505: Restaurant Hype and Wine Bar Partisanship with Jon Bonné

28:14Brother. Which. Brother, we could go there. Wasn't on my outline, but we could go there. Just like, I mean, I get it. Like everyone's just like, oh, my God, the, you know, the fire hose, the fire hose. But it's I mean, A, it's I will give it about eight more eight to 12 more months before people realize that this has literally nothing to do with the quality of the food and whether you're actually going to enjoy it. And B, and it's really interesting. I was I was in Philly earlier in the year and I was having a chat with the GM at one of the like kind of bigger deal restaurants about. about um uh so in in philly it's the inquirer craig leban is the critic and he used to give out bells instead of stars but could be bells could be stars whatever and she was making the case she's like you know like she's like when is craig gonna bring back bells and it's like i don't like i think you know i think there is a very strong resistance uh in in food media right now Again, like kind of a systemic problem for me of like delivering a firm judgment call and – Confident as well.

29:20Yeah. Affirming confident. And the thing is like, you know, look, like like it or not, but the people who are doing that job professionally are really pretty damn good at what they do and they're pretty damn smart at it. And if they weren't that much 10 years ago, they have had to become that way. And her point, and I think it's a fair one, was like for people who are ambitious, who do want to really like reach high. And I'm not talking about Michelin World's 50 best because actually I would argue the worst that food media does for like covering itself and covering things locally, the more opening it gives to these kind of very sort of hypey slash old fashioned slash sort of non meritocratic, you know, systems is like if you really want to shine and you just like, you know, all the nice words in the world are great.

30:14And as we're as we're people, we can appreciate that. But like, there needs to be something that makes it clear. And, you know, when when you keep kind of chipping away and like, you know, Bon Appetit, best new restaurants, that's 20 across the country. New York Times, like 50 best restaurants or 50 top restaurants, like, you know, like the prisms are pretty narrow. And I love the restaurants that are getting attention. But but it it needs to be exponentially more. Yeah, we need more underground reviewers who are going to the smaller spots. I think there's to the point of TikTok, I agree fully.

30:49I've said it many times that this is entertainment, not criticism. And it certainly isn't going to help you as a whole get a great meal. It might get you into a space that has a cool owner or has a meme menu item or a vibe. And certainly we do dime because of those three reasons. But typically, we just want a meal that is exceptional and hits what we're searching for. Is it a cuisine? Is it a neighborhood? And the more of these smaller reviewers who go out and actually do the work like Ryan Sutton, like Emily Wilson, to name just two, I think that's going to be, I think we just need more of those for sure.

31:25So John, let's actually keep talking about journalism, but let's switch it over to wine. And I asked John Fine from the new wine review this on a recent episode. And you're, of course, Do I owe an email? I'm sorry, John. John, he owes you an email, but everyone's been busy. John owes John an email. Yeah, John owes John, but a terrific publication. And really, I want to ask this question. How do you get people excited about wine through the written word? And do you think that we're generally getting the information we need to go out there to our local bottle shop, to go to our local wine bar, to go to Costco and buy great wines?

32:02And we were entering into the holiday drinking season, which kind of extends from Thanksgiving all the way to the new year. And that's a good amount of drinking of wine there. And we're going to be going to sites and looking for content or going to TikTok perhaps. So are we doing a good job covering it? No. So, I mean, so look, wine in the written word. Like the written word has always sold wine. And I hate to say for better or worse is going to continue to because it is the most easily digestible form of information. And like you're not you're not going to like you're not going to like search through TikTok to find like, you know, what is the right wine for Thanksgiving dinner?

32:45Because it's just you're not going to get actionable information. But that said, I don't know where you're going to get actionable information to me. um so there's a bunch of things packed in there the written word yes absolutely uh i have always maintained and will continue to maintain that uh wine writing is at its best when it is telling stories and telling legitimate stories and this is to our to to extend our discussion about pr and the people with money kind of you know flexing that is inevitably the problem with wine i am i I'm actually kind of mellower now than I used to be. I used to be vituperatively mean to wine PR people just in that, in that like, you know, the, the, the brands that they're representing are almost inevitably not interesting.

33:34They are the people who have got money to throw around quite a lot of money. It's shocking how expensive wine PR is. And so like, it's just, you know, and I mean, it's, it is a failure of the wine industry and that that's where the money goes versus trying to create anything approaching a sustainable model for wine writing or wine journalism so you know literally there's like five or ten people in this country um who can make money who can like sustain a full-time job off of wine journalism i used to be one of them um and i mean they are the unicorn jobs but it's i mean it's it is appalling that that is the case for an industry this size uh and you know so most wine journalism i'm putting journalism in huge like like jack and the beanstalk size giant air quotes um uh is you know it's mostly folks who are just trying to like you know grab scraps go on press trips do whatever and it's just like you're never going to get meaningful storytelling.

34:37You're never going to get useful information. In terms of like, you know, guidance and whatever, I mean, I feel like there's not tons new to say. The guidance is out there. When I did my second book, The New Wine Rules, like, I really wrote it basically to like provide people with the tools to more or less ask the right questions. And I don't know, that was 2017. I don't know that things have wildly changed since then, you know, you go to a good bottle shop, that bottle shop should, as you would with any kind of shopping, they should be able to kind of guide you through their wares and help get you to a thing that makes you happy.

35:13You go to Costco, man, you're on your own. Like, I mean, my 25th hot take of the show, I would argue that wine shopping at Costco is like the most boomer thing that anyone can do. um it's just it's it's you know like it's treating wine like treating vodka whatever and and like that's fine like whatever i need a case of something drinkable and you know big brands you know there's you know there's there's some diversity but but it's like it's not like it is in the uk with the supermarkets where there is enormous buying power so there's a lot of big brand stuff but there's also like a lot of really interesting wines below the the surface um you You know, I it's it's weird to me that we're talking on the one hand about like, you know, drinking natty orange wine and wine bars.

36:01And on the other hand, we're talking about like buying Tignanello at Costco. Like those to me are two different generational approaches. And the latter is to me, I think it's not even this unsustainable. I just think that it's going to evolve because because consumer behavior is changing. And Gen X, who everyone has given no credit to the entire our entire lives in terms of wine. This is always Silicon Valley Bank's thing. Rob McMillan was like, you know, at some point people are going to take attention to how much money Gen X spends on wine and they like know what they want and they're great consumers.

36:39And you're going to stop paying all this attention to the boomers and the millennials and like find your market. So I think it's interesting now you look at Gen X, you look at millennials, you look at even like we're late, you know, like like older Gen Z is. And like they have kind of come through all of this becoming pretty discerning wine shoppers. And, you know, I I feel like, you know, are they looking for 95 point scores anymore? Probably not. Are they looking for, you know, like like the old Marissa Ross, whatever? Probably not. Like, you know, they want they want things that make them feel like this is something that transports them.

37:21And that's always been one of my metaphors for wine is like you're buying this bottle because you want to capture just a little piece of the place and the time that it was made. And quite literal, I mean, we would once have said the ethos, but, you know, 2024, like you want to capture the wine, the vine. The vibes. You want to capture the winemaker's vibe. Yeah, the vibes and the vines. You know, like there, I did an Anfora thing and it's eight months mastery, whatever it is. It's just like, you know, it's, there is an, I hate this word with wine, but there is, I mean, in the end it is craft, but screw it.

37:57There is an artistry to making those choices that I think does speak to the consumer. I mean, it's also to talk a little bit more about millennials and younger, I would say and argue that wine is just an extension of a trip or a memory on the road. And really with so much spending power towards international travel and domestic travel, be it Napa, be it Willamette, be it Sicily, be it Loire. It could be all these wine regions. And really, that storytelling part is so key. I love that you bring that up to to offer this great Sicilian wine in the shop and have some kind of story or have a narrative on the new wine review or punch about these wines in a region that you've been to that you maybe know the town that is mentioned in the article.

38:45I feel like it's like connecting those small dots that you can then buy those wines. And like, yeah, I was there in Tuscany that one time for that bachelorette party. And I feel that perhaps is the future of wine media is kind of evoking that travel that has happened. I don't know if it's going to be Tuscany, but so it's interesting. Tuscany was a random choice there. No, you mentioned Oregon. And so it's interesting. Like I was out in Oregon over the summer to do to do some book tour stuff. And it's really interesting in Willamette right now because, you know, that is a region that like built itself on Pinot Noir.

39:22And one of the like the thesis of this dinner, we did like the new France versus the new Oregon. Very cool. And so we served no Pinot Noir. And the whole thing was like it was actually based on like a thing I wrote for Punch, for the site Punch in like 2016. or based in part on like, which was like, what if like Oregon's true soulmate was the Loire Valley? And so it was like Gamay and sparkling wine and Chenin Blanc and Cabernet Franc and just looking at all these different things. And it's really interesting to see like the momentum in Oregon right now is everything outside of Pinot Noir. And I think people are realizing like there is a generational thing with Pinot Noir.

40:06Like Pinot Noir is a fancy wine. And it's a wine that's like by definition is kind of expensive or supposed to be expensive. It's, you know, it's all sort of based on Burgundy. But like, you know, what if you like Albarino? Like there's literally like this raft of like great Oregon Albarino showing up. There's wine labels out there that are just making Oregon and Washington Gamay. And like remarkably, remarkably good wines. And it's like, you know, in the same way that if you're hanging out in like, you know, you know, Dime Square wine bar and you're drinking Beaujolais and like appreciating it for the great wine that it is like there is now this echo in California, in Oregon of like of wines that are, you know, thoughtful but drinkable.

40:51Yeah. It's a zag culture. Totally. The Zag is the terroir or the wine production that we know and love. And the Zag is, of course, everything else. And it seems the Zag culture is real. I'm going to segue and talk about NA a little bit because I think we obviously talk about on the show quite a bit. And, you know, I've been furthering this idea, this pet theory that, you know, with younger drinkers, sobriety to drinking less is on the rise. and that there's a possible existential threat to the wine and spirits industry in these changing tastes. I believe you're going to push back a little bit on this notion, and you're very well qualified to give a thought on NA as the media story, including on the show, versus the reality.

41:38John, are we drinking less in the younger generations right now? Well, I think yes. I mean, yes, people are drinking less. frankly there are options now to drink different things well absolutely they are drinking less uh i think you just i mean like the data is there but you also like see there's finally options for people to drink something that is um not alcoholic i think people you know are thinking about wellness and frankly like um that's that's not that's not a bad thing um that said You know, the fact that the martini has made a great comeback in the past year, I think says that, you know, we're not we're not drinking as much less as some people would like to think.

42:23But maybe it's maybe it's more conscious drinking, which is great. I mean, look, I'm absolutely like I myself am drinking less these days. One, I, you know, I'm getting older. I want to be in better shape. uh i you know i am i like kind of changing that part of my life a little bit to really take moments to enjoy it and to think about uh you know what you know what i am ingesting and like some of it is the boost some of it is the calories like um this this is the part where the wine writer loses all his credit like what i have drinking a lot this year is mezcal sodas which is funny for someone who used to mock people for drinking vodka sodas but it's like you know what?

43:03I really love mezcal. I want to be a little bit hydrated, even if I'm drinking. I don't want like a cocktail with four ingredients and like half a day's worth of sugar in it, which is like an amazing thing to have, you know, a couple of times a week. But it's just, you know, it's just thinking more consciously. And when it comes to NA, I admit, I think the actual like spirit free zero proof thing, to some extent, it's going to run its course in that I don't entirely understand what implied value comes from making an NA gin. If you want to drink gin, drink gin. If you want to like have a, you know, infused like juniper thing, then like do an infused juniper thing.

43:47I think there, I think it will, I think we're like literally in the 1.0 of it. And I think it's going to evolve so that there are ways to, um, to have a real diversity of flavors. But I think there's going to be a couple of things that are going to tangle it up. One, how much money will people continue to pay for for booze that does not get them drunk? Yeah. It doesn't have the stimulants, but it has the flavor profile. Do we even care? Well, I mean, I think it's novel right now, but I just I think it's going to hit a limit. I do think in the short term, it is really the first time that restaurants have ever been able to monetize it and i think that's valuable because suddenly you don't have to be the asshole if you're choosing to like not drink that drink yeah um i think this is a moment and my um kind of glib joke that probably does have like a seed of truth in it is i know that gen z is drinking less but just wait until they get mortgages i mean come on yeah i know that's gonna be when they're like 70 because no one makes any money, and they spend it all on N.A.

44:53Martinis. But it used to be avocado toast. Now it's N.A. Martinis. No, I think that's a really good point about when buying power changes for these individuals. It's interesting that you switch automatically into talking about these N.A. spirits, these bottles. I'm not going to name the brands. Because I totally agree that this is an absolute fad, and there is a real why there. We're working on with a great writer, a piece that we'll probably publish sometime in November about the search for the N.A. martini and the why around it. And she really noodles on this. So we'll be publishing that. And really, I guess when I think of NA, I almost move away from that trend and think about the way that NA beers, the way that mineral water, the way that products that are kombucha, you mentioned that, and it's never going to be cool to drink kombucha.

45:49So I'm not implying that, but how these products are going to - The kombucha lobbyists come in after you. I mean, listen, get in touch, kombucha company. We can chat. Big kombuchas. Yeah, no doubt. I love it. But I think like the idea of switching away from not the NA cocktail with the fake mezcal, because I think that's fading, but more so like NA products with actual terroir, so to speak, or just, you know, origin. finding a place on these menus and having it be a really robust like why isn't there a great NA craft beer bar in New York I mean it's strange to me or at least a really big list that has the small guys and not just athletic because I'm sorry athletic is is not the only one and it's still at these very accomplished places it is the only one and it's shocking to me so there's a bunch of different pieces of that um let's throw the terroir thing out first um if you are de alcoholizing your terroir is gone truth truth that's that is a that is a manipulated product it's why um you know there's little moments of na wine that are doing well but i na wine i mean the french are like struggling with this now germans are great at it though well the germ yeah but okay but but germany which is the thing i was going to get to next um there is a long tradition of NA beers.

47:13And that's because beer drinking is so much a part of the culture that, that, you know, there has always been these kind of, you know, these, these zero beers. And so I do think the beer thing will hold because I think that, you know, there is kind of a culture around beer drinking could be craft beer could be, you know, like dive bar beer, where, you know, you want to hang out in a dive bar and drink, like, you know, drink NA beer and still feel like you can like watch the game do whatever eat your nachos like i think that will absolutely take hold that you see has taken hold in europe for a long long time the wine thing you know i think it will find there'll be like a handful that will do fine but like in the end there they become kind of generic products i mean i'm sure like they'll you know maybe like an na prosecco yeah sure why not Not, you know, like replacing products that don't have like that much identity to begin with.

48:09What you did mention, I think, is, you know, like could it be mineral water? It could be like LaCroix. I am a complete addict for Waterloo, Waterloo ginger citrus. That is that is my product. Shout out. Yeah. But, you know, look, like I like drinking it. It's, you know, it's like the flavor works. It feels like grown up. It doesn't feel sugary, you know. And again, I think if there's context for people to feel comfortable around it, that's great. And frankly, I am always talking about shrinking the wine business in a good way in that I don't need people to drink more. I need them to drink things that are meaningful to them.

48:47And I think there is a part of NA that will find a happy home there. Yeah. So, John, what's next for you? I want to get an update in terms of your book output. And at Resi, you are probably still touring the book. I see on Instagram, you pop up events quite often. That's a really fun event that you always host and do a great job. But what's on the horizon for you? Yeah. So year two of the book tour. Yeah. Awesome. Congrats. And really, buy John's books. And this is from you is like the biggest praise of all because you guys built a freaking epic book tour. Oh, thanks, buddy. I mean, game recognized game.

49:26You got your you're doing it as well. So, yeah. So, I mean, you know, at this point, I think wherever, you know, could be France, Europe. I mean, we're going to do like a, you know, Scandinavian thing at some point. There's, you know, if I'm going somewhere and there's someone fun I want to do something with, that's great. You know, Resi overall is is killing it. I'm growing. We, you know, like for sure, there's going to be lots of plans to keep growing into 2025. It's a rare thing to say in food media, but we are very, very fortunate. For Mimi, New French is working on the French edition, which is huge to get the French to actually publish an English language book written by an American about France.

50:12But Hachette is, I think, set to publish in 2025. So incredibly excited about that. there is another book in the mix that's coming it is not about wine speaking about beverages it is about sake it's probably the first book I'll co-author so that don't know that may be 2026 a little bit TBD there are some other wine books in the mix we're still sorting out exactly what they are so I'm going to maintain an aura of mystery but I'm actually trying to line up like several of them because I think there's a lot more to say including about France which is probably about as far as I'll go but you know not writing the new Spanish wine I'm not writing the new Italian wine I wish someone well in trying to do that and 20 years from now they can come back listen to that episode because you talk about it's about a nine year journey to write this book exactly it's not an overnight thing yeah and so yeah there's you know lots of fun writing you know lots of fun dining coverage again hoping to spend a lot of time kind of in Europe in the coming year having sort of you know coming down off a book tour and yeah just you know and I swear to God I'm going to send you some pitches for taste one of these yeah no I'd love to have you back on you've written some terrific work for us and I they're always memorable pieces John and this is taste we ask guests about the discerning taste so to close this interview you here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check are you ready i am ready i came prepared the best fruit so um for sheer hedonism um going with raspberries um but like honestly if i think about the fruit that makes me happiest um is like a great gala apple yeah gala is amazing breed but let's go back to raspberries you mean hedonism like you will like you know house like a few pints just on if i can yeah i mean like there's just i mean they are they are such a sensual fruit in the best way.

52:14So, yeah. Have you ever been given a piece of fruit by a winemaker or producer on their winery that you recall being exceptional? Yeah. So the Matthiasens in Napa are also, Jill is an incredible tree fruit grower, peaches and apricots, and yeah, some of the best I've ever had. Yeah. The worst vegetable. I thought about this a little bit because I'm a vegetable lover in general. Like, you know, I, you know, I don't like love Brussels sprouts, love eggplant. I think it's a tie for me between sunchokes, which I've just like, there's so many. Yeah. Mystifying. Don't mess with them raw either. Just don't do it.

52:55Well, for sure. But I'm just like, why, why did we, you know, there are many reasons to like go back and paleo it, but like this was never a thing that humans needed to eat. And patty pan squash. I just, I like, there's so many good squashes and like what, I, what, what is its purpose? I, you know. Discribe it. I'm sorry for our listeners who don't know it. It's like the one that looks like a, like a UFO. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just like, you know, there's, I can get so much pleasure from other squashes as it were. I'm sure, you know, the patty pan, the kombucha, big kombucha is coming after you.

53:25Big patty pans coming after me. Big coming after you. And I think we see them at the farmer's market. They're so novel. And we, we like grab out like six of them and then we're like, how do I do it? What? Do I cube it and roast it? Do I hollow them out and stuff them and roast them? Never going to really net out to be the best. Love that one. The best dessert, John. As a, not a chocolate hater, but a chocolate indifferent person. So this is where like the like Francophile in me comes out. It's again, kind of a tie between a milfoy and a croquembouche. Like the height of like French sort of pate de choux, puff pastry, like creamy things and pastry things.

54:02And in America, you can find incredible laminated pastry. Unreal. Laminated coming of age in America is like cause for joy. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. A restaurant in the world you are most excited to visit. So the restaurant I have been trying to get to forever, and I probably need to just get on it, is Morihiro in L.A. and this is the chef who used to have sushi mori, which when I was like in the mid 2000s, I would fly down from San Francisco to go have my birthday dinner there. And he like came back, is doing it. And it's just, you know, there's so many great sushi restaurants and like, you know, they're proliferating everywhere.

54:48At Rezi, we like did a whole omikase package and we'll probably do another one because everyone loves it. But he's just like, there is something perfect about his attention to detail. So it's kind of tied between that and getting back to the restaurant Kravon in Phnom Penh, which really was the first place I ever understood how great Khmer cuisine can be. Wow, that's a great choice. And I'm absolutely putting that on my list if I can get there. A restaurant you wish could come back from the dead. This is a real deep cut. But there was a Thai restaurant in Astoria in the 90s called Ubal's Kitchen that, you know, was – that's where I got turned on to, like, the full depth of Thai food and, like, really understood what traditional Thai cooking was like.

55:38And it was interesting. Like, it had a following. Like, I found out about it because Eric Asimov, ironically, who now is The Times' wine critic, wrote about it when he was doing the 25 and under column. And, you know, was it like the best Thai food ever? No, but it was just it was such a like perfect place that was foundational for me. I love that. But that pick and I'm imagining it's on Woodside. And there's like right on Steinway Street. Oh, it's on Steinway. Almost like almost near LaGuardia. Oh, wow. Obol's Kitchen. I never heard of that. It's a it's a nice memory. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food.

56:15Paris. Yeah. That wasn't gonna be hard. No. No, it's definitely you. And, you know, when you go there, I'm sure, I mean, you live there some of the years. So you probably have like your, give us like the two places. I'm sorry, this is such a bad question. But for our listeners. No, I love this question. I'm going to give you three places, actually. Le Servant, which Tatiana, she's the wife of Bertrand, who has Septim. She is an extraordinary cook. It's actually a restaurant I reviewed for the art of eating. Oh, cool. like 2016 i'm gonna say and to me it's just like the quintessence of where paris is now uh la saint sebastian um danny um is one of the best wine directors i've ever seen one of the greatest winelists in paris um her husband slash partner um tomaz runs deck in donahue which is kind of the first like real sort of craft um brewery um and it just um it's interesting they they have these like their chef for a while was like mexican american then they had an australian guy i think they have another australian now like it's it's this it is again like this perfect neo bistro number three is sir mayor um olive is one of the great seafood chefs in paris um and it's it's the sister restaurant of la verbole which was again like the primordial natural wine bar but this canal saint martin we all went there we all we've all put it on our map yeah yeah and i but like all again like olive is uh is the wife of verbole's owner manager uh and um and yeah it's just such beautiful seafood so those are like those are my those are the places that are like when people like going to paris can't miss and those are the three i love it last one your favorite sandwich uh the italian uh sub slash hoagie slash hero slash you know whatever regionalism you prefer um i mean look it's like there is an absolute mastery to that sandwich you know you could get it as a muffaletta down in new orleans but it's just you know the layering the like the acid you got to get a bunch of like you know banana peppers or cherry peppers on there maybe throw some mayonnaise on it i am a i am a deep anti-mayo person yep yep um so um but so hell no is the answer hell no some vinegar some vinegar vinaigrette like you know it just not not to throw shade on a perfect jambon burr um which is a thing of beauty indeed and i'll give one more Paris saying, Caractère de Cochon, which is a shop literally dedicated to ham, you know, will make you not just the best jambon berre of your life, but like the jambon berre of your choosing with whatever ham of their like 80 or 100 you want.

58:54It is a thing of beauty, but in, you know, in defense of American maximalism, go with an Italian sub. Jon Bonnet, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Hey, truly a pleasure, always.

59:16My name is Leila Heller, and I'm the author with Laia Havujavi, Leila Sharif, and Bar Dadekoyan of Persian Feasts. I live in between New York and Dubai and I have an art gallery in New York for the last 42 years and an art gallery in Dubai for the last 10 years.

59:42This book is basically the life story of my mother, Nahi June, and it is not just a cookbook with 100 recipes. It's really a storybook and every recipe has a story. And there are also many different chapters on the celebrations and feasts of the Persian culture. These are all Zoroastrian cultures which were passed down generation after generation for the last 3000 years. It is also a book that talks about the health benefits of Persian spices, Persian herbs, Persian teas, which oils to use. So there's a health benefit also to buying this book. And there are also three amazing art historians, scholars, curators who've written about the role of Persian food in Persian art.

1:00:49from the Sasanians 2 ,000 years ago to the court of Shabbos and feasting in the 16th century, all the way to the 19th century Qajar courts, the modern Iran, and then the contemporary times. So there's an art aspect to it. There is a family history to it. There is, you know, recipes with stories behind them of you know what was the significance of the recipe and where it originated from and why and where these recipes were used during what season what festival what different celebrations weddings funerals or every day or for winter for summer and so it is a storybook

1:01:49so this book started because my mother had been for years putting together her recipes that were passed from generation to generation from her great-grandmother to her grandmother to her aunts and mother and then passed on from my mother and grandmother to me basically she had started working on her cookbook many years ago but then different things stopped her from going full force and doing it and then she was she passed away because a car hit her on the sidewalk where she was walking and so this project sort of was never finished and during COVID Fai then approached me to do a Persian cookbook I always knew that since my mom is not there I have to follow her legacy and her wishes and to do this cookbook.

1:02:43But I also knew my mom cooked with three of my friends who were younger than me and who always reached out to my mom for recipes, for guidance in cooking once they got married and or, you know, for other reasons. And so I really wanted to include them because this was, you know, they cooked with my mom. So they knew so many stories about her and their mothers were best friends or mother-in-laws were best friends with my mother. So I just knew that I had to work with my three co-authors to make this book, you know, the special book it has become. So we started working on the cookbook. And then because I'm from the art world and my mother was also so much, she was a collector.

1:03:35She also supported my business by cooking meals for every opening of mine, every dinner of mine at the gallery, every lunch of mine at the gallery. So my dinners and lunches at the gallery became really famous in New York. And so I just could not use any more, any caterers because people would ask, are you cooking? Is your mom cooking? And then they would come.

1:04:06And, you know, food is art. You know, the art of cooking is an art. And food and art are very, very close because they're both appreciation of beauty and of good taste and also celebrations, you know. So they're very intertwined. And that's when I decided to definitely bring in scholars to talk about the role of food in different points in the history of Persia.

1:04:44Well, my favorite recipe is Fesendran, which is pomegranate molasses and pomegranate juice with ground walnuts and chicken or duck. It is a delicious meal that is dark because you toast the walnuts for a long time. And then you crush them and you crumble them in a blender. And then you add the pomegranate juice and the pomegranate molasses to it. And saute the chicken or duck on the side and then merge them together. and you know my American friends always say call it chocolate chicken but it has nothing to do with chocolate but it's delicious because it's tangy but it can have a sweetness to it as well and it is just an amazing blend of tastes

1:05:50my best surprise and I know it would have made my mom very happy was that Hermès in Paris is displaying my book in their windows. When I saw it, I was in Athens. And then I jumped in the sea. And I started because I didn't want people to hear me. And I started talking out loud to my mom. I said, Mom, we did it. Can you imagine she loved Hermès? Who doesn't? Right? So, you know, I said, we did it. We did it. We're in Hermès in Paris. Like, what else do you want.