523: Real Talk From New York City Chefs with Suzanne Cupps & Harold Dieterle

26:32Everybody loves Italian food, I should say. And I think the other part is it's predictable, right? When you go to an Italian restaurant, a lot of times you're going to get your favorite thing. If you're going to, for example, Via Corotta, you're probably not going every time and saying, oh, let me I've never tried this. Let me try this. A lot of times you're going and you're saying, I want this dish. I like this dish. And I think that is maybe not true for all Italian, but a lot of like the restaurants in New York that people go to because they like the cacio e pepe. They want the, you know, the fill in the blank Italian food.

27:09There's so many dishes that are very craveable. And I don't cook Italian. And I said, let me leave the people who do Italian well to do it well. And so I looked at what's the second group of restaurants. And I really think Asian as a whole, not necessarily one culture, one cuisine. But if you look at sushi, you look at dumplings, ramen, hot pot, and any Korean kind of food, especially K-Town area. I feel like that's a secondary market where people are always excited to eat different types of Asian cuisine. And for me, that's kind of where my heart is. I love the flavors, the techniques, the types of dishes of Asian cuisine all over.

27:57And so that's kind of what I thought might be a direction to go. Again, it wasn't really the big idea, but just kind of thinking without having a specific... Cuisine? Not even cuisine, but pitch of what the restaurant is. I was trying to figure out what directions I wanted to go. So Lola means grandmother in Tagalog. And of course, your Filipino heritage means something to you. It's your personal story. But what really interests me in what you're doing at Lola's is you obviously took that idea that Asian food is big in New York and that it spans all neighborhoods. but you also have this such a clear new American background, like especially with grammar scene, untitled in a way, like, so you clearly wanted style of service and the way the dishes are presented on the menu to read new American in a way.

28:50This is of course my reading. So I clearly see that, that kind of Asian does well, but also you have the skillset that isn't, you weren't working at Morimoto like you have. So like, how did you square that with your menu development? I realized early on, too, that Asian wasn't the heart of how I cook. Like you said, kind of that new American farmers. I don't really love the farm to table. You know, there's so many tags that people throw around. But sure, however you want to think about it. I what I wanted to be the heart of Lowellism, maybe this this became the big idea was the sourcing. So not just great vegetables that are local, but really good grains, interesting vinegars, other ingredients that I felt were just slightly different or more nuanced than you're used to getting.

29:50That became kind of the heart of the menu when I started designing that. And as I looked for what is the name, what's the concept of the restaurant, my parents are in their 80s. And a few years ago, my dad and mom had written down all the stories from World War II of his mom and my Lola and his family. And it's a very inspirational story as most, you know, a lot of people have these stories in wartime of just a really strong, heroic woman who had to flee, took her kids, left everything else, went in hiding in the mountains, delivered her own baby. escaped to safety, and then she passed away about a year later.

30:38So not someone I ever had a relationship with, but just someone who allowed me to be here. And my parents, because they're getting older, they wanted to write these stories down. They hand wrote the stories so that my sister brother and I would always have remembrance of my grandmother and what she did and what it was like when my dad grew up. So I realized that my life has had two distinct time periods. One, when I lived in the South before I was cooking, before, you know, I was in college. And then one, when I've been in New York and a completely different, you know, importance put on food and just a different lifestyle.

31:25And so I wanted Lola's to be able to bring together those things without it having to be about me. It's not, you don't walk in and say, oh, this is what Suzanne likes to eat or this is a recipe from her mom necessarily. It's really about my time that I spent in the South, not being Southern, but living in the South, being in the North, also not really having family here and being shaped by the people I worked for, really, and putting that all together. So not only will you see Asian influence on the menu, but you'll also see a lot of Southern influence. And I know that's a roundabout way of talking about it, but the heart of how I cook and what I cook is really based on the ingredients.

32:10And I am inspired by getting something new in or making the discovery of a new rice or a new variety of squash or whatever it is. And so that's kind of what drives the entire menu. Well, thank you for sharing that story. I think it's really terrific that we got into your family history. And it clearly is part of the ethic of Lola's. And it has, I mean, you see your inspiration from Filipino cooking in many places. But it feels like a true third-person restaurant, the way that your places like Anissa and Gramercy and Untitled, you know, while Anidolo ran that restaurant, it was Anissa, you know, and same with Gramercy Tavern.

32:55I think some listeners may even not know who Mike Anthony is, which is a shame because the guy is incredible. So it seems like you're that kind of throwback style because it seems like a lot of restaurants now in New York that open, not all, but many are that first-person restaurant, my family's story, I'm the chef. And that's just the way the media covers it too. So it's no critique. But I just think it's a tricky mix doing Southern and Asian. And I think it could have been done in so many different ways. So many like we're doing fish sauce, this and that and that and making it over. But what I love about your menu, and we'll get into the dishes, is that it's clearly your technique and your sourcing is top of mind.

33:38And I think that's what makes it special. And I'd love to hear about some of the dishes to you that really split that difference. That doesn't make you feel, and I'll say the word fusion, but whatever, that word is tricky. But like something that shows some Asian and some Southern, but does it in your way. Sure. I think one of the dishes that kind of mixes is our crispy chicken thighs. Yes. Very good. Very good dish. Thanks. Excellent. I think that's one of them that will probably stay on the menu for a long time. And the inspiration comes from a lot of different places. At the heart of it, the chicken thighs are marinated in a Filipino adobo type of recipe.

34:28So it's a gluten-free soy sauce, bay leaf, black pepper, garlic, which is kind of what you'll find when you eat a traditional Filipino adobo. However, the way that it's presented and finished cooking is very different. So some might not even put those two together. It's really, really lightly battered in cornstarch and rice flour. Makes it crispy but not a heavy breading. double fried and then we're serving it with a fermented hot honey sauce and also a coconut vinegar and a little kind of plate of pickles as well. So whereas the marinade is very inspired by chicken adobo, fried chicken and pickles feels a little southern, the hot honey as well, but then the vinegar on it is very Filipino.

35:24It's something that you would find on a Filipino table. It's called suka. Not the same exact type of recipe, but that idea. And so I'm less, when I'm designing a dish, I'm less saying this is Filipino, this is Southern, this is Japanese. But I really like kind of mixing in a way that feels natural, little bits and pieces from the different cultures, the different regions, and coming up with a dish that still feels like New York. It still feels like the farmer's market, even if it's fried chicken. Absolutely. I mean, it's giving a lot of karage. I think I'd find it in Queens at like a stall potentially and love the batter on it.

36:10And it's very easy to eat a lot of it. So I love that. And I think your house salad really stuck out. because it features two things I really love, which are crunchy things and ranch dressing. So respect to that, what made you kind of bring a little bit of unexpected crunch to a salad? So this one is not a family recipe, but something I grew up eating. It's called on the menu Peraiso House Salad. So that's my family name, Peraiso. And growing up in the 80s, my mom always cooked a very well-balanced diet. You know, we had carb and protein and vegetable and we always had dessert afterwards. But we would normally have a salad and usually it was iceberg, ranch and pretzels.

36:55So great. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't like anything other than iceberg till probably I was about, I don't know, 22, 23 or something like that. Maybe even older. But just like love the idea of something very simple and that you could eat with almost any dish or any time during the menu. You could eat it at the beginning if you wanted a salad. You could eat it with your fried chicken and your pulled pork dish. It could kind of fit in anywhere. And we've also obviously done a more farmer's market variety. Right now there's really beautiful chicories at the market, and we're buying Martin's pretzels from Union Square Green Market and making our house-made ranch.

37:36So I feel like it's still grounded here, but that one's a little reminiscent of my childhood. Super delicious. It's putting pretzels into salads is something that is new to me, which is a shame because I think croutons are overrated. Put more pretzels in salads. Like love that that was your family history. And I know this is probably not on the menu because I dined a few weeks ago and it was like the end of the season. But you did these mini BLT toasts. And the idea of putting the BLT in a toast format is really fresh. And I think I talked about it on this show, actually, about how much I loved it.

38:09Tell me a little bit about that one. A couple years ago, I was making BLTs. I was actually during the pandemic and they were so good. And people would come back and come back. You know, it was kind of when, you know, there was a window that you would come and get it or you could get takeout. And I just thought, what a bummer. What a miss if we can't do a BLT on our menu just because it's a little too casual or because I didn't want a sandwich. And so I was thinking that it would be a really fun way to start off your meal. It's really bold, but also very fresh. I didn't want to do a complete sandwich so people would get full.

38:44So I thought it would be cool to do an open face toast. And to be honest, it took a week or so to figure out a version that would actually work so that it would be easy enough to eat. But, I mean, we're buying really good heritage bacon and we make a little caramelized onion bacon jam. that's super tasty. We had a dill aioli, made a little crunchy cabbage slaw, which was the lettuce part of it. And then the tomatoes are just, were just phenomenal this year. I mean, some years are better than others, but an heirloom tomato is always one of my favorites. And then the little hidden component to kind of make it fit the menu as well is we made a little kimchi, our own kimchi paste, and we mixed that with beefsteak tomato.

39:31So there was a little layer of the kimchi tomato in between, which I think was the unexpected twist of flavor. Yeah, yeah. It was a delicious couple bites. And I feel like you'll be toasting into the fall, into the winter. Do you like this format a lot? Well, I actually just switched it just about a week ago. And I decided to put my favorite pimento cheese on the toast. So it's pimento cheese with the caramelized bacon jam. And it has kind of like some raw, almost like crudite turnips and radish and dill, and then a little really carefully done pickled jalapenos on top. Oh, fun. So I think it's very different than the BLT version, but I think it's about just as craveable, especially for this time of year.

40:19So let me ask you, zooming out, how do you get people to keep coming back? Because I think that's so essential to your business model. You obviously have gotten great press, so people are coming in for discovery. But also, that's not the heart of a restaurant. You want regulars. And I know you know that working at, of course, Gramercy Tavern. I would say some of the best regulars you're going to find are at those restaurants. How do you do that? I mean, is there a way with the menu development or is it, I mean, style of service, you talked about just being professional and cool. But, like, how do you do that?

40:52That's definitely the goal for sure. And I was a little worried. I didn't know what Nomad neighborhood would be for us. I didn't know, is it a neighborhood? Are there people that live close by? And as we've been open, we keep meeting more and more neighbors. So I think it is more of a neighborhood. There are more diners than I originally thought. It's also a great area for business. And the other part of it is it's just so convenient. It's really convenient to most neighborhoods in New York, even in Brooklyn, where I am in Jersey. It's in the middle, so it's easy. So I think that we're really trying to get as many people to come back.

41:34And part of that is, I think that the food I cook is very, not just approachable, it's a little craveable. So it's something that you could say, oh, I really want that fried fish lettuce wrap, or I really want to come back for the naan. But then it's also very fresh tasting, very thoughtfully sourced and really healthy at the heart of it. And so I think it's food that you could eat once or twice a week if you wanted. And the price point, we're really trying to keep it fair as well. So it's not a special occasion restaurant. Sure, you could have your birthday party there if you wanted, but it's really meant to be a restaurant that you can come in a t-shirt, you can come on a Tuesday night, you can bring your parents on a Saturday, a little bit of both.

42:19And I think with the menu, both from beverage and food perspective, we want it to be where there are some favorites. And it is something that when you come back, you say, oh, I want to go back for this dish. But that really there's something new every time you come as well. So it feels like there's a reason to go back versus, oh, I just ate that, you know, three weeks ago. I think the way that we want to rotate the menu and we have already is that there's something new for you to try as well. So glad you answered that way. I mean, I really appreciate it because it's one of those, like, it's like the special sauce of why a restaurant works.

42:55You just, you can't be thrown only specials on all the time and expect people to come back. I mean, that's just like the math. You need to have consistency. But also, it's such a competitive city to be able to offer craveable dishes at a price point that seems fair. I mean, that's really hard. How are you dealing with pricing right now? Because I think COG's cost of goods are still very high, especially compared to pre-pandemic levels. We just had a major election where cost sensitivity and pricing was seriously at the top of the list for why people voted the way they did. So how do you think about that?

43:32It's very important. We're talking about that daily. And it's not just, you know, some restaurants when they open, they put the prices lower and then once the review comes or a certain point, they raise them. And I think it is a business. So we're going to have to continue to look and as things increase and as the seasons go, like sometimes the summer is a more expensive season for buying produce. So there's just there's flows during the year, but we've just made it a priority to have for our guests to be able to have a meal that feels good and to be even the portion size. I think sometimes you go to restaurants and the portion is so small that really you have to buy two of one dish or it's really not enough where we try to portion it.

44:22So you could eat it yourself, but it's really easy to share amongst two people. And it's still, you know, big enough for four people to get a bite or two of every dish. So I think there's different ways to look at it. But I want people to, when they sit down and they get a dish in front of them, their first thought is not, oh, is this worth the price? Which I think at some restaurants, it's hard to, you know, separate. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. So many, I mean, we think about price always as diners. I mean, it's always on there, like, is this overpriced, is this underpriced? And of course, when it's like, you know, the classic move, you know, you should order two, you should order three.

45:03I mean, my hot take is that, like, that's like the worst possible thing. Like, and the fact that you're articulating that, that you want to actually just structure the menu to be like full enough, the dishes, for it to be like for the group. But that's hard because you have like these prices increasing. I mean, is there an area where you feel like you can make up for it? I mean, this is a tough question and I appreciate your honesty, like where you can make up the margin a little bit. You know, we're so new that every week is a little different in terms of what our costs and what we're experiencing.

45:36I mean, I think one is that I am really careful with the type of ingredients we buy. So I don't buy a lot of what traditional specialty ingredients. So, I don't know, caviar, morel mushrooms, like things like that. But at the same time, buying from the farmer's market and heritage farmers and good seafood, it is not cheap at all. And so it is that balance of how many seafood dishes can I put on the menu? You know, if the cost of my item is really expensive, should I make it like a smaller, small plate versus a larger plate? You know, I think there is that work that you have to do as a restaurant owner to make it where it's palatable for the guest.

46:22And so if it's something that is a little more expensive, maybe putting it in a smaller portion so people can get that fix versus, you know, charging 60, 80 bucks for something. Yeah. As hard as a diner sometimes. Impossible question to answer. You did it really well. That was a really, really good answer. Suzanne, let me ask you, where do you want to be in one year and where do you want to be in five years? In one year, I feel like we're getting there. One year, I feel like we're still going to be learning. And so I feel like I'm going to be in the restaurant every day doing the things that I'm doing right now, which is production, which is taking out the trash, which is, you know, pretty much hands on every day.

47:07because we're still growing a business. And I'm excited for new people to come in. I'm really excited for people who've been there once, twice, 10 times. We've had many, many regulars already who've been in 15 times, which is pretty awesome. You have a 15-timer? Yeah. Wow, a 15-timer. Well, that's great. I mean, that's... We need lots of 15-timers. Okay. So we're working on it. No, that's amazing. So I think it's consistency because the thing is when someone comes in, And whether they only read the review from Melissa Clark or their friend told them or they saw it on Instagram and they come in for the first time and they say it wasn't as good as it was hyped up to be, then they're probably not coming back again.

47:47And then if it's someone who's returning, we want to make sure that it's just as good as that first visit. And if not, like how do we pivot in the moment and make it better? So really this first year is like consistency, growing the business and getting ourselves into a place where it doesn't feel like routine, but it feels a little more natural. Five years, I don't know. I know, it's a hard one. You know, obviously that would just be, you know, half or a third way through the lease. So really, again, hopefully. I mean, profitability is probably something you probably wouldn't want to have. Yeah, for sure.

48:27I think looking at year five is much different than looking at the finances of year one. You know, having everything paid off and really being in a different position financially is really important. I'm hoping it doesn't take to year five, though. But I don't know. You know, people always like the first week we're open, everybody's asking, oh, was there going to be another Loloz? Oh, my gosh. How do you respond to that? You know, again, my whole career has been a pleasant surprise. And of course, I've worked for it, but I like the idea of not really knowing what's next and really just kind of not having head down, only focus so narrowly, but being able to really put everything into this moment in time in this restaurant so that it creates opportunities for my staff, for the people around me, for us to really succeed.

49:21and then whatever that success looks like, then, you know, whether it's expansion, whether it's growth for people, like that's my goal is to get it in such a great place that it creates opportunities. You think about Beards, you think about Best New Chef, do you think about BA, all that recognition that, you know, that is placed deservedly on chefs and you're like super in that window for your next 12 months to be considered for all of those? I think you have to think about it. It's less about, again, like the ego or the title, but it's so competitive of a market. And for, you know, when we got the review, it boosted business so much, but you always see a little drop off because someone else is coming up.

50:03And so to be able to stay relevant in New York or in any city is just important. And so honors like that, awards, it's not the reason that we're doing it. And it's not going to give us our worth, you know, in this industry, but it is going to keep us on the top of people's minds and keep us busy. And so, of course, those are important for us to kind of keep our eyes on. Editors and voters, make a visit. You make up your mind, but make a visit. I love your restaurant. It's really great. On This is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious.

50:43Taste check. Are you ready? I'm ready. The best fruit? Peaches. From where? South or north? Oh, yeah. I'm from South Carolina. I know. I know. But I live in the north, so I'll take any of them. Okay, great. The worst vegetable? Just not really into broccoli or cauliflower. Holy. Those are like the workhorses. Tell me why. I mean, I love a sprouting cauliflower. I love a broccolini. the like juicy stems, but I don't like it when it has that like hard head. I don't know, just like a lot of bad steamed broccoli and cauliflower growing up. Yeah, yeah, that will scar you for sure. The best dessert?

51:27A slice of cake. Like birthday cake, wedding cake, I can kind of take anything. That's the best answer. Is it chocolate, vanilla? What's the... Right now I'm on chocolate kick, but again, simple. Vanilla with chocolate icing, chocolate with chocolate icing, something like that. What's the best slice of cake in New York? Oh, I love in my neighborhood in Prospect Heights, there's a little cupcake bake shop and they have this Brooklyn blackout. I'm only allowed to go once a month. Seriously. It's like a$7 slice of cake. I could eat it for three days, but sometimes it goes away in one day. So once a month allowed.

52:03I love a good cake habit. They're hard to cake. Yeah. I know what you're saying. Your favorite New York City restaurant that is not your own. Right now, Superiority Burger. It's so good. Speed, preach. Yeah. He cooks vegetables a lot like I do. Well, I don't want to say a lot like I do. He sources vegetables like I do. And he just has delicious, simple preparations. And they're always good. It's really a cool restaurant. It's cool. And it's fun. It's so different than I would have ever come up with. And so it's quirky and easy and comfortable. All the things I like. Restaurant you are most excited to visit in the world?

52:43Actually, in the U.S. I just have some friends who have opened places, and I'm just thrilled about them, and I can't wait to go. Two of my friends opened Birdies in Austin, Texas, folks I worked with at Gramercy and Untitled. And it's killing it, and I can't wait to go see. They have a very different concept. Arjav and Tracy have been on the show, and yes, I think that place is pretty great. Yeah, they're very close friends. And then similarly, a friend of mine opened Charlie's Napa Valley and her, well, it's her brother's restaurant she helped open. And he was at French Laundry and really like technical places.

53:24And it just looks amazing. And I feel like restaurants need the love and support of friends, of neighbors, of everything. It's so hard to keep it going. And so rather than dream about going to visit, you know, somewhere in London or Paris, I'd really just want to make a trip to support friends and see what they're doing. I love that answer. The restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? I think it would be Chanterelle. Yeah. This is way back because when I was a new cook, I can't remember what year it closed, but it was still open. And it was just one of those places that I really wanted to go.

54:02and Anita worked there and very close with the owners. Dave Waltock. Yeah. And I just always thought I would understand the industry more or I just wanted to see his cooking there and I never made it. Yeah. It was a special restaurant, great location, Tribeca. So many people came out of those kitchens. So I love that answer. We should talk about Chantrelle more. I think you're onto something. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food. Oh, I've only been once, but I want to go to Tokyo. I want to go back. It was a short trip. And for sure, that's all the food that I crave and all the food I want to eat.

54:41And just like what a big, impressive, cool city it is. Last question, your favorite sandwich? Tomato. White bread, a little mayonnaise, tomato. Mayonnaise choice? I mean, growing up, we ate Miracle Whip, which is not my thing anymore. Oh, my gosh. We were just talking about that earlier today. I mean, it's not my thing anymore. I could still eat it. I just don't eat it anymore. I could still eat it too. I mean, you could bring it back. Maybe I will. I haven't had it in years, so maybe I still love it. I mean, now I go for the Kewpie mayo, but Miracle Whip, my grandfather in central Pennsylvania had a farm, so we would go growing up, and he knew tomato sandwiches were my favorite.

55:23so every dinner before dinner started, he would make me really thin white bread, Miracle Whip tomato sandwich. It was like an appetizer every night when I was there. What a great memory. What a great sandwich and you clearly have channeled it a little bit on your own menu. Bring back Miracle Whip. I think you should do it. All right, I'll see. You're the one to bring it back in the lexicon. You've got the juice. Suzanne Cupps, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thanks for having me.

55:59Harold Deedle, welcome to This is Taste. Really great to see you. Great to see you too, man. I feel like we've known each other for like 15 years. I know, we're showing our age now. We're showing our age longer because I remember I met you during press for Top Chef Season 1. I think that's when I met you. Really? I think I met you during that little press cycle and then I went to your restaurant, Perilla. I think that was how that went. Wow. We have a lot to cover. We sure do. Il Toteno, we'll talk about your new restaurant, downtown New York, and really a little bit of television talk. And I want to ask you, though, just to start, you won season one of Top Chef, which debuted in 2006.

56:41And really, take us back to filming that show, and we're going to touch on the show, because obviously, this is your legacy. You won the season. And really, what's it like filming that first season? yeah it was pretty wild uh filming the first season of top chef um you know no you know the producers the magical elves had just come off of shooting i think the second season first or second season project runway um so that's what they knew they knew competition but you know they didn't really understand the concept of like you know you design a dress and it can like sit there for a while um with food it's you know you have to produce the food you have to eat and then judges just have to eat the food right away.

57:22And Tom really understood that. Tom Cloakio really understood that. So he was instrumental in, you know, kind of making that happen. It was obvious, Harold, during that first season that, you know, the casting was professionals, people who had worked in restaurants. It wasn't like the way the show's evolved and they've taken chefs and cooks from all over. And really the food, the way it's presented on television, I think why the show was such big hit was was really really unique and and thought through and and really restaurant food did you feel like when you were there that you were with your peers in kind of that competitor circle i did i i thought there were some really talented chefs um i think they've done a much better job um in past seasons with the actual challenges you know there's some challenges where i was like you know it was like running your nails across a chalkboard because i was like massively frustrated like um you know making food out of a convenience store wasn't my favorite and there was a couple others and then towards the end when you get closer to the finale you know we went up to um you know uh Schaefer State and you know obviously for the finale it's like you know make your make your best meal which was like you know right up my alley which was very enjoyable yeah and you took you took it home I did we took it home you took it home and and uh Last Top Chef question.

58:43I want to know, it's kind of remarkable how the show has actually gotten more popular over time. It's kind of the contrast to most television shows that wane and like burn out. But what can you attribute that to? I think, you know, I think it's more popular. I think the judges all take the role extremely serious. I know Tom and Gail take the role extremely serious. So it's like, you know, neither one of them are cashing it in. And I think Bravo has done a good job to kind of keep it fresh and, you know, add little twists season by season to, you know, keep it fresh and interesting. And do you think it says something, too, about, you know, 2007 was a different audience?

59:27You know, food was not mainstream as much. What has it been like to see the rise of just food culture? Oh, I mean, it's crazy. I think that's absolutely right. I think, you know, people are, you know, I mean, I have family members that just have the Food Network on all day long. It's just it's on. They might not be watching it, but it's on in the background. Like, you know, someone who is, you know, might have Fox News on in the background all day long, which, you know, isn't isn't my cup of tea for sure. But like, you know, I have family members that just they just have the Food Network on. That's what they do.

1:00:03Yeah. I'm seeing knife cuts and different techniques is like part of like what like it's pop culture now. Like we and back then you were kind of on the fringes as a as a chef on television. I mean, I think competition was was it kind of started. I mean, Iron Chef, of course, but then Top Chef. And, you know, why do you think they keep it on? I think there's certainly an appetite for it. I think people like to watch other folks compete. I mean, it's, you know, it's like sports with cooking. You know, that's kind of the reason why I got into it. I was always a highly competitive person. And my family didn't understand the career path that I had chosen because they never really got to see me do it or eat my food because everybody was living in Long Island.

1:00:52They didn't really come to the city very often. I was cooking in the city. And then when they saw me compete, you know, they actually, you know, saw what I'd been, And, you know, kind of working the better part at that point of 15 years towards. Wow. You know, a family barbecue must have been different after you won Top Chef. Yes. Yes. Yes. Everybody's like, don't judge my food. I'm like, it's totally fine. It's totally fine. All right. So let's go back to Perilla, which you opened after you won Top Chef. Just a terrific restaurant. And I love that we can kind of discuss this because it feels like a moment in time in history.

1:01:25You know, you were melding Asian cuisine with New American, like a rubric of New American. And back then, such a fresh approach. I mean, it felt like a scaled down neighborhood version of Spice Market. John George is a big restaurant, me packing. But what was that like for you doing this food that kind of melded Asian cuisine with New American? Yeah, it's interesting you say Spice Market because Spice Market was definitely a restaurant that I thought about a lot. also Vang, going back even further, were two restaurants that I really admired. And I had spent a little bit of time in Thailand at this point.

1:02:03So I had a tremendous passion for Thai food. Yeah, it was just cooking my food. I worked for Jimmy Bradley, Danny Abrams for a number of years at the Harrison. And the food was very New American, Mediterranean, Italian leaning. and, you know, I would make an Asian dish and Jimmy would be like, what's this kid? What are we doing here? This isn't, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't the Harrison food. So I was, you know, really anxious, um, to cook my food. Um, and that's, you know, it was probably, you know, I made a lot of mistakes there. I learned a lot, um, mostly on how I was a leader in the kitchen and, you know, worked with, worked with the kitchen crew.

1:02:50I was still young and probably didn't have the best manners. But you get older and you chill out a little bit and you figure it out. Yeah, I'm glad that you can admit that. I think a few chefs will admit that when you're young, you're maybe not fully with it with the management side of the kitchen. Yeah, for sure. And that can be quite stressful. And, of course, things can go south there. Back to your interest in Asian cuisine. You know, when you're trying to sneak on Asian specials onto this, the Harrison, just a really iconic, important new American restaurant in New York City really kind of set the table for a lot of other new American restaurants.

1:03:27But how did you get into cooking with Asian flavors? Was it through travel? Was it through cookbooks? What were you? Yeah, I actually was eating. I was always fascinated with eating Thai food. Yeah. One of my favorite cuisines still is one of my favorite cuisines to eat and cook. So that's really how it started. And then I took a vacation to Thailand for a couple of weeks while I was at the Harrison. And then that just kind of, you know, really accelerated the process of like, you know, this is something I want to lean into. Yeah. I mean, you're cooking and I'm going to get into Kinshop. But, you know, at both restaurants, you clearly were a student of the game.

1:04:03And I feel like you were at a time when, you know, our restaurant landscape in New York was not as focused on Asian cuisine. And we'll talk a little bit about representation later. But, I mean, I want to get a sense of what types of flavors were you bringing? I mean, you named a restaurant, Perilla, which is cool, and introducing a really important Asian ingredient to the lexicon. But, you know, what were you cooking with? Yeah. It was a little all over the place. You know, it wasn't really dialed into specifically Thai food. It was, you know, I was using some Vietnamese ingredients. I was using some, you know, like making, you know, crudos with, you know, putting shiradashi with tomato water and yuzu.

1:04:45So very Japanese influenced. You know, I had a play on Nobu's miso glaze black cod. I was using Thai black bean paste and broiling it over, you know, over black cod. So going in a little different direction. So it was a bit all over the place as far as Asian ingredients. I wouldn't say that there was like, you know, a North Star. It was, you know, it was a bit all over the place. And, you know, I love Asian food. So, yeah. And like important idea to further that at that time, because it's introducing these flavors to a wide audience when unfortunately at the time, you know, a lot of Asian cooking in New York were, you know, Koreatown.

1:05:28You're out in Brooklyn or Queens for Chinese, like Cantonese and Sichuan. I mean, it's a different. I mean, it's so long ago. It's almost 20 years ago that we're talking about. So I feel like you definitely opened a lot of eyes. Cool. Thank you. Appreciate that. You opened Kinshop and it was a big hit. And I'm going to agree what Ryan Sutton wrote in Eater when you closed in 2015. Quote, Kinshop helped to bring the sour, spicy, funky flavors of Thailand into the culinary mainstream, priming the palates of New Yorkers to crave the more authentic cooking of Andy Ricker's Northern Thai Pok Pok, which arrives in 2012.

1:06:06or of Pan Thai Uncle Boone's opened by a pair of per se vets in 2013. Love Ryan Sutton's writing. He's terrific. Yeah, he sure is. You know, he's a really great observation there. Much has changed in the New York City restaurant scene, and Asian-American chefs have thankfully been given platforms, awards, and recognition very deservingly. Your Asian cooking was absolutely phenomenal. As I've said, I've really enjoyed your food, and Kinshop was one of my favorite restaurants at the time. it was open. So you got a lot of deserved attention. Looking back though, you know, what were you feeling being like the white guy cooking Asian food?

1:06:43What was going through your head? I think the concept behind Kinshap always was taking, it was never meant to be authentic. It was taking my experience as a chef and cooking techniques using New York seasonal ingredients and applying them to Thai classics and, you know, Thai-focused dishes. That was always kind of the concept. I never wanted it to be authentic because trying to cook authentic Thai food in New York City with the ingredients that we have access to is very challenging. Yeah. It's, you know, there's a tremendous amount of variance, what you can get overseas versus here. So I hope I made that clear when I was trying to create that food.

1:07:30I don't know if I did. Um, but again, it was also a tricky time, like you said, where people would, you know, for Thai food that they would be going to, um, you know, they'd be going to Woodside, they'd be going to Queens. Yeah, yeah, correct. And, you know, it was a much lower price point. So people were constantly, and I think less of that goes on now because I think consumers understand much more of the cost of operating a restaurant than they did back then. But I would constantly be getting comments like, well, why would I eat here? I can go to, I can go to Woodside and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, but I'm like, I'm buying the best ingredients available.

1:08:05Like 100%. I'm like, if you can't pick that up, I'm like, I don't know. I'll tell you, I'm sorry. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm using all premium ingredients. And I was like, I know where Shreepa Pie buys the ingredients and I love Shreepa Pie, but they're not spending money like I'm spending. Yeah. And you also had a different footprint for real estate and you had to, you know, keep up with that as well. Yeah. And like, you know, just remembering Kinshop, you know, this is a terrific restaurant, You know, format wise, it's introducing some some classic styles of service. But also, of course, it's your interpretation as a creative guy wanting to bring the flavors of Thailand that you love so much to the forefront.

1:08:38And really, you know, it's not the appropriation committee at all. You know, I just want to have an open conversation. I was a joke. I know you were. I know you were smiling when you said it. And I just I want our show to tackle these because, you know, it comes up probably still today. Like, oh, Harold is the guy, the white guy cooking Thai food. But like, there's a story behind it. Right. And I'm here to say, having covered this city for 20 years, how important that restaurant was. And it's led to many other chefs succeeding. And as I mentioned before, thankfully, there is more representation in our city.

1:09:12And, you know, I just wrote a book about Korean food. And honestly, seeing so many Korean-American chefs getting all the big awards. Yeah. Terrific. Yeah, I agree. Let's talk about Il Totono. You know, I got to enjoy a meal there about six weeks ago. And honestly, Harold, I continue to be a fan of your restaurants. Thanks, man. And I'm just, I think that these restaurants are, they're just like so well thought through. And I love the food. But tell us, you know, what's the idea here from the chef's mouth? Yeah. You know, during the pandemic, everybody kind of, I find, learned a hobby or such. True.

1:09:49True enough. And I was making edibles and dry-aging fish. So I picked up two. How'd the edibles business go? Well, New York is a disaster on that front. I know. If it wasn't, I might be doing something totally different right now. But New York, the cannabis legislation is just not. Or I would say the rollout for cannabis-led businesses was not well thought out. But anyway, that can be the next. We can talk about the next show. Yeah, the next show. We can talk about that. and dry aging fish. So I was fishing a lot because it was one of the things, you know, you're out in open air, it was safe to do.

1:10:24I was, I was fishing a lot, bringing home a lot of fish and dry aging it at home. And it was pretty, it was something that was pretty cool. Something I really, I really got into. And then, you know, I've been, was thinking about getting back in the game and, and, and, you know, I grew up in a Sicilian American household and was really thinking about making, you know, you know, a restaurant based around seafood and Southern Italian, Southern Italian specifically. And here we are. Here we are. And I'll get into the dry aged program because it's very cool. And also your delicate work with crudos.

1:10:58And I love that. I love to see crudos on menus. Yeah, me too. Me too. That's actually like cutting fish and coming up with crudo dishes is the highlight of my day. That's that's it's really my passion. It's it's really cool. But but here, let me ask you, like you had been out of the restaurant game for about a decade and and what you know in 2024 maybe a little before what draws you back into this complete hellscape of an industry that we've documented on the show is is so challenging to turn a profit um sorry no yeah i mean it's really you know it was really i felt like i had something more to offer creatively that i wasn't able to do as a consultant and that's really it.

1:11:42I felt like I had this restaurant idea. I'm passionate about the food. I'm passionate about fishing, where the fish is sourced, the dry aging program. I enjoy cutting the fish. Yeah, so it's purely passion-based. Yeah. Whether it's going to work from a business perspective, we shall see, but it is very, it's a passion-driven decision. So you had a consulting job before and then you're thrown out on the line. I mean, you didn't mention the line. I mean, did you miss the line? No. At my age, no. I was going to say like it seemed - I still work the line, but it's not something that I'm just like, oh, I want to show these kids how great I am on the line and just talk trash the whole time while I'm cooking better than them.

1:12:30Yes, I can absolutely do that, but it's like working the line at 47 years old is just not, it's not an attractive adventure. Yeah. Like my body, like I leave work and I like my body because I'm an old man. I am not, I am not my twenties anymore. Yeah. Yeah. What's what, when you're working the line physically, what's, what are some of the most challenging moves that you have? Um, I mean, I, you know, you're, you just start getting older and shit just starts hurting, man. That's just it. Is it like the bending? Cause there's a lot of bending. I wouldn't say it's the bending. Like, you know, I was a high school, I was a high school tennis player.

1:13:00So I have a lot of arthritis. it's either arthritis to pinch nerve carpal tunnel or something in my wrist so like i have to wear a wrist brace it's like shit like that yeah it's like it's not it's not romantic it's like old man shit it's all your words it's old man shit yeah yeah but i mean you're there and i love seeing you in the restaurant and of course like being the executive chef you you certainly don't have to work the line all the time because that's not the role the role is to conceive the menu and let's get into that yeah you know crudos um describe your approach to thinking about these crudos menus i mean i love compachi with with olives and you know spicy passion fruit koulatura you're using the roman fish sauce in there and really with passion fruit just having that absolute like razor razor's edge of balance uh really high one of the highlights i had but i love it i love crudos yeah me too that's this probably as far as the crudos the the signature dish of the restaurant i'd say yeah um and you know it's it's funny because like you know it all it all it does kind of like all roll back to my love of asian food to some degree because it's like okay like what's kola tor it's like it's fancy fish sauce yeah so it's you know we're we're we're using that um you know generous generously in that dish and instead of putting salt in it i'm putting the kola tor and seasoning it like it's fish sauce it's you know it's sweet it's sour it's a little spicy it's salty so it's you know it's all i'm still still thinking about asian food even though i'm making italian yeah i mean using roman fish sauce with passion fruit i mean that's that's that's more like vietnam thailand than than rome but but i mean it's it's obvious with with you know but i mean passion fruit do grow and you know they grow in sicily around around mount etna where you have that you know that that really amazing um you know that amazing soil so it's it's it people don't people don't think of it as being like a tropical climate even though it really is yeah of course correction good good note there because i think you're right In southern Italy, the climate is so different than your vacation to Bologna.

1:14:56Correct. Much different. Yeah. Let's talk about pastas and your approach. They're dente. I just got back from Rome. They're dente in the best possible way. This is a great bowl of pasta downtown and big fan of it. What makes a great restaurant pasta dish, Harold? Oh, I think it's something. I think, you know, what is it? I think if you're appealing to someone who's actually a very, very good home cook, it's making something that they either don't have the time, the access to ingredients to, and then for everybody else, it's having options that make them feel like comfort food. Yeah. So I think we try to do a little bit of both.

1:15:39You know, the crab pasta is something that I've been making my whole life as a child, as a fisherman. I grew up, you know, on Long Island crabbing with my mom. And then, you know, you take blue crabs and, you know, you braise them in tomato sauce. So it's like, it's timely. And like, can everybody get access to live blue crabs? And then, you know, fresh picked, shucked jumbo lump meat. I was like, it's expensive, but, you know, you can do it. It's just a lot of work. I'm like, do you want to stink your apartment up smelling like crap? Right. It's truly the best to be left for the restaurants. Yeah.

1:16:11I love that dish because I think anyone who's ever had, you know, crab and a great tomato and like a bucatini that's like perfectly cooked dente and you're chewing on it. And like there's a sweetness, there's a balance between the crab and the tomato, right? What's another pasta dish that you're making that you feel really proud about? The orchiette dish right now I think is pretty fun. We kind of have done a seafood play on like the traditional broccoli rabe sausage and orchiete. We're doing a seafood version of it. So we're making shrimp scampi sausage. And, you know, we're cooking that down in all the same way.

1:16:49So we make like you were eating shrimp scampi just turning into a sausage. And cauliflower rabe, you got garlic, white wine, shellfish stock. So it's pretty fun. People are like, wow, this is wild. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Got to check out the pastas there. So crudos and pastas. What else is on the menu that makes this a Herald restaurant? I think the other dish that is super popular is the dry-aged bronzino. Oh, yeah. Back to that. Yeah. So we're dry-aging the bronzino for three days. It's one filet. We pan-roast it. We serve it over some Sicilian-style green beans, just like I grew up eating like a kid.

1:17:27Just boosted green beans cooked down in anchovy garlic and seasoned breadcrumbs. and then from all the tuna that we're dry aging um we have you know we get the collars in which for those of you don't know is like the premier cut i mean toro is super sexy and like easy to eat but collars are where the flavor is at um so we take the collars and cure them and then make a tonado sauce out of it um super fatty and and and very unctuous um it's very delicious tonado is definitely having a moment tonado's having a moment yeah agreed you're seeing it a lot and And it's and as you should. Yeah, it's a great.

1:18:03And especially when you're doing a dry age, it's just like a deeper, richer sauce. It's not just the standard tonado that you use a canned product or even fresh product that isn't aged. So I'd love it. Harold, what's your what's your like measure for success of a restaurant? And I think is I mean, is it an obvious answer? Is it basically a P &L that looks like looks happy? I think, I mean, yeah, I think from a, you know, I think if you're talking financially for sure, and I think if you're talking creatively, it's like, there's so much more that goes into it. It's also like, you know, it takes, you know, it takes a village.

1:18:40So it's like, do you have a good, do you have a good crew? Are you constantly getting called in to work on your days off? Or can you like decompress and relax on your days off because everybody's showing up for work? you know the job force is very different now yeah what do you mean what do you mean well how long do we have give us a few uh you know it's just it's it's it's very it's very different um you know and i'm much i'm much more patient now and older um i enjoy the the aspect of of coaching and training i don't want to be michael jordan anymore i'm more interested in being phil jackson Love that.

1:19:17Great analogy. That's kind of where I'm at in my career. Like I don't, you know, I also have a family. So it's like, you know, I don't want to work 80 hours anymore. Yeah. I just don't, I don't want to do it. I want to manage my time. I want to spend time with my family. You know, I, so I think for me, the challenging part of seeing the next generation of cooks is they don't treat their opportunities like an apprenticeship. everybody wants to get paid as much money possible, but it's like very expensive in New York. So I'm sympathetic to that. I get that. But also like the immediate thought process of like, okay, like chef, I've made this dish perfect like three or four times.

1:20:00Like I'm ready to be a sous chef. Yeah. So it's just like, I just feel like everybody in general, especially in the restaurant industry, because you're constantly fighting for talent that people just get promoted in the kitchen very, very quickly. Yeah. I recognize how generationally there's been a huge change and maybe is it the fact that the younger cooks grew up with food more in their world? There's a little more media happening now. Or is it just like the way that people just need more money to live in New York? I think it's probably – I think it's a bit of both. I think it's a bit of both for sure.

1:20:38Yeah, I'm certainly sympathetic to the financial aspect of it. Yeah. Um, the, you know, the, I don't know. It's just like, you know, when you, there's not, there's very few curious cooks. I find much fewer curious cooks. Like I have very few cooks that actually ask questions, ask me questions about, say, I'm coming up with a new dish. Like want to know what the inspiration is. Want to know where it came from. They're not asking you that. No, they're not. They're not. Not a lot. There's some. Yeah. I mean, let's tell, let's, let's unpack that a bit. Like, is it, is it just more of a job for some of these?

1:21:12Correct. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And it's interesting because it's like, okay, this is a job. It's like kind of, you know, you work your ass off as a line cook. Yeah. I did it for a long time. And then I worked my ass off as a sous chef and, you know, and a working chef. So it's like, if this is just a job for you, like, it's interesting that this is what you've chosen because like, obviously, like, you have to have some passion for food. You got to be into it. I'm still, I, I, I think about it. this all the time. It's very interesting. Is it a matter of many of these cooks are coming from culinary school and they've invested in culinary school and they feel like they need to work in the restaurant to recoup their - Yes and no.

1:21:50I think yes and no. I think I probably have a mixture of, I have a mixture in my kitchen. Yeah. And some of them, even some of them that go to culinary school, it's just kind of like, I don't see it. I think you're probably right. Maybe their parents paid for their culinary school and they feel obligated to continue going through the motions. Yeah, exactly. Because I would imagine it's a very physical job. There's many ways to make a living in the city. There's a lot of jobs out there. Oh, yeah. I mean, you can go drive an Uber for more money. If that's what you want to do, you just could. Yeah.

1:22:20Where do you want to be in five years, Harold? Oh, where do I want to be in five years? Tell me. You'll be at that 50. I can't believe that. I'll be older than 50. I'm 47? Yeah, you'll be in the 50. I'll be in the 50. Shit. I don't know, dude. I don't know. I don't have that answer. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I'll be doing something with food. I know you will. I'll be doing something with food. There's no doubt. Yeah. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Oh, boy. Now I didn't know I was going to be put under the gun like this.

1:22:52I'm ready. Let's go. The best fruit. I mean, my favorite fruit is passion fruit, but I also love like fresh longan. Mm-hmm. Oh, good call. The worst vegetable. Oh, I hate okra. Yeah. Yeah. Just challenging to work with as a chef. No, just hate it. It's slimy. My wife loves it. She's from the South, so I have to cook, and my kids love it. So I cook her for them all the time, but I hate it. You can't handle it. Okra is like my least, yeah. The best dessert? Best dessert. I'm a sucker for like a good ice cream sundae, man. What makes it good? So let's unpack. I mean, I'm like a chocolate and peanut butter fiend.

1:23:32And so if it's like, you know, something that's like a Reese's based style dessert, I'm all in. My guy. With fresh peanut butter or whatever. It's like amazing. Dude, have you consulted for Reese's? I feel like they need to hire you. Yeah. No, but I'm spending more with them than they would be with me. That's funny. Yeah, I know. We're right. During the Halloween, Christmas season, those are the ones that are the best. Those peanut butter cups. Yeah. The novelty ones. your favorite New York City restaurant to visit well off the clock I love Maria yeah I haven't been back they've rebooted it a little bit I haven't been back either yet old Maria when Michael White was there was for me like it's very romantic very true it's a great great call your favorite cookbook of all time David Thompson Thai food still in print still selling copies a lot of chefs are still I mean, if someone, yeah, you know, there's some great, I mean, Andy's got some great books.

1:24:32Yeah. You know, but if you want a Bible that's like one, if it's one book, that's the book for me. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Shit. That's tough, man. Yeah. Sicily, Chiang Mai. Pick one. They're both great answers. I'll give you that. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Favorite sandwich, probably a Reuben. yeah what makes a good reuben um i mean just good ingredients like not i'm i'm not into like swish cheese so i usually put a different type of cheese on it which is kind of like sacrilege i know um i really like i like a provolone room but see that's amazing because i think provolone is so much more flavor better texture than a swiss but of course reuben yeah you know i like a provolone i mean just really good you know really good smoked meat smoked meat exactly or corn or corn beef harold this has been great thank you so much for joining us thanks man pleasure

1:25:31This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.