536: Jason Diamond’s Guide to NYC with Writer and Garlic Lover Jason Diamond

29:35He's such a nice, sweet guy. And he's 90. Yeah, he's 90. He's got a crazy story. Crazy story. And yeah, it's just like, none of that food is healthy. And that's what matters. It's like, none of that food is healthy. it's gonna kill you but maybe it will kill you he's 90 he probably eats he might dip in and have like a fried oreo once yeah but like to me it was like that was like you know my new york my my my new york was like rays and then odessa when it was open uh the bar and the restaurant oh the bar next door yeah bar yeah yeah which is i think originally was the bar first yep it was and whenever i go to now it's superiority burger which is you know one of my favorite restaurants whenever I go there I always I always want to ask Brooks I'm like do you did you have any reason like was the the fact that Henry Rollins got asked to be in Black Flag here was that part of the reasoning for getting this space because I always think about that because like the punk rock allure on that block alone is just oh yeah I mean at the place across from Niagara that's where Black Flag played an early New York show and possibly their first I'm not yeah Niagara used to be 7A's 7A yeah that used to be like and then Tompkins Square You know, it's just such a cool area.

30:45And, you know, Rays, it's crazy to think about all the people that must have gone to Rays or passed through Rays, passed by Rays. You know, Nirvana played Pyramid Club right across the street. You know, RuPaul used to hang out there. It's just crazy. What a great little pocket, that Avenue A. And the fries at Rays, too. Oh, my God. Let's not forget about mentioning that. Okay, I want to narrow the conversation about pizza a little bit more. And you mentioned Mamba's, too, and industry are in there. But there's also some real choices. You know, Luigi's in Brooklyn. You've got Louie's on Baxter Avenue in Queens.

31:16I've never heard of it. And Louie and Arnie's as well. Which, I mean, this is really interesting and cool that these are the pizza places that made it into the book. When you were thinking about these four or five pizza spots, how did you come up with that list? interestingly enough uh so the one so the bronx a lot of the bronx stuff was uh one of nico's friends uh uh claw the the graffiti artist yeah claw has been living up in the bronx for a while so she brought us there uh the one in queens that was food baby uh oh yeah that was yeah he i guess he brings his kids there so uh louis yeah louis which was it looks great it was so good that that's a great slice and um you know mike knows food baby he knows he knows like that dude's yeah like he tells me something's good i'm like okay i believe you like i know you're really good with like making stuff look good on instagram but he's got some good opinions on stuff and uh he brought us there and the guy was telling us like the craziest stories um and it's interesting because that's one of those uh you know it's a little known fact i guess but a lot of the pizza places in New York now are owned by Albanians and him and his dad are Albanian.

32:32So it's, um, you know, probably the best Albanian owned pizza place I've been to, but, um, Luigi's that was, I believe Lil Mo mozzarella's pick. And I was so happy because that's my favorite pizza place in New York. That is my hands down number one. And I've been going there for so long, had no idea just how deep this guy was like he is like you know uh his name is um oh gosh luigi was his father i'm blanking on his name geo i think uh i mean he is lives and breathes pizza in a way that's like like legitimately old school you know it's not you know one of these guys who like just picked up a hobby and they got really good at it no he is legit it's his life yeah i know no he uh it's crazy it's just like he has this whole story like he's his parents are both immigrants i think and he was telling us like yeah when i you know when i was in school at whatever catholic school right down the street um he literally thought brooklyn was a country i think that's like that's like the the tagline that they have a t-shirt like he he didn't realize there was a whole world outside of brooklyn like it's so funny and he's kind of a a link to that but his pizza is ridiculous no it's definitely for brooklyn it's like a slept on place and we actually don't talk about a lot i'm I'm on the L &B Spivone Garden tip that's always been my Brooklyn pony.

33:52Yeah. But still, I mean, I'm not making comment because I like the methodology and it's not about, I mean, is this the best or is it just the one that connects with Nico and you and the one that has a great story? I don't think, I'm never a fan of saying this is the best. Agree. Thank you. I don't like, you know, the ranking stuff. That's why it's like I always tell people I'm definitely not a food critic. I would never be a food critic because it's all it's all about the experience. It's all about what you think. It's all about, you know, what you come away with as an eater. But for me, Luigi's has just always been perfect.

34:27And the the Sunday sauce he does is vegetarian on his grandma slice, which is I did not know that because I never. But I was just like in heaven at that one. Like, it's just so good. Speaking of food critic, I'll have to remind you of your Mission Chinese piece. Nice. But we'll leave that one for readers. Go back to the middle. People were coming. Literally, I had people coming. Because it's funny. I don't realize how many people read my newsletter. It's good. People read it. It's awesome. It's a great newsletter. I had somebody come up to me like, I read the thing about Mission Chinese. That was so mean.

34:57That's unlike you. And I'm like, I'm mean sometimes. But I just, you know, I have my moments where I'm just like, I've always liked, I thought Mission Chinese was good. Like I appreciated it and people loved it. But I just get to a point where I'm like, why? What are we doing here? Like, why are we still try something new? Don't keep I don't want to bash anybody. You're not. And I think your piece is what it is. And I'll leave it at that. Yeah. OK, I love, love, love Lloyd's Carrot Cake. Yeah. I love that you mentioned this place again. Single topic doing one thing. Though that place has it's a bakery.

35:31Yeah. All the things, of course. But they're known for this carrot cake. Talk about this place. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's one of those places that it's like there are so many different parts of New York. There's like Jewish New York, there's Puerto Rican, New York, there's black New York. There's, and I think Lloyd's is like, definitely like if you're from like Harlem and from the Bronx, you know it. Um, and I was really happy because it's like something like some of my friends who like grew up up there told me about. And I like that we kind of like get to bring this like one part of New York that other people might know, not know about, uh, you know, and be like, Like, yo, carrot cake is great, one.

36:07Bad carrot cake is real, and that's something you want to avoid. And there's a lot of it in New York. There's so many, like, carrot cake slice places that you just get it at the bodega or whatever, whatever. And it's just, like, weird. It's in, like, a cellophane route. Oh, yeah, I know that one. But, like, you know, it's funny because, like, with Lloyd's, it's, like, it has this, like, to me, I connect it back with, like, you know, the African-American community in New York. and like it's something like all the black people I knew would tell me about and be like oh Lloyd's you really like this and it's funny because it's just like how like a Jewish person be like no I'm going to tell you where the best black and white is or the best bagel is you're like okay or an Italian person says no this place has the best sauce you know or the best gravy you know and it was funny because I'd never been up there I'd had it before but we went up there and it was beautiful sunny day and there's this gorgeous park across the street forget which one I think it's Van Cortlandt maybe.

36:58And I'm just sitting outside eating this piece of carrot cake. And I'm like, this is heaven. Yeah. And this is what I love. It's like all these different places that I knew about or didn't know about. But I'll tell you, the one that blew my mind was in Harlem, literally. It's called Lili's Rugula. Oh, I've been there, my man. I had no idea until. That place is incredible. I was at a friend's Airbnb up there. who was staying from out of town and happened to be down the street. I love that place. Yeah. I was saying, and I got a little emotional. I was like, the fact that we live in a city where, you know, it's like we live in such a weird time where it's like, this group of people made this so they can only make it over this.

37:42No. In New York, and this is something that I was reminded of, in New York, you could have a black dude from the South who moves up here 50, 60, 70 years ago, ends up becoming just like this guy who lives in harlem and makes some of the best rugola maybe the best i don't know i'm not gonna say i thought it was incredible and he literally is so good at it that national rugola day is put on his birthday and you know to me it's like that's a that's a staple of like you know shul or you know whatever jewish holidays we had it on and that's over and i'm like i love that it's like this is that that's cross-cultural dialogue to me and also i think he makes the best black and white in manhattan i didn't try the black and white what makes a good black and white because i think this is a polarizing choice i think some don't quite get the the flavor of the cookie yeah texture is a big texture and flavor you get a chalky ass black and white cookie or a or it's too moist or it's too hard the two best i i could say right now if i was to do my ranking number one and two it's it's lily's and then uh chow gloria in brooklyn i i tell people i'm like you see those black and whites you grab one of those and again you know it's like that's he's all the child glory is not in the book but they've also got like rainbow cookies that would blow any known as socks off but you know it's more like hoity-toity whatever brooklyn part a little brooklyn-y yeah would you start with the black or you start with the white i go down the middle oh i go down the middle that's my yeah that's my that's okay so you know what bringing it back to seinfeld i guess that is my food choice he his whole thing he's got a lot of bad you know bad jokes bad opinions whatever but the black and white cookie he's right look to the cookie i love that cookie and uh i go right down the middle every time i love it well well give us one non-food stop because i don't want to forget about all of these great local stores for buying things there's vintage shops there's record shops there's musical instrument shops there's hardware stores give us one that just pops into your head right now i mean right away is quimby's uh which i hope gets to stay because it was right next to Crest.

39:47What is Quimby's? Talk about it. Quimby's is just the weirdest little bookstore. It's not like an indie bookstore in the traditional sense. It is an indie bookstore, but it's not Greenlighter Books or Magic. They're not selling all the Sally Rooney books. It's more... It's hard to explain, but they had one in Chicago when I was growing up. And that's what the zines were. Yeah, the zines. I fucking loved. I bought so many zines in the shop. Me too. I still go, every time I go back to Chicago, I go there. But they sell like Chick Tracks, you know, which was like, it was, you know, this very Gen X-y thing to be like, oh, look at these.

40:21These are cool art and weird stories about how you're going to hell for being you. You know, I just, I always liked that. I think those kinds of like weird eccentric sort of like places always need to live in New York because one, that's always going to keep the heart beating, but two, that's going to create the next generations of like weirdo kids who know too much and have you know uh way too much culture at their fingertips that's not just on the phone like if you could walk into a bookstore and find some weird stuff that's going to blow your mind well covering i mean indie presses and if you have an you know or graphic like these categories that maybe even like the books are magics the world don't have as much of a selection yeah i love that were you a see here guy no that was the basement zine shop on 7th street closed probably in 2005 no i never oh yes see here yes i did see here yeah yeah um i wasn't but i do i remember it i actually remember it had like they had ads in some zine a zine i've yeah they had a lot yeah they did ads and it was like subterranean it was probably like 500 square feet and it smelled like anyways oh yeah it's like rolled cigarettes oh it's so mate that smell of see here anyways that's that's my memory um but jason new york nico's guide to new york man what a terrific work and i'm please pick it up if you're going to be visiting new york soon you gotta you got there's a you got check spot check box yeah in the back of that was nico's big you know it was funny i i asked him like so how do you want to do this how do you want to and his his only he had help if he comes on the show he'll tell you about he he wanted to do some like he's like my influence is this bart simpson guide book i had when i was like a kid so i got it i'm like oh i see what you want to do here and uh but besides that the only real input he had at the start before we started really talking about was i want there to be a checklist in the back yeah uh and people are doing it there's this guy freaky fridge he's like a lower east side uh like just like lifer great guy showed up he's just like so nice and he's been going all the places he's been tagging them on i'm like first of all that's cool as hell second of all you're helping out the he's he's you know it's like he's buying stuff at the places and i mean you the good thing about new york is you can do it we have a subway pass and and and a couple hours you can knock off 10 of these yeah it's so cool about what this book has done we would do like five a day oh that was like it was crazy like you know and i'm like huh we just did you know we just did this uh in a full day i mean my stomach would be you know i know mess but oh that's the worst part about doing food writing sometimes and no one wants to complain about it but yeah when you have to do five restaurants a day yeah and you're going to like three places where they're just like hand making the mozzarella and they're feeding it to you and you're like oh i'm gonna die i have a very ashkenazi stomach um what was the last stop do you have a memory of like when you were like this is the end of our reporting no because you know it's funny um uh like jeremy and jess who was uh i keep calling her the cat wrangler of the whole thing but she was a project manager she was like uh the person booking all that yeah yeah yeah super jess bless you man that's the hardest job jess flores the god um shout out but uh and jeremy and nico we're all friends like we text you i mean like nico and jeremy and i have our own other group chat like the old jewish men group chat we know future ojm you had literally one podcast oh two two episodes i subscribed to it and i was like super into it and you literally did one so i'm just calling you too much of a schlep it was just no i know of course i'm kidding uh great great great key art though great key that's good yeah yeah but um no you know it was like we're friends like we text all the time and so it's like i don't really have like one last memory but it's funny because I remember we were we did one day uh in little caribbean on you know in brooklyn which is incredible I mean like I had never had pepah's chicken oh until we went and I don't know why I'd always wanted it was just like I love jerk chicken and all I I know like at least like three jamaican guys who like you gotta go to pepah's you got I think Anna Heasel that's one of her spots yeah I think so I think yeah yeah that was one of Shelly's uh big that was like the first place Shelly from who created Little Caribbean took us.

44:39So I was like, God, I got to do this. So now we get Peppas all the time. But that day we were going through Little Caribbean. And I remember it was, it wasn't the last, but I think it was going to be the last for the year. I was going to go out of town. It was almost Christmas. And we were just standing like kind of like it was just dusting of snow. And just we were all just kind of hanging out. I'm like, this is so fun. like I've got friends that were just going out and doing this and eating and talking to people and this is good it comes out in the book really Jason and you and Nico should be proud it there's really a fondness for your subjects and it's authentic which I think some of these projects can sometimes be done in like a lab almost and and you know a lot of city writing is done from desks and not from carrot cake shops and putting you the time in to go to the restaurants that I respect the hell out of that i do i mean thanks you know it's it's just you get to kind of like remember that we're all human we all have like hopes and dreams we all want to make sure that like you know our legacy is passed on you that's what a lot of these places are it's like family places uh and it's like you kind of get out of like it's just nice to get out of like the internet you know uh the cycle you're just like sort of like we were sitting at a place uh i don't know if you say on staten island like you do on long island i know i always get trip up on that yeah i think yeah in staten island does not ring as much as on staten yeah yeah i think you're i think you're onto something we were at lee's tavern which oh yeah i have gotten i got i purposely went on when when twitter was still anything anybody cared about i purposely went on twitter and i said uh new haven is dead the best clam pie is um is stat is lee's tavern on staten island and i i did that because i'm so sick of people being like pepe's is the greatest pizza in america because like it's a salt bomb for me yeah but it's like 15 years ago it was like on the first list you know like it's like the the magna carta of pizza list and i don't i like it i'm fine with it i love i'm more of a modern guy yeah i love modern pizza uh but i just wanted to like mess around and i did love that piece But we're sitting there.

46:49It's like, you know, there's a dude in MAGA hat. There's like talking and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I don't care. Like, it's like this doesn't bother me being in the same room as somebody who's got different opinions as me. I forgot about that because when you're on Twitter or Instagram or you're on anything, everyone's just yelling at each other. And I'm like, OK, we're in a restaurant. We're in a bar. And this is just this is civilization. We're just hanging out middle of the day, eating pizza. Nobody gives nobody. listener let's zoom out take a pause think about what jason just said next four years that's a great attitude i think that's thank you for saying that it's great we just you know that's the thing every rest i think restaurants and bars are sacred spaces to me uh i don't want to get into a debate with you i don't care i mean i i personally don't wear my politics on my sleeve or on my head but um i'm just like you know if you're in a restaurant with me you want to talk you want to shoot the shit we're gonna do it we'll talk about the knicks yeah bomb in the season i'm Sorry, my guy.

47:47We'll see what happens. We'll see. It's early on. It's early. All right. We have to talk a little bit about your taste work. And you have been writing about garlic. We're getting back to that too, right? We're getting back. You don't hate me. I don't hate you. There's no hate. No, we took a little break. You obviously had a lot going on with the book and with child rearing. But really, I love this series and we're going to continue working on it. Good Things with Garlic, a column right here. What draws you to garlic? I think it was just initially early on. it was a combination of things. I liked the smell of it.

48:19It connected me to my family, but I also, you know, I grew up around a lot of Italians and I go to their houses and I was like, oh, they're doing it different in a way, but it's still similar. It still reminds me of home. Like it just connects me to everything. Like you could have garlic in every culture. I feel like has figured out a way to use garlic the right way. Um, and if you haven't, then I'm, I don't, I don't want to eat your food really but um you know it's just it there's just everything it's it's so healthy for you it could really honestly like make or break a dish in a way that a love besides salt like you can over salt something right um for me personally my wife loves this about me i'm saying that sarcastically i would love to over garlic everything i make yeah um if you if you roast a head of garlic and you do this you know yeah peel it out the clothes i will eat the whole thing i am disgusting i just find it so uh and also it's funny because i i always think about how i've got this like connection back to like romania through my grandfather and i'm like what if there's like some like ingrained thought that i want to like make sure vampires don't bother me oh my gosh i don't know there's there's a lot of consciously yeah but but i mean garlic as an ingredient is is so universal and be it raw you know on like a boson table or like you know slowly roasted and melted onto garlic bread.

49:40I mean, it's such an entry point for you to write about global cuisine, so to speak, but also just like a love of it. I mean, it feels like it's something that can really make or break a dish as well. Yeah. The way it's prepared. It really can. And, you know, it's funny because, you know, you'll talk to somebody like an Italian-American who knows Italian culture and they'll be like, yeah, if you go to Italy, they're not really that into it. Like they're not into it like we are. but then like you know i was and i mean you you can obviously speak to this as uh some of your some of your writing is is you know you're the guy about this when it comes to this stuff but i was having drinks a year or two ago with my friend alexander chi and you know he started telling me i didn't know the whole like creation myth story of korea and he's like it's a bear who ate garlic and something and i was like i started crying i was drunk but you have a bear of garlic.

50:33And those are like my two favorite things. And I was like, we truly are all God's children. We all love garlic. And I forget the whole story and I feel really bad that I can't recall it right now, but it just moved me so much. And it really got me thinking. I'm like, you know, there's certain things in this world, like garlic is one of them. I think stock, chicken stock to me, it's like every culture figures out or chickens in general, but, um, you know, uh, And there are certain like dumplings, like we've all got dumplings and garlic is another thing. Like I think everybody kind of figures out how to use it in some way or another, even if it's not part of your regional cuisine.

51:14I mean I think food television as well you know in the late 90s certain individuals on TV would have would have garlic oh there was so much garlic so much garlic on any food TV it was like you know part of this mythology of like cooking more Mediterranean cooking better Italian and just like you know using and of course we fetishize over like the Marcella Hazan right you know multi clove 30 clove garlic recipe so I mean I do I definitely do and then dope recipe yeah and then you know it's like even like Bourdain like he was like don't smash the or you don't use a garlic uh smash yeah yeah you know it's like everybody don't bruise the garlic right everybody's got their opinions on it you know i remember the first time i think i i truly watched somebody with a knife like slicing something uh it wasn't the goodfellas thing it wasn't i did write about that but i watched somebody like slowly uh slicing a clove and i was like something so meditative about this and um yeah i mean like you know it doesn't have like when you slice in the an onion it has that kind of crisp and garlic doesn't really have that it has this sort of like it just has this sort of nice it kind of whispers yeah a bit yeah it's not like that crunch right great great call yeah it has i think like dookie was telling me when he was uh working at john george uh that was like one of the initial tasks for early cia externs oh was to like and like there was no bruising of the garlic for john George like it was like it was like put into like the mind it was canon at that restaurant you treat garlic with like delicate hands yeah and usually I would be like that's so hoity toy that's so silly but with garlic I'm like no that works yeah that smashing of it I never I never used that technique yeah smashing I don't like it it's um it's easy but I don't it's easy for sure it's easy lastly Jason you you've sold the novel and that's public it's been in PW and I want to know like it's been in the trades it's been in the trades right it's been in the trades tell us a little bit we'll have you back absolutely next fall when it comes out we'll talk about the novel but but really when you flip to fiction as a writer i mean is this like the greatest joy for you as a writer or the opposite oh it's the greatest joy i mean i hear that all the time i've always wanted that's what i wanted yeah when i start i always wanted to just be a writer that's it i don't you know i don't differentiate if you're a poet if you're a journalist if you're you're a writer.

53:39I have two sets of people in this world. There are writers and non-writers and you don't even have to be somebody who writes to be a writer. It's just to me, if you're curious, if you're, you know, looking around the world and be like, huh, why is this like this? What can I, how, how does, how does my imagination change what I'm seeing? You know, to me, there are literally just two kinds of people. And, um, I'm a writer through and through. And, you know, it's funny. My wife, you know, my wife, uh, she's the most supportive person. person I could ask for in the world. Um, but you know, she's not going to like give me like, she's not a yes man.

54:15She's not going to like tell me how great I am. And, uh, you know, I have to earn her respect and I appreciate that after 15 years, I'm still trying to earn her respect. Now I've got the daughter who I'm done. I'm looking at all the time. I'm like, you think I'm a clown. Um, and they just look at me while I walk in the room. They're just looking at me. I'm like, yeah, okay. I got to work for both of you now. But, um, my wife said something to me like a week or two ago that honestly I keep going back to. And she's like, It's really great to see what a craftsman you've become with your work as a writer.

54:43I don't like to say, I'm a craftsman, I'm an artist, but coming from my wife, who has seen me continuously try to get better as a writer, when I'm edited by you guys, I'm taking the notes in. I tell every writer, if you're not listening to your editors, get out of this. Writers listening out there, please. no the two things i tell everywhere it's the most simple it's like read as much as you can and keep reading don't stop it's like people are like how do you keep reading so much you know you just had a baby i'm like because i'm not watching tv or playing video games i don't know i make time to read the other thing is get your ass edited i probably would probably just edit how i just said that but you know what i'm saying like make sure you it doesn't matter if it's if it's a list it It doesn't matter what it is.

55:29Make sure you get edited a few times in your life. Because first of all, it knocks. I always say, you know, it's pretty, I've been punched a few times in my life. And I think it's for the better. It probably, it literally was knocking some sense to me. But I had editors kind of do the same thing. I've had editors teach me so much. Yeah, easy tricks, cheap tricks. And then, of course, just like straight work. I mean, like getting into like graph structure. I mean, there's lots of ways editors can inform writing. I totally agree with you. Absolutely. And when they tell you you're being a wuss writing like this, or they'll say like - I've never used the wuss note.

56:08Yeah, no, I wanted to say another word, but they didn't even say it. But it's like they'll tell you when you need to have more oomph for something. And you kind of pick these things up and you're like, okay, I can improve on this. And for me, my whole life, everything I do, I'm always trying to improve. I'm always trying to be better. And it just got to a point where as a writer, I was like, this is my life. I need to keep getting better and better and better and better. And I'm never going to be great. I'm never going to be the best. I'm never going to be. I'm always going to be me. And I'm always going to be trying to get better.

56:45And with fiction, it just kind of came to a point where I was like, OK, I have so many stories I want to tell and I don't know how to tell them through the nonfiction lens. And I just started writing this one down and it just it clicked. It was so it's a very personal kind of story in a lot of ways. But, yeah, it's it was the best experience. We'll get into the structure of it when you come on the show next fall. There's a lot of food stuff in it too. But I was going to ask you exactly that. I'd love to get one food scene broadly that you can share from the novel. Manny's Delicatessen in Chicago.

57:25Yes, my dad grew up going there. Really? Oh, did we talk about that? Yeah, yeah. Maybe he's from Rogers Park. Oh my God. So if he lives around the city, yeah. Oh, we got to talk about this because my family's from Rogers Park. Yeah, east or west? Oh, wait, hold on. No, they're from east. So they're from Kedzie and Toohey. Oh, yeah, Columbia and Sheridan. Oh, yeah, okay, yeah. So they're closer to the Skokie border. I always have to remember. Ballwell Pier is right off the block. Yeah. I always have to remember like my, they grew up, the Barnabys was right by them and the Candlelight was, Candlelight's still there.

57:54Yeah, totally. Terrific tavern style place. But, um. Lots of Chicago Doug listeners. Yeah, yeah. I love it. No, Manny's made a big, has a big place in there because every time I go in there, I'm just like, God, this is like the coolest mix of like, you know, low level politicians are in here. There's some guy who I'd seen. I remember, um, there was this car commercial that I was a kid when I was a kid and I saw one of the guys who was in the commercials. Like, Oh my God, it's as slow as the Ellison's Chevrolet guy. Um, you know, like I'd see Chicago bulls players in there. It was just, it's like a real legit place.

58:33And it's like a cafeteria. Yeah. You know, and it moves so quickly and everyone's so friendly. And so it also kind of ties into the area because Maxwell Street in Chicago, I always try to explain to people, like it's basically like the Lower East Side, except it was much smaller. And in the late 19th century, early 20th century, it was, you know, they call it was the Jewish ghetto. That's what they call it. It was the ghetto, but it was all Jewish. Uh, then, uh, the great migration started happening and it became more, uh, African-American eventually more Puerto Rican and, and, uh, Hispanic people started moving, but it's changed.

59:12And it's like always been this place where people have gone to, to sort of start out in Chicago. And so the food was just always such a part of it because I grew up going down there with my grandpa and he used to take me to the the the deli i think it was called ben's which in the blues brothers is they use the interior for the aretha franklin scene oh no way yeah the owner of it was a black guy who he started out working there as a kid when it was a kosher deli and he learned yiddish and he bought the place and he kept it a deli but he brought in like you know some like southern uh foods and it's just to me that is like that's america it's like you have all this this blending of stuff without becoming like fusion yeah and um yeah it's a hybrid yeah yeah but but yeah but uh manny's plays a part in it because uh i have a special i've been going to you have some scenes in manny's yes i have a big yeah and i've been going to manny's my whole life i love this jason i can't wait to read it what's the name what's the title of the book Kaplan's plot Kaplan's plot check it out next fall next fall on Flatiron nice well we'll have you back thank you on this is taste we ask guests about the discerning taste so to close this interview here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check are you ready yes the best fruit strawberries the worst vegetable uh stems there's not a vegetable I just hate stems if I'm if I'm picking if I'm I hate stems like like asparagus we're talking about the bottom I like I like the top part of it.

1:00:42I hate the bottom, but I'm talking like the stems on broccoli or if I've got parsley or those are herbs, but I'll pick it off. Yeah. I'm a freak. You're not a fan of the stem. The best dessert? Baklava. Yes. Is there a place that you go for baklava? I have been going everywhere for baklava. Recently, there is a new on Vanderbilt. I can't remember the name. It's a Yemen cafe, Yemenite cafe, and they in-house baklava. It's insane. Sofro's got good one. There's actually a Sephardic bakery that I'm going to be checking out soon that a few friends have told me, I think on Ocean Avenue, that I've had multiple people from multiple walks of life, Jews, Muslims.

1:01:30They've all told me this is the best baklava. Oh, Greek guy also told me. Oh, Greek guy. You got the trifecta. Yeah, Greek guy. All right. All right. All right. love that choice your favorite city outside america to visit for food i'm basic it's gonna be paris or tokyo not basic i know like the right answers well i feel like it's so easy to be like but like to me paris is like i love i love french food um i love i love moroccan food and i haven't been to morocco and the couscous in in paris oh yeah next level yeah your favorite cookbook of all time uh this is gonna be it's gonna i love the first joe beef cookbook yeah because again I love the French stuff I love bistro food I love but I also love Quebecois culture I love French Canadian stuff I love and I always loved you know what they were doing I was just like this is a restaurant for me oh yeah the style of service just like the specials the sugar shacks oh yeah it's all and it's just like this is food to kill yourself on it's so good but it's so delicious and I thought they did such a fun job with it you know obviously I love like Julia Child I've cooked like two things you know from the uh mastering the french art of cooking or whatever you know the joe beef one i've actually used and uh that's nice i just i love the vibe and i love the story i love that that book is the book is available check it out uh favorite recent cookbook discovery i haven't used anything in it but there is a cookbook that somebody got me it's like the cooking according to colombo i think i think i forget what it is i've been looking through and i'm like this is fascinating i don't understand it but i guess like all the recipes the the character yes colombo yeah colombo for younger listeners yeah the the kids like colombo i've been peter falk is big with the kids all right out but um i it's all the recipes coordinate to like people who are guest stars on it so i remember off the top of my head there's like johnny cash's chili recipe like there's like stuff like that like all the stars had recipes wow yeah i love that so that's that's that's a weird enough one that i i like it last one your favorite sandwich the sandwich that is closest to you when you need a sandwich is my favorite sandwich no but um the tuna melt if it's done right a bad tuna melt will ruin your we'll give you six months off the tuna melt if you get a bad tuna melt yeah yeah it will give you a lot of you will lose some weight a good tuna melt is just heavenly um you know there's a lot of other sandwiches but to me it's like when you've got when you got a good tuna melt that's a lot of these village you go to right I go to a couple spots in East Village, but to me it's the whitefish melt at B &H.

1:04:07Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That's like God level, but it's only they can do that. I've tried making whitefish melts at home and I'm like, how do they do it? But yeah, a good tuna melt. You can get pretty much any city. There's a place with a good tuna melt. Hopefully. If you find that place, hold it close. Hold it close. Jason Diamond, thank you so much for joining. This is Taste. Thanks, Matt.

1:04:39Vivian Song, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you doing today? Very good. Thanks for having me. Well, I loved your piece in the New York Times. It really struck me because it really touches a topic we talk about a lot on the show. It's coffee. It's specialty coffee, third wave coffee. You can call it many things. but how the coffee industry is changing the way we drink coffee in these great cities around the world. So before we get to your great story and the coffee scene in Paris and some of these tensions there, I'd love to just get your take. You know, what are you enjoying in Paris restaurant-wise?

1:05:18Well, I'll share three addresses. I recently had a really great dining experience at a Filipino restaurant called Reina in the 11th arrondissement. And it's handled by a chef called Erica Paredes, who started her food career hosting pop-up dinners in her home. And the menu changes, but there are two standout dishes that I recommend. There are permanent fixtures. There's the Hainan burrata, which is topped with cake at manis, ginger and chilies. And then there's a fried chicken. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's probably one of the best fried chickens that I've had in Paris. What a great statement.

1:05:57I love that. It's a big thing. It's a big statement that I'm making, especially. But I'm big on my fried chicken. And it's glazed in an adobo sauce, but it's still really incredibly crispy. So I really enjoyed that. A second address I enjoyed was called Fugazi. It's also in the 11th. And it's a neighborhood restaurant that serves bisturinomic fare. And it's just everything was really well executed, not pretentious. I had Gougere with Guanciale and Aged Conte, which was like bliss in a bite. and then there's another restaurant fellows and it's a fresh pasta place and it's plant-based and this place had a lot of it kind of went viral on social media and I'm always very wary and skeptical but this place lived up to the hype for me it's um I had a pappardelle with mushroom ragu and the fun part is everyone gets like a personal cheese grinder and a very generous hunk of cheese.

1:06:56So yeah, that was a fun address as well. Well, that's really interesting. So it is a hunk of plant-based cheese, I would imagine, then, if it's plant-based. Is there a bit of a movement happening in Paris with plant-based dining? Absolutely, yeah. In the last few years, we've seen a lot of really great plant-based vegan places pop up, be it bakeries, be it restaurants, be it fast street food. It's really exciting to see. Yeah. Very cool. Well, let's talk about coffee. I really enjoyed your reporting. And, you know, first off, I'd like to hear about this tension that you're reporting on and writing about, you know, this idea of the old school cafe, the cafe we think about when we think about Paris in the 20s and this long history.

1:07:42With the modern barista, there is a tension that you really tapped into in this article? I'd like to go into it by saying that I don't know if I would really characterize it as a rivalry between the two. But as you mentioned, there is a tension. And the central idea I was trying to convey was that the explosion of coffee houses that we're seeing in Paris over the last few years is changing cafe culture in the French capital. And this is especially true of younger generations or what one coffee shop owner called coffee natives, you know, Gen Z's who've never known life without latte art. No, I'll follow up and just ask, you know, let's let's talk a little bit about the history of third wave coffee, especially coffee entering Paris.

1:08:25You know, when did when did Paris start to start to actually see some of these shops pull up that, you know, we're doing V60 pour overs where we're thinking about, you know, origin with the roasting. It wasn't the typical espresso shot or, you know, the Americano that you'd find in these in these historical cafes. Exactly. So this we can kind of trace this back to maybe around 20 to around 2010. This is where we really saw the arrival of these third wave coffee shops. And they came courtesy or via expats, you know, American, Australian, New Zealand expats and also well-traveled French entrepreneurs who were just sick of seeing of.

1:09:07this terrible coffee, you know, and they recognized an opportunity to bring a tourisanal coffee to Paris. Previously, they, you know, I guess the French didn't really question. They were used to this really burnt, bitter, astringent espresso shot. But they remained quite niche for a while, I would say, and were really popular among expats and tourists from countries desperate for good coffee. But then I think in the post-pandemic years is where we've really seen an explosion. And, you know, there's a new coffee shop opening every week and I cannot keep up. And in this wave, what we're seeing is we're seeing different trends.

1:09:50So the business model is very different. So in the early years, the shops were mostly sit-in. Many now are takeaway only. And that's because, you know, it offers bigger margins for these entrepreneurs. So it's smart business move. Unlike the first generation shops, many are also banning laptops. Aesthetics are a huge part of their appeal in this new generation. We're also seeing new subcategories. We're seeing specialty drink menus we've never seen before. You know, at one cafe called Buddy Buddy, drinks are based on nut butters, which is, you know, pretty interesting for us. You have hybrid spaces that are part vintage shop, part bookstore and coffee shops.

1:10:34Yeah, I really recognize this boom. And it's cool that you can articulate the time period about this post-pandemic moment for specialty coffee. I do want to go back in time a little bit and talk about Paris's long tradition of the cafe culture. I mean, they really established it around the world. And while the coffee served at these cafes certainly wouldn't pass muster at a competition or even for most specialty coffee drinkers, and I recognize that most of it was espresso-based and not of the highest quality beans, they still have an important role in Parisian culture. But I want to get a sense from you about what it's like to be in these classic cafes today, are they full of old timers and, you know, tourists looking for that old, you know, point of view or is it slightly different?

1:11:30I wouldn't say it's gotten there quite yet. Thankfully, it's still we're still seeing a good mix. There are a lot of tourists looking for that romanticized, you know, vision, romanticized, living out that scenario of sitting on a cafe, terrorists watching the world go by, people watching, because it really is like a national pastime here. But for now, it's still a good mix. It's still a good mix of young, old, and tourists. However, the fear is that they will graduate these coffee shops, these are specialty coffee shops that are very Anglophone imported. There's nothing French about these new coffee shops.

1:12:11These places are going to supplant the cafes and bistros as the primary meeting place. You know, in sociology, they call it the third place, you know, the place outside work and home where you go to socialize to meet friends. And traditionally, historically, cafes and bistros served as this default meeting place. Oh, I'm going to meet a friend for a drink. We're going to go to a cafe. Now, the fear is that, you know, it's not I don't it's not an immediate threat. However, gradually with younger generations, the fear is that because we're seeing it now, their default meeting place will become the coffee shop.

1:12:51So it's not an immediate threat. I wouldn't say it's an immediate threat. But in the story, I was kind of forecasting. Yeah, no, it's really articulate. You definitely have a bit of read the tea leaves, pun intended, a little bit. And I have to ask, you interview a lot of folks who still hang out at the cafes and many Parisians still make a part of their daily life. and you really get into the familiarity between the owners of the cafes and the patrons. What did you learn in speaking with some of these regulars at the cafes? Are they aware of this rapid change or are they kind of living in their own worlds?

1:13:29Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. Two things. One of the people I interviewed was a researcher. Her name is Eve Batman. Her morning ritual is very unusual. before work every day, she goes to her local cafe where she meets up with like 15 of her friends. These are all people she's met as just being a regular at this cafe to, you know, go for her morning coffee. Because traditionally that's before we had Nespresso at home coffee machines, before we had Starbucks, people would go to their downstairs cafe to get their caffeine fix before work, right? So she goes to this cafe every morning at around 8.30 where she meets up with friends.

1:14:11They're only there for about 15 minutes, but they chit chat together. She doesn't. And the funny part is she doesn't drink coffee. She orders a Perrier. She orders because she can't drink the coffee anymore. Why is that? Because she discovered what good coffee really tastes like. So then after she chit chats with these friends that she's made over the years, and this is what's interesting, is that it's a very mixed group. You have, as she said, there's street cleaners. She works, she's a researcher at a think tank. There are academics, salespeople, people who work at the Louvre or at Chanel. And they all gather around the zinc bar just to chat for 15 minutes to get their socialization in the morning.

1:14:52That's her daily ritual for them, which I thought is so beautiful, you know? But then after that, so she spends 15 minutes there chit-chatting. Then she goes towards heads down to down to the center of Paris where she works. And then she'll go into an actual coffee shop where she'll get her real cafe to power her through the day. What an amazing example of how someone can live this really full life without compromise and still remain have these traditions. I love this this this person. She's so she seems really cool. Oh, she was. I loved speaking with her. We spoke for like an hour and a half and it was just it was it was an excited, exciting conversation because I was first of all, it was it was it was gold as a journalist to find somebody like that.

1:15:39I had reached out to her as the researcher for a paper on the reinvention of French coffee shop, cafe culture. But it turns out that she lives it. Wow. So she's doing some academic research about coffee, too. I love that. That's a great source. what's the feedback been from the piece you know the new york times obviously has such a wide reach and i'm sure i don't know i'm not sure if you're reading the comments but i'm sure you you got some feedback i do as you should um i i did read the comments and you know some some of them were uh not happy but some of them made some really good points um i don't i should call we should call up the piece but um one that i found kind of amusing um one of the later comments it was that um i kind of called me out for um depicting um younger generations as uh in a negative way but that's not that wasn't my intention at all um you know they were saying uh uh if it were turned the other way around um of a gen z complaining about the coffee consumption habits of a boomer or a Gen Xer, there'd be outrage, which I found was, you know, I can, I can see how it would be, I guess I can see how it would have been read that way, but you know, it was an indictment of coffee shops or of younger generations.

1:16:56It was really meant to just portray, you know, document what's happening. The fact that every, things are shifting. Yeah. I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna always have feedback from both sides and I disagree. I think you really did capture both sides very evenly. And, and like, I don't think you trivialize the younger generation at all. I think it's just definitely the way different generations consume coffee and it's not meant to be a caricature by any means. Exactly. That's what I hoped. That's what I hoped people would take away. But no, overall, you know, if it gets people talking, that's great, you know.

1:17:31And as the researcher I spoke to, you know, she wants the best of both worlds. And that's kind of what I want, too. I love coffee shops. I love good coffee just as anybody else does. But I also love the cafe experience. You know, even after 15 years of living in the city, I love hitting up, you know, a random cafe just to sit, you know, read, daydream, speak with friends. I love the best of both worlds. Well, I have to ask you, Vivian, where are you drinking coffee yourself personally in Paris? You know, either the third wave shops or the classic cafes? I like Kutum Cafe. They were part of the first wave.

1:18:14And I really like their coffee because it's really well balanced and smooth. And then I also like Cafe Inoman, which is in the 11th. And it's a very low key neighborhood coffee shop for locals. It's not pretentious. You're not going to see it on social media. And that's just what I like. But the coffee there really goes down smooth. And I like it because there's two spaces. The front space is reserved for people to just drink, read, chat. But then there's a small space at the back that is laptop friendly. So they really know how to cater to both consumers. Well, I love that. It sounds like the 11th is where it's at.

1:18:53You brought it up. I know. Sorry, I didn't mean to. No, no. It wasn't intentional, but yeah. No, I'll take that advice. And I just want to close. And I have to ask you, you live in Paris 15 years, and you report on the city, you know, what are Americans maybe missing when they're visiting Paris? I know many listeners are planning possible summer trips to Paris and it's such a great city to visit for so many reasons. But what's like your insight on what Americans can maybe do that they're missing out on? Well, I guess I'll put this in the context of food as this is, you know, a podcast about the way we eat and food.

1:19:33But I would say don't restrict yourself to just French, classic French restaurants. Of course, you're going to want to come here and go do a classic French bistro. But there are so many exciting restaurants that are offering unique cooking and foods that you just won't find in the world because it's a mash. It's French-Korean, French-Japanese, French-Lebanese. So I would really encourage people to kind of be open minded about trying international cuisines when they're in Paris and not just hit up the classics. And then I'm biased, but I'm going to say for repeat visitors who know the city well to venture to the 19th, which is the northeast part of Paris.

1:20:16It's where I live. And, you know, it's a really great slice of Parisian life that's far from the tourist crowds. It's not your postcard picture, Paris, so don't expect that. But you have Bichon-Mont Park, which is one of the most dramatic parks in the city with rushing waterfalls, a grotto, a suspension bridge. And you have Pâle de la Villette, which hosts an open air cinema in the summer. And a really nice waterway where you can hire out an electric boat. You don't need a license or anything and just, you know, amble up the waterway in the summer under some with a nice bottle of wine and baguette.

1:20:57It's gold. Sounds incredible. I need to go to the 19th. I've never been to that part. And Vivian Song, what a great conversation and what terrific reporting in New York Times. Love the story. I'm going to link to the show notes. Please read it. Thank you so much for joining our show. Thank you so much. It was fun. Thanks, Matt.

1:21:17This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.