533: Paneer's Possibilities and Big Ideas in Modern Indian Cooking with Romy Gill

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0:32Growing up in a Punjabi household very much vegetarian and plant-based cuisine I would go to my neighbours or my friend's house and say my parents haven't fed me my mum hasn't fed me and I would eat the food of my friend's house as well and they knew they had fed me I liked the rice and fish but also vegetarian food it's just done right, it's so delicious This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

1:22On this episode, we talk about what drives her to write a perfect recipe and how her London home base informs so much of her work. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:41Romigil, welcome to This is Taste. How are you doing? I'm great. Isn't it fantastic? The weather is so good. It's snowing in England. It's snowing in England right now? Yes! Uh-oh. What does that mean? Does it shut down? Does England shut down? Depends. Yes, we do. But I think it's great. I think all the different states in the UK will have different types, you know, snow. It melts. Yeah, yeah. You're from the Southwest, though, or you live in the Southwest? I do live in Southwest of England, yes. What is, what's it like where you live food-wise? Is there like, I mean, listen, we know London. We might know like where the soccer clubs are, but we don't know the Southwest as the Southwest.

2:17What is it like? See, Southwest is fantastic because if you go to Versa, we have Devon, we have Cornwall, we have Bath. Cotswolds is very near. And I am very in between Bath and Bristol near Stroud. So it's beautiful. The fish is amazing from Devon and Cornwall. And we have fantastic independent restaurants in Bristol. And, you know, after London, I would say the place that you want to come out and eat is Bristol. And the independent restaurants are doing so well. People support them. I think that's what the key is. Yeah. We had a guest talk about Bristol recently and said, honestly, the same thing.

2:54It makes me think we need one more for three's a trend and maybe we'll do a Bristol story. Yes. So when you're in New York, where do you like to go out? You come here quite often. So what's it like? See, I have so many friends. They'll take me out to different places. I love going to various restaurants. I just leave it up to them. because yesterday I just landed and I went to do my dinner event. But I'm eating, you know, I know Janoon, I know Zadbar. They have been my friends for a very long time. But also Vikas is a dearest friend and Bangalore is doing amazing. So I'm seeing him today or tomorrow.

3:31So I think I love the Indian vibe here that is getting that, you know, UK vibe with Indian food is completely different in America or New York. I love that you brought that up because I'm very curious about how you perceive and what you think about, you know, American chefs cooking Indian food here right now. And then you say it's very different in the UK. So what do you mean by that? The thing is, say food should not have any boundaries. If there is no culture appropriation, if you, I think when you're cooking the food with understanding where the food is, where the chefs are, where the country is, why can't other people cook, you know, cook food?

4:13I think food should not have those kind of values. It should bring people together, not just divided. So I think what in UK, the food scene like Dishoom, I don't know if you ever went to Dishoom. Dishoom completely changed the food scene of UK with Indian food. They taught British people the regional Indian food. So which I have been saying that Indian food is not just Indian. We look different. We speak different languages. And you've been to India. We have so much, you know, diverse food in India, not just with food, but language as well and culture, rituals, everything come. And we look very different from one another.

4:48So I think the UK food scene that happened, but we also had the Michelin star restaurants, which is like, you know, Artuli is amazing. He was first with Vinit Bhatia, the Michelin chef. And then same year, they got the Michelin. And then, you know, Saida Stoediwala, Vivek Singh, fantastic male chefs. But then all these women now coming up and doing fantastic work from Indian, you know, different states of India. So you have to understand now people, with social media, I have to say, comes good and bad points. With social media comes also knowledge that India is very diverse, you know, and people are traveling more.

5:22So with travel comes knowledge, you know, about people, about food. I think that now since I'm coming to New York, I think the Indian food scene is so, so much better than I came 20 years ago. Oh, definitely. Most definitely. It's amazing. But it sounds like the UK is even better than the States. It feels like the complexity and you would have Gujarati cuisine or Punjabi, Carolyn, in a city like London. I mean, it's unbelievable what you're talking about. I mean, chefs are doing fab things in London with different kinds of cuisine. I think UK, if you go in UK, London is the most multicultural food scene.

6:05Not only through people, but the food scene is just completely different. So I think that, I think New York, yes, great. But then the food, Indian food, I have to say it's much better. No, I think you're right. And I agree fully. I think London is the most international city in the world. And the food scene, it really connects to that. And what was food like growing up for you? I know you've written about this in your previous books as well as your current book. You've traveled a bit when you were young. You didn't live in one place. Talk about that a bit. So my parents migrated, my dad migrated from up north from Punjab to West Bengal in Burnpur.

6:45So he worked in a steel plant. It's one of the oldest steel plants in India. So like my dad, a lot of people from different states came to work there. I was born and brought up with my other siblings and we were born there. So I think it's a Bengali culture there. But because my parents were Punjabi, there were people from, because we lived near the Bihar border, a lot of Biharis, people from different South Indian states. One of my good friends is from Kerala, Andhra Pradesh. And then people came from Kashmir, every state, Gujarat, Rajasthan. So I think I grew up speaking so many different Indian languages, and they're very different from one another.

7:20And also sharing food culture was very important, because there were no phone, you know, social media or television, you know, things like that. So for me, I think growing up was it was always about cricket and food. Really? Yeah. Cricket is life. Absolutely. So cricket, food connected together. I think that and also the train journeys that I would go on a 24-hour train journey from Assan Sol to Rudhyana or Jalandhar up north. It was more than a 24-hour journey. So the food that my parents would pack as a picnic and then also when the train would stop in different states and it would have those kind of different little delicacies of that state would be fantastic.

8:00Yeah, I had that when I was driving from Mumbai to Pune. I definitely could see like roadside snacks, like really being, I mean, I was in the same state, so it wasn't that different than like a train journey. But in India, it was remarkable how cuisine, you could really just hit that roadside shop and get that regional food. Tell me about West Bengali cuisine. I'd be really curious to hear about it. So as you know, Bengal is very much fish. You know, fish and rice is a staple diet of the state. They eat a lot of vegetables as well. But also the sweets are a very, very important part of their Bengali culture.

8:34They will always have something very sweet, which is always made from like a cottage cheese, you know, paneer we called. So the paneer that's made and that how the sweets are then made. So I think that fish that people will eat every single day. Meat, yes, maybe every week or every other week, but fish has to be every day. So for me, growing up in a Punjabi household, very much vegetarian and plant-based cuisine, I would go to my neighbor's or my friend's house and say, my parents haven't fed me, my mom hasn't fed me, and I would eat the food of my friend's house as well. And they knew they have fed me, but I liked the rice and fish.

9:13But also vegetarian food is not, you know, it's just done right. It's so delicious, right? Plant-based food in India is naturally plant-based. We are not putting anything in it to make it look like something else. So I think the variation of different food in Bengal and then going to my friend's house, Simi's mom's house, and they're from Kerala, and they would cook fish in a very different way to Bengali fish, you know? So I think learning from a little childhood, understanding of different flavors from a childhood, because I didn't like cooking when I was young. I loved eating, but cooking was not good.

9:49What unlocked it for you? When did you decide that you were actually going to commit to cooking? I think it was my mom had cancer when I was doing my A-levels. And that completely changed because her life was always around her kids. cooking food was very, very, you know, core of that, my mum, and feeding, you know, my friends. But when she had cancer, when she was having radiotherapy, actually, the taste of her, you know, the flavours changed for her. And she would add a lot of salt, a lot of spices, chilies, and then say, oh, still not enough. So I think that really clicked, that how something happening at that age for my mum, and then understanding that I really wanted to do something for my mind.

10:33And that is when actually that clicked. You write about it in the book. Tell us a little bit about Romy Gill's India, which is not your first book, but this feels like probably one of the most personal. I mean, it felt that way reading it. And I have a few other questions about the book because there's a lot of really cool nuggets in there and it's really original work. But what inspired you to write it? I think that as like you said, Matt, It's my third book. With the first book and the second book, they are very different, you know. I wanted, I thought that now people know a little bit about me.

11:08I really wanted to share my story where I come from, how I became a chef and things like that. I think that needed to be very personal. I had to go back and take, you know, go back where I was born and brought up. I went back with my friend who lives in New York, Reshmi, and my dad came with me on this journey. And you know Porras very well as my photographer. He works with me a lot of many times. So we went on a journey that where I grew up and where I was born in the hospital and to go back to school where one of my teachers said, I think teachers are such an important part of your growing up.

11:40They can make and break you, right? And one of the teachers, sadly, she's no more. She said, you will never become anything in your life. So I really wanted to show her this. Look at me now. So I think I really wanted to share a little things of my life and bring that what I ate when I was growing up, the journeys that I took, the chef that I am today or an author or writer. And also, you know, share the cricket, the, you know, Anglo-Indian cake in there, that I have in there. And then also cuisines from my chefs, my friends that I ate. They've also kind of shared with me. So I think it was a really I think this is my best book.

12:20Yeah, no, it's a beautiful book. I want to pick up your other books, too. But and, you know, this book starts with a doll chapter, which I find says something about doll. And I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about opening the book with doll and really why that choice. The thing is, dal lentils, people have, everybody have in their kind of cupboard, like, you know, red lentils, let's say. I wanted to tell people there is more to lentils than just red lentils. We eat a lot of different lentil pulses and chickpeas and things like that. So I think, and also it's a very, dal is one of those auspicious things in India that every state will eat.

13:04And it's something they cook in very differently. And it's a very cheap meal, but also a delicious, comforting meal. And when I'm down, I think dal is something that comforts me. So I think I wanted to have that, that you can make and warm your heart, really. Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of North America. We have beans, we have legumes. And, you know, it's a similar story. You know, it's like one of those dishes that is done differently in every state and in Mexico and Canada, etc. But like when you're thinking about dal as like an American cook, maybe non-Indian, of course, background, how do we do it?

13:40How do we think about it? I think start with the red lentils. The red lentils, exactly. Red lentils. It's all about in the lentils. I think you have to soak, the wash, drain, all that. This is really important. I think once you know how to do that, I think you can kind of start doing with any Indian cuisine as well. Very exciting. And you got to have the spices, the Daba box, right? Yeah, you got to have your box. You write, the citizens of Punjab all lost a great deal during the partition of India, but have since grown on to flourish rather than merely survive. You know, tell us about partition.

14:16I feel like it's a time in Indian history that, you know, has a lot of legacy, has a lot of controversy. But for our listeners, you know, how did partition change the foodways of Punjab? I just think we should hear about it from you. I think you have to, like my grandparents and everybody used to talk about it. I think partition was something, it affected both the sides. I can't just say it affected India, but it both sides. People left their homes, their businesses, their families from Pakistan side of India and then to come to Indian side of India and similarly from India to going to Pakistan.

14:52A great deal of people lost a lot of things, not the houses, not the businesses, but families lost. And I think when people talk, we just talk about the Indian side. We never talk about both sides. I think both sides were affected really badly. But also, you know, we still speak the same language, Punjabi or Hindi or Urdu. And food methods are quite similar as well. So it wasn't, I think, you know, when you are going on that train journey, if you read a book by Jasvan Singh, it's a beautiful book, but it's a very emotional book as well. And I did a story on Marita Pritham, who was a great, great poet, and how she lost and they came to Delhi and how seeing all the trains filled with, you know, fields filled with blood both sides.

15:33So I think for me to write that, and especially with the Sikhs, you know, we are very border of Pakistan and to have that was very, for me to write, very important to go back to my roots and write about it and how people suffered in both sides. And if you see Punjabis have not had really, you know, things with partition, but also 1984, it still is really emotional within the Sikhs community. What happened then? Because when Indra Gandhi, who was a prime minister, was assassinated and then, you know, hell opened and Sikhs were, you know, a lot of things happened to Sikhs. I think to be able to then come abroad and make the life and do things and seek, you know, any Punjabis have done wonderful restaurants from any part of the world you go, you'll be able to find an Indian restaurant and you'll be able to find a tandoori chicken.

16:29Yeah, it's why, you know, Punjabi cuisine is prevalent in the Midwest, in Los Angeles, all over in Texas, and many consider it Indian cuisine. But of course, as we just discussed, India is filled with regional cuisines. But Punjabi has, at least from an immigration story, has been prominent in the States. I think they marked, I would say the Indian food would be marked with the Punjabi cuisine is how they have evolved everywhere in the world. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing some history. I just think I'd like to bring some in whenever possible, especially speaking with a journalist like yourself.

17:06Tell me about Calcutta. I feel like there's part of your story that you're there and you write really vividly about this city that you lived in. What's it like there? See, Calcutta and Bengal, you have to understand when a British ruled India. So Calcutta was the capital and a jute company and all that was there. So if you go to Calcutta, you'll see buildings which look very much like, you know, in the UK, some of them, and a lot of historical buildings, but the cricket and everything, you know, is surrounded. When you go back, it's all about colonies and buildings on there. And you have to understand there's always a good and bad point, but you have to go back and kind of go on this journey.

17:49You know, history, we can't change history, right? We have to then think how what happened to ancestors or people and how what evolved in there, like the churches and a lot of Anglo-Indians there. When my dad worked in the burn put steel plant, it was, you know, all that kind of things that really was important to me and to go back to my roots and understand that when you're a child, when you're young, you don't have those understanding of when you're growing up, really. So going back this time and, you know, I write about this cake, there's a fruit cake, which was such a, I served that yesterday.

18:25It's such an important part for me to write in that book because it's very much Anglo-Indian cake. My mum wouldn't bake, which we didn't have oven to bake and she was not interested to do that. She would buy these cakes during, just before Christmas that would be sold outside that wild hotel. And she would buy lots of them and hide it. Me and my brother would find it, eat it. But I think that cake has some emotions. It has love in it. And I wanted to kind of share that recipe. And that recipe is really, really easy and delicious to make. And I wanted to have the cream rolls. We call cream horns in the UK.

19:00And my publishers were like, do you not have an Indian name? I said, no, that is how we grew up eating. And cream rolls, fruitcake, I needed to put those in it because I just think that I didn't grow up just in Punjabi household. I grew up with a variety of food that was surrounded around me. Yeah, your background is tremendous. I mean, and of course, you would later move to England and you have that chapter in your life. And I think your point of view is really unique in that you can kind of bounce between cultures and document it. I want to know a little bit about the writing of the book because I really, really like the documentary approach to this book.

19:40You mentioned Porus, and we have to shout him out. I got to travel with him in Mumbai and around the state in this July for a magazine story. And he's writing a work in a cookbook that will be announced soon. But tell me about how do you how do you get from point A to point B with your crew? What's it like making this book? Because it really is my kind of book. I love it. So, you know, if you see, I also write for New York Times sometimes for the travel. So I've been very lucky with we had a magazine called Suitcase Magazine. So I always thought I can't write. So one of the Guardian writers called Mina and, you know, she said everyone can write, just write a little bit.

20:19And she kind of helped me in that process. And then I, Suitcase Magazine, I first time ever went to Ladakh with my family and I wrote about it. And I thought I can actually really, I'm dyslexic, but I can still write really well. If you see my emails and my texts, you will know I'm dyslexic. But when it comes to writing documentary, like a journalist, I'm very good at it. I can just put my head into it and I can write. So I think for me, I like to tell a story. I love telling a story. If I am looking at that building, I will have so many hundred things going in my head about that building. So I think I research a lot.

20:58I just don't like to kind of look. I research through my hospitality friends. You know, hospitality is the most welcoming industry. Yeah, of course. I write to my chefs and my friends. I just don't like to sit on computer and research. I like to ask where could I go, who should I meet, and then I connect. That is my way of doing it. So anything I write for any magazine I travel or a book, I really like to kind of connect with the people over there. So how did you make this book? How are you traveling around India? What's your crew? And where did you go for this book? because you clearly put in the time in this book.

21:34So I went to Burnpur where I was born and brought up with my dad and my friend and Poros and then another person. So I think you have to have that visualize where you're going, how you're going to meet, you have to all that plan that. And then I went back to Punjab where my dad lives. So I needed to go back to, I'm a Punjabi, so I wanted to go back there and go to Golden Temple, which is a very important part of me. And then also there's, you know, where I write about the partition thing. There's a museum there in Amritsar. So you have to go and kind of learn. And even the food that you're eating, you have to meet these people in order to write about them.

22:10You can't just say, oh, so and so go online and do it. You have to eat the food of that person and be able to then write. You know, you have to live in their shoes to be able to write about that person and the food. So for me, I am very clearly when I do something about a book, it has to be make sure that I have the whole package before I go to India. Because, yes, you know, Indians, sometimes if you say you're going to come at six o 'clock, they turn at eight o 'clock. They never kind of timing is not important. So I think for me. Yeah, hard to make a cookbook that way. Yeah. Yeah. I experienced that firsthand with my crew that we were working on these stories.

22:51But it all works out in the end, of course. Of course. Yeah. What other cities did you visit? I feel like there's probably more that you visited. I think the only part that I haven't been so far in India is the northeast. I have only been few states in northeast and I have not been to Rajasthan. So that's what I'm going next. Okay, it's on the docket. Well, on the note of travel, I guess I'd like to get your sense, you're a travel writer as well as a cookbook author. But how do we as Americans, without knowing much about India, but like understanding that the food is delicious and that there's a lot of culture.

23:29How do we travel to India? How do you recommend it? I mean, is there a must visit city and how do we travel around? Yeah, I think personally, when you're going so far, try to kind of not just do the triangle. Like a lot of people do is, they'll go to Rajasthan, Taj Mahal and Dali and like a triangle they do. I think please go further out in the villages, Look at the tribal India. We have a lot of different things in India. It's not just those cities, you know. You know, if you're going somewhere, plan really well. And then also, I think every city in India is iconic. I can't just put you have to go there.

24:07You know, everybody will be after me. So I love going. For me personally, it has to be Himalayas. It has to be my last book, which I wrote on the Himalayan trail, has to be Kashmir and Ladakh. It's one of the most, I just think it's a paradise. It's beautiful. People are lovely. You know, Indian hospitality is amazing, but that hospitality is another level. So I think if you want to visit India, must, must have on your list to go to Kashmir and Ladakh. I love that recommendation. Is it difficult to get there? It is, but it's possible now. Okay. Yes. Interesting. So it's possible, but difficult.

24:43Heading south, is there one other location? I'm just curious that we should visit. I think Hyderabad. If you're a foodie person, you love food, Hyderabad, I think you must go. Obviously, that's Karolais, Mysore, and places like that. But for me personally, it's Hyderabad. Yeah. And, you know, it's a tech center, right? Hyderabad has a lot of technology. Amazing biryani. And amazing biryani. We can get off the tech stuff and talk about biryani there. I like that. I personally am on this quest to enjoy more Gujarati cooking. I got to try some in Mumbai and I haven't stopped thinking about it. For you, Gujarat and Gujarati cuisine, what does that mean?