508: Soy Boys, Chad Foods, and the Yassification of the Grocery Store with Snaxshot's Andrea Hernández

35:59And a good example of this is like H-E-B. Like they're very regional. Like I think they're only in Texas and some parts of Mexico. And I'm like, they do really well. I think they do 40 billion a year. And it's like, isn't that enough? I feel like that should be enough, you know? And so my first 90 days, I would fight as hell to try to figure out how to break up the big grocer conglomerate, which I would probably yield for. Your shareholders or your board of directors would certainly boot you after those first 90 days. Oh, yeah. But I like the impetus there. And I feel like, you know, HEB is a good example.

36:41And of course, just to be clear, HEB has plenty of the same tactics as Kroger. You know, they're charging slotting fees and they're large footprints. But keeping it more regional and local probably has a real benefit. So I like that instinct a lot. I want to segue and ask you about soy boys, trad wives and the elevation of, quote unquote, Chad foods. These are topics you cover in a wonderful essay called Pendulum Swung Back Hard. I'm linking to it in the show notes. So what did you learn when reporting this piece about this conservatism of food? Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny because like a few, I don't know, maybe it was last year where I like remember tweeting out like, oh, anti-seed oil has become like a political signaler.

37:31And this was before like RFK was like getting in all into it and stuff and like all the Omaha stuff. But it's I think this shift in food and beverage basically predicted the election. And if you were paying attention to what was happening in food and beverage, they should have not come to you as a surprise that Trump won. And the idea of, you know, going back to eating real meat, eating real dairy, eating like raw milk, it's something that I drew attention to last year too, where it's like, hey, have you seen that there's this whole like politicization of dairy and meat? So the reversal of the alts, for example, like that were so popular in 2010s, like you saw states were actively like calling for a ban of cultured alternative proteins.

38:29And then you had the reversal of states actually deregulating and legalizing raw milk sales direct to consumer, which was something that wasn't like it was it was there for I don't know how many decades. But that reversal of legalization was very interesting, too. Right. And so you have this whole like movement that that's great. You know, it's great. We should go back to, you know, eating like real food. I agree with that. But the interesting part is that being co-opted by conservative political parties, specifically like the Republican Party and use like how how this whole like idea of what is a trad wife?

39:14what is a chad what is a soy boy like that meme that came out like late in 2010s like that should have been that was kind of like the cannon in the coal mine of the tides are turning and so for those who don't know the soy boy is a meme based on the idea that drinking soy milk oat milk etc like is like it's emasculating based on some ingredients that uh are found in these types of products um so then like the idea of like a chad food would be something that has like a lot of protein and even gen alpha you know has kind of been brought into this whole conversation like they have the meme like giga chat and they have this whole thing about mewing and perfecting your body um teenage girls like on the gen alpha uh gen z side that call themselves crunchy teens and they have the same beliefs of, which is really fascinating, the same belief of like, oh, anti-seed oils and like not putting like, they all do grass-fed butter, like butter, not putting any alternatives in like alternative food into their body.

40:26And also like their role models are people like Nara Smith, right? That's like one of the OG trad wife personas. And even seeing baby Hubermans like start their own journeys like this teenager I mentioned in the essay that he has his own podcast. He's an anti-vaxxer. He's posting about books that he's reading and similar like, oh, get some sunlight. Very Brian Johnson, like on like deep sleep stuff. And it's like you're like like 17 or something like what are you even talking about? So it's really interesting because what I basically came to our conclusion is that if we're hoping that Gen Alpha is going to be any different, it doesn't seem that they're shifting any differently than what you have seen with Gen Z's sort of like the way that a lot of Gen Z people also kind of skew Republican.

41:27So I think it's very fascinating to see that has been like trickling down. And that's why I literally titled that the pendulum swung back hard. I think the fact that we are seeing oat milk as woke, that it's considered woke, and that people like that it's like, oh, my God, if I'm eating an oat milk, how is that literally a political signal? Or like, am I saying that I am voting for a certain party based on my food decisions? And I think that's that's insane to think about. It's insane, but it's but it's relevant to how, you know, right now the grocery store is the greatest signifier of your values.

42:05I mean, we've been talking about that. It's an identifier. It's an identifier. And it really it is clear that the the foods that you choose to eat says more than you're staying healthy or you're indulging could go on both sides of the coin. It's your political beliefs. It's your religious beliefs. It's how powerful this industry you cover has. The power of food in our culture is so profound. Yeah, exactly. And the fact that it has to be politicized, food has always been political, but it's crazy that there's division in the idea of we should be eating healthy, we should be eating from local meat and dairy producers.

42:54Like the idea that that has to cause a division to me is just very, very upsetting that it will, it's like drawing lands and like lines in the sand. And I don't think, I think that's something that should be just like, like up to you and not necessarily have to put you in a, in a division because you're like eating beef, tell chips now. Like people are going to think you're like a Trumper and that's going to like upset people. like i know it's really fascinating but hopefully i don't know hopefully i mean at this point i don't even know if there's there's a hopefully but i think i think it's important for us to realize that if we could have seen that this shift was happening in something that's so basic right which is your food and like beverage options then it shouldn't we it should have been something that we understood that it's like where there was there was only one person that was gonna come out victorious from this.

43:46And it was obviously Trump. Andre, you've done some really deep reporting on soda culture in America. You wrote about Care of Dr. Pepper overtaking Pepsi as the number two soda brand. And you also wrote really colorfully about the virality of the 7-Up Shirley, which I fucking love. You also wrote about the probiotic soda wars, which we've covered on our show quite a bit. it seems that all gens are still drinking a lot of soda so what does this tell you about soda in 2025 yeah i think again the pendulum swung back i think we're seeing and this is something that i predicted literally 2022 i did a couple of interviews for the la times and bon appetit they're like what's your biggest like thing that you're seeing i'm like oh the pendulum's about to swing.

44:34And I like that was like, what, almost three years ago now, since we're like at the end of 2024. But I think that to me, it was like it's it's when you we overcorrected, right, the fact that we do have probiotic sodas and like Palo Santo water, which is I'm not even kidding. It's a thing. Just like Google it. I think we overcorrected to a point of insanity, in my opinion. And that's why there's like sort of this rejection, especially from the younger generations for example red dye 40 maxing is doing a lot and i it's so funny they'll be like oh like my pre-workout is it's like a one of those like red swedish fish things and it's it's funny because it is it's it's it's counterculture right that is also to be expected that things operate um in cycles but yeah it's like to meet dr keurig like uh keurig dr pepper is their official name they literally i think to me they what a comeback like the fact that they were able to dethrone pepsi who for decades has been always number two to coca-cola through like strategic um like all these product launches that they've done like the shirley temple one being very savvy enough to understand that's one of the most popular gen alpha drinks um like parents were so excited about it.

46:01Like 180 ,000 people like that post that I tweet, like when I tweeted about it and it really showed me like, wow, like this is a commotion for, for a soda. That's not an Olipop or a poppy. And that, you know, it just reminds you, like sometimes these, uh, the, these things that we try to like kind of push these narratives, which is fine. You know, olipop's doing allegedly 500 million in rev this year i think poppy's saying the same thing and yeah there's potential of it becoming more of a modern soda kind of play walmart actually now has a modern soda um section and they those are the brands included along with things like xavia um yeah big soda big soda's bag you look at look at the utah culture of those like soda shops right where it's like the the swigs is one of the dirty soda culture yeah yeah it's crazy and like pepsi's has been testing one called drips like no matter how much we humanize sugar like people cannot get enough of it you know do you think one of the two probiotics is going to be acquired in 2025 do you feel like this soda war might might end or there'll be a called truce of some sort they need they need it that i don't think they're not going to ipo i don't i don't know i mean how what other options they have um i know like i i have heard that there's one doing better than the other one and i think one of them uh is burning more money just to put all this narrative of it being like such a big thing um around it but i won't say well i'll just say we'll call back to an episode when i was driving to lax and i saw a literal 14 story billboard for olipop's new mountain dew so I'll leave that for the listener to take their own opinion.

47:49Yeah. No, but I will also say like, it's fascinating to see Poppy get into Canada, for example, and how that the branding there, the positioning is much more different because they're not allowed to say all these claims because obviously Canada regulates a lot stricter. And so if you look at Poppy Canada, like the Canadian website for Poppy, the cans don't have gut health. They have nothing. They say nothing about prebiotics. It's just called a modern soda. And I think that's going to be the play for them soon in the US. I think this Walmart doing a modern soda section solidifies that theory for me, that we're going to soon see Poppy and Olipop start to abandon the gut health positioning.

48:37You heard it here first. I mean, we're all macro-conscious. And if you flip the can, you're going to see the fiber concentration. And, you know, this is millennial Metamucil, which you've coined brilliantly in your writing. So I want to segue. You profiled the founders of Chain, and that's all uppercase, and wrote this beautiful profile of the founders. And you also had this great intro of this piece, and it talks about our continued love of fast food and, you know, the passion for innovation in the fast food space. I guess this is a two-part question. first you know what what is chain i'm i'm so confused is this just like a food festival okay chain to me is comic-con for restaurants that's like the easiest like but also it's like a it's like an ode to um american chains which they've told me they believe are the last monoculture in America left, which, you know, kind of feels right.

49:40And so I think, you know, what they started off, they have their own space in LA where they do like events. So like they just did this like Moana collaboration with Disney. They're known for, so if you go to their headquarters or if you like look at the S.A.R.O., we actually like did have like all these like photos that we took of their place. It's, it's all like, um, it's like, it's like a museum for, for chain and chain restaurants. So like, you'll have the iconic pizza hut, um, lamps, you have all these like little, um, that you, you recall from like the eighties, nineties, McDonald's playgrounds.

50:22Um, I think that it is an ode to, in, in their own way of, of honoring like the impact of, of these chains in in american culture and they do so by doing like you know like vert like these their own versions with a chef it's chef tim hollandsworth yeah and he does like these elevated versions of like what you remember uh like taco bell like these menus even like revived some of the stuff that has hadn't been in the menu for taco bell i think it was this year um but they've done also like cool like merch drops um that have sold out i don't know it sounds like they're just having fun doing this and they it the business side of it has kind of evolved to also doing like collaborations and then their chain fast which has become literally a comic con for um like restaurant rats which also feels super american to me like that there is a festival celebrating fast food like a classic American.

51:26I'm really curious about this company. And, you know, BJ Novak, come on the show. I know you want to. We've been chatting about it online. So come on the show to talk about it. But also, and Tim Hollinsworth, you know, of ODM in LA and a really acclaimed fine dining chef. And so they've got the manpower behind it. And, you know, these events sell out quickly and they all seem extremely fun. So, you know, my question was really like, Like, I'm curious and really optimistic about this. And thanks for clarifying it in this great piece you wrote. And my second part to the question is, what have you learned from McDonald's both very good year?

52:05You know, the app has been on fire and there's been these incredible collabs, but also quite a bad year. I mean, the stock price has been battered. And, you know, Q4 saw this pretty bad quarter pounder with cheese, you know, listeria outbreak, which certainly is not what you want to see as a McDonald's executive. What's your read on, you know, our legend, our golden arches? So I like think that they they've done a really great job in the past five years nailing the like becoming also like the kind of what's called like the blueprint for how to actually be cultural like like like understand culture and doing collaborations that don't feel cringe.

52:59I think for a while there was a lot of like just mismatches that were happening. And then they started doing these like cool jobs with Cactus Plant, like Flea Market. They just did this like McDoodles collaboration with the Doodles NFT group. I mean, the Grimmest Birthday Party, the Grimmest Shake back from the end of last year. Oh, the Grimmest Shake. Yeah, they've done a lot of stuff that feels like it's like a lot more in tune with the culture and it's not coming off as cringe. They also did this very obscure like like fashion show thing with this. I don't know. It's like I don't know. It's a European brand called Vain, but it was so fascinating.

53:43I'm like, whoa, how do they like it was cool. It's like they reimagined McDonald's uniforms like by repurposing like old McDonald's uniforms. And then they, I don't know, they made these like really insane like jackets and it's crazy. So it's like, imagine if a goth McDonald's existed. Oh man. That's kind of the vibe, but I would definitely like Google it. And so I think they've been doing that really well. I think on a branding side that has elevated them for sure. And I think everybody's strapped like this year, everybody was doing a value menu. there was like a lot of the tightening of the belts around summer for sure and I think that it has it's so funny like Chili's has like this like like fight with McDonald's online it's hilarious because like the prices of fast food has kind of obviously gone up that but also like at par with these fast casualties so like Chili's will be like oh you know for ten dollars this is all the stuff that you can get which i don't know how scalable it is so chilies need to like like remember like that's those are the kinds of plays that made red lobster go bankrupt exactly there's this whole this whole idea of like oh mcdonald's has become expensive um etc and and i think that's something that it's not just a mcdonald's struggle i think that's a struggle that like all these qsr restaurants um are are having to deal with and they've you know brought back the the five dollar value menu and the fact that it's a five dollar value yeah and leveraging the this this really terrific app and you know the kiosk experience too yeah and mcdonald's is very very sharp it's very well done they yeah i feel like them the apps them are probably at par in some ways with the success of Starbucks.

55:39And it's so funny because then they actually start operating in the way of a bank, right? It's like all these gift cards and all these things. It's really funny how that essentially makes McDonald's some sort of a bank, which is funny to think about. But I do think that McDonald's has, at least the perception of it, has definitely changed. And who knows, right? with the whole Maha situation. Who knows if RFK can actually bring beef tallow back. To the value menu. Yeah, we'll see like a 99 cent beef tallow add on to all McDonald's. Your comment a second ago leads to my final question. Andrea, thank you so much for this great conversation.

56:23I can't wait to have you back. Andrea, is Starbucks fucked? that is a a really good question and uh because you know looking don't don't like i feel like don't tease like sleeping giants like yes i think starbucks encroached on the when they started like saying like oh we're gonna build you know this i think it was like every nine minutes they were going to open a store in China because now China is becoming like this huge coffee market, something that is a big change from them, obviously a big tea drinkers before. But they were having the CEO that was more of like a CPD background. The all like a lot of these changes that happened where they like they like shot themselves in the foot in 20.

57:17I think it was like around 2020 that they said they came out publicly saying like, we're no longer a third space and we're going to focus on convenience and, and pick up whatever. And like, they're surprised that people are like, not like fucking enjoying Starbucks. Like who, like who wants to go and like be in line, like for like a pickup line. And like, that's not a coffee experience. And like, like, I always joke, like coffee, nobody goes to Starbucks to actually drink coffee. They go for like the individual custom drinks, whatever that must have taken that must take them like forever to make um but i i think that they just you know they they poached the chipotle ceo and i think they they needed someone with qsr experience i don't know how the hell the decision of the person who was before them who you look at his background and he was like pepsi like a pepsi co person um but it wasn't like had no experience in in like a quick service industry, like the quick restaurant service industry.

58:20And so this guy from Chipotle, I think there's a lot. That's why the stock went up. I think that there's a lot of hope that he can turn around the company. But I don't know if it's too late. There's a lot of things that have changed, right? Generation-wise, for example, iced coffees are now what millennials and Gen Z kind of have shifted to. So I think 75 % of their revenue now comes from cold drinks, which is really insane to think about. But that's like a huge generational change right there. And so I don't know. I don't know if there's, I don't know if they're going to be able to come back on top in the way that they can.

59:01There's a lot more competition too, like Dutch Bros, like Dunkin' Donuts too, when it comes to like price. Like if they go to do like lower price, like they're going to lose out on that. Looking's coming into allegedly coming into the U.S. offering$2 coffees too. And so like, I feel like they have to stay in the premium side and to stay in the premium side, they also have to like make sure that the brand is representing that premium. So like, I don't know, like TBD. Yeah, no, I want to have you back and talk about, you know, Brian Nickel, the current CEO has that Chipotle background, which you mentioned.

59:36And really, I can't imagine what's on his vision board for the next 18 months for Starbucks to pivot away from, you know, being a place of basically Uber Eats delivery folks hanging out and getting to-go orders to like actually making it feel like a Starbucks. And of course, leaning into the cold drinks, maybe dovetailing with what you just said really well about the dirty soda and like the soda movement for Gen Z and millennials. Maybe mean the menu feels dusty it feels dated yeah you know the bites are are popular but there's very few viral products coming out of starbucks they brought back the killer lemonade they're like oh yes killer lemonade and then they brought the the caffeinated lemonades and i'm like whoa welcome back killer lemonade they need viral products they need to look around the space and see what mcdonald's is done they need to look at what sweetgreen has done and they're clearly going to have their potential silver bullets to break through the noise with new products.

1:00:42But to your point, everything's getting more expensive. So adding some perception of value to that menu with their offerings, both on the beverage side and the food side is going to be critical, I believe. Andrea, this is Taste We Asked Guest about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. The best fruit? Mango. The worst vegetable? artichokes oh wow tell me about that what's what's what's they're so complicated like it's first of all it's i don't know it's like a little it looks like a little cactus like i don't know it's it it feels like i mean when you try to eat it i mean i even try to cook it i'm like it's just it's overly complicated but if it's cooked for a reason but i totally agree the the fresh artichoke the fleeting season in the spring definitely a tough one the best dessert Ooh, my favorite is this dark, like, chocolate bar, like, with mezcal from this brand called Cuna de Piedra.

1:01:44So anything dark chocolate. Ooh, sounds amazing. I love that combination. And when it's a premium cocoa and cacao, ooh, love that. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Ugh, Mexico City, hands down. And I'm saying this with a lot of love because, I don't know, maybe I'm too Latin American, but I need food to be like very, like seasoned very well. And obviously Mexicans know so much about that. Love that call. You moved to Austin. How's the food there these days? Yeah, honestly, it's so funny because the Michelin people just finally gave stars here in Texas. And there's obviously a lot of Austin restaurants.

1:02:26I love Suerte and I love Este. Anything that's like actual, like Mexican, American. I just tried this place called Convisa al Mar that was spectacular. But the other stuff, like, you know, I'm not really fond of, you know, eating pizza or pasta in Austin. Sorry, no hate, just being realistic. I get it. All right. A grocery item you wish you could bring back from the dead. Oh, my God. It would be a tie in between the original Funfetti Dunkaroo before they killed the guy. Yes. or the original 90s Rice Krispies treats cereal, the one that came like in a green, like a really, I don't know, like I love the aesthetic of this like green cereal box, but it would be a tie in between those two.

1:03:15That cereal, I got to believe there's some dead stock on eBay right now. Yeah, but it's like, it probably isn't like not, it's probably like expired or something because it's been like almost three decades. Oh my God, I'm so old. Oh my gosh. I think somebody, please write in if you've tried this cereal, either Deadstock or you have a memory. I love that. I love that one. Okay. This is big. Your favorite new grocery product or item. Oh my God. You're putting me on a spot. There's so many, but I would have to say the best product I've tried so far this year, the new brand that has just recently launched, it's a brand called Bessie and it's Labneh and their red pepper wine.

1:03:56I actually had it at one of the events we threw over the summer in New York. And it's just hands down like something that I just was like, whoa, I had never tried labneh like as like mixed with something. I would just traditionally just eat it like by itself or like with some olive oil. And that was really cool. And it comes like in this like little dip, like carton. I don't know. It's really great. The branding was really good. And so I'm sorry, please, everybody else, You all have amazing products, but Bessie. I love it. No, I'm going to seek this out. I've seen it online, but I've never tried it.

1:04:34So I'm going to seek it out. I imagine Pop-Up Grocer might have it. So I'm going to check that out. I want to hear your favorite, the new founder you met, not necessarily because of the product, but the human, the person. I know you do an amazing job on Snackshot of profiling founders and really props to you for doing an amazing job with the photography and the photo program. You really think about this as well. But is there a founder on the human level that you really like? Oh, my God. This is another hard question. But I would say like a lot of the ones that I like have become really good friends.

1:05:15One person that I just like really love because I feel like what they're doing is very intentional. And the way that they approach to like it's just it's just so it's real. It's a real and I have actually wanted to profile him, but he he's like, oh, you know, I don't try not to have my face out there. You know, like it's just all about the brand. His name is Miles and he's done. He's the guy behind Zabs. And if you've ever had Zabs, it actually Zabs exists. He's he's their dog. the actual little mascot is an actual real Zabs. I've met him. Zabs is amazing. But Miles is just like such a humble, they're doing amazing.

1:06:01Like they're, they have all these in it and they're, they're obviously also doing a lot more on the next coming year. But I feel like it's such an underrated, like cultish hot sauce brand. And he's just like very like just humble always. And just like such a sweet guy. And I don't know, I feel like he's one of my favorite people and cdt i mean i love it i have so many others but yeah i i love it i i i i miles listened to the show and and i got to meet him so i feel this is this is a very cool uh cool mention and unprompted i didn't i didn't know you were going to say that but it's a great product zabs has got a couple lines of hot sauce and it's a terrific product so thanks for mentioning that last one your favorite sandwich oh that's hmm you know i wasn't really like very much of a sandwich person but i really like like just like a breakfast a good breakfast sandwich with like an egg like a very yolky egg like that's the only occasion i probably like find myself eating a sandwich perfect answer what a terrific conversation we just had andrea hernandez thank you so much for joining this.

1:07:18Thank you. This was fine.

1:07:29What's up, Eliza? We're back with three things. How are you doing? I'm doing good, Matt. How are you? I'm good. We were talking a little bit off mic. You've been binging a little Netflix, I think. Yeah. Okay. My first thing is that I've been watching Culinary Class Wars, which I know you've watched all of I'm Not Quite Done Yet, but what a TV show. Culinary Class Wars, which if you haven't heard about this before, is a Korean competition show where there are 20 white shirt, like Michelin star, top of their game chefs that are competing against a much larger pool of black shirt, like up and coming chefs who maybe have their own restaurant, but they don't have national, international acclaim.

1:08:09That is the basic premise for this show. But the way that it turns out in practice is just these really beautiful and wild expressions of contemporary cooking culture. Yeah. What a show. I mean, 100 chefs, you know, sequestered in a warehouse in Korea. I had an Ed on, Ed Lee, who participates in the show, and he told me a little bit behind the scenes. So we'll get to that in January. But what do you think about the show? I grew up watching Iron Chef, like the Japanese one, and then the Food Network one in the U.S. later on. And so I kind of think of that as the baseline of a competitive cooking competition show, whereas Great British Bake Off is, you know, it's competitive, but they're more chill about it.

1:08:47But this is easily the most insane level of competition I've ever seen in a food cooking show. I don't want to give away spoilers, but, okay, you tell me if I'm saying too much, but the first episode, they eliminate 60 people or over multiple episodes. They eliminate like so many people right off the jump. And that's when I realized, oh, this is like not a normal TV show. And there have been so many moments over the show, whether it's the ingredients that they're using or just how many people they're having move on to the next round. The more reasonable thing to do, which would be like to just lose two people or to not use like really only live fish.

1:09:23Like they never take that route. They always go the most extreme route. And the level of competition is just so high. And the respect that all the contestants have for each other is so high. The only thing I think that would make it better would be if I knew more about Korean fine dining and Korean restaurants, because I don't know really who most of the contestants are. But the respect that they have for each other and the way that they think about each other still carries through. I love that that's your takeaway. And, you know, I love that it shows modern Korean cooking in its two forms, which is not traditional cooking.

1:09:54And there's a lot of Western influence in Korea these days and more and more by the day. I mean, the pack noodles guy, you know, the guy who has the place in America. I was doing some research for another story I'm writing and and like his chains in America are like blowing up because of the show. I mean, I have so much respect for both of the judges that they brought on and all of the competitors. I think that the casting was as someone who doesn't know most of these people, I thought they did a really good job. And I think it would be so cool if they would do a U.S. version one day because I would love if I knew the dynamics.

1:10:26Yeah. The chefs that had worked together or that were competitors with each other. And as an outsider and someone who's never been to Korea, it's really interesting to see the way that like mala cream sauce or like or dungpo pork is like huge themes on the show. And they're not necessarily like dishes or ingredients that I would have thought of ahead of time. You know, the Szechuan influence in modern Korean cooking is real and the malatangs that you find places like Flavortown, you know, is really it's cool to see a lot of the perception of Korean food and like the modern fine dining we have in America is like smashed by the show.

1:10:59And like it really is Korean cooking, like the way that these ingredients are being used and ingenuity. And it shows like a culture that is really in great flux with their culinary identity. and the show, I mean, it's really entertaining too, obviously. Yeah, it's so cool. What's your first thing? My first thing is I've been on my fiction train and I'm gonna continue. And I've been talking about books I've completed and I feel like I maybe spoiled a couple of them. I'm sorry, listeners, but I'm like three quarters of the way through and so I don't know the ending, but I just wanna talk about it.

1:11:34And it's Vincent Cunningham's Great Expectations. Now, Vincent is a critic of The New Yorker. He writes about theater, art, and television. He's a finalist for the Pulitzer this year. So, like, he has deep chops and criticism and reporting, and this is his debut novel. And, you know, this book is about, you know, bearing witness to the rise of a presidential candidate who is a senator from Illinois who goes unnamed. But you can guess from the context clues of who this is. And Vincent, of course, worked in the Obama campaign and in the administration. So use the context clues to think about it.

1:12:09But really, it's not really about a behind the scenes. Like, what did he say? What didn't he say? There's much more to this novel. And I think it landed on New York Times top 100 or top 50 of the year. And really, what a strong debut. I mean, the story is about how a young man who has just had a child comes in terms with this big life change, but also the zoom out moments about politics and politicians, but also about religion and clergy members. He goes deep into both of these communities and these subcultures while the narrator Dave, you know, gets a lot of life lessons along the way. And I feel like this book has many layers to it.

1:12:55And it's a really, really fascinating look at how money is raised in the political game, but also about how a young man comes to terms with, you know, his life and really his religion. And I am so impressed that someone can debut like this. It's such a strong book. Yeah, it's been on my list for a while. Also, I really have to say I respect anyone who's doing a title like that. That's basically impossible to Google. Such an amazing title. Impossible to Google, but like clearly like I love that he went there. Yeah, it's on my list. So I'll have to try to get it sooner. What's your next thing? My next thing is I just went to B &H Dairy, which I hadn't been to in a while.

1:13:33And I just love this restaurant. Right. It's such an iconic, old school, tiny New York restaurant. And I was going to see Wicked at the Angelica in East Village, which is incredible. Obviously, everyone loves it. And then I went to B &H afterwards. And what I realized after eating there is that the path that I took from seeing a show at the Angelica Village East and then going to get borscht and pierogies at B &H afterwards is the exact path that somebody could have done almost 100 years ago. because the Angelica Village East was built in the 1920s as a Jewish theater. They still have the Star of David mosaic on the ceiling.

1:14:14And B &H was built in that neighborhood because it was the Jewish theater district in New York, and they thought they had a built-in audience for Ashkenazi Jewish deli food. And I love that I could go to Wicked and see a movie in this former theater and then go to B &H and get maybe the same recipe of borscht, and that 100 years ago somebody could have done something like that. That's one of the reasons why I love living in New York. It's such an iconic restaurant. And, you know, I'm not sure who you dine with, but when after a movie you're walking to have a meal, you're probably – there's a little goss happening on the walkover.

1:14:44And I'm thinking 100 years ago, what's the goss like? What's the goss like for these folks who had just seen a play at the theater? I don't know. I feel like everyone was probably buzzing with excitement the same way that we were afterwards. And the other thing I love about B &H is that it's the only deli I've been to where I can order entirely in Spanish because everybody who works there is like from Latin America, speaks Spanish. And then it's like the most purest expression of like my grandparents' deli food. I was talking with New York Nico on the show about one of the great things about New York is not only the melting pot of different cultures on the same block, but the way the different cultures champion each other's food.

1:15:21And to me, that's just like the ultimate New York experience. The tuna melt. Do you order it there? The whitefish melt. The whitefish melt, right. That they do. Yeah, I do like it there. I just wanted like boiled. They do the sauerkraut, mushroom, pierogi and borscht. But then I was sitting at the counter watching them make whitefish melts for other people. And I verbally kept on saying, oh, I should have gotten that, too, because it just looked so good there. So that's my second thing. You share that love with former co-host Anna Heasel. That's one of her favorite spots. I mean, I feel like anyone who goes there hopefully would love it.

1:15:54Yes, it's quite small and you got to be on good behavior. But they're all so nice and the food is so good. It's nice and like it moves if you have to wait a little while. It moves quickly. Yeah. You know, honestly, I tried to go to Veselka first because it's a little bit easier to sit there with a group. The line at Veselka was so long. The line's even long there recently. B &H, no line. And, you know, it's a place that I want to support and have it be around. For sure. I love both those places. What's your next thing? My next thing is another New York City restaurant. I was there last night. And you know what?

1:16:22The Odeon is fucking good, man. You got a martini? I don't drink alcohol. Oh, yeah. But that's cool. I mean, I had a gray bottle of water. I can't remember. It was like upstate water. It was not one of the usual Italian brands. You know, that restaurant used to be such the pits. And, you know, it was just always just there. And, you know, the food quality was low. And, like, it's crazy for a Keith McNally restaurant to have low food quality. You know, so many great restaurants. And really, I would say for the most part, outside of all Cesar, the restaurants are great. And I hadn't been in years and, you know, I would go.

1:16:58I would go with friends and like we definitely order like, you know, for breakfast, we'd have like, you know, you know, French omelet or some pancakes, some coffee or, you know, a sandwich at lunch. But like, listen, for dinner, I hadn't been there in probably 15 years. It was really good. And the crowd was extremely young. Yeah. Very interesting. I have a lot of friends that go to the Odeon for like a late night Manhattan dinner. Maybe they're going out afterwards or maybe it's the only time you can get a table there. But I think that a lot of people, especially on the holidays, are just interested in like the old New York kind of dining.

1:17:31Yeah, it's a really cool space. If you don't know, you know, it's been around since like the late 70s. And, you know, SNL cast members famously would go there the first couple seasons. It was like their local after the after the shows, the wrap parties were there. And then after Condé moved downtown, it became like the Condé Nast editor lunch spot. Definitely. And that remains today. It's like so close to the tower. And really it's, I had a steak called poivre. And I was like so happy with the way they cooked it because it was medium rare, perfect. Really nice cut. Great, like perfectly tossed, seasoned salad.

1:18:05Fries, the highlight. Absolute perfect fries. It's exactly the kind of bistro meal I wanted. And it felt it was a cold night. And, you know, the service was great. And it was a great room and very young. And I really want to keep going back. And I know this isn't like breaking news. I've heard the Odeon has been back and there's like a new energy there, but I highly recommend it. And you know what? I grabbed an open table reservation like the day of. It wasn't like booked out. So it's like probably has some availability. Hot tip. Hot tip. What's your last one? My last one is a energy bar, which I would never normally say.

1:18:39I really struggle with bars as a category. I feel like it's something that I want to like because running around, you get too hungry. It's good to have something. But I often just kind of struggle with the texture. But my girlfriend, Shirley, was on a shoot and she always comes back from like craft services table and extra snacks. And she was just raving about these mezcla energy bars. Have you had them before? Mezcla. It sounds I think someone sent me one. I'm sorry. I don't have any memory beyond that. Tell me about it. They're really good. So I had to track them down. Of course, she was specifically talking about their matcha flavor, matcha vanilla.

1:19:13OK, so it's a pea protein based energy bar. So it has kind of puffed split peas as the base of it. So it's very kind of crunchy and the texture is pleasing. And I think specifically the matcha flavor I was really into because I find that like protein bars can be kind of dry, you know, or just have like a weird flavor. But that kind of like grassy, herbaceous matcha flavor like really went really well with it. And I don't think it has enough caffeine to make any sort of impact. But I had one for breakfast actually this morning when I was running into the studio. and I just, I'm happy to find an energy bar that I make.

1:19:49Mezcla, yeah. It sounds like I got to pick it up. Did you check the macros at all? Do you recall? Is there actually a decent amount of protein in there? I'm looking at it right now. What would you consider to be a decent amount of protein? I don't, you know, I asked you this question and like in my head, I'm like, I don't know what a good - It has 10 grams of protein. That seems good. Which I think seems like a good amount of protein. I'll take that. Maybe we should like call on a nutrition expert. Yeah, I feel like we're working on a great protein story for the beginning of the year. So that's going to come out.

1:20:13We're going to maybe tap into macros because, you know, protein, protein, it's a big topic right now. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because the pea protein is the main source, right? The split pea, but they also have pumpkin seeds and sunflower seed butter and other things going on in there as well. The other protein bars that I like are the perfect bars that are like basically all nut butter with something else bound in. But those have to be kept refrigerated. They're a little bit more finicky. A little finicky. I still hit go macro once in a while. What's your last thing? My last thing is also in the bar category.

1:20:43Wow. You're synced up today, Eliza. Okay. You know Tony's, right? Tony's, the chocolate bars. Chocolonies, yeah. Yeah, Tony's Chocolonies, the Tony's Chocolonies. Well, they have a seasonal that, well, I'm going to back up and say I'm not a big Tony's fan. Like I've never really, like Tamara loves Tony's and gets them often. Not often, but she gets them like when we want to have chocolate. And I'm just not a fan. It's not my favorite chocolate. It's not really premium chocolate. I'm going to do chocolate like to get a little more, you know, into it. they have a gingerbread flavor right now and i've had ginger and chocolate and it never really vibed with me it never really worked this is like the greatest chocolate bar of my life i'm not being hyperbolic i love it they have little pieces of gingerbread in there and for whatever reason it's working incredibly well with the milk chocolate it's a milk chocolate gingerbread bar and we found it.

1:21:38I mean, I think they're selling them at like Costco. I don't know where I think they definitely sell them at Starbucks. I know I've seen them at the counter there, but it's a seasonal. And I don't know. I love gingerbread and chocolate and I love this bar and I'm going to definitely buy more of them. I'm looking at it right now and it looks very appetizing. The Tony's bars, the thickness of them, this is maybe a niche reference, but they remind me of... Chunks? This is too embarrassing. No, they remind me of in Harry Potter when the Dementors come onto the train and you have to eat chocolate to get them to go away.

1:22:17And specifically in the books, they're like talking about how Professor Lufen like snaps open this really thick chocolate bar that makes the Dementors go away. And the thickness of that bar is what Tony's Chocoloni reminds me of. I'm excited to hear that there's other flavors to try. Yeah, I'm really, I'm thinking like the chunk bars. Remember the chunk bars? They had raisins in them. No. Truly awful, but too thick. Maybe that's why I don't like Tony's so much. It's a very thick bar. It is a thick bar, but it's meant to be kind of snapped into pieces. I think it depends on what kind of chocolate vibe you're feeling for the day.

1:22:51But yeah, Tony's milk chocolate gingerbread, totally right for the season. Eliza, thank you for sharing your three things. You too.

1:23:03This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.