528: The New Taiwanese Pantry with Lisa Cheng Smith

24:18I know like through the newsletter or like on Instagram, I'll see you guys sharing recipes and you've made this mini cookbook before. Like how do you kind of approach sharing recipes as supporting like the larger work that you do? Yeah. So I actually think that Yunhai, even though we're sort of a distribution slash retail slash brand, retailer slash brand, I think writing is at the heart of everything that we do. So we're really trying to tell stories about food. And that definitely includes recipes. I think that if you're trying to cook Taiwanese food, my experience has been anyway, like, I want to make this dish.

24:55I want to make something Taiwanese. There's like, I kind of, I usually call it like the charming megafauna of Taiwanese cuisine, which is like the beef noodle soup, the guabao, the like chicken rice, like all these things that have like a really specific name and origin and like lore around it. But when it comes to like cooking every day, it's much harder to just be like, okay, what are the like techniques that I'm supposed to do? I just have these things around. What should I do with them? Like what would incorporate like a Taiwanese habit of mine when you think about putting foods together? And I think when we write recipes about the datong or we write any recipes at all, I'm trying to channel that idea where it's like, basically, it's like, what would my grandmother do?

25:39Probably not be like, I'm going to make perfect beef noodle soup from scratch today. It would be like, okay, what do we have? Like, what are the techniques? What are the tools? I'm just going to put it together. And tomorrow we're going to have some of this leftover to like seed the next dish and then seed the next dish. And that's sort of this like everyday practice of eating in a Taiwanese style. We're trying to promote that. I don't know if that's always obvious, but that's why we don't spend as much time writing about these like, you know, the top 40 hits that define Taiwanese cuisine. We spend a lot more time being like, this is how you could, you know, approach using a datil or it's okay if you don't have the right ingredients, but this is how you should make like a hot and sour dumpling soup, you know?

26:17Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of the goal. And I also love I love sharing like lesser known Taiwanese dishes that maybe just don't hit the American consciousness exactly in that like popular way, but are very important. Like bitter melon soup with chicken, for example, is something that I'm like, you never see this on recipe blogs. But it's to me, it like is a major part of like the Taiwanese food that I've experienced. Yeah. Yeah. What do you like about that bitter melon soup? There's like a type of food, like a description. It's like, make sure I pronounce this right. It's Qing Dan, which means like light and thin.

26:54And a lot of the Taiwanese food you have in the States is like sweet, savory. It's kind of extra. There's like a major way, a major like, I don't know if it's influenced by like the Buddhist style of eating. But like a major part of eating in Taiwan is this like light and thin, quote unquote, food. It's very like health focused. It's very like natural flavor focused. And so that soup I really like because it is that kind of understated food that just really relies on this like natural combination of ingredients and also is very like restorative and comforting for the body. So that's what I like about that soup.

27:34It sounds like a great seasonal transition soup for this moment in time also. I think so. Yeah, I think so for sure. Or anytime really. But yes. So we're talking a little bit about recipes and sharing that information. And I saw online that you guys are launching a little mini cooking show. Yeah, I'm super excited about the cooking show. It's actually called Cooking with Steam. And it is a show right now. It's just three episodes. It's totally self-funded, self-produced. We wanted to do everything very independently. You could think of it like a zine, I guess, except it's a show. And we worked with some friends.

28:08I mean, a lot went into it. So it's not really, it's definitely like long form produced content. and where each show kind of focuses on one recipe. And for right now, we're using the steam cooker, the da tong in each recipe because da tong helped us fund the show. I would love to extend it to be about like basically home cooking, like Taiwanese home cooking in general. So that's the idea. So I'm almost thinking of this as like sort of the pilot. Your proof of concept, yeah. Proof of concept and just like, you know, it has its own aesthetic. It's very voicey. I write this newsletter every month.

28:46I really enjoy writing. I think this is kind of like the show or video version of the newsletter. Yeah, I really like the newsletter. I feel like you have a nice mix of recipe and then kind of reflection. Like certainly when the Momofuku Chili Crisp saga was happening online, I feel like the newsletter that you wrote had a really interesting take on that. And I guess I'm curious in general, like looking at the current landscape of like Taiwanese food here in New York and like in the United States and just kind of like these larger movements and interests that people have with like Chili Crisp now compared to when you started.

29:22And it was right around right around when Fly by Jing was starting. Like how do you kind of see this moment of like Taiwanese cooking or like interest in Taiwanese food here in the U.S.? Oh, that's a really big question. There is so much there. I mean, I think that it has changed so much since I started. I started thinking about this in like 2015 or something. So really, it's been almost 10 years that I started conceiving of the brand all the way to now. And it's changed so much. So a lot of that had to do with, you know, COVID, obviously, and how people were shopping for food. But also just the, you know, geopolitical tension and like how that has like risen and fallen and risen again has really made people more aware of Taiwan, which is really great.

30:09Because in the past, I was clarifying like, oh, it's not Thailand. It's not Thai food. It's Taiwanese food. Or it's Taiwan, not Thailand. And actually, I almost never have to do that. Like at all. People who come into our store or shop with us online or discover us know what Taiwan is. I think the story we're trying to tell now is that it's not like a statistic or like, you know, a pawn on the world stage. It's like a place, a sovereign place with 20 million people and its own food ways and its own influences. And it's not Chinese food. It's Taiwanese food. And really like putting the stake in the ground to stand for that and define that.

30:49We've always been doing that. But now it's like the audience is more sophisticated. And so we're able to tell more sophisticated stories than at the very beginning where it was like, have you heard of Taiwanese food? And now it's more like, oh, actually, like Taiwanese black vinegar is Japanese tonkatsu sauce. Did you know that? People can like vibe with that because they're already aware enough to know what we're saying to them, basically. Oh, I didn't know that before. That's interesting. interesting. Yeah, yeah. People tend to buy Taiwanese brands of black vinegar and expect like a Chinese black vinegar, but they're totally different.

31:23So Taiwanese black vinegar comes from the lineage of Worcestershire sauce, not like, you know, Chinese black vinegar is black because it's just brewed from, you know, rice and sorghum or et cetera. And it makes it that color. But Taiwanese black vinegar is black because it's been steeped with different herbs and fruits and spices. And so Worcestershire sauce was very popular in Japan. And that kind of gave rise to tonkatsu sauce and Taiwanese black vinegar emerged during the Japanese colonial era and comes from that tradition. So that's what I mean about like, there's actually this really specific Taiwanese, you know, cuisine that comes from all of its previous colonizers, as well as its indigenous peoples and contemporary cultural influences.

32:07Yeah, I'm doing some research for this upcoming trip to Taiwan that I'm taking. And my girlfriend's family is in Tainan in the South. And I was reading about how it's really classic to have like sweeter food in Tainan in the South. And that's because when Japan was colonizing Taiwan, you can tell me if this is wrong, but when Japan was colonizing Taiwan, most of the sugar that was being produced was being produced in that region. So it's a very like typical regional thing to have kind of spicy sweet or like savory sweet together in that area. Yeah, that's definitely the Southern palate. I don't know as much about the history of sugar, but I'll definitely look into that.

32:40Yeah, check that out. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, I think that Taiwan also has these, like, there's so many microclimates. I always think of it, it's kind of like Italy in that way, where there's so many little, like, microclimates. There's so many different kinds of food that Taiwan can produce. It's also subtropical and tropical. So the north and south are, like, quite different because it straddles that line. Which is why there's so many, I think, like, amazing regional foods in Taiwan that just typically don't really make it out, quote unquote. So, like, eating in the mountains in Taiwan, it's high altitude.

33:09It's completely different than eating along the shorelines, which are very like seafood dominant and very like hot and humid places. So, yeah, there's just a lot to talk about. Yeah. When you go back to Taiwan these days, I imagine there's a lot of producers that you want to meet with and like meals that you want to have. Is there anything from your most recent trip that really kind of stuck out as being memorable for you? So when I've been going back to Taiwan, I've actually been focused a lot less on like eating street food, which is why I was initially kind of coming up with like, oh, wait, what has been really exciting to me?

33:41And more like visiting farms and actually eating with the farmers or in their canteens and restaurants that are in their small farming town. So one really amazing experience I had was I was with my friend Teng Wei, or his name is Rudy also, and he had taken me to see Lai Ching Song, who's like a Taiwanese rice farmer and has started this whole almost like rice farming. I don't know if utopia is the right word, but like very forward thinking community where everyone's growing rice. And his wife runs like sort of a, it's a restaurant, but it's almost like a community canteen. and she's actually not making like typical Taiwanese food.

34:22What she's been doing is taking the rice that they've been growing and experimenting with it. So she made this like amazing cake that was made completely with purple rice flour. It was like the fluffiest, most amazing, beautiful light cake, but it was just completely made of rice. And I think it was yeasted. And so I want to find out more about that, but that's what I've been really interested in is like how are people who are working in, contemporary Taiwan using ingredients and cooking and interpreting the culture around them to like, you know, make their own recipes and be kind of like chefs contributing to how food culture is moving forward and like being interested in what they're making and how they're presenting food.

35:09Prior to that, I was kind of like, oh, like I'm looking for like, you know, like the way I was with my mom as a child, like the most iconic version of this traditional thing. And now I'm like, wait, how are people on the farms wanting to eat right now? Or what are new restaurateurs doing? Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And it reminds me of when I had Sana Javari-Kadri, who does Diaspora Co., like the spice company on the show. They're working on the Diaspora Co. cookbook. And the way that they're making it is by going to all of their spice farmers and eating meals with them and learning how they use these like really amazing spices that they cultivate, like in their own kind of home cooking, which is also very regional, like across India.

35:47And I feel like it's a really cool approach to be like talking to the people who know this product the best about how they like to use it. Yeah, that's so true. I always remember visiting the soy sauce brewers and realizing they have this like really rich soy sauce called vat bottom soy sauce. And the way they use that is that they would just add it to water and that was stock. And they're vegetarian. So that was like their mother stock basically that they would use to like start soups or, you know, put into their dishes. And I always tell that story in the store because people don't really think of like making, you wouldn't make it with like a typical grocery store soy sauce.

36:21It's not rich enough, but with this one you can. So that's something I learned from them. That sounds really good. And for some reason my brain went to, oh, that would be so good, like drizzled over vanilla ice cream. Oh, yeah. Like a really thick and nuanced and delicious soy sauce. Yeah, we've made, I also learned from them how to make caramelized soy sauce, soy sauce caramel or caramelized soy sauce. Yeah, basically it's caramel, but using soy sauce as a base. And that's something that I saw them doing as well. Okay, maybe that's the dream ice cream topping that I'm thinking about. Yeah, yeah.

36:50Very malty. I know, I feel like also the savory sweet thing is my favorite way to eat. So that's where I'm kind of coming back to. I'm curious, just talking about all of the projects that you've done at Yunhai, like five years from now, where would you want to see the business? Well, yeah, there's so many things that I wanna do, but I always talk about having basically like a, What I really want is to have a Taiwanese kind of food emporium, sort of Eataly style. I'm not a huge fan of Eataly and Mario Batali, so I kind of hesitate to use that reference. But I think that's the closest thing formally to what I'm thinking, where it's like you have your market supported by food partners and people can come and experience like Taiwanese culture and storytelling in like a place based setting versus like online.

37:40So the shop that I have, the general store that we have in Brooklyn is very small and doesn't serve food yet. But I also view that as kind of like the pilot to this, you know, potential grander space that, you know, is an idea that I'm working on. Yeah, I really like that idea. And it's interesting because obviously they're not your businesses, but Yunhai is very close to Winsun and Winsun Bakery, which are two great Taiwanese restaurants and more of a bakery here in New York. So I would imagine that maybe you do have some customers who are doing like their own independent version of that, where they're going to like get a mochi donut at Winseng Bakery and then popping across the street.

38:19That's right. Yeah, it's very much like Little Taiwan or Taiwan Corner. And that's also part of the idea when we started is that, oh, we can, you know, provide this additional angle on Taiwanese culture, like in the same vicinity. And I think there's so much more room for other things like people love. they really want to get like mandarin language books from taiwan none are distributed here like you could have a little book section like when you go to what markets taiwan you see tofu counters that are you know whatever like 20 feet long and have or 50 feet long i don't even know but just huge like in the same way that you would see like pasta counter or something uh in italy it's just like there's so much variety and it's not being represented which i understand why because there's not a lot of people making that kind of tofu, but to me, there's room for that.

39:08And so like having enough space to represent all of those foods and also the knowledge to be able to teach people or tell people what to do with it. And then also having a place where people can immediately, you know, eat at a restaurant or a food stall and understand what it should taste like and where it's coming from. Yeah, I love that kind of full circle experience. And the tofu counter of reminds me of like my favorite one of my favorite grocery stores to go to in the city is Titan in Astoria which is a Greek supermarket oh yeah have you been to this yeah they have like a feta counter where they sell 20 kinds of feta by the pound or half pound and you can ask these older Greek gentlemen to slice it and give it to you and I had never seen like that much variety of feta in one place before so I feel like I would feel similarly if I encountered that tofu counter yeah and I think like the thing is like when you find something really specific like that If you want to, you can, I imagine you could ask at the counter to learn more about those specific varieties.

40:07Because if it's so specific, I think people will have, let me back up and say that like at the wet markets in Taiwan, for example, if you're like, I'm trying to make lurofen, what cut of pork should I get? They'll be like this one. If you go to like a big Asian grocery store, you cannot ask that question because it's more just about like, okay, what do you want? I'm going to weigh it out and give it to you. But when you get like more specialty and you have the knowledge to kind of guide people in like what kind of feta should you get or what kind of tofu would be good for this, I think that's really missing to help like, yeah, spread the knowledge of Taiwanese food.

40:43So I have to ask, where are your favorite places to eat Taiwanese food here in New York before we wrap up? Yeah, there's so many. I mean, obviously, you mentioned Winsan and Winsan Bakery. I love those places because it's like a new take on a traditional food. And I think it's very important for for to have that represented. I obviously love Ho Foods, 11886. I live in Elmhurst, Jackson Heights. So there's quite a few places out there that I like. So I think OK Ryan and OK Canaan are two like very Taiwanese places in Flushing. At OK Ryan, you can get Taiwanese breakfast, actually. And OK Canaan is more like an evening and dinner place, I'm pretty sure.

41:23And there's also Master Huang's out there in Queens. And there's a restaurant that's very near and dear to me called Mama Lee's in Williamsburg. It's not the flashiest Taiwanese place, but it's run by a couple. And I think the woman who owns it, I think she's Korean, but her husband's Taiwanese. But she's basically like making that, I had mentioned earlier in the episode, the Qingdan style of food. So it's very home style to the point where if you like over order, she'll be like, you need to remove some dishes from your order because you order too much. And she'll bring out like roasted sweet potatoes and soup and just like, you know, make sure you're well taken care of in this very like I'm at home with someone way.

42:08So they used to be in Bayside. Now they're in Williamsburg. I don't think a lot of people know about them. So I would really recommend Mama Lee's. I've heard about this place and I didn't realize that they had moved to Williamsburg. But now I'm going to have to make a point to go there and feel like I have like mom treatment. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Don't overorder. Yeah. Now I know. Finish it all or else. That's the scary thing, honestly, is like not clearing my plate. I would rather order less and clear everything than be a disappointment. Yeah, exactly. And you can that's definitely the vibe of this place where it's like, OK, I have to appreciate every bite and not waste anything.

42:43Okay, so to close, I want to play a little rapid fire game with you. So I'll just give you a question. I'm going to make you play some favorites and you can tell me the first answer that comes into your head. Okay. Your favorite item in the Yunhai shop right now? Is peanut oil. Okay, wait, what do you like to do with it? So we have cold pressed peanut oil. It's a great stir fry oil. I know seed oils are on the news right now for all kinds of reasons, but I love them. And it's just my go to everyday oil. It smells like a Reese's peanut butter cup. And yeah, most people, I think peanut oils, good peanut oil is underappreciated.

43:19So that's my sleeper hit. The best fried chicken I've ever had was made with peanut oil also because it has a good high smoke point. Yeah. Yeah. Ours is pressed from like a peanut that was like basically bred specifically to make peanut oil. So, yeah. Oh, I love that. OK. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now? I really like it's not a restaurant, but I was thinking about this and I really like Little Flower Cafe. It's like an Afghan cafe in Astoria and they have halal food there. So like the breakfast sandwiches are halal and everything is amazing. The environment's really nice. And I just think it's crowded because it's in Astoria.

43:56But outside of that, I'm not sure people know about it. It's definitely my go-to whenever I'm dropping off my son at school. A restaurant from Taiwan that you wish would open here in New York. There's a juice shop on Yongkang Street in Taiwan. I actually don't know its name, but it has like fresh pressed juices out in like buckets of ice all day long. and just the best cut fruit. You can just walk in and get, you know, whatever is in season. I don't know the name of it, but I wish that existed in New York. Yeah, we need that. Your go-to bodega snack? Is lambs, plantain chips. Have you ever had those?

44:31Yeah, I'm like a plantain chip connoisseur. I think those are the best ones. Yeah, so I always pick those up. I think they're good. There's like no additives and they're very flavorful. And I also, I think they're from Costa Rica, but the name to me feels Asian. So I'm always like, what's the story with lambs? Like, is this part of the, you know, there's a huge like Chinese and Taiwanese diaspora in Central America because of the Panama Canal and et cetera. So I'm always like, is this like somehow Asian? You got to dig into it. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it is, but there's that extra mystique that I'm like, I like them anyway.

45:03But yeah. Your go-to bagel order. I don't have a go-to bagel order, but I did cry tears once when my husband brought me a bagel with butter. So it is definitely not a bagel with butter, which I do not like. I was like, is this tears of joy or tears of sadness? No, no. They were tears of sadness. I'm embarrassed to admit, but I did actually cry because I did not want it. It's okay. Sometimes that's the breaking point. I think it's like it just has to have cream cheese. Yeah, that's the thing. Your favorite cookbook? My favorite cookbook? Well, on the topic of Taiwanese food, I think there's a cookbook called Taiwanese Homestout Cooking that was put together by the Northern California Taiwanese Women's Association and like the Taiwanese American Citizens League.

45:49It's this cult thing. It was self-published. It's a community cookbook. For a long time, it was like the only Taiwanese cookbook. So I love that one. I also am really enjoying vintage Lee Bailey cookbooks. I don't know if you've ever looked at those. It's 100 % like boomer food, but it's really great. And it's just like very simple food for dinner made with basic ingredients, I guess. But there's something about it. There's just like je ne sais quoi of, I don't know, somehow it feels like, how do I say this? Whenever you go to a restaurant, have you been to a restaurant that has like brass casters on the chairs?

46:26What's a caster? Caster is like a wheel. It's kind of like old steakhouse vibe from the 70s. So it's got that, those cookbooks have that vibe. And I'm just like into that right now. So I'm not cooking Asian food. I'm trying to figure out what Lee Bailey was cooking in like the 80s, basically. Oh, this is exactly what I'm going to look up after we're done chatting. I love this. Yeah, you should. It's awesome. I mean, it's like, you know, veal or, but it's like simple food too. But there's like lima beans, there's okra, there's sometimes there's like a lot of roasts. But yeah, I think he was a masterful entertainer and I'm just trying to like figure out how to do that.

46:57So I've been really into what he's been writing. Okay. What he wrote. The most underrated piece of kitchen equipment. well i'm supposed to say the datong steam cooker but i would also add that a really amazing fruit peeler not a vegetable peeler but a fruit peeler is something what's that what does a fruit peeler look like a fruit peeler has like a their it's got like a wider i'm gesturing to you but it has like a wider i don't know how to explain this up right now oh is it a y peeler is it the same yeah It's a Y peeler. Yeah. But then it's like wider. And the ones in Taiwan that I love are like curved almost.

47:35So they almost like follow the profile of a big, you can imagine peeling a big Asian pear. Yeah. With like sort of a curved Y peeler. That's what's missing. Could you use this like on a pomelo or something? Or is that too thick? Pomelo is too thick, but it's really for, you could use it on, yeah, basically I think of like, I love peeled Asian pears. And so it's just like. The perfect size. Or like a big daikon, for example. Yeah. But it's hard, like with the typical ones here, they're just like a little bit too small. They're not made for this like amazing giant fruit and vegetable. The hefty fruit.

48:06Yes. Okay. And finally, a fictional food scene like in a book or movie or TV show that you wish you could magically eat in real life. I really like the scene from Howl's Moving Castle. Have you seen that? Yeah. Where Calcifer makes bacon and eggs. Actually, Howl makes the bacon and eggs like on Calcifer. I love that. I think there's something about just this like beautiful, wafy wizard prince making like the most basic food all in one pot, like with his pet. That just feels like so tender. I want to eat that bacon and eggs. Yeah, I want that also. I feel like every so often someone mentions that one.

48:44And it has this like magical quality about the whole scene. I think that just makes you think the food would somehow be better than any other bacon and eggs you've had before. I love when he feeds the shells to the fire. Yeah. The fire crunches on it. Calcifer eats it. And I'm actually like, wait, I actually want the shelf. Just the shelf. That looks really good. It sounds good. Like he's like enjoying it or it. I don't know. But yeah. So I love that scene. Well, I love that. And I've loved chatting with you, Lisa. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me.

49:21so i'm in the studio with clayton gumber our producer good friend how the hell are you man good how's your how's your holiday yeah we're still doing holiday catch-ups aren't we yeah yes third week what's the larry david rule it's like six days i think we're way past it at this point we're way past it but i didn't i didn't say happy new year you didn't say happy new year No, but I appreciate you inquiring about my well-being. It's been great. Even though I've seen you for the past seven hours working on a big project. We're going to drop it at the end of the month. I can't wait. It sounded pretty good.

49:53So I wanted to have a conversation with you and have you on the show because you and I, we both love fiction. Yes. Talk about your relationship with fiction. Oh, wow. I mean, so I used to read a lot of nonfiction. I mean, I was always a reader since I was a little kid. But I fell into this sort of, I don't want to say a trap, but I fell into this sort of groove of just reading a lot of nonfiction for a really long time. And then in the past few years, I really had my love of fiction reinvigorated. And now I cannot really read nonfiction. I mean, unless it's something that is less dry than most.

50:37Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. And my connection to fiction versus nonfiction is that I've been writing a lot of nonfiction over the course of the past few years. And I have really dipped out of this habit of reading new and old novels. But you, Clayton, you inspired me to get back into fiction. And my friend Jamie Feldmar, too, shouts to her. We were on a trip, and she was telling me about all the books she was reading on the fiction side. And I was like, in July, I was like, man, I want to really pick up my fiction reading because I just love it. We published incredible fiction here at Penguin Random House at Crown Publishing Group where I work.

51:20So there's always new books around us, but there's, of course, older books. and I wanted to have you in to talk about some of our favorite books of 2024. Now, I know we're a little bit late on this. This is typically that end of December content fill, like year-end list. But you know what? Listen, books, there is no shelf life. You can read books from previous years. And, of course, on my list, I have plenty of books that are not from only 2024. I'm not I don't write about books and I'm not a critic. So I don't only need to be reading new books. And and how about yourself? Are you are you compelled to pick up the newest books or are you dipping into, you know, the New York Review of Books?

52:03You know, I mean, yeah, you sort of nailed me with the New York Review of Books because I have several on this on this list that we're going to talk about. It's so true. There's such a vast back catalog of books to read, whether they're classics or books that are being republished. There's so many, you know, talking about New York Review of Books. And then you have the McNally Jackson editions. You have Archipelago. You have all these publishers that are putting out books that have either fallen out of people's consciousness. You know, like books that were big at the time and then they just had not been published in 20 or 30 years.

52:44And so those are sort of hard to resist for me compared to contemporary fiction, which I read very little of. And not because there's a lack of quality, just because there's just such a catalog of older stuff that I just haven't been able to experience. And last question before we get to our top tens of the year. Where do you buy books? Do you go to the library? Do you have a Libby card? What's your kind of rhythm there? So I should go to the library more. Libraries are amazing. The New York public library system and in Manhattan, in Brooklyn, in Queens and all the boroughs. It's so amazing that we have those at our fingertips.

53:30The ability to go and get books and learn. It's unparalleled. Right. but there's something about having a narrow window to read a book that makes me itch. So I don't get a lot of library books, but I buy a lot of used books. There's so many great used bookstores in the city and that's really where I'll go. And some of them are so reasonably priced. I mean, for the price of a cup of coffee, like Unnameable Books in Brooklyn on Vanderbilt, Troubled Sleep. Those are two of my favorite places. They're really close to each other. And I'll just go there on a night and just drop like 40 bucks. But I end up having like four or five books.

54:16Yeah. No. Well, given that we're recording this in Penguin Random House, I'm just going to say that I'm a fan of the indie bookseller. Oh, absolutely. And buying books. And I know you buy books. And I love going to indies. I love Golden Hour books in Newburgh, New York. Books are magic because they're old friends. I love Rizzoli where we host a bunch of our readings. I pick up books there all the time. And, you know, I love our indie cookbook stores and we're not going to be talking about cookbooks here, but I love Now Serving and, you know, I love Kitchen Arts and Letters in New York. But there's something about buying a book too.

54:51You know, it's not always affordable for every reader, but it's such an affordable luxury just to drop 20 bucks, 30 bucks, and had this incredible book there. But enough about the book talk, about the buying of book talks. Let's get into the list. We're going to start at 10 and work through one. Now, have you ranked yours? See, I have. And if you don't, I ranked mine. I have top two. And then I would say three through 10 are probably, it's very malleable. I'm not saying six is better than seven. It's not really that kind of game. But these are 10 books. I read 22 books this year. That was my total.

55:33So this is like 10 out of 22. I'm sure you read many more. How many books do you think you read? I don't count. You know, I don't count how many. You're not a good reads guy? No, not really. I don't like to, you know, I like to just free flow. Yeah, right on, right on. You know, so I think I probably I probably read around 35 to 40 somewhere in there. Some of them very slim, too. So that's the other thing is they vary in size. Yeah. All right. Kick us off. What's what's your first what's your first book on your we'll say 10 highlights from last year. And again, like like with my list, these are not only 2024 releases.

56:16These are throughout the history of writing. Yeah. So why not start with 1940? I knew you'd come. I knew you'd come with something in the greatest generation. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, this is a book called The Stronghold by Dino Bazzotti. Now, I'm going to say I read a lot, but I cannot pronounce words for anything, especially people's names. So if I get names wrong, I apologize. I think people can find these books just from sort of Googling around how I pronounce. But The Stronghold is a book that was published in 1940. It's about a soldier who is stationed in a stronghold that's sort of away from the action.

57:02And it's about his life waiting for, you know, his chance to be heroic. And that's the book. Wow. And not to give a lot away, but not a lot happens. But that's sort of the point. And I don't want to give away the end, but I just thought this was a really great book about life and how you live it. Yeah. And whether you should be living in the past, the future or the present. I think we know the answer to that. But how difficult that really is. I like that pick. And I always take Rex from you and I'll be I'll be writing down these these names for my future reading. My number 10 is a new book. It's by Vincent Cunningham.

57:44And I've mentioned it on the show previously. It's called Great Expectations. I think when I did it as three things with Eliza, I had not finished it. And I think it really delivered. You know, Vincent is a critic of The New Yorker. He writes across culture, television, film. He writes about art and photography. He has a great podcast. Great Expectations is a book about an election that is very, I would say, it is very much a lightly veiled anonymous presidential candidate who resembles Barack Obama. And Vincent worked on the campaign in 2008. And it's a story that weaves his own, I would say, his own personal life and some of the trauma he's had in his life and some of the, I would say, the characters who jump into his life.

58:33The back story, though, is this campaign and him working in New Hampshire and him working with the candidate, as he's referred to, not by name, but of course, it really much resembles Barack Obama. And, you know, he's such a stylist. And while this book wasn't my top pick, it still makes me think that Vincent has an incredible fiction career. This was his debut and just such a stylist with the prose and what a talented writer. So that's my number 10. What's your number nine? So it feels like I should just go by year because I didn't rank. Sure. By quality. Let's do it. I like that idea. Number nine is a book called Three Summers by Margarita Liberaki, which was from 1946, originally published.

59:16And it's about three sisters that live on this Greek island. And it's three summers in their lives as they grow and they mature and they fall in love and they become independent and they try to figure out what the adults around them are doing. And this is all taking place during World War II, and they're sort of untouched by it, but not completely. And what I really loved about this book is you see it through the girl's perspective. So you see these adults acting in certain ways that are inscrutable to them. When you sort of know what's going on, maybe, but you're trying to figure it out along with them.

59:54And I thought that was such a great way of writing a book. The other thing is just reading different viewpoints, like me being a middle-aged male. I'm going to admit it, I'm middle-aged. You don't look it, man. Well, thank you so much. Too bad this is just audio. Yeah. But yeah, so I love reading books like that that just give you a view into somebody else's perspective. and you can hear the bombs in the background, you know, in the long distance of war. And I always think that's a context or subtext that makes inherent drama in literature. My number nine is called Reboot. It's by Justin Taylor.

1:00:39And Justin is a professor of literature and creative writing. And my wife, Tamara, read this and recommended it. And I'll just say, if you're a fan of the OC, if you're a fan of Reddit boards, If you're interested in the impacts of climate change, if you're interested in celebrity culture, this wild satire is for you. I think this book is essentially about the reboot of a popular network television show 20 years after it went off the air. And some of the actors have had a variety of success and how they come together to potentially make this reboot happen. And a wild ride. You know, Justin Taylor has written memoir and some fiction, and this is a brand new book from him.

1:01:28And really, if you're into, I mean, hyper online culture and getting into the vernacular and there's some incel characters that get you kind of tapped into that world a bit, this is the book for you. I really liked it. And this made the New York Times top 100 list and really worth the read. What's your next one? So my next one is a book called In Love by Alfred Hayes. It's from 1954. All right. I like this. We're getting into post-war. And we're post-war. Kind of into the beats. I know you like the beats a lot. So this is very post-war. This is very much about a gentleman who falls in love, and he's talking to somebody in a bar about this love story.

1:02:15sort of that, you know, time in the America where people were trying to figure out what they're doing. There was a lot of, you know, happiness on the surface, but inside, I think a lot of people were really trying to figure out what was going on and where to go next. And it's told from the perspective of this guy, and you don't really know how much of it is true or not, but it's, uh, I was really blown away. There's some sections in it that I have, you know, So high lit and things like that. It's just very much about how, you know, men perceive relationships. And I think it really, really nailed a certain type of gentleman that is still around today.

1:02:58Yeah. That 50s business Malou is, you know, famous by Mad Men. Yeah. Right. Are we talking that kind of? It's sort of like you don't really know what he does. You just know that it's, you know, he's a he's a veteran of the war. He's got a job. He thinks things are, everything is supposed to be his to take. And it's just an interesting, it's an interesting book to read because of that perspective. And they don't, and the author does not shy away from the sort of. grossness of that sort of thought process. Light reading, Clayton. Very light. Light reading. I always take influence from your selects.

1:03:40My next book is the second book, second novel from Rachel Kong. Rachel Kong is a friend of taste. You know, Rachel, a longtime editor and journalist, and when we launched Taste in 2017, Rachel was our first contributing editor and just a terrific editor. But I've read both of her novels, and her novel, Real Americans, really, really stuck with me. I read it earlier in the year, and it's a sweeping story I've talked about on the show. it's a generational story that spans the Pacific Northwest, New York, and China in the 50s. And there's some great magical realism happening in it. And I would say it was a cliffhanger.

1:04:28I haven't spoken with Rachel. I hope to have her on the show sometime because I just love talking to her and we can talk about some of her work. But I feel like there's a little bit of a cliffhanger there. And the way she taps into this relationship between a son and mother and both Chinese-American. I think that that really stuck with me. And of course, her sections in China during the Cultural Revolution too is really an original portrayal of a period in history that I think I've read less of in my life. And I want to read more because of Rachel's deep reporting and just the style of this section, which really I thought was the strongest of the book.

1:05:13So Rachel Kong's Real Americans is my next one. Nice. My next one is Speedboat by Renata Adler from 1976. You got an Adler in there. In the 70s. So have you read? No, but I almost picked up a Renata book, Renata Adler, on your recommendation or maybe it was a critical recommendation, but tell me more about it. So this one is an experimental novel, which it felt experimental at the time. But I think when you read this now, it feels very current other than some of the references to it being the 70s and things like that. It's about a young woman who is in media and just navigating the big city. And it's written in sort of just little excerpts.

1:06:02just they bounce around in time they bounce around in place and it's very much like the short form sort of storytelling that happens on the internet and it's it's so interesting to read this and feel like feels very natural for now I'd be very interested to have read this back in the day when it seemed more experimental but I love it because you can just sort of jump in and read little segments of it and it was sitting on my shelf for a long time and then somebody mentioned it to me it was like oh I have that book and so I dove into it I'm so glad I did yeah I feel speedboat is one of those books that you know media folks and folks who live in New York kind of cite as as like a seminal text yeah uh inspired you know I think your connection to online writing and blogging is is so profound and sound yeah I've read I've read about this book being so influential and similar way to like you know bright lights big city covered the 80s media finance this book covered you know the 60s in that way my next book is a book from 2020 from dolly alderden it's called ghosts now i had read dolly's new book called good material first and i i just loved it and it's not on my list i thought that was a really cool way to write from the toxic male point of view.

1:07:26And it's about a failing standup comedian and his self-pity, I'll say. And I just love Dolly. And really, the paperback for that book is coming out in the spring. And we publish her here at Penguin Random House. I'm hoping to have her on the show because I just can't wait to talk to her. But I went back and read her book, Ghosts, which had been recommended by many when I said I'd read good material. And wow, It's a story about ghosting and ghosts in life. And it's, you know, Dahlia is a sex columnist and writer in the UK and in London. And she really taps into modern British society and dating with her writing.

1:08:06And I think the protagonist in the story, Young Woman, has a lot of, I would say, the stresses and the drama that many young folks experience. And I don't want to give too much away because there are lots of twists and turns, a lot of romance. And I just think this is my favorite Dolly book so far. But I just can't wait to go back and read more of her work. So ghosting, I mean, that's something that has become so much more prevalent with online dating. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is negotiated within this story. And we find out, we get into the head of the ghoster, of the gentleman who has a proclivity to ghost.

1:08:49And this book from 2020 feels extremely modern. And of course, online dating is at the center of it. So well said, Clayton. What's your next one? So speaking of dating, this next one is a book called Mating by Norman Rush from 1991. So we skipped over the 80s. Yeah. But this was a book that was actually being read a lot a couple years ago. It sort of came back and was getting talked about a lot. And I didn't have much experience with Norman Rush. I found it at a used bookstore. I was like, oh, I've been hearing about this. And I loved it. It's from the point of view of a young woman who is in Africa doing some research and she meets a gentleman and they sort of become a couple.

1:09:40But it's really well done. This book is pretty long and pretty thick, but it's totally worth it. It's really funny, which books hardly ever for me are funny. It's hard to make me laugh reading a book. But there was a few times where I was like, oh, this is just really, really funny and clever. And so it's not on the list. But I also read Mortals, which was his next book after this, was also like a doorstopper. And some of the characters from this book show up. Oh, they have some carryover. Yeah. But that book also is just really, really great. So either one, I would say, is totally worth your time.

1:10:19Well, I know that book was mentioned in one of the big New York Times lists, you know, 100 of the century or 100 of the past 50 years. And I remember checking it out. And Norman Rush is somebody I've not read. But yeah, it's great to hear mating still holds up on the note of humor and LOLs from from literature. I fully agree. It feels strained. 99 % of the time, maybe 97 % of the time. You know, there's definitely a cheap cheap lapse in fiction. But I'll just say my number one book to tease ahead is one of the funniest books I've read. the past five years in terms of situational comedy and lols nice uh well my next book is a clayton gumber recommendation uh there's only one on the list but you have recommended uh several over the year and i've read a couple of them but you gifted me this book uh the physical book i read mostly on e and and apps and i just read better that way but i i tucked into this physical copy of hard rain falling from don carpenter from 1966 so of course it was from the 60s that you you recommended it and you know don carpenter a long story this this this author and you can probably fill in some too you know he he's kind of connected with the beats he wrote in the in the late 50s into the 70s and wrote a little for television a very sad story he died um broke and and alone um which is always um when it's a dead author and you hear about that ending you're like man that's too bad but but back to heart rain falling uh it's a story set in in the late 50s in Portland, mostly in Portland and into San Francisco.

1:11:57And it centers around the pool halls of Portland. And this character who is a tough guy and has had a tough upbringing, the prologue is simply just a mesmerizing prologue to a story that is written, I would say, very much in the Larry McMurtry style of really straightforward but beautiful prose. and just, you know, telling it as it is to live this hard life and all the obstacles you must overcome. But this character goes through a lot of, I would say, the ups and downs of young adulthood into adulthood. And it's such a time capsule for a time when pool halls were, where people were hustling at the pool halls and, you know, entertainment was very different back then.

1:12:48And they segue the story into San Francisco not to spoil and entertainment is slightly different there. And this is the beginning of the beats in San Francisco and he really taps into this culture, this counterculture that is swirling around this city that at the time in the 50s was a smaller city and is not the San Francisco we know today. So two great American cities, Portland and San Francisco, are at the heart of this book. And really it makes me rethink visiting those cities when you read a book from the 60s. What do you think about this book? We've shared this so we can kind of book club it here a little bit.

1:13:23Yeah. I mean, I love – obviously I love this book. I gave it to you for a reason because it's like one of my – you were reading fiction again. And I was like, this was one of those books that I just devoured. and then when you're done with it or near done with it, you're sort of grieving it already. And it's another book was on my shelf for years and did not pick it up. It was just sitting there with some quiet power and then somebody mentioned it. Like I read about it and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna, I have that book. I'm gonna give it a shot. I have so many books that sometimes I forget that I have books.

1:14:00So when I go through them, it's almost like shopping again because I'm like, oh, wait, I do have that. Oh, great. And so I read it and it just blew me away. There's just something about this book and the milieu is just so powerful. I would recommend it to anybody, really. Yeah, what a great title too, Hard Rain Falling. What's your next one? Okay, so my next one is still in the 90s. It's a book called The End of Vandalism by Tom Drury. It's from 1994. And this is a book that sort of came and went, But it is a book about a fictional small town in the Midwest of America and just about the people who live there.

1:14:44There's a bit of a love triangle between the sheriff and a criminal and the criminal's wife. But it's really just about how these people spend their days. And it's fun just to be in that town. I think there's sort of quiet humor to it. I hate the term quirky because quirky is not my bag, but there is a sort of quiet quirkiness about them in the same way that I think all good towns have. Just the local weirdness. And, you know, even in New York City, there's local weirdness. But when you go to small towns, the local weirdness almost shoots out a little bit stronger because the rest of it's sort of flat and gray.

1:15:30And, you know, and so that's what this book is about. And for people who are really into plot driven books, this is not the book for you. But if you want to just hang out in this small town and just, you know, enjoy yourself a little bit, I think this is a great book. Yeah. I mean, for fans of Fargo, perhaps. Yeah. I mean, it's less violent, obviously. But but there's those elements of, you know, not I don't even want to say they're pointing out people's, you know, weirdness. It's just sort of ingrained in it. Richard Russo is so great at that. I think Richard Russo has written several books set in college towns in the Midwest and the Rust Belt.

1:16:13And just coming from a smaller town in the Midwest, I think there is a lot of inherent irony and weirdness happening there. And I guess when you're in a city, you're right. We're always surrounded by weirdos. So when you have this observation in a small town, it hits a little differently. Yeah. Well, my next book is my only nonfiction selection for my top 10. I read a lot of nonfiction this year and a couple that come up that didn't quite make the list but were great. They Went Another Way, which was a memoir I talked about on the show earlier from Bruce Ayer Kaplan. Hope to have him on the show.

1:16:47I love the Eindigarten memoir. I thought it was – my mom's reading it now and just loves it. And this book is just – what an unexpected story of Eindigarten and her business acumen. That was my biggest takeaway. I read the Tom Colicchio memoir, which I loved and had a great conversation with him on the show. I read the Michael McDonald memoir, which I was a huge fan of that Yacht Rock documentary, and I had to learn more about Michael McDonald. Wow. He survived on a diet of Reese's peanut butter cups and Dr. Pepper and cocaine for about 25 years. So that man lived a life. but the best nonfiction I read this year was Griffin Dunn's memoir you know he it's called the Friday Afternoon Club and Griffin Dunn famous actor famous family tragedy in the Dunn family and really we kind of go through his life linear and it's a remarkable story his relationship with his father Dominic Dunn and his sister Dominic Dunn was murdered and getting into that episode in his life but really just an incredible voice and great prose and just thought it was such a terrific memoir that has a lot of New York, a lot of Hollywood, and a lot of empathy.

1:18:06So I loved it. Yeah, I really want to read that. That's a book that you had mentioned before and it's definitely on my list, even though, like I said, I don't read a lot of nonfiction, but a book like that written by him, I just feel like would be akin to a great novel. Yeah, absolutely. So my next one, it's two books, but it's by the same author. And so it's very hard to separate these. And this is from this century. So this is actually from the last few years. So there was internet possibly in the book. Oh, absolutely. Like maybe a mobile phone. So these are translated. So I think the first one came out last year and this one came, well, I guess came out in 2023 and then the next one came out in 2024, I believe.

1:18:54but I'm talking about a book called Playboy and Love Me Tender by Constance Debris. I'm probably saying the name incorrectly, but they're very slim volumes, but it's about a woman who's a lawyer who leaves her husband and son to come out and go from a life of being very rich in France to just choosing to not have that life and be a little bit less rich. But it was very controversial. These books are very controversial in France where they were published. And the protagonist is, you know, basically the author. And it's one of those things where there's a total lack of pulling punches, which I think is so refreshing.

1:19:54So many times people write and they write as themselves and then they try to sweeten it. And Constance does not do that for good or bad. So you could read this book and feel like, oh my gosh, this is a person that I would not want to be around or I don't agree with their decisions. but there's something undeniably compelling about it. And so I don't want to give much away because there is, you know, you can look them up and make your own decision here. But I just like rip through these books. You know, autofiction these days in the modern vocabulary and vernacular hits harder than it ever has before.

1:20:39And it's quite popular, of course. Yeah. I think there's something about autofiction that has, you can do that as the writer, as the author. You can go there when there's that kind of idea that there may be some real talk here, some bio here. So I will read those. I love two slim volumes. Yep. Well, my next two actually in the same vein, and this is unplanned, but are by the same author, and I read them back to back. And I actually read three books from Colson Whitehead this year. And Colson Whitehead is by far my favorite living author. I read The Harlem Shuffle and I have not read the sequel, which is out as well.

1:21:18And those are, you know, terrific crime books. But the books I read are probably familiar to many listeners. 2016's Underground Railroad and 2019 The Nickel Boys. And, you know, both have been adapted for screen. The Underground Railroad was a terrific Amazon series, very underwatched in the pandemic. I think it's getting a little love these days. And, of course, The Nickel Boys is a film that I've not seen. You know, it's in very limited release, and I know it is getting a lot of possible Oscar attention by its really unique point of view. But this is not a show about film or TV. It's actually a show about food, but we're talking about books.

1:21:56But, you know, whatever. We're deep cuts here. But, you know, the Underground Railroad won National Book Award. I think appeals to her. I don't quite have those accolades in front of me, but really one of the most daring and I would say gripping and brutally real portrayals of slavery in recent times. And I just think it's an incredible story that has a very light magical realism touch, but still dives into very real history in American culture. And it's not for everyone. It's very graphic, so that's trigger warning there. But The Underground Railroad by Colson Whitehead. And, of course, The Nickel Boys is a story that is based loosely on a real account.

1:22:42I think they set it in Georgia, but it was a school in Florida. It's based on it. It's a tragic story of abuse within a boy's school and the way that Colson Whitehead is able to take elements of history and weave this incredible story of these characters. And I really I just highly recommend it. I can't can't really articulate this book that well because it's so powerful. But I hope if you do catch the movie, you can go back and read the book or vice versa. So two from Colson Whitehead, greatest living author in my opinion. I love that. Yeah. Just declaring it. That's great. If you're going to read one of those, which one would you start with?

1:23:26I just think The Nickel Boys probably is a little higher on my list because the film is there. And really, it's a little bit more for everyone. I really do think The Underground Railroad is a must read. It's American history and it's important, but it is extremely graphic. So that's that. OK. Yeah. So then my next is and I didn't do this on purpose. To outdo you. It's three books by the same office. Oh, my goodness. Now, they're also slim volumes. And I've talked about these books and specifically one of those books previously on a three things when I was able to step in for Eliza. This is Eva Balthazar, who I'd mentioned before in this previous time.

1:24:19And I read all three of their books, Permafrost, Boulder, Mammoth. They work as a triptych. and again just feels like there might be some autobiography possibly I I don't want to say for sure because some of the things that are done in these books also are things that people would probably take umbrage to but again it's the same thing as the my last books that I was talking about just really unflinching in a way that I really like because I think they're really amazing and not for the weak of heart. Ava Balthazar. Yeah. And it's funny because I was going to buy, I like to buy books for people, obviously, as you know, because I've gifted you books and I will again in the future.

1:25:06But I was going to buy Mammoth for somebody and was walking around the bookstore with them. And then I remembered a scene in it and I was like, okay, you don't want to share this. I was like, you won't like this. Just trust me. And so, yeah, so that's the kind of book this is. So it's not for everybody, but definitely they're for me. I love it. Well, I have two more on my list left. Nana Kwame Abjai Brenya. Sorry, I mispronounced the name. Chang 'e All-Stars was an absolute smash hit in 2023. It won many awards. And I finally had a chance to read this essential book that tackles mass incarceration through the lens of a character or a series of characters who are incarcerated in a future dystopic world who have been given the opportunity to commute their sentences by participating in the games, in a very Hunger Games-like death duel type of battle, Coliseum-style fighting.

1:26:13And it's an incredible story plot-wise. I remember reading the last 10 pages at 2.45 in the morning. I think we've all been there. And just like sitting in my home for 10 minutes in the silence and just processing it. It is such a compelling story that tackles these big topics. And in a very real way, there's footnotes throughout that actually address statistics about our prison industrial system and some of the real problems with our society. But really at the heart of this is a story that's bloody and violent and tender. and it comments on a media culture. You know, the death matches are filmed and sold pay-per-view.

1:27:05And so there's a comment on the society that loves this type of death match. And, you know, the allegories run wild in this book and really changing all stars. If you haven't picked it up, it really will change the way you think about our American prison system. I'll just say that. My second to last. So this book is actually from 2024. Here we are. We're into modern times. Yeah. So it's called The Third Realm by Carl Uwe Nosgaard. Oh, boy. I'm butchering the name, obviously. One of my favorite authors. I've read everything he's written. and this is his fiction right now trilogy but he's already released uh written and released two more books in the series and norway and i am so excited that they exist and i want them to be uh translated as quickly as possible because it's about a world where a star a huge star just appears out of nowhere in the sky.

1:28:13And it's all these interlocking stories about these characters and how they are dealing with it. And so I really love the first two books. This is the third book. It's a little bit more of a horror book than the second one was. And the first one had some horror elements to it, but this feels like it's really turning it up a notch. And he just has a writing style that he got known for autofiction. And I'm one of those guys that was like, yeah, I want to read about you smoking a cigarette, having coffee and making breakfast all day long. I could read it for years and years and years. And he takes that element, but then also adds a lot of plot.

1:28:55And I'm really enjoying it. So this is the third book. I wouldn't say start with this one. I would say start with the first one if you want to but this was definitely one of my favorite books of the year I look forward to these books every time they come out yeah I haven't dipped into Carl yet I feel like there'll be a time in my life when when Carl and I can can sit down together and get to know one another or me get to know him well I'll what I'll probably do is I'll just I'll give you the first book this is what I do for people is I'll just give you the first of the my struggle and you don't have to read it if you don't want, you know, my rules with books, don't have to read it.

1:29:35It's yours. You can throw it in the trash if you want. You don't have to talk to me about it. Uh, but I think it's one of those books that if you like that one, you will read more or you might just say, this is enough, but I think it's worth at least trying to read the first one. Cause there's some really amazing stuff in there that has stuck with me even now. I love it. I'm going to take on this struggle for myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My number one book of 2024, by a long shot, is by Taffy Brodesser-Ackner, Long Island Compromise. I read this in a couple days on the recommendation of many, and I just love Taffy so much.

1:30:19I was a huge fan of Fleshman's in Trouble, her debut, and this is the follow-up. And it's such a wallop. Well, first, I've said this on three things, but, you know, Taffy is a reporter and journalist in her day job and her career. And it really carries over in the prose and the writing and the details she brings to these characters and these scenes and the kind of the rabbit holes that are deep, deep pleasure as a reader to fall into, you know, intertwined with an incredible family story that, you know, starts with a crime and ends with a lot of reconciliation and reconciliation of past trauma and family struggles.

1:31:03and Taffy is one of our greatest living journalists, I would say. I mean, her New York Times Magazine profiles are of legend. I believe it's being adapted for the screen and I think I've had several friends read and we've done our casting, who's who and predictions, but I highly recommend Long Island Compromise and I think I've emailed her people like four times to come on the show and paperbacks out this spring. So we're hoping to line it up with paperback, have her in the studio. Talk about her work. Talk about this novel. Number one is Long Uncompromise. Matt, this is on my list too. Wow, we're getting to the top of your list.

1:31:45Yeah, so it's next to the third realm. It's the most modern book on my list. This was a recommendation by you. You had said you read it and you really liked it. This actually was a book that you gave me as well. and yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it I feel like I didn't read it very fast because it was one of those things it's a hardcover so I was reading it and then I went on a trip and I just didn't have space for a hardcover yeah and so I I left it behind and then when I got back I re-picked it up but I also think with a book like this there is movement in time so when you set a book like this down, there is an opportunity to just sort of live your life while they're living their life and then pick it back up.

1:32:37I love that. Yeah. That happened to me with the Goldfinch. I did that with Donna Tartt's Goldfinch. Yeah. And because there's a big gap in time and I stopped and then I started, it didn't feel like I missed any time whatsoever. That's wonderful. So that's how I experienced this book. And I, yeah, really funny, just really, you know, people use readable as a way to complement in a book and it might sound like faint praise, but that's the best praise you can give a book is that it's so thoroughly readable that you can keep hold of that information even if you have a gap and just live those lives with those characters.

1:33:15And yeah, this was a really great book and I'm so glad that you recommended it. Can we just talk about the hotel scene just very briefly? Yeah. Like without spoiling. Yeah. I mean, it definitely sets up a character in a way that is very unique and very bold to set up a character in that way and then have you follow them because not many people can do that the way she did. And also Mandy Patinkin makes a cameo. Yes. Possibly as God. We're not going to book club this. We're not going to do spoilers, but possibly as God. So when you were doing your fantasy casting, who did you have playing Mandy Patinkin?

1:33:55I know, right? That's the question. I mean, my feeling, and I'll ask Taffy this point blank, is that do you write this book with Mandy Patinkin's guarantee that he's going to play Mandy Patinkin? Yeah, right. In the adaptation. Or is it just, I hope, because, you know, I'm just going to put it out there. Because that's the thing, is like, then you might have to change it to a different celebrity in the adaptation if Mandy Patinkin turns it down. I mean, he's got kind of a lot of leverage, you know, if they're really going to do this book or this movie based on the book. I would hope that he is compelled to, you know, this role is a minor role.

1:34:39We've got a couple of days of shooting. This is nothing too crazy with the schedule. But pivotal and important. It is very important. Yeah. So that is interesting. Yeah, I feel this book, when the TV series or the limited series or the movie comes out, I hope it gets even more readers because it's so terrific. Yeah. Well, Clayton, I really enjoyed this conversation and I've enjoyed bringing fiction and some nonfiction to our three things with Eliza and with yourself. And we're going to continue this in 2025. Again, we produced this show out of Penguin Random House and we have so many great authors in our hallways, walk in the hallways.

1:35:20And I just can't let it go for a show that we deal with food topics and have conversations about food. But fiction is also very much at the heart of what we do here. Absolutely. Thanks a lot, man. Thank you.

1:35:38This is Taste is hosted by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things happening.