530: London Restaurant Reviewing and What the Royals Really Ate with Tom Parker Bowles

25:58So this is incredible. In the Victorian kitchen, there were proper curries being made. Now, the ones that the Queen liked, Queen Victoria, and also her grandson, George V, loved them. And of course, Queen Elizabeth loved them. There's not much chili in them. They're very highly spiced, but they're very much of what I would call Anglo-Indian curries. Spiced meaning flavor, spiced not meaning heat. Not meaning heat. So there was no chili at all. In really any of them, probably a bit of curry powder. But that reflects how when, for example, the partition of India, and we had huge amounts of immigration coming in from India and Pakistan and Bangladesh.

26:37Now, the immigrants are all open restaurants. Realize our taste, the British taste wasn't like the Indian taste. We quite like things bland and boring and British. So they created curries like a madras, a vindaloo. Now, vindaloo is nothing like the Goan vindaloo, vindaloo, you know, which is wine and garlic and maybe pork and very, very good dish. But no, vindaloo is for the British. You know, you're going to have 10 pines. Then you pile into the curry house and have this, you know, basically gravy with different levels of chili. But we love curries. You know, there's a big difference in the UK between curry houses, which is a certain sort of food.

27:17I love them. And you get all your Baltis, which is, you know, a great Birmingham dish. And then you have now this great resurgence, thank the Lord, of regional Indian food. Yeah, regional. So, you know, Gymkhana to, I mean, to Shum, actually. I was talking to someone who loved to Shum, this mini chain. Yeah. But we do have very good. Anyway, so the royal family did eat curries. But the late Queen Elizabeth, of course, didn't want chili in it, didn't like chili. But it was, and liked all the accoutrements, you know, the chopped, the writer and the chopped cucumber and the poppadoms. Yeah. And the fried onions.

27:49And I found this out. I didn't know, as I said, didn't know the late queen at all, apart from being, you know, we all loved her. From Mark Flanagan, who's, so you go back to the access. Yes, I did manage to speak to Mark Flanagan, who has spoken to a lot of people about, you know, historians and the rest. But he obviously was royal chef, so cooked a lot for the queen. And her tastes were very simple. You know, I think after a long day of meeting a million people and the whole world, I think. And she really enjoyed meeting with people. I think so. It's obvious. Yes, I think you can see. I mean, I'm certainly no expert on this, but she wanted something simple, as you probably would.

28:21If, you know, everyone was trying to impress, you know, so just like the whole world must have smelt like fresh paint to the late queen, because everything was painted before you came and the rich food, you know. So to come back and I think you'd want something like scrambled eggs on toast or a fish cake. And those are the recipes I put in representing the late queen because she was, you know, food was important to her. But she saw food, and this was according to Mark Flanagan, as something that you can really show your love and respect for somebody. So, for example, the state banquets, the two things have left over from the days of Victoria.

28:55There's tea, which we'll talk about later, and the state banquet. Now, the state banquet used to be 12 courses, and now it's three, but it still has the pageantry, the pomp. It has the glittering gold and the glasses and the flowers and the footmen in red jackets. And, you know, it doesn't matter if you're Barack Obama or the Emperor of Japan, it's still quite an impressive thing. Now, you don't talk about politics at this, but it's soft and souffle diplomacy. It's about looking after your honored guests. And now the royal family don't choose who comes. So that's the government. So there's been some interesting characters.

29:28Well, that dance between government and the crown is as old as time. It is. It's as old as a democracy. And in the days, of course, of Victoria, she had absolute power. Yeah, of course. It's very... So it's actually not the old time. It's old as democracy. No, no. And that was the thing. And so these banquets, the Queen used to remember... So Mark Flanagan, Royal Chef, would send up four menus for her. And the first thing is it would always be in French because state banquets are always in French. Because still we hold on to this idea that French food is the grandest and the most intricate and the rest of it.

29:59And she was so fluent in French. You've got a mistake with an accent or anything like that. They'd be ring like a teacher and sent back. And the second thing, she had this incredible memory, apparently, the late queen, for remembering. So she would go, she would look and think, wow, we're having dinner for the, I'm not going to do her voice. You can do Victoria. Let's do it. But this was the late Queen Elizabeth. Oh, this is Elizabeth. And she would look at menus and think, now we've got the Emperor of Japan coming in. I remember 20 years ago, he loved this dish. So she had this incredible recall.

30:30And this is about our understanding of the power of the state banquet. And, you know, the emperor, the prime minister, the president, whoever was at the banquet would go, man, we had this last time. Yes, I thought you might like it. It was that attention to detail that was so important. And also talking to Mark about the dietary needs. You know, of course, kings and princes and prime ministers and presidents, they're all surrounded by their entourage and all have their own tastes. So, of course, Mark would be speaking to his equivalent with whoever it was when they're coming. What does he or she like?

31:01Does she not like? You know, so everything was totally tailored in terms of food. And it's absolute hospitality to the core. And I think a lot of American hospitality in some ways is informed by the royal family. I think that we obviously pick up some traditions here in the States. Well, then there's a brilliant book I read by a guy. I'm sure you've read it. And it's about the food of the president. I got Alex Prudhomme. Yeah, he's been on the show twice, actually. He's a friend of the show. I read that and I absolutely loved it. I've quoted him in the book. And actually, the FDR does come. But I love the fact of, you know, different presidents, what they ate, how they ate.

31:34And that for me, you go back to Brillat Saverin, you know, show me what you eat and I'll show you what you are. That does because you can get into the soul of some, especially a president, you know, looking at Nixon's very depressing sort of, you know, food. And it was and the sort of, you know, the Kennedy bringing the glamour to those. And it was just I found that one of the most fascinating books I read last year, really. and it really informed. And you probably saw some things familiar, especially some of our earlier presidents. Absolutely, yeah. And the way that the crown, the celebration, I think our state dinners are obviously informed by royal banquets, right?

32:15The style of the service. Absolutely. But reading the menus, and again, it's works of art sometimes about how it's entertained. And of course, in America, you've got all the movie stars. I mean, we've got a few as well, not so much movie stars, but you can really... Hey, man, I love that show, Industry. Oh, I love it, too. Greatest show on television. So coming from your home. That is very good. That is a good show. That is definitely one that is pretty hardcore, but it is brilliant. Great electro soundtrack as well. Absolutely. The needle drops on that show, I mean, bringing in Depeche. I mean, Duran Duran.

32:45Yeah, I know. I actually went to Depeche concert. When was it? Last, a few months ago. Tom, how do you, like, what's the pregame before Depeche for you? Are you drinking some champagne or are you doing it? Depeche? No, we went, it was in O2, which is a long way. I live in West London. I was hoping they were going to do a lot of Kraut, the 80s stuff. I love that. Great era of Depeche, Tom. Great era. I love Depeche. And we went and we probably had a few drinks and danced a bit and sung a bit. But yes, it was fascinating. But yeah, sorry, Depeche. We could talk about Depeche all day and industry.

33:20And industry. But yes, it was. But you look at, I mean, for example, the American dream for me made real are these two great German immigrants. the hamburger and the hot dog and then they come they come with very little they come as a you know hamburger state and a verse and they conquer not just america but they come back and conquer the world i also you know the the idea of red sauce italian cooking of this thing that obviously when all the immigrants came came into america you know in in the 20s and third well 10 1910s 20s there was you know they were coming from incredibly poor parts of the south of the meat was such a luxury um and then of course they come to the land of abundance and then you get this wonderful cuisine and i i haven't been to a state yet where i haven't found lots of things i you know i mean calvin trillin is my my god really oh yeah um and the tummy trilogy for me was was i find between aj liebling and trillin and mfk fisher um and joseph mitchell when he's writing up oh cool you know the new yorker you know the new yorker sort of style they informed when they were when I first started loving food, which I mean, I've loved food forever.

34:23First started getting into. But you love the word. You like you're you're very literate. You're very read. And you like the writing of food as much as the actual food, which is rare. I think some food writers just like the food. They don't actually like the history of food writing. Oh, you know, everything is context, you know, and I said before, and you know this, food is merely a prism through which we see history, which we see economics, we see sociology, We see food is health, wealth, and happiness. But conversely, it's also, it pushes people apart. I remember once years ago, I was in Beirut.

34:55I'm very sad what's happened there. I mean, beyond San, sorry. And there was a wonderful restaurant and it was called Tao or something. I'll find out what it was. Anyway, what was happening was that they were bringing not only all the regions, the ladies who cooked all the regions of the Lebanon and all around there in Syria coming in, but also from Jerusalem. And it was bringing people together, you know, breaking bread together. And, you know, you feel that if only there was more sitting down, it doesn't matter if your religion or your views and sitting down breaking bread. And that's the most fundamental thing, the uniting power of the table.

35:31You've mentioned the regionality of Indian cuisine. You've mentioned the regionality of Lebanese cuisine. And I have to ask you about the regionality of English cuisine. My grandfather was born in Liverpool, and I remember my mom telling me about some of the hard-boiled meals that he'd had in the States. Scouts. Nope, scouts. Absolutely. And I've never really spent time in Liverpool, and certainly I'd like to go to Sunderland. I could name a lot of cities. Tom like briefly We could do a whole episode about this But how does England divide itself With food? Well there is I suppose The basic answer is that red or Brown is the first thing That is what you put on Your bacon sandwich, your bacon roll, your bacon Butty, is it red Which is tomato ketchup Or is it brown which is HP sauce which is You know it's a sort of fruity Sort of Indian tinged it's, you know, named after the Houses of Parliament.

36:29Now, battles will rage over which one, and sometimes, you know, some people in the north or have red and some in the south. That's a basic. I think English regional food, there's some great books about English regional food. We lost our way. You know, English food has this, British food, has this reputation across the world, as grim and greasy and boring and overcooked and just without, and still people, ha, ha, ha. But, you know, great British food is about ingredients first. So, for example, you know, the perfect, you know, a grouse or something, you know, a game bird in autumn or asparagus in spring.

37:01But not just that, really good steaks, really good roasts, really good puddings. People like Fergus Henderson at St. John have done a huge amount for, he doesn't call it modern British cooking. He would say, I'm more influenced by Masala Hazan than I am by Jane Grigson, for example, because his plating is very Italian. But he's all about nose to tail, which any chef in every culture, of course, eats every part of the beast. If you go to St. John on Brick Lane for an afternoon lunch. And also, yeah, and you don't move. I mean, you eat, you have bone marrow with your bone marrow salad. It's wonderful.

37:35And it sort of really put life back into traditional British food. But there's a place called Wilton's that's very grand. You have to wear a suit. It's one of my favorite restaurants. Oyster season, you go and have two dozen native oysters, which are just so elegant. followed by a jellied consomme, which I love. And then maybe a mixed grill or kidneys or a really good steak from a well-bought-up cow. And they have a roast trolley every day. So one day it's beef, the next day it's pork, we're crackling. So that, when I have friends, mainly American actually, who come over, I say, and they're both, well, St.

38:09John isn't as expensive as Wilton's, but these are two very different facets of British food. Then fish and chips, of course. Now, fish and chips, everyone will argue who's the best fish and chips. there's regional differences, for example, and I get this wrong, and every Yorkshire and Lancashire person will get furious, but I think it's Lancashire is haddock. I'm just waiting to hear the outrage when I get it. We're going to get to London. Yeah, and Yorkshire is cod. And, you know, in Yorkshire traditionally, chips are fried in beef tripping, which is the best. But really, you don't get good fish and chips in London.

38:40You have to go to the coast or up to Scotland where they do it very well. Wales do it very well. But, you know, it's something to eat with your legs dangling as you're sitting looking at the rain. So what is a good fish and chips plate, a quality plate look like to you? First of all, you wouldn't, you know, you would have it in paper. So you'd get this warm bundle and it smells of vinegar. The chips, which are fat chips, they're not triple fried. They're not fries. They're chips. So there's crisp bits and there's soggy bits. They're covered in salt and vinegar, obscene amounts of salt and vinegar.

39:11But the fish and it should be, the batter should be, all should be clean. and the fish should steam inside the batter. Yes. So there's no greasiness. And when you eat it with your fingers, really, and you sort of pull it apart, again, some people leave the skin on, some leave it off, but it should be absolute sort of fat, pearlescent flakes, very, very fresh fish, encased in this burnished, beautiful batter. And that is something transcendentally good. Oh, you're right. We covet a great, that first bite, when you know you have the steam down and it's actually properly cooked, properly seasoned within that the fish is steamed and seasoned.

39:48The batter is crispy. And, you know, we as Americans like to throw some tartar sauce on our fish and chips. What do you think about that? I don't mind that at all. I'm fairly sort of open-minded. I like it. There's restaurant fish and chips. So if you go to the Scots or you go to the Ivy or whatever, then you'll have – it's different somehow. It's got to be eaten, you know, because when we were kids, that's one thing we did have with my mother. We got to the chippy on Friday, you know, And you'd sit and you'd that hot package on your, and you'd sneak a few chips as you were doing it. And the other thing the British, very regional is, is snacks.

40:21So I think we're brilliant at corn-based snack. Not so much chips. We've got really nice chips. I mean, talking about American chips rather than that. But we have Monster Munch. We have scampi fries. We have frazzles. We have knickknacks. We have space invaders. We are, our corn-based snack market is, I think, one of the best in the world. And I would defend that. You call them crisps. We call them crisps, even if they're potato-based, corn-based crisps. And our chocolate and candy, I would fight all over the world. I think that Maltesers are possibly the greatest sweets on earth. Ah, I love the fighting words.

40:54Yeah, I mean, I'm more of a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup guy. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, Cadbury throws a pretty strong right, I must say. See, Hershey's, I can't be dealing with Hershey's chocolate. I don't know what it is. I'm just not American, perhaps. But it's always Cadbury's over Hershey's. No, I think, no, of course. Like the Hershey's dark chocolates, nah, we don't need that. We want a cabaret in our life. What about a town in England, just a town that you think we should maybe give a closer look as Americans for the food? Bristol. You said it so fast. I love it. It's great. I'm a West Country boy.

41:23I was born in the West. The West is the best. Bristol is possibly the fourth or fifth biggest city, but it is down in the West Country, and it has a thriving food scene. I mean, look, Manchester's fantastic. Liverpool's beautiful. It's got some good restaurants. Birmingham's great. but for me, Bristol, I'm always going down there and you're finding everything from Michelin star stuff to the best Sri Lankan to sort of fish and chips. There's just, it's a really independent. Bristolians see themselves as, you know, anyone who, if a train comes down from London, opens there, they just kick it out.

42:02They're not interested in London. And it's very, it's got a great club scene. It's got a great. It feels like a little like Philadelphia. Yes. I'm just drawn because like Philly is so local. They kick out chains. Exactly. It's a little bit underappreciated. It is that. And you would, being the West Country, of course, there's very good cheeses and dairy and great, great, you know, all the feels. So great meat. But Bristol, I get, you know, I go down there about once a month with a friend of Michael Marken who lives there. And he's always finding, oh, this place is open. And, you know, for example, the Mexican.

42:35We've never had good Mexican. We've never had enough Mexicans in the UK to have good Mexican. But it's changing. So Santillante de Lastra, he's got a star for cold, maybe not too. Anyway, at long last, Mexican food for me is one of the great cuisines of the world. It's up there with French, Chinese, Indian. Brother, it's two of us. It's the best. It's truly one of the best. And so I crave, I try and get there once a year, whether it's to Oaxaca or Guero or the Yucatan. And I just love Mexican. And it's just the food. And we're just beginning to get Mexican. and same with Thai food as well, in that just like with Indian food, everything was dulled down.

43:11It became over-sweet and turgid and boring, you know, a green curry that tasted like a sort of candy bar. Now, of course, there's Issan and there's Southern. I want my head - You're starting to get the regional, guys. I think New York is having an incredible Thai boom that we're going to see for the next five years. I have to go back to Manchester as an aside. Did you ever go to the Hacienda in like the early 90s? I was a big raver, but I spent many a time in a warehouse or a field dancing to repetitive beats and very happily so. Never went to the Haciendas. So if I was, let me see, I started raving about 16, 17.

43:43So that would have been 92, 93. So it was coming to the end. You know, the first, I was a second summer of love. The first summer of love, you know. But of course it was the DJs there, the Graham Parks. Of course you had the Happy Mondays. And you had, you know, it was an incredible. Manchester, I was up there last week. and found this, just a friend of mine called Tom Hetherington is a great mank and he always said, well, you've got to try this and that and Manchester, again, they're much friendlier up north than they are in London and Manchester has a thriving food scene as well but I went to a really good place which is a French bistro actually in a sort of not very cool but an up and coming part of town.

44:20I love that. I love to hit some of these towns. Blur or Oasis? There is only one right answer. I would say, I would say, I don't know. So it's difficult. It's like Sophie's Choice. It is. I love Oasis and I would love, I think they're brilliant for swagger. Yeah. But I like, you know, Beetlebum. I do like Blur. And Alex James is a cheesemaker. I was going to say, Alex James is a cheesemaker. Please come on the show, Alex James. He's got a book out. So he's a very, very nice man. He lives down in the country and I know him well. So that's why I probably say, because I love Alex. And so probably be just.

44:56That is the correct answer. You got the correct answer. I think Blur is clearly the superior band. I went to see them last summer at Wembley. It was last summer. They were brilliant. They've got 10 hits. I mean, you know, I saw them at Glastonbury as well. But they're just fantastic. But then again, Oasis. Modern Life is Rubbish is, I think, the best album. Oh, absolutely amazing. That's probably the one for me. But if you think Oasis will dominate the world with these, I mean, they sold out into, it sort of broke the internet when they. It's game over. Oasis is definitely the bigger band now with this reunion tour.

45:26Yeah, that'll be a big one. They're obviously coming over here to Mexico City. They're coming to New York. They're coming to LA, I thought. You know, they're doing the big city. The Alex James memoir is quite good. Absolutely brilliant. I love his, and then he has the book about cheese making in the Cotswolds, which I'd like to, which I've read as well. So I really want to have him on the show because I'm a huge fan of his work. And also he's the nicest man in the world. He loves cheese. I love it. He really loves cheese. Tom, on This is Taste, we asked guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check.

45:56Are you ready? Yes. The best fruit? British strawberries at the peak of summer. When is that? Oh, gosh, we're talking June to about end of August. So Wimbledon era time. Wimbledon, ask at Wimbledon, they sort of start and then you don't want them once. They're not British anymore. Not for some stupid jingoistic reason, but they're just not their sweetest and fattest. I love it. The worst vegetable. Swede. Yeah, yeah. A swede turnip. Listen, I realize it's fodder and it has its place, but I don't even like parsnips. They're big with Sunday roast and they're too sweet for me. You know, I like a bit of savoriness in my vegetables.

46:31Yeah, that's a great call. The best dessert.

46:36Ooh, gosh. I would say, you know, I found out in another book I did a few years ago that sticky toffee pudding, which is a grape, is not actually a British dessert. No way. It's Canadian. I traced its roots back to Canada. But I would say sticky toffee pudding or a treacle sponge, a big, big, big whack of light sponge with lots of treacle over it. Treacle sponge. So, you know, the Eaton Mess is like big in the States. Is it? I've been seeing it. I actually had one in California. I had one in New York. Yeah, it's big. Is it? I've never saw it. I went to that school. I never saw it there. But it's a nice dessert as well.

47:08Yeah, I like that as well. Or Pavlova, an Aussie one. But yeah, treacle sponge, I think. I love that. Okay, a restaurant you are most excited to visit in the world? You know what? going back to Mexico or Thailand it would be just you know whether it's in Mexico City a taco stand with a big Q and you think oh wow they're doing that chorigueso they're doing the sort of El Pastore there and you've read about it and you're desperate and same with Thailand you know I was down with David Thompson who wrote for me one of the great food books of all time Thai food and he speaks Thai and his husband is Thai so going with him and travelling with him and I get excited about tiny noodle stalls and stuff that's what you know Noma factor all fantastic all part of everything but really when it comes out i get excited about getting balls deep into into a food culture on the street i love that a restaurant you wish could come back from the dead uh in the uk there was a great restaurant there's a very important restaurant in the 80s called kensington place that the roly lee a fantastic chef along with the river cafe along with bubendum showed that in london those days are very cheap or very expensive.

48:16It was either Michelin, the Gavroche or the Ritz or fish and chips. And it showed that you could have good food but yet be relaxed. You didn't have to wear a suit. They were really, really important. So I would like to, and I sort of grew up there. Yeah, it's like a family. It's a family place. And so it's Kensington Place would be great. But there's a few, I mean, what's the oldest one in New York? Was it Delmonico's? Yeah, Delmonico's is like one of the oldest in the country down in Wall Street. Is it still going? Yeah, definitely still open. Because I've seen the old menus. Yeah, the menus are cool.

48:42I haven't been in years, but it's still there. your favorite city outside the UK to visit for food? That would be between Bangkok and Mexico City. Yeah. I would Tokyo, but no, it'd be between Mexico City. Last one. And this is important because your people invented this. Your favorite sandwich. Well, I have a lot of time for a proper, and there's recipes in the back of the book, lots of recipes for sandwiches in the book. Really good ham and mustard with lots of butter. I like that very much. I might have to be controversial and go French and say ham en beurre. A really good baguette with an inch of cold, creamy butter, gherkins, and thick-cut, really good ham.

49:23Absolutely love the gherkin inclusion of that one. Tom Parker Bowles, what a pleasure. I really love this conversation. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much for having me. As ever with people who love food, I could bang on for hours with you. But anyway, thank you very much. Thanks, buddy.

49:44Hey, it's Matt here. This is usually where we do three things. You know, Eliza's usually sitting across from me, and we're doing some banter. We're talking about our weekends. We're talking about our weeks. Eliza's on vacation. She's in Taiwan. So I am going to do a monopod, a monopod. Everyone does monopods these days. And I'm one of them. And I wanted to talk about my recent trip to London where I was visiting friends, and I got to visit some amazing restaurants, one cultural institution. And I'd been there a year ago and really I just want to keep going back and back to London. It's one of my favorite cities to visit.

50:22So it's an international city, that's an understatement. And really I love the way this city changes every five years and I really caught it at a cool time right after the holidays. I love traveling internationally the first week of January if I can. And I feel like that is the time when hotel prices are low and really the streets are empty and you can get reservations at restaurants. And I got a great lineup here. So off the plane, I was able to make a return stop to St. John Bread and Wine, you know, just off Spitalfields Market. Classic, classic Fergus Henderson restaurant. it is truly my favorite restaurant in London having not been a regular visitor but really when I go I try to make it there what did I have okay I had a I had an incredible hunk of smoked mackerel and some dilly potato salad oh my god so much mackerel on this trip it'll make it a return appearance some this chicken liver too and and I have to say I've had some chicken liver in my day and the way this was kind of spread across this crusty bread, this toast, it was a work of art.

51:30I loved the way the texture was just perfect and it had a single brandied prune and some cornichons on the side. Really loved that. Poached cod with some purple sprouting broccoli. Fish, fish, fish. Another theme you're going to hear on this. And, of course, I went with the desserts. And I want to really, I want to tap in one day and figure out what is up with the St. John double baked chocolate cake because it is a work of art. I did some deep Reddit searching last night. I looked on some boards. People love this dish. I'm sure the recipe is there. I think my takeaway was that it's very hard to make and it was topped with kind of a really sour creme fraiche.

52:14I think we call that sour cream in the States. But really it was a perfect pairing. And the texture of this double-baked chocolate cake is it's so light inside but rich. It doesn't lack that body of like a really solid chocolate cake, a fudgy cake. And so it had this like light texture and deep rich chocolate flavor. Loved that. I also went to Maison Francais, you know, near St. James Square in Buckingham. And this was a recommendation from Colin Nagy of the great, why is this interesting newsletter. and man about town. He has great recommendations. I hope to have Colin into the studio this year.

52:54It's been something that we've been talking about for a while. Thank you for the rec, Colin, because we went to this place, Maison Francais, and this appears to be a bit of a power lunch spot. I think of it maybe like Michael's in New York or even JG. You do some business there. We rolled in at 9 a.m. on Monday. The dining room was empty, and I love that when you can go to a dining room and see the space and have nobody bumping up against you. Simple breakfast of croissants, eggs, and granola. I mean, the food was pretty good. You know, nothing worth noting, but I just loved this restaurant. And it just begged a lot of questions.

53:31Like, what is this place? What is Maison Francais? Is this the place that business goes down in London? There's a bar downstairs. It's a massive restaurant. So I'm going to head back during the day or even evening on my next trip. Okay, a pause from the restaurants. and this was a great recommendation from Eliza. She was like, if you're going to London, go to Barbican Center, get the tour. I booked it. It's actually kind of hard to book. I mean, I had to book like weeks in advance. This structure is incredible. It is a modern Brutalist masterpiece and later this month, we are going to be talking about another Brutalist masterpiece back in the States, the Sauk Institute in San Diego.

54:13Eliza and I were able to visit there But we love brutalist architecture here. The Barbican is, you know, a little bit of history. It's the home of the London Symphony. There's movie premieres there. It's a performing arts center, you know, in the large halls. But really what it is, is a residential center. There's, I think, like 1 ,700 residents or units there. And for me, walking around, getting this tour, this two-hour tour, and seeing this architecture that is purely functional, the interiors that we get to peek into are incredible. And if you watch the show, the agency, the U.S. version, the main character has an apartment at the Barbican and you can see him hanging out on the terraces, which they have in many of the two large towers.

55:01There's also lower structures that have really cool courtyard views. And we got to walk into the courtyard. And I just have to say this is such a great walking tour, a docent tour head there. OK, back to restaurants. Rochelle Canteen in Shoreditch. I checked in with a couple of friends. This seemed to be on the list of many. So we went and it was a nice, I would say, segue from St. John. There's certainly an overlap there. It was opened in 2004 by Melanie Arnold and Margot Henderson, the wife of Fergus Henderson. And Margot is a New Zealand-born chef of great acclaim. And this restaurant really delivered.

55:42I mean, it's 20 years old and it feels like it's such a classic London spot now. And, you know, it's kind of hidden away in Shoreditch in a courtyard. And what do we have? We had roasted Sutton Ho, which I didn't know this breed of chicken, this style of chicken. Delicious with turnips, bacon, and really like a chimichurri. I loved that. It was so simple. Tried some pumpkin malgatani, a beautiful skate with capers and lemons. And I just I thought it was a classic, you know, I would say the modern British cuisine or new British cuisine. If it wants to be a dovetail or segue from new American cuisine, I would call it that.

56:24Terrific recommendation. Another restaurant, Rambutan in Borough Market. My return visit. I love this restaurant. You know, Cynthia has been on the show, the chef owner. She published an incredible cookbook two years ago called Rambutan. Alex Lau shot the photos and I love that cookbook it's definitely one of my favorites you know we're thinking about doing a big cookbook project it is the 25th year of the 21st century that's a little bit of a hint I gotta talk to Eliza about this one but we might be going back and looking at some classic books of the past 25 years stay tuned for that because I believe Rambutan will be on the list but really we got to have a quick lunch there love it solo lunch at the bar Burrow Market on a Saturday Please don't go there ever.

57:10Oh, my God. That was such a mistake. I'm such a newbie tourist move. Couldn't even get in. That's fine. Got to have a great lunch. Had a couple of dishes. Smoked haddock white curry with fenugreek and winter tomatoes. I love when tomatoes are stewed down in this bowl of curry with this really beautiful haddock, which was smoky and flaky. and I had a little naan on the side. I scooped it up. I love that. And I also had a terrific cheesy toasty, cheese toasty, maybe cheesy toasty called, I don't know if you want to add voles to the beginning of it, but it had a great sambal on it. Really rich in the center.

57:52Toasties are, of course, legend in the UK. And I think I had a few toasties. This was my favorite. Rambutan in Burrow Market, definitely go there. It's kind of a tough reservation at night at times, but I think lunch was great. Just walked in. And again, first week of January, great time to visit places like London, New York. New York into February, I was booking a table for a restaurant tonight and recording this on a weekday. And wow, it was easy to find a restaurant reservation right now. This is the time to hit those spots. Okay, away from the restaurants, I checked out this photo show at the photographer's gallery in that little corridor of photography.

58:33I would say there's a museum, there's a couple galleries, but this is one of the bigger ones. This is a museum. And I think Craig Maude had posted this on his stories a few months ago, and I was like, I got to check this out. Leticia Battaglia, Life, Love, and Death in Sicily. What an incredible show. Now, Leticia is a famous photojournalist having shot in Sicily throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s. And if you can use the clues, there is murder. There is a lot of murder in these images. And she's shooting covers for Panorama and many of the major dailies across Europe and covering this rash of violence that Cicely saw in the 70s and 80s.

59:18and what a ballsy and bold photojournalist, but what an artistic eye. And I have to say, of course, there's death in these images, but I took great pleasure in seeing some of the other images that didn't involve death and involve the people of Sicily. Her portraiture is just incredible and Leticia Battaglia, what a legend. I have one more restaurant to mention and it was quite the highlight and Priyanka Matu had told me about this spot and it was her favorite. And it did not disappoint. Pali Hill in Soho, Chef Avi Shashidara, I think I'm getting that right, is the chef there. Avi worked at River Cafe before opening this restaurant a few years back.

1:00:03It is a menu that spans the subcontinent of India. So I had some dosas with this beautiful sambar, this like root vegetable sambar with turmeric potatoes and tomato chutney. the papadichat I mean when papadichat hits I think it's one of my favorite dishes in all the world you know that it's got the yogurt and at the bottom it's really really fresh and and and and cool but it has you know delicatous pumpkin in this one some tomatoes of course pomegranate with a little bit of herbs on top mint and tamarind and of course a chutney and wow it was such a pleasure just like I think it was the first dish that we got and we were just like digging in but I think probably the highlight was a tandoori chicken tikka I mean tandoori chicken obviously we all know what that is but this one was special really really tender really perfectly cooked deeply flavorful served with a mint salad a little bit of grated fresh horseradish on top Wow.

1:01:10Pally Hill delivered. I hope to go back there. I know they do tasting menus. We did a la carte and that's in Soho. But yeah, general thoughts about London. Again, like what a cool restaurant city. You know, guys tells you London is cool. I guess that's what we're doing here. But really, I think of it as one of our great evolving cities. And I always read vittles when I can. Jonathan and crew there are hitting the deep cuts. I know I hit some more classic spots and I wasn't able to make debris. Brixton, which I wanted to check out some spots there. But next visit, I will make sure to hit that up.

1:01:43But, you know, you should book that flight. And if you got, like, any points or anything, you can get over there in the winter. It's a great time to visit. Whether it might not be great, but who cares when you're inside eating at restaurants. That's me going solo. I wish Eliza was here across to, like, talk about her style of dining in London. She goes there a little bit more frequently than me. She will be back in February. But thank you for listening. Appreciate it.

1:02:11This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.