506: Aquaponics and the Big Dream of Oko Farms with Yemi Amu

27:57And that must feel at least one gratifying point in an unfortunate thing that has to happen. Oh, absolutely. I remember when we first built the farm and built our first farm in Bushwick and we had people come from everywhere. It's just amazing. I couldn't believe there were this many different people who were interested in like helping to build a farm. And then in 2021, when we moved to the Williamsburg site, people came from L.A. People came from like New Jersey. People came from like so many different parts of the city and even outside of the city to help build a farm. This is what I mean. Like putting a farm together is just it exemplifies hope and like optimism and community and just belief in a better world.

28:45Honestly, I can't think of anything that exemplifies it because it takes a lot of faith to think that you can put something in the ground and it's going to feed you in like X amount of months, you know, or whatever. And people coming together for that is always a beautiful thing. And taking down the farm, even though I was sad to do it, it was also really hopeful to see so many people who are like, hey, we're here for you. Yeah, I like that. And I think on the hope and optimism train, thinking about the future of Oko Farms and how you can get there, like what kinds of if people are listening to this and they want to help and they don't necessarily have a 20 ,000 square foot piece of land in New York, like what kind of help are you looking for in this moment?

29:29Honestly, the beautiful thing is that people have been coming to us about everything, whether it's 20 ,000, whether it's 2 ,000. They're like, I have a basement if you want it. Where there's like 400 square feet. And we're happy for all of it, honestly, because it's just helping people like visualize like green spaces in different areas. So I just want to encourage people, you know, anyone, you know, who has space, you know, it doesn't have to be up to 20 ,000 square feet. It could be smaller. reach out to us and let us know. As long as it's available, there's electricity, there's water, it's accessible.

30:13I think those are the things that we're looking at. We've looked at some rooftop spaces, which is also great. You know, we've looked at, we've talked to someone who's invited us to schools. You know, there's been a lot of, it's honestly helping to also like stretch our imagination of what the new space can be, or maybe it's new spaces. Right. Instead of one space, maybe it's like several spaces that collectively add up to like 20 ,000 square feet. You know, maybe it's three. Maybe it's four. We're also open to that at this point. It just means more aquaponics. Yeah. In more communities. A decentralized farm.

30:52Yeah. And one timeline also. Really, that's the vision for New York is to have farms everywhere. Every rooftop. Yeah. Like everywhere that there's space to put a farm. Why can't we? You know, that's the dream. And the timeline is we would love to get started next year in March. Yeah. April latest is to like get the farm going so we can continue to grow food and do all of the programming that we love to do and people love us for. Well, I'm manifesting that alongside you and everybody else. And while we're talking and you have your kind of soapbox moment, I'm curious if there's anything about urban farming or aquaponics that you wish just more people could know and understand.

31:32Hmm. That's a good question. It depends on the day. Yeah. On this day, I guess. On this day, I want to say that because New Yorkers or just people who live in cities are so disconnected from nature, we don't understand how intrinsic urban farming is to our survival. And I say that because we survived COVID and we saw how devastating it was for New York City in particular. A lot of our high death rates were just because there were so many of us living with like food related illnesses. And so many New Yorkers are vulnerable and don't have access to food security. And urban farming gives us an opportunity not only to address climate change, but also to feed people.

32:27And, you know, food is a fundamental human right, you know, to create beautiful spaces that are productive and feed people. It's just so important to our survival. And I don't think we understand it. And we shouldn't have to leave the city to engage in nature. We should be able to engage in nature right where we live. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that's the thing is I don't we talk about housing a lot, which is so important. but it should be housing and. It should be housing and. And also we have so much housing in New York that landlords are sitting on and not renting to people. And that's, I think, a huge thing that isn't often addressed.

33:07And we're talking about developing land is like using the housing we already have, using the space we already have. And it's also not affordable. The rent is too damn high. Yeah. The rent is too damn high and there's not enough aquaponics in New York City. Yeah. Like urban farming is essential to the future of the world. Most of the world is going to be living in cities very soon. How are we feeding ourselves? That's a question we should always be answering. How are we feeding ourselves? Where's our food coming from? Who's responsible for growing our food? How is it being grown? It doesn't matter who you are, where you are.

33:44These are very important questions. And urban farming helps to answer all of it. I agree. And I think also, like, even if urban farming can't produce at the same scale as some of the places that we're getting our food from, just having the knowledge of understanding, like, this is what a piece of sugar cane looks like when it's growing. This is the process of how things can work together is really a powerful tool to just understand the world in general. Yes. To understand how your food is grown and how it gets to you and the impact of that food on the environment. Yeah, that's a very powerful tool because then we can push for policy and push for things to like help improve it.

34:20And yes, we cannot grow at scale, but I do think collectively a lot of many different farms collectively can do a lot. And we've yet to see that. And it would be interesting to see what it would look like. Yeah, to understand the full potential. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you talking it through with me a bit today. And before we close, I want to play a rapid fire game with you. So I'll give you a question. And you can just tell me the first answer that comes into your head. Let's go. Okay. Your favorite thing to cultivate at Oko Farms. Okay. So it changes from year to year. But this year it was the taro.

34:57Because I love it. You get the root that's edible. You get leaves that are edible. And it just keeps sprouting. It's like a forever food. You plant it once. And then it just continues to produce all of these offshoots. In the back of my head, I have like an apocalypse like preparation kit. Oh, of course you do. What do you grow in the apocalypse? And tarot is on that list. Okay. When the apocalypse happens, I'm coming to you also because I feel like this is how we're going to survive is the aquaponics. And I love tarot. So that's the perfect place to start. Your favorite cookbook right now? My current favorite cookbook is My Everyday Lagos, written by Yohan de Komalafe.

35:43It's a beautiful homage to Nigerian food and West African culture in general. I love it. Your favorite restaurant in New York right now? Oh. Big question. I'm going to say this because the staff makes fun of me about all the time. But there is this Thai restaurant on Bedford that's called Williamsburg Thai. And that is the place I go to on days that I'm so tired from all of that farm work. And their food is just like delicious. And I love it. And it just always makes me feel good to go there and eat their food after a hard day. Your go-to bagel order? Oh, turkey, egg and cheese on a bagel. Getting a flashback to your childhood of getting all the extra turkey.

36:36It's so funny because I don't even like turkey that much, but it was just the point.

36:43Your go-to late night bodega snack? Oh, I love plantain chips. Sweet plantain chips. Do you have a preferred brand or just whatever sweet ones you see? Whatever sweet ones I see, yeah. A kitchen hack or piece of wisdom for cooking that you think more people should know about? Just a very basic thing when you're using a cutting board. Just have a wet napkin underneath it so it doesn't slide. I think I'm always correcting people when I see their tuffling board sliding. And just good knife skills. Yeah, that one is a good knife skill, I guess, also by extension. Most underrated piece of kitchen equipment?

37:23Honestly, the knife. I'm sorry. You can do so much with a kitchen knife. Is it underrated, though? I mean, it is the most basic one, but maybe people aren't hyping it up enough. Yeah. So I think we could say it's underrated. Yeah. Even sometimes, like, instead of using a blender, I'll just start chopping because it's so meditative. And there's less to clean. And there's less to clean. Yeah. Yeah. I just like chopping. Sometimes, like, mincing and slicing is so meditative. Yeah, I feel that way too. Okay, finally, a fictional food scene like from a movie or TV show that you wish you could magically eat in real life.

38:00Fictional. Okay, this is not fictional. I'm sorry. But I'm obsessed with the Great British Baking Show. And I just really want to taste it. Everything. I just really wish I could. Because, first of all, I don't know half of what those things are. And I just want to taste them. Especially when I'm here like it's like matcha and curry or some like random ingredient I've never heard of. I really want to taste and I want to argue with Paul Hollywood and be like, you don't know good bakes. I do. This is delicious. I would love for you to be a guest judge on The Great British Bake Off if only to watch you take Paul Hollywood down a peg.

38:41Well, I love that. And I really appreciate you coming on the show and talking with me. And I hope we can do another episode in the future when Oco Farms has a new home. Yes. Thank you so much for having me and for just highlighting Oco Farms. I appreciate it. It's a pleasure. Thank you.

39:08Joshua David Stein, welcome back to This is Tastes. How are you, my friend? Oh, I couldn't be better, Matt. We're not going to talk about the parking tickets. No. So let's move past that. We'll get to the S-square list, which is terrific. Congratulations on releasing that this week. But first off, where are you going in New York right now, restaurant-wise? I know you just did this massive project, but I'd love to ask New Yorkers, where are you going right now? Well, the truth is that my daily eating habits are wildly mixed, depending on whether I have my kids or not. The places I'm eating, I mean, there's a lot of New York places on the list.

39:44and it's no joke, I love them. Like Knox and Demo are go-tos for me. Two places that opened after the list closed, which I think are wonderful, are Kiko and Accrue. Oh yeah, Accrue, sure. Accrue is an Australian tasting menu for 95 bucks in the West Village and it's mind-blowingly good. And Kiko is the sweetest, most delicious, this vibiest room, I guess just north of Tribeca. But a place that I go to all the time is Lore in Park Slope, where I live. I live adjacent to Park Slope, and it's kind of modern Indian cuisine. And it's one of those restaurants, I was just thinking about it on the way here.

40:33It's one of those restaurants that's never going to get on a B &R list. It's not going to be on any lists. It's just not that kind of place, I guess. But the food is so spectacular. So I go there quite often. Why can't it be on the list? You're making the list. I ask this with all respect because I know what you're saying, but I'd love to get your mindset when you say it can't be on a list. Well, it's too old for our list. Agreed. So sure. Right. That's true. It's already been open a few years. Yeah, it's been open for three or four years or something like that. So it's past its new phase. But there are lists that capture the zeitgeist that aren't all about new restaurants.

41:08I mean, to get real, to be a standard restaurant and get on the list like that, you need PR. PR is really expensive. The restaurant world is really hard. Margins are really small. And the question is, like, do you have the extra$5 ,000 a month to maybe get a mention? Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. And the second part of that is, does the mention actually put butts in the seat? Yeah. You'd hope like Esquire, we're looking at your building right now in our office. It's a big publication and it has wide reach. But still, there's a lot of noise out there about restaurants. The recommendation engines come from multiple places now.

41:50And does a magazine article actually drive butts in the seats? Yeah. I mean, I love our package. And I love it exists online. And I do think that we are one of – I mean, I'll just say it. I think we're one of the most prestigious lists that exist out there. Absolutely. I think there's a whole range of ways to recommend restaurants to move the needle. We are one for sure. But there's others. Thankfully, I'm not in the business of PR, so I don't have to think about it that much. But knowing how hard the business is, the windows are narrow and small. Yeah, to get on these new lists, especially with new is in the title.

42:29And on our show, we try with three things at the end of our show. We try to highlight restaurants that aren't brand new. we try to do our part. I've always wanted to do like a best five-year-old restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Talking to, I mean, I'm sure you're the same. You talk to chefs and restaurateurs, critics, writers, whatever. Sometimes a restaurant hits its stride in year three or year four. And right now, I don't think there's any list that focuses on that, which is a little bit of a moment. I would say the only list that really does that is the New York Times 100 that they put out once a year now, that's the one to me is the most comprehensive and without a timestamp required.

43:13Yeah, this is probably a separate conversation, but I think I would want a timestamp. I think you need to slice it. That's why I think BNR works really well. It needs to be for me like apples to apples. So you have best new restaurant is apples to apples. You have best five-year-old restaurant or something like in the five to 10-year range, that also seems apples to apples to me. When you start getting into best restaurants, I think what you gain in scope, sometimes you lose a little bit in usability in a way. It's really broad. Yeah, I agree. Okay, let's talk about Esquire. Your package, which debuted this week, is comprehensive.

43:57I agree. It's really terrific because you did the work. you and your fellow writers on the package. I'd like for you to name them by name who contributed to this list. Now, let me ask you, first off, is how do you as a team at Esquire think about the word best? How do you actually like go into these visits and say like this is actually qualifies for a best? Yeah. Well, let me first shout out the team, which is Jeff Gornier, Omar Manoon, Amethyst Ganaway, who's joining us for the first time this year, and me, Joshua Davidstein. I love that group. And I don't know Omar, but Amethyst has been a contributor on Taste for a number of stories.

44:43And, of course, Jeff, the legend. Legend in the game. Just terrific. And yourself, of course, legend in the game, too. So when the four of you get together with your team at Esquire and you're in that room or you're on that Zoom talking about your visits, what are you talking about? Obviously, Best is very subjective. And there's four of us. And we have different life experiences, different conditioning, different tastes, different proclivities, different areas of expertise. So it's really important for us to be sort of integrated and think as one unit. You know, if I had to crystallize what we're looking for, it's not just one thing.

45:23It's like a variety of metrics, like a sound engineer's soundboard, meaning like, okay, you have originality. You have execution. You have geographic diversity. You have culinary diversity. You know, you have all of these different metrics. And the magic, or it's not really magic. You know what it's like? The sauce. The sauce. It's like a master de kave, like a champagne mixer. It's like how we mix those things is what gives the Esquire list its suchness. It's wonderful that you say it that way because I totally agree reading through the list because you're not weighting geography because you could say New York is the most competitive town.

46:11So you should have the most restaurants from New York. But you don't do that. You go to Cincinnati, which is amazing to see a Cincinnati restaurant on this list. So when you're in that room, are you guys like just debating it and like really trying to cut down the list? Because there isn't a number on it. I haven't even counted. No, I think last year we had 50, which was a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And I think now it's around 30, maybe a little bit more. um jeff was the lead this year and i think jeff had the final say in what got ranked where and that is how it is no we don't we can cut that out no you can keep that in yeah uh i mean you gotta have a ball you gotta have like somebody who makes the decision of course in the editorial you can't just have it's not group think i mean editing a magazine you've edited magazines you've been a tough job jeff's been doing this for a really long time um but i I think that each one of us probably has our own internal mix of how you value things such as originality, story, execution, vibe.

47:19So what I look for personally in a restaurant is I want the chef to be bringing something personal from their own soul. And I don't mean, by the way, that I am like a stickler for biological, biologic or biographical essentialism. Like you can cook outside of your culture. Like Bastia in Philadelphia is like a really good example. Tyler Akin is not Corsican. And yet he's, I hate this saying, I hate this phrase, but like he's done the work. And he knows. And what he's cooking combines skill and this palette of flavors and techniques. And I want to look at a menu and be excited. I eat out a lot.

48:10And I see a lot of restaurants. And you can – there's always this game that chefs are playing where sometimes the menu is quite straightforward and not that challenging. And then when you get the food, you're like, oh, shit. Shoot. Can we curse? Yeah. Fuck. No, I'm kidding. I mean, I think you're saying like understated, right? It over delivers. Well, I think, okay. So I think the balance that happens is a restaurateur and a chef needs people to order things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? If it's too abstract or avant-garde, it might freak people out. So yeah, they might just call it a skirt steak with a au poivre sauce.

48:52and maybe you get it and it's something not totally different but it's like a real riff on that. So stipulated. But I still think that when I look at a menu I want to be jazzed. Like I want to be excited. I'm still super, super excited about going out to eat. Like I love it. I never understood and still don't understand people in our position who are jaded or over it. It's like if you're over it, get out of the game. Yeah, you know what your shelf life has done when you start complaining about a press invite to a dinner. I mean, I hate that shit. We are the luckiest people in the world. Thank you for saying that.

49:25We very much are. We really appreciate it. And let me ask you about market fit. I think that there's probably some level of acknowledgement in your list for a restaurant to meet their market where they're at. Because like a diner in Cincinnati or diner in Phoenix is not the same as a LA diner in many ways. And so like you can't expect all the Avant stuff happening in certain markets because it just won't sell, right? Yes. And I think it's maybe the opposite. Like – I love it. Yes, you're right and you're wrong. No, no, no. I love it. I mean pushback, please. This is great. You're right in the sense that when I travel around and I'm eating at different restaurants around the country, I can't bring my New York hat and evaluate it in New York terms.

50:17And I'm not talking about quality and I'm not talking about anything like that. I'm talking about the dining experience. It's not on the list, but I recently went to Emerald's in New Orleans. And it was so showy. Was there like three TVs when you entered of him? No, no. No, Emeril's, which is run by his son EJ now, is proper fine dining. Oh, cool. Like serious proper fine dining, white tablecloths. I think they had gloves on. It's just very formal. You go back, you meet EJ, you meet Emeril was there very sweetly when we were there. There's a lot of, well, the chef is doing this tonight. Like in New York, that's not cool.

51:04Like I don't want to know what – don't talk to me about the chef. Don't be formal. Don't talk to me about the chef. I want really fancy, really well-made food in a casual – that's just where we are right now. And that's different in New Orleans. And for instance, also different in Atlanta, for instance, and in other places. And so it's like I don't – I can't go there and be snobby and crummy about it because it's like, oh, man, it's so showy. It's like, yeah, that's what, this is what's happening here. I think being someone who travels around so much, I'm also, I don't want to say surprised because I've been doing it long enough that I'm not surprised, but I'm consistently impressed with the level of dining and sophistication in smaller cities or cities that aren't New York.

51:57And even though we have a lot of great restaurants in New York, I actually think You get it's easier to get more exciting food in other places for a host of reasons, which I feel like we've talked about on podcasts prior. Just the the level of pressure in New York to have butts in seats consistently, the food cost, the labor cost, the real estate cost. Tends to make restaurants either be very well capitalized. Or a little bit conservative. Yeah. I mean, the turn is everything in New York. And like the rushed service is a real thing in New York. You have to. And also just like the waiting because that service isn't hitting the number and the overbooking and all the complaints we make about, you know, waiting for restaurants in New York.

52:48Right. But I almost mean even more fundamentally than that, like the choice of what kind of cuisine will fly. Like let's open like Vinay in Minneapolis is one of my favorite restaurants and it's run by a Hmong chef, Ye Vang. Can't wait to visit. Oh, it's amazing. It's like truly a sort of like life affirming experience. and there's other restaurants that I think in Minneapolis didn't make the list for whatever reason but were like like I had some of the best food in a 48 hour period in Minneapolis one of the reasons why is because it's not so painfully expensive to open a restaurant you know like you have Minneapolis you have a developed market of diners with some level of affluence or the ability to go out.

53:48Yeah, there's big corporations there. There's people who come from all over the world to live in Minneapolis for a variety of reasons. It's a great city. You have access to great produce. And that allows you to have this amazingly vibrant restaurant scene. Tell me about Demo. Demo's on the list, and I know you made that visit, and I'm hearing great things about Demo all year. And there's a lot of great restaurants in New York. We're in a great period right now. We kind of are in a great period. It's easy to do the year-end, say New York had a down year and LA had an up year. But listen, New York is really, really good right now.

54:21And we have had many chefs on. But what is special about Demo? Well, Demo, to me, is an example of one of those small restaurants that is just a human-scale restaurant. I think that's the thing that I've been thinking so much about. Like, we have these great big battleships, which are great. And what I really love are these, they're not passion projects in the sense that they're just for fun. Like, they're serious restaurants and their businesses. It's run by the chef Q Nguyen, who I used to eat his food at, there's a restaurant in Greenpoint called Cool World. Oh, wow. Do you remember that? It was a blip on the map.

55:05It was a blip. But man, they had the best steak au proff with an aerated au proff sauce. Yes. And crystal spiced fries. And I loved it. I went probably more than anyone else. I feel like that restaurant was run by folks who are maybe new to the restaurant game. There was maybe some challenges there for being new to restaurants. Also, that space is a little bit cursed. It is a little cursed, yeah. Anyway, so Demo is all Father Demo Square. I think it might be Demo, but Demo. It's small, long, narrow, kind of like a wine bar. It has a great wine program, but it's just Q and Dina Fon, I think, is his chef de cuisine.

55:51And they turn out remarkably delicious Neo Bistro fair. You know, and it's a kind of small place that you go on a cold night and you get a glass of wine, you get the lobster au poivre or you get the crispy rice. And it is just like the perfect, it's a perfect way to spend an evening. Zooming out, and this doesn't have to be for your Esquire work specifically, but given your travels, give us a city that really, really impressed you this year that maybe we don't talk about enough. I don't think we talk about Minneapolis enough. To me, that has, like, the best confluence of factors that give rise to a fertile restaurant scene.

56:39I love Cincinnati. Cincinnati's on the list. Yeah, I'm impressed by that choice. You know, I think Cleveland's got a great scene. And certainly Pittsburgh has been given lots of press. But Cincinnati does not get its love. Did you hang out with Keith Pandolfi? Not this time. I think last time I did. He's a longtime New Yorker, but moved out to Cincinnati years ago. Now he runs the local paper food section. Great journalist. Yeah. I think Cincinnati has like a smaller scene and like the way geographically it's set up is a little bit, I think, trickier for restaurants. Because from my understanding, like the downtown's not like quite as vibrant and you have like Covington and these areas around it.

57:26Yeah. Wild weed, which we included, was one of my favorite meals. Oh, cool. I just was blown away by... It's a guy who used to be a catbird seat, and his wife is from Cincinnati. And it's so exciting. It's so exciting, and it's not that expensive. Everyone is jazzed to be there. People who work there are jazzed to work there. People who are eating there are jazzed to eat there. And you can feel that spirit. yeah um and then the other perennial place which i love going back to is houston like i've been back this is my third year going back and it's almost like just now am i really grasping oh this is how the city works so yeah houston cincinnati and minneapolis forever those are great cities i love that you mentioned houston i got to go to tatamo last september loss and that's been written about quite a bit but well I think not to toot our own horns I think I was the first one to write about Totimo on a national scale and that came about because I was eating somewhere else in Houston and someone was telling me about this Masa samurai you know like good word and this was his this was his passion this was his mission so I went to this um strip mall with the mirrored windows and it was not crowded it's small and it was also not crowded next to a church yeah like literally in the strip mall next to it is a church and it blew my mind yeah yeah and it's like those little things man that's what i love about this job i love the big restaurants i love 425 i love the levodor is not big but it has like a pedigree right but i love that people, chefs, restaurateurs are showing up as their authentic selves and communicating their love of food to diners.

59:20And that's something that we can pick up on. This is like a privilege to be able to do. Not to say I don't want to be compensated and be able to pay my bills, like all that stuff. But in terms of a job, to be able to have a platform to celebrate chefs and restaurants, it's such a pleasure. Tell me about your restaurant of the year Four Kings in the Bay Area. Many of my friends in San Francisco have raved about it chefs in particular and really I can't wait to visit but this is your restaurant of the year how did you all come to this conclusion? Well this is what I don't always get to overlap and sort of like ratify or whatever other restaurants but I was in San Francisco and I ate at Four Kings with Omar I think the thing about Four Kings is not only is a cooking on point, like the squab, which is mentioned in the pieces, like, you know, if you don't mind looking in the face of the thing that you're eating, it's like a delicious experience.

1:00:20And I don't mind that. But it kind of embodies the story of Chinatown, San Francisco Chinatown in particular, which has been and continues to be threatened by forces of gentrification being revitalized. And it embodies the story of the energy still being there. So I think, you know, it's a good example of a restaurant. This is a good example, I think, of looking at the mix, like on the Esquire soundboard. Yeah. It's like story, like the story's there, the narrative's there. It's not just about the restaurant. It's about the restaurant in its place and culture. Okay, let's talk about the restaurant itself.

1:01:01Like strong vibe, really fun. Line out the door. Let's talk about the cuisine, the cooking. It's like top-notch Cantonese cuisine. So I think you have all of those things together and it's almost like unassailable. Of course, it's, you know, the best new restaurant. Are you doing this next year? I would like to, yeah. When do you start reporting? Because, I mean, we've had Rafael Brion from Food & Wine, Kate Kassin from Bun App, and it seems like for those publications, it's like a constant job. It's constant. It's a job. I mean, it's really big. And to make sure you do it right, you have to get on planes and go to these places and visit.

1:01:39Are you planning to do that? Yeah. I mean, I think for us already, you know, this list closed to go to print a couple of months ago. And I am obviously keeping track of where I've been eating and I eat constantly out. As it gets closer, I would say I start traveling more and more. Right now, it's nice to be at home for a little while. As you know, I'm working on a bunch of other projects too. but yeah I'll start traveling probably February, March Is there a city that is on your radar that you want to go to? Huh I tend not to think so much in terms of cities as I do in regions but it's kind of like everything needs to come together you know like certainly I think like St.

1:02:33Louis is interesting to me places like Topeka, Kansas, Santa Fe. You know, speaking of other cities that I love, I love Phoenix. I think Phoenix has like an amazing food scene which no one talks about. I find it also really meaningful to go back to the cities over and over again because you start to develop a real understanding of those cities. So I hope to visit a lot of the ones that I went to last year. Yeah, Phoenix is cool. And I was able to go to Mesa and go to some incredible restaurants there. And it's a huge city. It's actually like – It's great. It's multiple cities. Cities, yeah. Cities.

1:03:15Scottsdale, Phoenix, Mesa, you know. What's wild, there's no full-time restaurant critic in that region. I know. Isn't that crazy? Maybe I should move. I think – I mean, yeah. If there's a publication that's willing to support it, I just think that they don't have the support, which is like shocking for a city with so much tourism for a variety of reasons and a great scene. Well, sidebar, but I think it's because Phoenix has lifestyle magazines, but they're local press, like local press everywhere. The news is hard hit. Yeah. Let's talk about your other projects, because I always love to hear what you're working on.

1:03:47But first, the Tom Colicchio book, and we've had Tom in and we talked about it. What a tremendous book. I really enjoyed reading it. As I told Tom, I read it in a day. I just love the stories. What was that like? Oh, it's Tom's response. Huh. Good. Huh. He's like, you know, you need to take a couple laps to warm up with him. But I thought it was a great episode. And once you get him going. But I respect what you're saying because I know in the collaboration process, words flow at different rates. But in general, I thought it was terrific work. Thank you. What did you take away from that project?

1:04:22What I found working with Tom is it was by far the most difficult project in terms of getting him to trust me. And to the extent that he did, I think that really shows up in the book. But every other collaborator that I've worked with, it's kind of like, okay, tell me your feelings, whatever. And they will talk about their feelings. Tom does not talk about his feelings. And it was a real challenge, although I think we got there at the end. You know, there's a difference between telling me a story, right? Like, and these are your stories. These are the stories you've told before and you're retelling the story.

1:04:58That's not always the most impactful memoir. What you want are stories that are truly revealing of who you are, and you need to be able to reveal that. And if you're going to be working with a co-writer, you need to trust the co-writer enough to take care of those stories. In all honesty, I think that was a learning process for me because in the absence of getting some of those stories, I really put myself into the pathos of it because I had nothing else to write. And it's like, okay, let's talk about daddy issues because I have daddy issues. And then ultimately through the work, he made it clear that that was not accurate and not truthful for him.

1:05:44And so we had to go back and I had to say like, okay, if that's not it, fine. What is it for you? And I think ultimately what it was for Tom and is for Tom is he's just really good at cooking. He's been chronically underestimated because of his ADHD and from his educational background and his class background. All of a sudden, cooking put him in this world of very wealthy, very sophisticated people. And his life has been about negotiating that while staying true to himself and his roots. Love that you say that. It really shines through in the book. And I think going back to his history in New Jersey, you really tap into some great stories about the class background, about his very humble upbringing and his relationship with his mother and having a household that's divided.

1:06:35But then, you know, entering New York and just having that incredible, like the cool, the giraffe moments, just like incredible exposure to like the top of the top. Yeah. I mean, Tom, I think, came of age and started working in like a magical period of restaurants where it was still sort of small enough that you could hit all the major guys. Unfortunately, guys. Yeah. I mean, there were a fair number of women chefs, which he mentions in the book, but it was still not so fragmented, you know, and yet he could have the freedom to go off and do his own thing. Not only at Gramercy, which Gramercy is cooking, not maximalist, but like there's a lot of stuff going on.

1:07:19It's real market based. And then at Kraft, he really is like, OK, this is what I'm going to do. And he came up with that idea. And I think Kraft is like wildly successful in part because of his. I don't care. I'm just going to do it like mentality. Yeah. I mean, he goes on instinct and gut, obviously. And he's talk about his abilities. I mean, the guy is like clearly the sickest line chef. That was a little bit of the challenge writing the book is like if I wanted to talk about food cost and like what it's like on the line, we could go for hours. If I asked him something more emotional, it was harder.

1:07:57Like his time with Thomas Keller. Like I'm sure maybe that was a tough. No, more like, okay, well, when your dad kicked you out of your house, did you feel a certain way about it? Like were you sad? No, it's okay. No, it's fine. Yeah. It's like, okay. Was it though? Because I can only imagine, like, you know, like, that's what I mean by I was looking for all of this pathos and he wasn't there. The reason why it took so long, it took a long time to do that book. But the reason, one of the reasons it took so long is that you can only get ahead of the authors so far. You can help lead them, but you can't get so far ahead in terms of emotional vulnerability that they feel alienated from the text.

1:08:42Yeah. I'm glad we got it behind the scenes. It is such a terrific book. Pick it up. I have to ask you about Kwame. Are you working on anything with him? Because your two books with Kwame have been amazing, and they've certainly been published in concert with his incredible rise. I love the Chef's Table episode, which you feature in. And also Tatiana, of course, is what it is. It's New York's finest restaurant by many accounts. I've not been, but I think— You should go. Yeah, absolutely. Dogon, which is one of the best new restaurants in Esquire, list um yeah we are working on our third book cool um with tom pold who's in this building yeah and it's much more personal to kwame it's a cookbook and you know notes from a young black chef was more of a memoir although there were recipes my america was fruit of the african american african diaspora um kind of tracing kwame's own family life and this latest book is very much like a love letter to New York and his childhood and what he actually makes.

1:09:55You know, like being a chef, it's not like you have hours to make chef-like food at home. Yeah, and particularly what he's doing at Tatiana, which is not, you know, stuff you're going to do at home. Not easy. Not easy. Well, that's exciting. Yeah. Has the book been optioned, the first book? I feel like, you know, it needs... The first book has been optioned. Notes from a Young Black Chef has been optioned. Yeah, yeah. For a while, like Keith Stanfeld was attached, but I don't know what's going on with that now. Yeah. Would love to see that. Me too. Come to fruition. What else are you working on?

1:10:26I have to ask. Well, I just finished the Russ and Daughters cookbook. Amazing. Which is coming out next year, which I'm very excited about. Can't wait to have you back to talk about that and have the team there. I love that place. David Neyfeld is a chef from Kefiko. We have a book coming out called Dad, What's for Dinner? Cool. Greg Backstrom from Olmsted and Patty Ann's and Five Acres. We just finished or were shooting his book called Nothing Matters But Delicious, a radically honest cookbook. Yeah. I've seen it announced. It's cool. Yeah, I'm very excited about that. Both that one and David Neyfeld's book.

1:11:04I am just not into idealized – and Kwame's book, to be honest. I'm not into idealized cookbooks anymore. It's like, look, sometimes shit happens and it's not perfect and that's fine. Like, you don't need all of these ingredients. In fact, you actually, that is something that Tom, despite how difficult that process was, he really could distill, like really got the point across that recipes are a little bit bullshit. Yeah. Like just. That's his mantra for sure. And, you know, that book has really good recipes, but they were not easy to get out of him because you'd be like, okay, well, do you use like three garlic cloves or four?

1:11:44It's like, well, how much garlic do you want? You know, like just do what you – Wait, so you were doing the memoir and the recipe work as well on that book. Yeah, well, he has a wonderful chief of staff named Maya Land who was helping with the recipes. She was like integral. But yeah, I was doing – that's traditionally how I did it. And I think, you know, in Tom's case, he would just get annoyed. He'd be like, well, do you want half a red pepper? Do you want a full bell pepper? It's up to you. Just make sure the skin's crisp. This tracks so well with our conversation. So now when I'm writing cookbooks, I'm trying to be more honest about that.

1:12:27That's why I love Greg's book so much. Nothing matters. It just doesn't matter. like dry age leave it in your fridge don't leave it in your fridge cut it this way don't like who cares it doesn't really matter and I feel like our industry there's a pressure for us to make things really precise and long because then it's like look how much expertise we have and you don't actually need that much expertise I mean that's the instinct for sure with cookbook editing and publishing I also think that it's why like the front matter really matters. Yeah. And why like setting up Greg's book, because like obviously there's going to be tenants that he follows when cooking.

1:13:10I mean, there are some rules and some instincts that you have to capture in the manuscript, right? Yeah. A hundred percent. You know, Greg is like probably one of the best trained chefs I've ever worked with. And it's not that technique doesn't matter. It's just don't get caught up in the minutiae and if you mess something up don't give up just josh it find a way around it like well it's it's fixing mistakes or not even mistakes but like like deficiencies and in fact right now um or yesterday murray hall who's an amazing um photographer is shooting that book and i went to look at the shots and they're all perfect and i kind of was like you know what just mess it up sometimes your cod falls apart like in order to produce a book that really shows what life is like for the majority of people you have to get past all of these in-baked biases in a way like the the editor who wants it to be totally buttoned up the photographer the food stylist the prop stylist who wants it all to look perfect because that's how we're that's how we're sort of like acculturated to present food.

1:14:25And what I want to do with my cookbooks and the cookbooks I work on is have it be much less aspirational and have it be like, oh yeah, look, it's still pretty, but it's not perfect. Yeah. Like what's perfect? It's a fine line. I mean, it needs to be a document that is a piece of art in some ways. I mean, visually speaking, like I think at least here at Crown, we try to publish books that are beautiful in every respect, but real. Beautiful in every respect does not mean perfect in every respect. And that's to my point. I mean, my book, Career World, we shot it on location, and certainly there's some aggressive photos in there.

1:15:00And I think that's the way I like to do books. I'm a big fan of the documentary and not the studio. Just to bring it back to the Esquire's BNR, I mean, I think to me that that is what I'm always trying to celebrate is the human. like in every work that I do whether it's children's books whether it's co-author and cookbooks whether it's articles I'm writing or reviews or this list is human beings and vulnerability and frailty they need champions because we don't live in a culture where that is supported. So I want to take anything I can do, any platform I have to celebrate people showing up as their authentic and full selves.

1:15:46It's beautiful work you'd make. You really, when following that through, it really, it really, it really shows in your work. Let's close and talk a little bit about Jung because it's definitely, we've been talking about it on previous episodes, but I just have to say that it's terrific. And, and, you know, I share a love of Korean food and I know you do as well. And the work you do with Minggu and Nadia, what do you take out of the release of that book? That's been the most gratifying project for me to work on, at least in terms of adult cookbooks. Because as we travel around the country, it's so clear that it resonates with so many readers, mostly Korean Americans, some Koreans, who have never seen their han shik, Korean cuisine, and this one specific ingredient, jang, or it's a trio, gochujang, tanjang, and kanjang, haven't seen it be given the respect that it's due.

1:16:46And then to have that be in a book, a beautiful book, is really gratifying and validating. And I think I'm the co-author, right? It's like it's Minggu's expertise, but he doesn't speak English. So I was a words guy, you know, with his knowledge. And I think as a white guy, I think they funnily also really like that. OK, here's someone who took so much time and I spent years studying Chong and I really care about it. And I know like Nadia jokes that I'm probably like I know the most about Chong in the States. For sure. Yeah. Which is maybe true, which is like a funny – if that's true, that's funny to me.

1:17:29Yeah. Well, I mean English speaker at least. Yeah, for sure. It makes me feel really proud, to be honest, that I could have a part in that project. It's a great book. You should pick it up. It really – it dovetails with this rise in Korean-American cuisine, which has been – the year has been incredible. It dovetails to me with that idea of being human and doing projects that celebrate humanity. Like the Zhang producers and the artisanal Zhang producers that we highlight, they're not big corporations. They're like people off on their own shit, like working really hard. Yeah, well, farmers. I mean, I'm using a broad term, but to make an analogy, they're working in rural communities.

1:18:21Yeah, and they're not doing it – not that there's anything wrong with profit, but they're not doing it as this big business. They're doing it for the love of Chong, for the love of culture, for their culture, for the history. And anything that I can do to celebrate that is, like I said, it's a privilege to be able to do. I'll leave it there. Joshua David Stein, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you, Matt.

1:18:51This Is Taste is hosted by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things happening.