apple pie bar potentially that has Parmesan in the crust, which I think is a nice kind of flip on that classic. That is a nice play when you don't want to go full Kraft single on your beautiful apple pie. Yeah. Yeah. I think Angela Sosa did a shaved Parmesan Reggiano atop like it was definitely ice cream, something very soft thing. Amazing, amazing. I'm into that. So what are you going to be baking at home this year? So yeah, like back to baking. I feel like I have two standards I do. And this is like quite embarrassing because I really don't have like a lot of experience or interest in doing baking projects.

49:56I can fully admit it. One thing I always make is English toffee, which I believe I made last year at the Crown Publishing Group cookie competition that will be returning. It's a high stakes competition. It is. And I believe the stakes are even higher because there's going to be a real judging process this year. Last year was our kickoff year. This year, I believe there's going to be a... And we're both invited. You're invited. I have to think about what I'm going to bring to compete, though. I know. Me too. This is what this is all about. We're workshopping right now. We're workshopping our thoughts.

50:27So I did this last year. Did not win. I didn't even get in the top five. Fine. This is from my German grandmother. It's like a recipe that she had in her recipe card block. It's like a wood box with recipe cards. And it's a toffee that's really simple. It's obviously sugar and butter melted down and with a really high quality premium chocolate melted on top. You can add walnuts to it. That's been like kind of our riff or pecans, pecans, whatever you call it. And, you know, the key there is just to make sure the chocolate is spread evenly. And you can use chocolate chips and then kind of like put like a sheet pan over the sheet pan and then just like obviously keep the heat in and melt it and then spread it.

51:13And like, you know, within 10 minutes, you've got yourself some toffee. You know, I really like the sound of this. And I think that maybe it didn't win at the bake off because people don't want to eat so much toffee on its own. But I think if you smashed it up and put it into chocolate chip cookies, you would maybe have a winner. Buddy, that is such an idea. So do you use the toffee as an ingredient in chocolate chip cookies? A two-way—that might be the way I go. What is your, like, first thought that you're going to—like a recipe that you make during the holiday season? Well, last year I made Melissa Clark's gingerbread blondies that were a part of last year's New York Times cookie package.

51:49And they really are so good. They're deeply spiced, squishy in the center. I think I ate maybe four or five in one go. And then I did feel sick because there's just there's a lot of sugar in the blondies. But they're very delicious. I will say that the first time I made them, I did under bake them a little too much because she does say there should be a little bit of jiggle when you take them out. And I really wanted that, you know, not quite gooey, but very squishy center. And I think that I overcompensated a little bit. So that would be my advice. But I really love them and I will make them again this year.

52:23Well, I would love to try them. So if you want to bring that to the competition. I could. The only thing is I think they're a very popular recipe and I'm worried that someone would bring the same one and that my bake would not be up to par. But that is something, you know, maybe I'll make it again. Yeah. Another thing that I want to make this year is the flan de calabaza recipe from Paolo Velez's new book, Bodega Bakes, that has kind of caramelized pepitas on top. Oh, yeah. I really like pumpkin and squash and all of those fall flavors in baked goods. and flan is also a favorite of mine. Yeah.

52:58I feel like, do you think it's difficult to make? It sounds intimidating to me. I think if you have a good recipe, you should be fine because there isn't that much going on. It's really about having it be set right and giving it enough time to set up properly. In a similar vein, I made Rick Martinez's pumpkin cheesecake, which also has the caramelized pepitas on top for Thanksgiving a couple of years ago. And it really was so good. And I feel like that is just kind of an evergreen fall baking recipe. Yeah, one recipe that I think I'm going to make this winter in the holiday season, and it's not a cookie, so I don't know if I'm going off book a little bit.

53:32I mean, I'm talking about flan and cheesecake. You're doing flan and cheesecake, right, right. I think we're not doing good. I keep thinking the cookie competition. That's what my brain is right now when we're workshopping. But Nicola Lam, she just came out with this book. Sift, you had a great conversation with her on the show. She has a lemon-bossed cheesecake in there with sticky lemons that looks so amazing. amazing you know it's like got cream cheese sour cream heavy cream obviously that's like the base of it and then these lemons are are kind of like you put sugar and you cook it down for a little while and it's really like it feels like technically difficult on paper but honestly i'm up for the challenge to do my own boss cheesecake i've always wanted to make it so that's one that i'm thinking about i've never heard of a sticky lemon before that's basically the lemons that are cooked down with sugar yeah cooked down with sugar and you actually i think you actually bake them in the oven.

54:18I think there's actually a little bit of salt here on the lemon peels and lemon, you know, flesh, and then you bake it. These are my notes and I can't read my handwriting, but pretty much it's that. And, you know, that book is, I was like looking through it. I'm like, man, this book is amazing. It's a really good book. Yeah. There's a recipe from it that I was thinking about wanting to tackle around the end of the year when I have more time to be baking. It's something called a Karpatka. Have you had this before? Karpatka? What's the spelling? P-A-T-K-A. It's a Polish kind of cream pie, essentially, that has a choux base.

54:52So not like puff pastry or something like that. And then it's almost like a British custard slice. It has just thick custard inside. And her version is with plum and mascarpone. But I think you could kind of swap in, you know, apple or like whatever kind of fruit you want. And I just really like the idea of a custard slice kind of approach. And also I've never made choux at home before. So I feel like it could be my great British bake-off moment. Your moment to make your own DIY shoe. Yeah, I know what I'm supposed to look for because I've seen truly so many episodes where they're making shoe and holding up the spatula and looking for the batter to drip off in a V-shape.

55:27So that gives me like maybe unrealistic confidence. I think you're going to do it. I think you're going to do it and it's going to be your first DIY shoe and it's going to be a big moment for you. Yeah, I think, you know, people look for different things around holiday baking and some of it is something that's, you know, easy to bring to a party or have people over. And then other people just want something more ambitious that you can kind of use the extra time that maybe you have off at the end of the year to do something you haven't done before. So I think that this Karpatka kind of falls into that latter category.

55:54I like it. I'm thinking format as well because I'm thinking when I go to my in-laws house or for the holidays, I want to bring something and have it ready to go. But I don't want it to be a baked good. So Sarah Fennell's new book, Broma Bakery, has a recipe that really speaks to me because I would say if I was to answer the end of our interview, your favorite dessert, I would say chocolate mousse. Chocolate mousse is by far my favorite dessert. Basic as hell, definitely 1980s, but I like it. I think it's easy to do in advance. She has one with peppermint. So she puts peppermint extract in it. And it's really it's a pretty basic, straightforward chocolate eggs, you know, mousse recipe.

56:39But it uses the blender and blender is always running. And it feels like it's very approachable, which I think Broma Bakery's cookbook, Sweet Tooth, has a lot of cool approachable recipes like that. And I'm going to like do like little ramekins. I think I might go buy some ramekins because I don't have ramekins and I just I feel like I'll have a future with ramekins. Yeah, I also like to look for small dessert glassware and cups when I'm thrifting, especially like upstate at a lot of the like vintage barns, I guess I would call them. I have a lot of cool dishware that I've gotten from there. The only downside is that I have shattered a couple over the years and then my set isn't complete and I can't easily replace it that way when it's secondhand.

57:21But I'm just kind of leaning into that and having a purposefully hodgepodge dessert spoon and glassware set. Have you been to the Newburgh Vintage Emporium ever? I have. And I got a set of very beautiful like red dessert cups and then I smashed two of them. So you got to make a return. I love that place. I go I live pretty close to there and it is such a fun visit. We go several times a year. Usually I'm beat to Margo's often. And there's always surprises around every corner of that place. They have so many things. And I find that a lot of it is really affordably priced. And sometimes I just buy like cool serving spoons that I find or glassware and I just keep them somewhere and try not to use them.

57:58And then when I have a friend who has a birthday coming up, it's always like a really nice gift. And it's so much more unique and affordable than if you're going to like a store here in the city. We just pivoted a gift guide. I know. Sorry. We're doing gift guide mode. No, I'm into that. We should do a gift guide, actually. That's a good idea. Is there one last recipe you want to highlight? The last thing that I know I'm going to make are these buckwheat chocolate chip cookies. That is a Sarah Jampal recipe from Bon Appetit that she developed as a part of a baking package when I was working there.

58:25And during the pandemic, I had a fixation on these cookies because you can easily freeze them and then just thaw off a cookie or two at a time. And I was in an era where I really felt that I needed like a warm chocolate chip cookie every night for dessert. But it is just a really good chocolate chip cookie recipe. The buckwheat flour makes it almost savory and nutty. And you still have some AP flour in there to give it the structural integrity. So it's not a gluten free cookie, but it is just like a very complex cookie. I love buckwheat cookies. I agree with you. The texture is always the first thing that you notice when you bite into one and it has like that curiosity.

58:57And of course, if you use high quality chocolate, if you sell it hard with that, you've got like two things going for you, like great texture and structure and chocolate. Yeah. Also, I think if you chopped up your grandma's English toffee recipe, you'd go really good in that cookie. So I think I've landed on chocolate buckwheat cookie with English toffee. I mean, I think that sounds really good, but you shouldn't limit yourself because if you lose and it was my suggestion, then really I'm the person. Well, you're going to do that one, I feel. I have one last call out because I always make this over the holidays.

59:26I make puppy chow every holiday. Also called Muddy Buddies, depending on your regionality. Have you had this pastry? Is it a pastry? It's not. It's like a snack. It's like a sweet snack mix, right? It's a sweet snack mix. With kind of the puffed Chex. What are they called? Well, I think they're called Chex squares or Chex cereal. They're just Chex. They're like the rice Chex. Yeah. I've had it before. I've had a couple of different flavorings. What's your flavor profile? I mean, peanut butter is always how I go. It's always peanut butter and chocolate and Chex with powdered sugar, obviously. You toss it all together in like some format in some, you know, in some kind of array.

1:00:09I don't know what you call it. In some kind of like we do that in a precise way, I'd say. Soignet. Weirdly vague. Yeah. Weirdly vague. I'm like thinking about how I do it. and I probably do it differently every time, but it's like one of those no recipe things that you do. Yeah, and then do you kind of package it up and give it to people or do you just kind of keep it around the house in bowls? I mean, all of the above, pretty much. I usually make enough to have my own stash and like a gallon Ziploc. And then yes, absolutely. Neighbors, friends, coworkers. I mean, do you think I have a chance of winning if I do a puppy chow with a little bit of a twist?

1:00:45I feel like I'm confused on if this is a cookie bake-off or if it's just a dessert thing. I feel formats have been very, it's been a little vague. Yeah, I mean, I worry that one of the reasons why you lost last year is that you gave toffee, which is not a cookie. So maybe if you did like a puppy chow cookie, I think that would kill. How do I do that? It's like we're doing the rice cereal somehow base. It's like a bar almost. Yeah, you could do it as a bar. That's actually a really smart idea. I think it needs to be in a bar or cookie format for the purists. I think so. I mean, I'm going to get the ground rules.

1:01:19We're going to do it. It's mid-December. We have a little bit of time. Yeah. I also want to shout out, just while we're talking about Rice Krispie adjacent things, the sesame Rice Krispie treats that Eric Kim developed for The New York Times are very delicious. I've made them think twice. I love that recipe. It's in his cookbook, I believe, too. It's such a good recipe. It gets on the savory sweet dessert, which I'm into and which also going back to our original cheese candy conversation maybe would help prevent that kind of over sweetness. Yeah, I think maybe going a little savory might win. We're going to do some research here.

1:01:55We will report back on if Matt is victorious at the Crown cookie competition. Well, good chatting baked goods with you. Yeah, I'm looking forward to eating whatever you make.

1:02:09This is Taste is hosted by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert Theme music by Steve Rydell Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things happening