507: Melissa Clark Wrote a Very Critical, Extremely Buzzy New York Times Review of Per Se and the French Laundry

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I'm writing for my dad. He was the kind of food lover who would, you know, save up. I know that if he went to the French Laundry, he would have been disappointed. He doesn't care about Instagram. He doesn't care about cultural capital. All he cares about is having a meal and feeling like this food is really special and learning something new from the experience. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. We had to break in on a Saturday with this very cool conversation with Melissa Clark. Melissa is a prolific cookbook author and wears several hats at the New York Times, where she's currently a food reporter, recipe columnist, and most recently the interim restaurant critic serving alongside Priya Krishna.

1:14I've really enjoyed Melissa's recent string of reviews, and most of all her latest report from New York City and Napa, where she gave Thomas Keller's pioneering restaurants, Per Se and the French Laundry, a fresh set of eyes. The review is a wild ride, and the internet was all over it. How did Melissa find her meals, and what does the current state of the Keller Empire say about the modern age of fine dining? We go over it all with this great conversation.

1:52Melissa Clark, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? I'm well. How are you, Matt? Oh, I'm great. I'm even better because I'm reading some really great restaurant criticism coming out of the New York Times, I must say. It's amazing to see the work that you and Priya are doing right now as joint critics. And I wanted to get in touch with you to talk about your recent review. Are the French Laundry and Per Se still worth the splurge? We went back to see. Before I get into some questions about your experiences there, when you kind of were given this assignment or decided you wanted to do it, was Pete Wells' iconic bong water quip from his 2016 review per se in the back of your head?

2:37Oh, absolutely. I mean, as soon as my editor, Emily Weinstein, mentioned that this was a possibility, I went back and read Pete's reviews. I went back and read everybody's reviews of Per Se. I read Ruth Reichel's review of or Critic's Notebook about the French Laundry. You know, it was important for me to understand the history of the reviews as well as the history of the restaurants. Yeah. I mean, these are some of the most reviewed restaurants in the paper of record. And really, it's important that we that we check in on these restaurants from time to time as as writers and food, because I think the legend of of the French Laundry, per se, lasts even if the culinary side is not quite quite there.

3:18Like when you're taking this assignment, like how are you going into these this dual review? do? Well, the first thing, you know, so I did my research in that I read, you know, everything that the Times wrote. I read everything that I could find. I went on to Reddit. I really kind of did a deep dive into what people were saying about these restaurants on social media just to see, like, what are people thinking? You know, and it was really interesting because I saw it was almost like it was two different worlds. Like on the one hand, I saw a lot of people who were very critical. And then I saw a lot of people who weren't.

3:51So I didn't get a consensus, which made me want to go even more because I wanted to be able to really weigh in. Right, right. I mean, I think you treated it like you were reporting any story that you report. And that is what I would expect. So you start the review with an open question for restaurants that have faded in the eyes of critics, but remain extremely book. What's the draw? And we'll get to your answer. But before we get to your answer, let's zoom out and talk about fine dining in 2024. You do answer this question a bit, but really, are we just big trophy hunting with our fine dining excursions these days?

4:31I mean, I think it depends on who you are and where you're going. I don't think that a fine dining experience has to be that. I think most many people, I can't say most people, but I know many, many people want to go to a fine dining restaurant to eat really delicious food. And have the experience of fine dining, which is, of course, you know, you want food that is creative, that makes you think, that makes you feel, right? I mean, I've got, I've had meals that have made me cry and made me laugh and just all of those things. And we want that experience. There are people who go because they want to cross something off their bucket list.

5:05Of course, they want the cultural capital, the bragging rights. But I don't, I hope that's not the majority. I know that I fall into the, I want the experience of eating in this amazing place. And I want to understand. I also want to understand the chef's vision. I mean, it's like art. You know, when you go to a museum and you look at a painting, you want to understand everything that that artist has brought to that canvas. So I hope that that's what people are thinking when they and when they want to spend the money. Also, fine dining is not cheap. You know, you're spending a lot of money and you really want it to be to live up to that.

5:37Well, I like the analogy of the painting, because I think food is art is always debatable. And many across the spectrum, chefs, you know, debate on the idea of if they're doing art or is it just a craft. But really, when you go to these spaces and you get the service and the, you know, the ambiance and the materials in the space, it feels like a work of art, right? Like you feel like you're entering a creative vision of somebody. At its best, yeah, it does. Okay, so we'll start with Per Se. You found what can be described, by me at least, as a technically flawed version of Thomas Keller's original genius that we all know, that we all recognize in this iconic cookbook, the French laundry cookbook that sold over a million copies.

6:30But really, let's talk about the low points. Yeah. Well, I mean, I really was, I hadn't been to per se in years. I had read Pete's review, but also, you know, I had also read Thomas Keller's apology where he said that he was going to, you know, get back in there and really turn things around. So, and it was still hard to get a reservation. It seemed like it was booked. So I was, I had high expectations when I walked in. Maybe that was part of the problem that I was expecting a lot. And from the very first mouthful, I have to say it was disappointing, you know, and I will talk about when you go into per se or French laundry, you're always given these canapes to start.

7:11And I remember the first time I went to French laundry, you know, back in the late nineties, early two thousands. I remember every bite of that meal. I remember the canapes because they were so transcendent. You get a little salmon cornay, which is a tuile with sesame. And then it's filled with red onions and creme fraiche and salmon tartare. And you eat it in one bite. And it's like this crunchy, creamy, just lovely bite. And at my first bite at Perse was clunky. You know, I bit in and it was like, oh, wait, this tuile isn't thin, it's thick, and it's sweet. And the cream is, it's barely there.

7:53And then the salmon tartare was tasty, you know, and so it was like the first bite was a disappointment. And then the meal kind of followed from that. Man, from that first bite, are you are you just is there just a sinking feeling that perhaps something that you'd read on one of those Reddit boards was was actually coming into fruition during your official review visit? I mean, I'm an optimist. It took me maybe three courses to finally get there. I tried to stay optimistic. Yeah. And you like you note about texture. It seems like texture was really off that night. It feels like that's a really kind of fundamental principle for all cooking.

8:27Like if something's gummy or flubby or you use some great words that I'm not, you know, are coming to mind. But like you you really these seem like kind of elementary mistakes. Yeah. Bloppy, starchy, dummy for sure. Yeah. So it was almost like somebody went a little crazy with the starch and the gelatin in that kitchen. Everything, the textures were off. the tapioca and pearls, which is a very, another famous dish of his, which I had had at French Laundry, which is amazing. When you eat this tapioca pearls, it just are bouncy and lively in your mouth with a zabaione and then oysters and the, you know, the little pop of the caviar.

9:06It's so magnificent. And then the one at Perse that I had was really like tapioca pudding. No, no. It was like cafeteria tapioca pudding gluey. And it just shouldn't have been that way. And a lot of the sauces were, you know, you'd put your fork into the sauce and it would peel up almost like fruit leather. Like they were over thickened. Some of them didn't have, they were very indistinctly flavored. A lot of the food was awkwardly plated. You know, I compared my photos that I took on my phone to the restaurant's official photos, and you could see that they weren't plated correctly. You know, we had a foie gras dish that it was supposed to be a little dollop of yam puree.

9:53And we got this giant squiggle and these big pieces of these big cranberries instead of smaller pieces. And I just threw everything off. You know, the balance was off. And it kind of continued like that. Well, it's a really interesting point. And I imagine you were dining with a couple people, one person for this meal. Yeah, there were actually three of us. Three of you total. You're not anonymous. You write cookbooks. You do videos. You're out there. And, you know, there's always this debate of being anonymous or not in reviews. But really, this is a classic example. And I believe the reason why being anonymous is not required.

10:31You should have been given the most perfectly plated version of that dish in that restaurant that night. and yeah yeah that's i mean that was what was so surprising to me is that um i wasn't anonymous i mean we didn't make the reservation under my name but i was spotted you know pretty quickly after i came in and um you'd think you'd think i would get as good as they could give maybe i did maybe i did get as good as they could give or maybe i didn't i don't know it's hard to know but yes you would think that they would have really um put their best foot forward but it's it's like steering an aircraft carrier in some of these situations.

11:08And really, I think it's just a proof that, yes, being anonymous does have its benefits, but honestly, you're not going to get that much of a different experience with the cuisine in a lot of places. Yeah. I mean, that was one of the things when I took on the interim critic position, I discussed it with my editor. I was like, you know, I'm not anonymous. And she said, well, you know, in this day and age, it's really hard to be anonymous. And also, yes, it's going to affect the service, but the food is the food. Exactly. I love I love that point of view. Melissa, you found that the desserts were great and really you're not one who suffers fools when it comes to that side of the menu.

11:47You you're an expert and you really know what you're talking about when it comes to pastry, baking desserts. Talk about some some highlights from the from the dessert side. OK, the desserts were I mean, they were just spot on. Love it. Everything was great. And, you know, kudos to the pastry chef. It was they. So there's a famous dish called coffee and donuts where you get a trompe l 'oeil cappuccino, which is really a mousse in a little cup with this lovely foam. It looks like you could drink it, but you use a spoon and then real donuts. And it's just it was so perfect. It was, you know, just it was deeply flavored of coffee and cream.

12:25The donuts were light and they came out hot and they were not too hot, you know, just right. Um, there was an ice cream, a sticky bun ice cream with a milk tuile, which was phenomenal. It's like, just imagine, uh, it was like the thinnest, crispiest sheaths of like sweet and condensed milk, or I'm not sure how they make it, but it was a thin sheath wrapped around this ice cream that just burst with cinnamon. And it was perfect. Um, those were, those were two of the highlights of that meal. Um, but I mean, everything there were, you know, all the bonbons, all the little miniardies, you know, little cakes, little cookies, everything was spot on.

13:03Wonderful. Not too sweet, perfect texture. I love hearing that. I mean, I feel like you are optimistic as am I, and you know, you can have some bad dishes, but ultimately you saw some positivity from this experience. So weeks later, you find yourself in the Napa Valley at the French Laundry, and you know, the oysters and pearls, the salmon cornet, and the truffle custard, they're better. These are the similar dishes from Per Se. so was there a slight sense of a redemption for our for our hero thomas keller yeah i mean the meal really was much of the meal well all of the meal was better it was 100 better uh chef keller was on he was on the premise he was there so you know you can tell that he was watching things and there was nothing um really i think it was an 11 course meal there are only two courses out of those 11 courses which were not good the rest were really good two of them were outstanding all of the canapes were spot on oysters and pearls exactly like they should be salmon cornée the twill was thin um it was just the perfect bite the truffle custard also delicious um creamy and then there were these two courses which were great there was a skate seared skate with and it had a an emulsion of saffron and vanilla which just tasted like the essence of bouillabaisse and it was just wonderful.

14:23But then, you know, aside from, oh, and then there was a beet salad. Oh, there was this beautiful beet salad with red endive and olive oil, panna cotta, pomegranate seeds. Just stunning and surprising and beautiful. But everything else honestly tasted like, quote, fancy food. You know, it was, you know, a piece of perfectly cooked pink meat on a plate with a sauce that was nice. But there wasn't anything else that was exciting. You know, there wasn't any. I don't remember the rest of the meal. I mean, I have it written down. I have lots of notes. But right now, just talking to you, I cannot remember anything else.

14:58There was some lamb. And it shouldn't be that way. And it certainly shouldn't be that way for$390 a person. No, absolutely not. And really, you used the word fussy. And like even with this improved experience, it still was ultimately a fussy experience. Let's unpack that word that you're using. You know, what does that word mean and how does how does it feel to be served fussy food during a four plus hour marathon session at the French Laundry? You know, the word fussy, it's a funny word because, I mean, much of fine dining, of course, as we were saying, is fussy. A lot of work goes into these dishes, right?

15:35There's a lot of fussing. That's the point. This is food that you don't make at home. You want professionals to make it. But it shouldn't feel fussy. It should feel like you're eating, you know, just like you're eating the sunshine or you're eating, you know, just something magnificent and easy. And this felt it felt worked over. You know, it felt like you could see the effort almost. It's hard to describe how it makes you feel like, you know, to unpack that word, I've been thinking about it. It feels. I mean, you're not free. You're being like restricted in a way. You're not you're not feeling like the jazz of of Adamica.

16:17I'm just using one example. Like I feel like there's a little jazz there. And when it's like feels like a little bit like just like the script of it, of a long dead composer, it feels fussy. Some of the criticism that I've gotten for my criticism has been that, you know, what's wrong with, you know, letting someone, you know, his restaurants are full. well, what's wrong with letting someone cook the way they want to cook? Absolutely nothing. But I'm also, you know, my job is to give my informed opinion. And this food wasn't, it just didn't feel special, can I say. It was technically perfect, but it wasn't special.

16:54It wasn't, it didn't take me anywhere. It didn't take me anywhere. I guess that's the way that is best to say it. I like it, Melissa. That's a great way to put it. So I love this section of writing. Quote, both of Mr. Keller's places, like many other restaurants on the world's 50 best three Michelin star global eating circuit, seems stuck in a bubble of complacency that formed in the early years. It is possible that the price point of these places has nudged out of those who once came for the food in favor of those who come for the pampering and the cultural capital, that great term you use. while your critical observations are beyond sound and and this whole experience honestly feels pretty lame do you feel like you're pouring a little cold water on these folks who are simply trying to catch an instagram flick celebrate an anniversary and just like go to a thomas keller restaurant yeah no i had a lot of um thoughts about when i was writing that and ultimately i mean i'm just gonna get really personal here matt i'm writing for my dad okay i'm writing this for my dad my dad was a he was the kind of food lover who would, you know, save up and want to go to one of these restaurants to experience and to have that, you know, the experience that I was describing at the beginning.

18:09And I know that if he went to the French Laundry, he would have been disappointed. He doesn't care about Instagram. He doesn't care about cultural capital. All he cares about is having a meal, you know, with, you know, my mom, with his loved one and friends and feeling like this food is really special and learning something new from the experience. And he's my muse for all of my writing, you know? So I didn't want to, you know, disparage people who do want to go for their reasons to go. I mean, those are frankly, pampering and cultural capital are valid reasons to go to a restaurant. And I hope, I mean, I know it sort of sounded like I was, like you said, pouring cold water on that, but those are valid.

18:51I mean, I go to spas. I love to, you know, and spend hundreds of dollars to have massages once a year, you know, as a special experience. People can find their bliss where they want to. But as a job, as a restaurant critic, my job is to tell people what's going on with the food and what they might expect, especially people who are looking for that transcendent gastronomic experience. Well, thanks for sharing the thought about your father. And I think that's an incredible North Star for you in criticism. And really, it makes a lot of sense that there are folks out there who are simply trying to get to have a great meal and have a great experience.

19:23Now, did you dip into the comments? Because I did. And I want to say just from a from an eyeball, people are kind of on your side with this one. A lot of firsthand accounts of French laundry, you know, not being great, some pretty bad remarks about per se. Also, definitely some Thomas Keller defenders. Fair enough. Do you check out those comments? You know, I try not to. They will kill you as a reviewer. I read all my comments on my recipes because I learned from them. But and my review hat, I have people watching them for me to see if there's anything that I need to know. But I don't go in myself.

20:01No, that's really fair. And that feels like the right balance there. But you peeked at him a little bit. I did. I did. I hear it. OK. OK. So like generally speaking, Melissa, how's the reviewing been going? And you know, when you decided to take on this this co-temporary role while the paper decides on who the full-time is going to be. I mean, did you have to do some preparation? I mean, I know when critics take over in other cities, like I remember Solejo in San Francisco made it a great exercise. And it was really cool to see or visit a bunch of places and write about it. I mean, how did you get ready for this big job?

20:35Yeah, well, so I'm actually, I was kind of ready my whole life. You know, when I was brought up eating at restaurants, that was my family's way of celebrating, communicating, being together. I traveled a lot through France with my family. My parents were psychiatrists and my dad's aim in life was to eat at every Michelin starred restaurant in France. And they took us kids. We exchanged houses every August. Every August, a French family came to stay in our house and we stayed at a French family's house. So I've been going out to eat, you know, at least for French food, I will say, you know, specifically since I was a kid.

21:13So that I had a really good education. I worked in restaurants. I worked in kitchens. So I have that as well. I have the kitchen side of it. And then for this job, particularly, I went as soon as I heard that I was going to be doing this, I went out and I ate in every place I could in New York. I mean, I just went out to dinner all the time because I needed to understand the context of what's happening in New York right now. Because, you know, you're not just reviewing from your memories of what food was you're reviewing from what are people doing that's exciting in new york and you know that was really fun because the food in new york right now is phenomenal we are so lucky and um and i love i mean i also happen to be lucky i love all kinds of foods i love i mean i love fine dining absolutely but i mean i love all kinds of dining what i love is i love when someone puts their heart into what they're cooking that's what I'm looking for.

22:04I love the heart and the soul. And you really, you do feel it. You really feel it. And, um, and I got to experience it a lot. So that was, that's been great. Well, I think you, you really connected, um, with Lola's and, and really that review. Um, it really kind of nets out what you're saying here is that you, you found a love of food with, with that, with that meal. Yeah. I mean, I, but you know, here's the thing. Um, I'm really looking for places like that. I'm looking for places where you understand, see the love of what they're doing. And I want to tell people about those places. And so I'm looking for that.

22:38I'm not, and I like to say nice things about people. That's why I don't like to, I don't, I have to be critical. That is my job. So, but if I can find a place that I love and I can share that, that's as a critic, that's my dream. I've had Pete on a couple of times and really a big part of that conversation like stuck with me and it's it's like there's a lot of times when critics will review will visit restaurants and they'll get like a sense of like mid and yeah have you been getting that with your reporting and your visits yes yeah and then i'm not gonna write about i'm not i don't i'm not gonna trash a family restaurant or a small restaurant that's just doing the best they can and maybe it's not you know or what for whatever i'm not out i'm not out to do that um I'm out to find the gems, write about the great places.

23:26And then if there's a place that needs that, I think people are really excited about and needs to be written about. Like Din Tai Fung, frankly, is, you know, it was a big opening. So and I had to go there and I had to tell the truth. The word news is in newspaper and you have to copy the news. And that was a huge story. Yeah. And like the responsible critics are the ones who who figure out that balance between, you know, is it punching down or punching up? and is it a restaurant that deserves the really sharp criticism, clearly per se in French Laundu or that? I mean, when you're doing these visits, I mean, are you visiting a lot of places that you end up not running about?

24:04Yes, for sure. Oof. That's tough. I mean, that's like three hours out of your day. It's some calories. But I guess it's just part of the job, right? Well, I learn something from every place I go. I mean, it's not wasted time. You know, I'm always learning. So what's it like sharing the column with Priya Krishna and really do you see a benefit to sharing the title? I mean, I love both of your writing and I think you both have really signature voices and you both obviously come at it from different backgrounds and points of view. What's that like? I love it. I think it's, I mean, I wouldn't have wanted to do it all by myself.

24:41I think I would want, it's easier to do it when you are only responsible for every other review. So first of all, it's easier and it makes, I can also do some of my other job, like recipes, which are still important to me. So I love that. And then Priya has a dream to work with. I mean, she and I have had, it's not exactly collaborative. You know, she writes her reviews, I write my reviews, but we can just, we're just a sounding board for each other. And it's great to really have someone to talk about and who's going through the same, asking the same questions, going through the same, just sort of mental dance about how to approach this.

25:18And I think she's a fantastic writer and doing a great job, you know, so it's I I couldn't be happier with the way that we get to both do this together. Yeah. And separately. You know, I had Bill Addison on years ago when he was sharing the role with another writer. And and really, are you guys like calling dibs on certain restaurants? Like, OK, so there is that we are calling. So there's a dib thing. But we're OK because, you know, we've had some places that I know, you know, I've definitely called dibs on places she kind of had her eye on. and she's called dips on places. I've had my, but it's, it all works.

25:49You know what? It all, it's all washes out in the end. I guess it's your editor's job. I mean, are you, is your editor, are your editors assigning you restaurants? Are you pitching? How's that work? Oh, we're, we're, no one assigns us. We pitch, we find, we pitch, we, and then, you know, we negotiate between ourselves, amongst ourselves. They're just, they just want to make sure that we're going to get them in every, you know, every two weeks. So Melissa, I can't let you go without asking you about holiday baking. Do you have a signature cookie this year, either a new holiday cookie or something that you're bringing back that you just are really thinking this is the year for this one?

26:28Okay, well, I am a shortbread fanatic. I love shortbreads in all different iterations, all different ways. And I did for cookie week, you know, New York Times cookie week, which is always a big, exciting entree into December. It's just, you know, it's a collaboration between several of New York Times contributors and staffers. And this year I did a peppermint shortbread that I'm so excited about. So it is, you know, classic shortbread with a little egg yolk in it to make it just very tender. And it's peppermint extract. And I decorated the top with royal icing. Almost, it looks like a black and white cookie in that it's half and half, except that it's red and white.

27:10So it recalls a candy cane. So it's this just lovely, tender cookie with this. And the frosting, you know, the glaze sets. So it's got a crisp snap to it. And it's a little bit candied because of the peppermint and then just the soft cookie. I just am crazy about this year's cookie. Oh, I'm leaning hard into peppermint too. I can't wait to try your recipe. I'm going to link to it in our story. And we had Von Reland on earlier this week talking all about the cookie package. So definitely check out that episode. Oh, yeah. Vaughn is the master at it. He is our cookie hero. He really is. It was a great interview.