520: You Need to Visit Kingston, New York’s Most-Exciting Food Town with Innis Lawrence

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0:31I love walking into a place that's had 100 years under its belt. I'm a romantic. I think food and wine are romance languages. You know, that's why we do what we do is because of, like, having dinner with people. It's sharing food and wine. It's like almost nothing like it. You know, it's one of the amazing things about our species that we get to do. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

1:21Bistro with a focus on seasonal, farm-friendly fare with a really, really terrific wine list. It's dark inside. What a great place for a winter night. And this is also behind Fletcher & Lou Provision Market, which features in-house products, rotisserie chickens. And honestly, he sent me some charcuterie and it was incredible. On this episode, we talk all about Kingston, this town just outside New York City that is doing some incredible things with food. We talk about some of his favorite restaurants that he runs and he doesn't run, and why there are so many chefs moving upstate to open there. I really hope you enjoy this conversation.

2:06Innes Lawrence, welcome to This is Taste. It's great to finally meet you. How are you? I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me. Buddy, I have been a fan of your restaurants in Kingston and the surrounding areas, High Falls, for as long as I lived upstate. And we can talk all about it, but I want to get a sense of your background. You grew up splitting time between Manhattan and upstate New York. Talk about living in two places. And for many of our listeners, they hear about upstate. You know, this is like very wide term. You operate in Kingston, which is on the west side of the Hudson, the best side, in my opinion.

2:43And but many have questions about the region and the difference between New York and the Hudson Valley. So please let us know. I would love your take. Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, it's been growing up. It was always like north of the Bronx is upstate. I realized that that is controversial. and I have a very old friend who's from Malone, New York, which is like 30 miles south of Canada. And he's like, dude, you're not upstate. And, you know, whatever. It is what it is. That's what we call it. That's how we reference it. It's all good. So, you know, yeah, I grew up, I was born in High Falls, which is in the Hudson Valley.

3:18And when I was a kid, my dad was a set builder. So I grew up and went to first grade in the Upper West Side. He used to do the Geraldo show when I was a kid. So many stories to ask, but we'll do that for another day. In the heyday, too, of like when he got his nose broken. So I grew up in like Old Times Square when I was really young. So then always kind of splitting my time. Went to high school upstate, went to grade school upstate. But like always kind of splitting my time and having a real connection with the city. And it's a very unique, you know, area in terms of its geography. It's so close to the city, yet you can feel so isolated and so far.

3:59And I think that is, you know, what's unique about it. And it's also kind of part of the Kingston thing that I'm finding is like Kingston wants to sort of separate itself a little more than it can geographically. And it's sort of like this is how it is. And I think they're still coming to terms with that. We'll talk more about that later. Yeah, we'll get into Kingston. But it's an incredible area. You know, it's like it's obviously beautiful. Love living there. and it's having a great food scene. And it has for a really long time. But it's as people leave the city, as people need to just financially be able to open restaurants they want, Kingston's been an area that people are choosing, which is great.

4:45What's the proximity to New York City? How do you like to explain it? Because I think geographically, there's towns like Hudson that are much further up there, but Kingston is relatively close. How do you like to explain it? I kind of think about it as like Newburgh, New Paltz, Kingston, right? Like when you're driving or in the bus, you're on the thruway and you're hitting Newburgh exit, New Paltz exit, and then Kingston. And then north of Kingston is pretty much, you know, there's obviously a ton up there too. That's awesome. I don't get past Kingston much these days because of just work, but, you know, that's kind of how I think about it.

5:18And it's like an hour and 40 to New Paltz and, you know, another 10 minutes to Kingston. Yeah. From the city. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's how close it is. Wildly close. Wildly close. And then if you go north, you're into the Catskills, and that's a whole other vibe up there. Totally. And great restaurants. I'm hoping to have some Catskills chefs on in the future to get into that. Totally. But the whole upstate region is experiencing extreme boom. Myself included, many have moved up there full time. Yeah. And we find it. It's kind of a hidden secret. Totally. Talk about that a bit. Yeah, I think that's interesting about the area.

5:56I think it's hard not to talk about it currently is like the pandemic did very interesting things for the area. You know, we all probably read the articles about the mail forwarding and how it was like more mail was forwarded to like Hudson and Accord, you know, town people probably never heard of than anywhere else in the country. And so when we opened the first restaurant, Ollie's, in High Falls, we started it pre-pandemic and then the pandemic happened and we just had this massive influx of people. And I would say I like to think about 50 % of those people have stayed full time. It's generally people with kids my age, with Ollie, my daughter, she's seven.

6:37I found that people that had like high school age kids they would tend to they moved back to the city when school came back but the people who would be Having kids like in grade school Stayed full-time because the public schools are getting really good and there's a lot of really great schools There's a private schools and you know alternative education, but I that was a really interesting time Yeah from growing up there to just like this massive influx And it has its other double-edged swords about housing and availability, just all of those things. But it's been a really interesting time for the area because of that.

7:13What's it like growing up in High Falls? What's the food like there? Well, High Falls was actually a huge food, is kind of only a food town. It's incredibly small. Most famously, the Depew Canal House in High Falls. John Novy was the chef there. And when I was young, it was still open. And he actually opened this really great pizzeria in the basement of it. The building is now the Depew Canal Museum. So it was an incredibly historic building. And so, yeah, I mean, it's kind of always been a restaurant town. Like there's only maybe 10 or 12 buildings. It's a really small town. And usually 80 % of those are restaurants.

7:51I know. You drive through and it's quick. But you've got Ollie's there with a giant backyard. And we'll talk about your pizza style there. Tremendous pizzas. but then yeah you've got like a few other restaurants and bars in the area and you're just up the street from from New Paltz and of course Kingston let's move on and talk about Kingston I feel like before we talk about Fletcher and Lou Eliza and Ollie's your establishments and what you're building there I'd like to get a sense of some of the other businesses the restaurants the bars I have my favorites that I've been to there's some new ones I have not been to But I've been singing the praises on the show for a long time.

8:28Kingston is probably the most interesting food city in New York right now. In the Northeast, there's just so much talent and diversity up there. Talk about the actual community of chefs and restaurants operating right now. I mean, that's one of the things I love about it is that it's a really strong community of service industry people. Kingston is the right size city where it's got multiple districts. It's got four main districts. It's got the big box store zone, the stockade, which is sort of the old district. You know, the first capital of New York, tons of history. Then it's got Midtown, which is where Eliza, Fletcher & Lou, and Ollie's Slice Shop are.

9:07And then it's got the Rondat district where I have Kingston Wine Company down there. And, you know, Brunette, I love to go down there. There's a lot of great shops in that area. Rosie General. Yeah. You know, Anthony's doing an amazing job. And then, you know, Cleo and the Staccade is great. Mirador just opened right down the block from us. And we've known Nick for a long time buying wine from him. They're doing an amazing job. Um, so like we, you know, it's just the restaurant industry is just like camaraderie. That's one of the best things about it. And it's like, yeah, like you text, you know, another chef and you're like, Hey, can I get some receipt paper?

9:47We're at whatever, you know, anything like, Hey, we're, you know, they were just away in Spain for a minute and, you know, they needed some bocoronas. We're like, yeah, like for sure, you know, whatever. It's just like that camaraderie and like lack of competition. And, you know, on paper, like we're in a relatively isolated area to a degree like but that has been breeding more camaraderie than like competition. Yeah, I love that. That's what that's what it I mean. It means that means so much to me because, you know, this industry is hard, you know, and like having the support of people around you is like kind of what helps you get through it.

10:22So let's talk about Anthony Sasso at Rosie's General. I think that he's such a talent. Many know him from his work in New York City as a chef specializing pastas and just tremendous talent. But he's opened up this all day cafe. I've joked with Anthony before. When are you going to do dinner? Yeah. Talk about your take on Rosie's. I mean, I love the place. I mean, it's right down the street from the wine shop. And it's like, again, you know, even it's big enough where like when I go to I'm in Midtown so much and I don't get down to the waterfront. Yeah. As soon as I'm down there in the wine shop doing stuff there, I'm automatically going there.

10:59I love what he's doing there. And I think he's really found his groove in the last six months. And it's just like consistency. And I don't know. I love it. And he's from Kingston. I mean, he's local too, which I love. It's like more people that realize they came from an awesome town, do what they do in the city, get some chops, whatever, and then move up there and do their thing. And it's awesome to see. We've got Mirador Sherry Bar doing Northern Spanish tapas and and just a lovely place to hang out. Lots of light. Tell us a little bit about your take on that place. Yeah. Love it. I mean, love that they're just down the block.

11:37You know, Nick and Harry did an awesome job getting it off the ground and Masood, the chef, super enthusiastic young chef doing awesome stuff. and yeah it's just again it's exciting to see and I think you know I don't know if they'd be able to open that place in the city and I think like them seeing the writing on the wall of what's happening there and putting their flag down is just like it's just great to see you know I just want to see more I just want to see more. We have a lot of chefs listening to the show folks who maybe operate in New York City or Jersey or the Tri-State I mean is there space for more restaurants are you feeling there's a capacity to open in there and with this demand and with all the folks moving there and all the weekend travelers were recording this in October and I mean I think of the region as being three season I mean it's absolutely like in the summertime it's absolutely and spring it's like the time when you're getting into that nature and then of course fall colors into the holidays it's such a great place almost year round totally and I think now we're going to see year over year with winter just more and more because people are just there full time more skiing and all that Yeah.

12:43Yeah. I mean, we're always going to be doing the seasonality thing and doing people coming through as a destination. That's that's kind of never going to change just in terms of capacity. But, you know, I think that we're we're seeing so many more full time residents. And I do think there's room for more. You know, there's some cool stuff opening. There's a bagel shop going to open behind the hospital. Fancy. She's been cooking in our our kitchen. She's been doing, she did a couple of pop-ups of Fletcher and Lou. She just did the bagel fest and she cooked in the Fletcher and Lou kitchen for that.

13:19So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there is more room. I think, and I'm not sure that everyone would necessarily agree with that. I think that the world needs to get a little easier in terms of the restaurant scope. And then, you know, we need customers. They need to be able to pay real prices for our food. and I think that that is a factor that is going to, you know, that's really what needs to kind of change, I guess is the word, but I do think there's room for more. There's empty storefronts on Broadway. That would be amazing for places. Good. That's what I was getting at. So there's definitely some great properties available there.

13:58Totally. For rent and stuff outside of town as well. And I love that you've been able to share more about the city and I want to talk about your own businesses because there's so much to say. Let's start with Ollie's. You opened in High Falls, and I think right away, folks who really love pizza understand that there's a really special thing happening here because I think it's terrific pie. Underrated, if you ask me, when you talk about pizza in the region, maybe get the press it deserves because it's such a fun hang. How did you define your pizza style? What are you making there? so you know we're kind of doing neapolitan ish kind of thing right it's not we don't follow any of the actual rules of like the eighth a vpn but um my wife and i who met in restaurants in brooklyn um almost 20 years ago um we moved back up up to high falls and we were going to do a pop up um we were trying to do like a wine and pizza thing my dad and i uh used to make pizza together He was really into baking and we built some mud ovens together and made, you know, made pizza all the time.

15:10And so although I didn't work, you know, a ton professionally, I worked in restaurants, you know, a ton, but not so much pizza. But it was always a thing I did. And we were like, look, like this building's available and needs a lot of work. I have a background in construction and design as well. And we just kind of like bit the bullet and just did it. And, you know, like I said, we bought the building in December of 2019, January of 2020. We broke ground and then March happened. Right. And it's just, you know, mayhem, obviously. Just trying to figure out what the world looks like and just like, you know, just how are we going to open a restaurant in this global pandemic?

15:49And especially in this town, like, is anyone even going to come now? And obviously it was a risk before because, again, we got so much influx during that time. It was a big risk. But now it just felt like totally insurmountable. The double-edged sword was that we had tons of people up there all of a sudden. And outdoor dining. Exactly. And the yard was, I mean, we talk about it constantly. The yard was not an afterthought, but inside is what I designed it, put everything into it, wanted to make it this kind of like cozy, cool hang upstate, you know, this big circular bar. And we were like, let's throw some picnic tables outside so that people can eat if they want to take to go.

16:31And it was like, that became like every, we were just like, we didn't open the dining room until October of 21. And we were just like, okay, how many tables can we fit in the yard? We're just going to get him as far enough away and people feel safe. And that's what we did. And it was crazy. Yeah. I think I've never dined inside actually. I've been there only in the yard and I walk in to order pies. I'm like, oh, it's a cool place. It's very moody. But for me, it's like an outdoor hang. It's cool. Let's move on to Eliza, which you opened with the gentleman who was cooking at Phoenicia Diner for years.

17:05And everyone knows Phoenicia Diner for this great reputation for doing up in the Catskills, a very polished style of diner food. We published the book here at Clarkson Potter. And it's just a really terrific story. I've dined at Eliza a couple times and had just amazing food there. What's the style and talk about the history of this place? Yeah. So Chris Bradley, my business partner in Eliza and all the Kingston businesses, he was about to open a place across the street from Eliza on Broadway right before the pandemic. You know, he had design, he had signed a lease and it was with a friend of ours who owned the building.

17:43Essentially, he was able to pull out right in March. And he was just, you know, it just just that's what made sense so we our kids went to school together and um he you know was like let's can i come on board with the ollie's project we're like thank you know amazing yeah so day one we worked together and eliza was kind of born of us making mozzarella at like one o 'clock in the morning being totally overwhelmed by you know what was happening and just everything and you know we we worked together like every day and it was just sort of, it's sort of a combination of our favorite places. And, um, you know, it's European inspired sort of bistro, um, but not in, you know, obviously there's French aspects to it, but it's, it's, you know, he spent a lot of time in Vietnam.

18:29Um, he worked at Gramercy Tavern for, you know, 12 years. And, um, like, you know, he dove deep into cheese and his career and went to the UK and worked in these, you know, cheese factories and, you know, did all, is very eclectic and just kind of like pulled from everywhere and didn't really it was more about the style of the use of ingredients and that and not necessarily one specific yeah it's like a global bistro in many ways and you're gonna have surprises on the specials board you're gonna have some some real like cuts you know burger cuts and things that you get in a traditional bistro setting great vibe um i love i love the way great service i feel like it's just a really nice It feels like it's a well-seasoned restaurant, even though you're pretty young.

19:11Yeah, we're not even a year. We'll be in a year in November. Wow. But I think, you know, that to me, and I really appreciate you saying that, because for me, it kind of lends it like it's kind of our crown jewel in a way. And all of us like Sophie, my wife and Chris and all of us kind of like taking everything we've learned from restaurants and, you know, multiple decades and sort of applying it to the place we want to go. and we have an amazing gm there heather who has an incredible resume as well and like when we met heather we're just like this is pleat like can we work together like you are the person heather's dope i've met her as a customer a couple times and she's she's definitely makes that space really you know and um yeah she's amazing and um we're really lucky to have her and uh yeah so it's just you know it just the level of service is like you know not fussy and just straightforward and making Can you feel at home and you can jump in the bar and grab something or you can, you know, get styled out in the dining room and, you know, we'll make it, you know, we've had some awesome buyouts in the dining room where it's like a real party.

20:15And, you know, when we opened, we had a crazy New Year's party, which is like exactly what the space is great. Yeah, it's a really moody place. You mentioned it a little bit, but, you know, right now we talk to chefs all the time on the show. And like, you know, with the cost of doing business goods and labor just escalating, you know, is there like general sticker shock sometimes when folks enter your restaurant? I mean, how do you negotiate with this as a working operator right now at the end of 24? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some sticker shock for sure. It's just the nature of when we opened and when we bought the building and how much things cost.

20:52And it has to represent that. And, you know, I can live with it because I look at the P &Ls, you know, and it's like I know what it and I think, you know, we can touch on a lot of these subjects because, yes, it's like it's on the tip of everyone's tongue because it's just really difficult to operate right now. But I think what's happening in Kingston to a degree is that there's many, many places that are not raising their prices that need to for fear of alienating their clientele. And, you know, we can use the word local or not, whatever we want to, but that's the case. And it scares me because they're not doing it to the detriment of their own business.

21:33And, you know, I think everyone needs to have more money in their pocket. that money will eventually that's you know bars and restaurants are like the backbone of our cultural economy agree every town i don't care where you are in america the world we're we rate the sort of cultural viability of our towns by our bars and restaurants and it's hard when people don't have the money to support them well even when they want to you know i think that most people also want to have the money to buy better product and i think they understand it but i think that the sort of anger or whatever the animosity towards the final price on the plate tends to be misguided thinking that it's the restaurant owner becoming wealthy exactly this endeavor on the backs of what you know what i mean like and and i understand that that is has happened in America.

22:32Like, it's not that that isn't a real thing, but it's not my case, you know? And, you know, you can't like tell that story to every person coming to sit down. And I understand. I mean, yeah, like no one's getting rich, just trying to keep the lights on and do a service and build an institution that we, you know, we care about, you know? Yeah. And I've spoken with Claire DeBoer about this topic. She runs Sissinghouse on the other side of the river. and you can talk to Jeremiah and Fabian as well. And any of the chefs who operate upstate, no one's like making a killing. It still is a low margin business.

23:08And to be clear, your prices aren't sticker shock worthy. They're actually very modest and in line with like the style of service you provide. You know, it's not like it's outrageous at all. Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree. Fletcher and Lou, next door is your butcher shop with a lot of ambitions. And we talked to a lot of CPG founders and you yourself are one. You've launched a line of seed crackers. And I just think the vision that you have is tremendous. I mean, you're operating these great restaurants and you have a wine shop and you also now are selling products. I think it's really smart.

23:44How did you decide on this model of doing, you know, launching CPG and also having a really tremendous, you know, charcuterie program there too? Well, so Chris is very old friends with Julian Shapiro, who is our other chef partner, and he's the chef of Fletcher and Lou. His parents are French. He's French trained in charcuterie making, and he was running a farm and butcher operation in Kutchog on the North Fork. And he was looking to leave. And we said, look, let's try to make this happen. The building presented itself as something that could house all three of our visions with being symbiotic.

24:27So the idea is that we take in whole animals and other things through Fletcher and Lou. Julian butchers them. Primals go to the restaurant for the grill, etc. And then there's tons of value add stuff. I mean, fresh sausages, charcuterie, pateo and crew, all this stuff. and Julian's, I mean, truly a maniac and an incredibly brilliant chef. And so it's this really interesting relationship between all the businesses. And, you know, they make sausages and meatballs for the slice shop and for High Falls and, you know, we use everything. And that's also kind of like why we, like, I mean, I do believe the prices at Eliza are reasonable, especially for what they are.

25:09For sure. You know, we're using New York farms. we're getting pigs and cows from New York. So again, it's like the Hudson Valley has its own supply chain, which is great. And so, yeah, I mean, trying to use everything and add value to every part of animals is like a big part of what we're doing. And yeah, it's not easy, but it's really fun. It's incredibly fun. Yeah, talk about these seed crackers that you've launched and you're in 30 stores now. Yeah, so we developed the seed cracker for the menu at Eliza from day one. And, you know, just love it. And so this has been kind of my personal project, the seed cracker in terms of CPG.

25:52And it's still very new. And just, yeah, trying to get it off the ground and scale it in a way. And I think, you know, I mean, in terms of the economy of scale, I think that's why chefs do end up turning to CPG because it's a scalable product And they can go outside of their four walls with things that they make and that they're proud of. And we're no different, you know. All right, Ines, tell me about you've written about the short attention span that our dining culture has. And you have a lot of thoughts. You're a terrific writer. And I'd love to tap into that because I think you're maybe a little critical about this.

26:31The idea of the diner having a wandering eye of sorts. I think to me, it's more that, you know, restaurants take time and they need time. And what I kind of mean by that is like, you know, let's say you build a business plan. It takes better part of a year and you go to build out and you get a lease or you buy a building and you build it out and you've put everything, you know, you get your kitchen, whatever. Just the road to getting to opening the doors is so long. And I think, you know, most restaurants when they open right off the bat aren't great. I mean, some are obviously better than others.

27:07And that's a generalization that is no in no way meant to be disparaging. It's just that a restaurant, usually if someone who's especially a chef who's really like into their craft and doing it and developing it, it's probably going to be better in six months, maybe better in a year if they're real. I just love the idea of institutions. And I think that there's a degree in social media that can push us towards a shorter attention span where I think that it pushes people to say, what's next? What's next? What's next? And to me, I just think I really like places that can have their time and be given the space they need to be creative and really develop what it is about a restaurant and the passion about it.