542: New York Times Columnist Eric Kim Digs into Chicago Pizza, Jajangmyeon, and Softboy Foods

26:16And then there used to be seats there. And it's, I like, I think that nostalgia is really special when you can tap into it and have a primary source, you know, when you can find that. And only with American food can you really do that. It's interesting. I agree. And I love that cheesecake. I feel I've spent plenty of time at Junior's in Brooklyn. Great club sandwich. And then you got to admit it's like one of the better cheesecakes you're going to find. Yeah, it's a good cheesecake. I think one thing people really need to know about, especially that Junior's cheesecake, is it's meant to be eaten at room temp.

26:44Like you really need to let it sit up. But, oh, that's that's the other thing. These recipes, it really that story really started with the recipe. I made the Junior's cheesecake recipe at home and it just felt so good. It seems simple, but it's that first step of beating the cornstarch into the cream cheese and almost making like a roux of sorts. And then when you add the other three blocks of cream cheese, that resultant texture is just the smoothest, creamiest thing you've ever done. And there's like no air bubbles, but it's really fluffy and light. And I don't know. I was just amazed that I personally could make such a good cheesecake from scratch.

27:25And so I like to share that with people. When I have those wins in the kitchen, that's why I'm coming to NYT Cooking with a recipe to be like, oh, my God, I found something really great. You found the hack. I mean, I talked to David Leibowitz and I've talked to a couple other overseas American chefs and they've all coveted Philadelphia. Yeah, they miss it. They can't find it in Paris and Spain. And it's like they just the cheesecake doesn't hit the same. Yeah. I heard that there are some countries that really rely on and value Philadelphia cream cheese, so they have it. But it is interesting to see which ones don't.

27:59In fact, cream cheese was sort of an accident after that dairyman was trying to make, I can't pronounce this, but Neufthel. Neufthel, okay. Neufthel, that French style cheese, which is, so anyway, it's actually kind of related. Well, last spring you headed to Chicago and you spent some serious time in Chicago enjoying pizza. You unlocked some things. I want to have a broad conversation about Chicago pizza for you. I love that we're going here. We're going there. And you had talked about the deep dish in your writing, but I think you dabbled with Tavern a little bit. But when you ended up on a recipe that was inspired by your Chicago visits and the reporting you did, what did you find out?

28:44Oh, man, it was fun. That story, I really lived it for months before it came out. Okay, what did I find? It was, I found the thing, a recipe that was the closest to the original, like the platonic source. And, and, and I made it at home and it was really delicious. And contrary to popular belief, it wasn't this like rich heavy thing. It was, it's like this biscuity dough, you know, this biscuity base. and the tomato sauce is really fresh and clean and kind of like a nice, you know, margarita. And then it's really good with sausage. And, you know, what was really special about that story was, again, like the cheesecake, all the primary sources are still around and they were there when it was first happening.

29:29And so I made pizza with Mark Malnati, you know, and he, I watched him. Of Lou Malnati's. Of Lou Malnati's pizza, yeah. And, you know, and his, you know, I feel like that family was really, you know, was close to the original. And I don't want to go like too much into the lore and stuff because it's, you can read about it. But it's, what was really special to find was there were so many people out there, deep dish pizza, you know, fanatics or historians. people who just really dedicate their lives to kind of nailing down that history because so much of that history just is just word of mouth it's like you know like I was saying before it's it's kind of like that with American food it's if you can say that you invented it then you're gonna get a lot of tourists to come to your place I appreciate that story because I I feel like I really found as close to the truth as I could and then I laid it out in history and Peter Regas is someone who really helped me a lot because he sort of found an original newspaper clipping that was like the closest thing to the original from uno and i think um what and what's special about that is you get to ask the descendants to describe their experience and it's sort of like a game of i don't know it's sort of like a multi-plot novel or a multi-plot film where you have all the different strings and then when you piece them all together you get the truth and i guess that's what reporting is but i i was really excited personally that i i was able to find people who could um sort of confirm that oh yeah that is kind of close to the one original because my dad used to work there with him and you know you know but we put a little bit of you know some people put like yellow dye in theirs and some people do like different things but that biscuity texture tracking down that biscuity dough um which is i think is closest to the original that was like sort of my ding-ding moment but hey I have to say what that piece came out and I'm not sure how many people read it yeah and I haven't sometimes but it made me wonder like you know it's we have an obsession and it doesn't mean that other people will share that I mean we have an obsession with with with restaurant pizzas and like rain them and right and but when you come down to it when we're talking about like the texture of the dough I think most people with Chicago pie, they're talking about the structure and the pan size, not the texture of the dough.

31:57Fully agree that a biscuit is a great way to describe it. I've always thought there was maybe lard in there, but it always felt like there was something that hearkened to a Southern American biscuit more than like the New York style, like the dry or even Detroit style with the Frico crust and a little bit of cheese in there. The Chicago pie is definitively, the deep dish that is, is definitively about the doughy crust. Yeah. And it's polarizing. It's polarizing. I mean, you know, a lot of people, modern people love Pequod's, which is this whole other, you know, category style. But the pan pizza, you know.

32:32Yeah. But I have to say it was this moment when Mark Malnati kind of pulled that, he like really knows that dough so well. And he's so proud of that dough. It's like, you know, the dough that was passed down to him. and he took a piece of the raw dough and he ate it and then he told me to eat it and I was like, oh, okay. So I ate the raw dough and it was like a shot of alcohol. It was just so fermented and it tasted like, you know, when you get those grocery store or Pillsbury biscuits in the tube. In the tube that you crack, you're like, it's going to blow up again. Yeah, it was kind of similar to that and not in a really delicious way.

33:13And that itself came from a very specific time in American history as well. So it's like it's interesting to when you have those reference points, they help you understand the chemical makeup of something. And I like I like that cooking is the way to enter that conversation and to to kind of get really dorky about something like deep dish pizza. Yeah. Is there a topic like deep dish pizza that you're thinking about right now that you're doing a little investigation? I think my goal this year is to just make life easier for myself and write delicious recipes. But I am finishing up a video. It's a recipe quest episode on our YouTube channel, one of my shows on there.

33:56And it's jjajangmyeon. You're going to like this. Oh, my God. We've been talking about this. Yeah, yeah, we have. Yeah, you helped me start the journey. Maybe a year ago. Yeah, right. Okay, so we had jjajangmyeon for dinner once. After that, I ate at six different places in Jersey, Queens, or maybe nine different places. Jersey, Queens, Manhattan. I don't know if there's really great jajangmyeon in Brooklyn. I'm sure there is. Someone tell me. But it was really fun to find the, again, family businesses, children now who are the ones cooking the jajangmyeon. Because I wanted to find a good New York City, New York metro area jajangmyeon.

34:34You know, there's these Korean black bean noodles that sometimes I forget about, to be honest. But every time I eat them, I'm like, this is like my top. This is like in my top five favorite, the most delicious. I mean, the root of pork is like, yeah, like, yeah, I like the porkier ones. Me too. Yeah. And but it was really fun to this thing that I've been eating my whole life. And to be honest, have created recipes for finally it felt good to just have that much data. having interviewed all those people and eaten those bowls and learned what makes a really good judgment. And one of the key things is that you really have to focus on the broth, like making sure the broth before it becomes a thickened sauce, gravy, making that broth really flavorful.

35:17And it's every time I think that's my main takeaway culinarily from last year. I just learned so much about the power of cooking with water and boiling and steaming. and it's like the gentler cooking, the extraction of flavor into liquid. That's something that, it's the kind of flavor, like in a cookpap, that makes you go, it's like. Yeah, it's a puckering of the lips. Yeah, the glutamates are popping. The glutamates are popping and it's like, it's been extracted through that soft cooking technique. Great call. I bet, you know, as an aside, in Brooklyn, I bet, I bet sicko, the crew in sicko does, does judge it.

35:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and Sobe. Oh. I feel that, yeah. That's a good idea. I feel she's doing it. But, but, It's such a great dish to really dig into. And we haven't talked a lot about Korean food. You mentioned a little bit at the top. It was intentional. I want you're, of course, known for Korean cooking with your cookbook, but you report across the broad spectrum of food. But I do want to ask you just broadly about Korean food right now. I mean, you're you're real. You're tapped in. You have a lot of thoughts and you've traveled extensively for it. But broadly, what's exciting you about this time when Korean food is being heralded in the fine dining spaces?

36:31There's incredible middle ground, like with the coats of the world. And then, of course, there's so many new openings in all phases of Korean, all styles of restaurants. There's so much going on right now. And how do you, Eric, wrap your head around this exciting moment? Yeah, the mainstreaming of Korean food, especially since we first talked before Korean American came out. I feel like as you were talking, I was like, you're right, it has been amazing. But I do think maybe I take it for granted now. I'm a little bit spoiled. Same. There's such great Korean food all over New York City, right? And I do love talking about it because it's a different conversation every week.

37:14Going on tour with you for Korea World definitely kind of showed me some neat things. Okay. I think my, man, this will always be my hill to die on. I really love seeing Korean Americans just embracing their individuality. I have to say I'm just going to go here because it's a theme and the way I've processed hate from my own community. It's really evolved, but the hate has not changed. I think I think I get less of it now that I'm more established. But I think when I first started writing about Korean food, I wrote a kimchi piece for The New York Times. From that moment on, you know, I would get I would get a lot of authenticity gatekeepers.

38:00And after four years of that, and even yesterday before I had to go on the Today Show to talk about my kimchi mandu, you know, trying to wake up, get in the zone. The first thing I read on my phone is this hate message from someone who's like, oh, my God, your cookpap is such a shitty, like, no Korean would do this. No Korean would put sundried tomatoes on that. Oh, man, I'm sorry. That's such a bummer. Yeah, it's a bummer. I hate hearing that. And I got to go to the office and, you know, kind of whine about it to my colleagues. And Priya Krishna understands this from her own community. But it's this thing where after four years, I understand it.

38:32I understand the psychology of that. It's like I've explained it many times, but it's the scarcity mindset. You haven't seen yourself represented on the page. But now that we finally get to be represented in a variety of ways, have five dumplings and not just one dumpling. Do you know what I'm saying? I think it's nice to really celebrate people who are being innovative. And I wasn't trying to be innovative with my cookpap. It's just I have this, my first column for the magazine was this soup rice where the broth is made with ingredients I could find near me where I live in Brooklyn. And when I was developing that recipe, I was really stressed shopping for, you know, the kombu and the anchovies.

39:10I couldn't find them. And I actually ran into Ham L. Whaley, one of my colleagues. I was like, hey, he caught me when I was making this frowny face. And he was like, what's wrong? I was like, I can't find kombu near us. What is going on? It's not even at Tenichimar or whatever. And he was like, oh, what if you try dashi powder? And I was like, I love dashi powder, but Genevieve won't let me, which is good because I landed on sun-dried tomatoes. I had some dried sun-dried tomatoes. And I just loved it. It's something I learned from Rachel Koo. I believe she's Chinese-British. But she's wonderful, right?

39:49And she made like a kasule soup back in the day with sun-dried tomatoes and dried shiitakes as like an umami lender. And I think I loved this idea of turning my red kongnamu kukbap into an even redder thing that had the depth of a sun-dried tomato that really did take the place well of kombu. Yeah, I could see a kongnu gookbop recipe being a polarizing recipe because, you know, there's folks who read the Times who have three generations of these gookbops. And that scarcity mindset is real. And you've really laid it out beautifully about why it happens. So I got to empathize with some of the critics because they don't know any better.

40:36Yeah, I do empathize with them. Three generations of recipes handed down. now who's this who's this guy who's this young kid right who's like messing up my culture but the young kid who has like a new york times best-selling book and and puts in the time and the work as we've established so yeah i i recognize your very tricky place to be in eric and i and i thanks you seem to be handling it well thanks it's sort of like a self-flagellating like i'm pretty masochistic i i feel like every january i do a korean soup and every january i get hate for it and I do it for a reason because I love it but I also love, I think I'm just really trying to train people to get out of their you know that kind of construct that Korean people can only be one thing and that Korean food can only be one thing.

41:27It's so stupid. Going on tour with you and sharing stages and having all of your fans come up, there's so much love for what you do and the innovation you bring and just putting sundered tomatoes into his stock is that's just some really smart recipe development it's not a big deal right it shouldn't be like it all right it shouldn't be something that you write in like a hate hate mail about but i guess people have time people project and i know that now as someone who who himself is i just i joke to everyone that now i'm therapized so i'm above yeah right on i like to hear that well this isn't food related but you got to do a media diet for the times and i was looking at it last night and and i saw this beautiful reference that we have never talked about on the show and it's it's one of my my all-time favorites you are a lover of bojack horseman i am and and like please indulge us listener i just want to share the mic well let's just remind folks why is this why is this show so great wow what a great show okay i'm gonna try to make this quick.

42:28I think it's that I personally just enjoy binging it. I think I can have it on in the background, not even watch it and just chuckle on the side because every joke is so sharp. The writing is so sharp that you can listen to the show. That's why it's special, I think. I also just really, it's one of those shows that I think it's about depression and the creative process, at least the first few seasons, or the whole show, to be honest. But we enter the show with this washed-up star, which I feel like sometimes. But, you know, a washed-up star who has to write a memoir to save a publishing house called Penguin.

43:09Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the editor is a penguin. And the show is obviously all animals. All animals. And, of course, the staff are a bunch of different penguins. Right. And then, but what's really, I like the way they address the darkness and the way they address mental health. And as I, you know, throughout my 20s was going through a lot of mental health issues. And, you know, certainly still in my early 30s. I sort of was, I like that the show just, you know, addressed it head on. And I think it helped me process these feelings that I didn't understand. And I also just love that, I love Amy Sedaris' character, Princess Carolyn.

43:48Princess Carolyn. because Princess Caroline is a cat who wears this adorable skirt, and she's Bojack Horseman's literary agent, or just agent, I think. And my agent's name is Kitty and is exactly like that character. And every time, I share the same agent as Ham and Sola, and I texted them the other day a picture of Princess Caroline, and I was like, isn't this Kitty? And Kitty thought that was really funny, too. Our agent's name is Kitty. Anyway, I like that show because it's, I think it teaches me, it's almost like I'm studying writing and beats. And not that I really am interested in being a TV writer or anything, but it's really helpful for me to really get inspiration from other forms of genre.

44:33So I really, I like that show for that reason. I just think it's perfectly written. Yeah, it's a beautiful show written well. Ending worked for me. Yeah. Yeah, me too. What did you like about it? I mean, I liked. We've never talked about this show. I mean, I liked the comment on Hollywood. Yes. I thought that was, you know, in this world of entourage, which has a certain portrayal of Hollywood celebrity culture. Yes. This was like the opposite. And the BoJack characters written, as you said really well, it's absolutely about depression and dealing with trauma as well. Yeah, you're right. You know, there's a lot of that that happened to that character through his career, the horse's career.

45:13Yeah. and just like you know certainly not just one-liners and I mean mr. peanut butter is one of the best read characters yeah I love those in my life you have a you have a mr. I've referred to people as mr. peanut butter you know we need a mr. peanut butter like absolutely compliment by a golden retriever of course my golden retriever you know that show too it's also I feel like it it's about fame and it addresses it in a funny way but it's man that it's i think it's a i think when people are obsessed with fame and hollywood and it seems like it has nothing to do with them or a regular person or an everyday person but i i think it shows human behavior and human psychology and i think when i don't know i'm not i'm not trying to put myself in bojack's shoes and um he has like alcohol problems and a lot of other issues but I feel like I really I really I was noticing things like that when when my book came out and when I joined the times and when people started recognizing me on the street I think I was not equipped I didn't like understand what was going on but then that show kind of put it into light and gave me a way to sort of wrap my head around it and and find the humor in it and and find the joy in it and the beauty in it and also just how to navigate the 2020s.

46:33It's a crazy time to be on the internet. Everyone is famous, and it's weird to live in New York City where everyone is famous. At least in their own story. Yes, in their own story. Yeah, in their own head. Oh, such an interesting topic. We'll have to tap into another episode. I think being the center of your movie is quite an instinct of a younger generation. Of a younger generation. For good or for bad. A lot of cool things coming out of that. Man, I went too long on that one. I love it. Let's talk about future projects. I know a lot because you're publishing here at Crown, and I'm so excited about what you're working on.

47:06I will let you share what you want, because I know there's projects that are coming out sooner than others. For fans of Korean American, there's definitely some more cooking. There's also a lot of writing. We're fans of your New York Times column. So I think there's something for fans of both of your careers, your writing, your literary career, and your recipe career. What do you want to say? I want to say that first it's going to be a collection of essays and slated to come out 2026. And then we're working on a cookbook that will be out 2028. So right now all my energy is on the collection of essays because it is it's really coming off the tail end of Korean American.

47:47Not just the the narrative in that book itself where I drive away from my mom's house waving bye to her. It's like, I think this next book starts on that drive from Georgia to New York. And so it kind of addresses my 20s and my life in New York and all the many careers and past lives I've had. I think, I mean, we were just talking about being the famous person in your own story, but that's kind of what a memoir is. That's what a memoir is. A memoir is this. Yeah. Yeah, and I think for me, I was just going through so many life changes. And I have to say, when your social circle also goes from 10 to like 200 ,000 or whatever, it really makes a person go crazy.

48:33And I kind of went a little crazy. I was really depressed last year. And I think this book is about how I came to unknot all of that, all of those changes in my life. And I just went through so many weird things, so many interesting life experiences and so many failures and so many past careers that didn't work out. Like I was trying to be a pop star in my teens. You know, I was like playing shows around the city. And meanwhile, on the side, my childhood friend Eric Nam was auditioning for K-pop, you know, shows. And he became a famous K-pop star. He became very famous, Eric Nam. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

49:11So there's like an essay about like the Eric's. And then there's another kind of career, which was academia. I was trying to be a professor. And I was in my early 20s. I never had a real job. I didn't know how to talk. That's the irony of my life right now. I talk a lot. And I just froze in an exam. And that essay about that exam room and kind of the racism I experienced there got me my book deal. So I really, I'm excited to tell these stories because they tell, I think they tell really universal stories that a lot of people have been through. And I'm excited to share it because I think when I first started imagining this book, I was like, oh, it's going to be a tell-all.

49:51I'm going to cancel everyone. Oh, boy. And it was like that. But now it's more like, whoa, how did I get through it? Because this is more of a, these were dark times. And I want to help people who go through these things because everyone, because this is just the world we live in. And also some of the stories are really delightful. They're just the weird quirky things that happen to you when you're traveling all the time. And I, sorry, I could talk about it forever. I need to write the book. Yeah, yeah, the book will be out and we'll have you back, of course, next year when it's out. And I'm thrilled for you.

50:21And just hearing you speak just in this time in the studio, it's obvious that you think through things before you speak. You obviously think before you write. And it's such a unique approach to the end result, which is right now, Stafford at the New York Times, like a unique trajectory, I'll say, approach and trajectory it's definitely a you know a unique very very specific experience I I think my main joy right now is finding kind of peace in the the creative process I there's there's always so much anxiety doing every little thing every little project like Korean American give me so much anxiety yeah wow just and but then now I now I feel like I I got everything I've ever wanted like dreams have come true and i wanted to be in a place where i could accept all that and just put out good work and just like i don't know drown out the rest and i just want to make i just want to make good things you know i think you are thanks my friend eric on this is taste we ask guests about the discerning taste so to close this interview here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check you've taken this a few times but i know these answers change i know these answers change with the seasons they do are you ready i'm ready the best fruit apple okay what apple we're at what state washington state west michigan upstate new york i'm sorry i like this one apple called wine sap it's um it's from one of my friend colleagues uh husband's orchard i think they sell them at the four green farmers yeah yeah they're just really um really tart and sweet and i've been allergic to apples until very recently oh wow yeah so that's why that The apple is just a perfect fruit to me now.

52:06The worst vegetable. Fiddlehead ferns? Yeah. Did I say that before? No, I mean, it just tastes like dirt. It does taste like dirt and nothing at the same time. I hate them, but I would like someone to make them well and serve them to me. Because I'm sure there's something in them that's special, but I can't find it. That small window in March when they're in season. Yeah, they're cute. They are very cute. They're aesthetically pleasing for sure. Yeah, right. The best dessert. Chocolate chip cookie. That's my writer day. If I were leaving this earth, that would be my last little bite of food. Have you done a recipe that you're feeling really good about?

52:45Yeah. It's one of those things. It's kind of like the milk bread for Korean American. It's this thing I just obsess over and pretend I'm not done with. But the chocolate chip cookie is so hard. It goes in so many directions. I have like four different recipes and I have to pick one to put in the next book. But I'm going to have a chocolate chip cookie for sure. I know everyone makes the milk bread recipe from Korean American. I make the butter mochi with black sesame. Yeah, I know you do. I've made that like seven or eight times. I know. You know what's funny? It's such a good recipe. We first talked about it in like 2021.

53:13I know. And then it became like the recipe that you really like. And then I did black sesame rice crispy trees after that, and that became a thing that people like. So I think people like black sesame. Those black sesame rice crispy trees, they show up at our year-end holiday competition. Competition. You guys have like a cookie competition. Yeah, yeah. Nice. I've heard that. A lot of people make the gochardine cookies too. You know what's really fun? I actually first came up with that at my Food Network when I worked at Food Network back in the day. I think I was like 19 or something. I made a black sesame crispy treat, but I used black food dye, so it's kind of gross.

53:49But I had that idea back then, and it didn't become a full recipe until my 30s. It's funny. Your pizza recipes, by the way, in Korean American slept on. I love that. Yeah, thanks. The corn one, maybe? Yeah, the corn one, yeah. Oh, thanks. I've made that a few times, too. I like that one. I cook from the book. It's got some splatters on it. A few more. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? My only answer is, like, I feel, like, basic or something, because everyone's going to Japan right now, but Kyoto or Osaka? I might say Osaka because I go to Kyoto for the vibes, but, like, Osaka's for those hole-in-the-wall, like, curry rices.

54:26And, man, there's this amazing curry that I found. It was just, it was a counter. And what was really fun about that trip was I, when I had that bite of curry with, I think there was a tonkatsu over it, of course. And that, that tiny space was, sorry, I know this is a rapid fire, but it was just, it was just so deep. That flavor, the flavor of that curry, I'm really, I'm dying to replicate it in my own kitchen. But I think what was special about it was I posted it and then all these other people were also traveling at the time and near that area. and I was like, oh, it's called this. I don't know Japanese, but it's this, this, and this.

55:01And then that week I got a bunch of DMs, you know, mentions, and all these other people who had eaten that same curry. And it made me really, it felt really good because I wasn't like developing recipes during that trip, but it felt like I was still like helping people feed themselves. I felt really good. So rewarding. Tapped into something different, yeah. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. I have this one in mind because I'm trying to find a spaghetti napolitan to write about for the magazine because I really love that dish and think it's really fascinating. But Hiroko's Place, do you remember this place?

55:32No, basically. Yeah, it was a Japanese, like, Japanese cafe that focused on those wafu dishes. So they had, I'm sure they had mentako pasta, but we would always go for the omarice, any of the ketchup dishes, like Spaghetti Nepolitan included. And she just did it really well. And they had a really good coffee program and a really good tea. And it was just so chill and humble. And it was it was just disappeared one day. And I don't know, I never got to I wasn't a reporter then. So I had no reason to like interview the owner or something. But there was always this one Japanese woman there. And I just always wondered if that was Hiroko because she looked like the person who was in charge of cooking everything.

56:11And she was she had this authority to her. And it felt like we were just going over to her house to eat something. And I really miss that restaurant. And I want this to be a call out to Hiroko. Yeah. Is that you? He's right in. Where are you? DM Eric. Does anyone know where Heroku's place went? Yeah. Yeah. I could see a future article about that. Some incentive there. Yeah, basically. A binder's fee? No. I think it's wonderful when you can think back at a restaurant that wasn't just serving great food, but you could see there's like a real story there. Story, yeah. That's the beauty of this job.

56:44Yeah, that's true. That's true. What was your top restaurant of 2024? for no other restaurant comes to mind because there there were so many great meals but ole yeah can i can i name two you can say you can name two i think ole is great great always a shout out that's my korean spot because our mothers the the woman who owns who cooks who owns that restaurant and cooks it and runs it with her daughter lisa um she cooks like my mother a little bit they come from a similar part of korea and i i really just i reported about their naeng me on once but then i realized that just there all the food there is kind of like home food it's like food that i want to i could and want to eat every day um but then there's also omagrasa which is a pizza place by me and that's i have like this soul bond with that restaurant i don't know what it is but they you know they make really good brick oven pizza but they also do beautiful salads i wrote about their salad last year i like that place because it's a place where we can just decide to go um you know last minute and be like oh maybe omagrasa it's our neighborhood spot and then we go and he makes really good bread it's just this talented baker adam baumgart and he he kind of he trained under gabriel hamilton and you know worked at prune and so he it's that kind of food that's like we called it i call it is it soft boy food or gentle boy food or something i don't know it's like those kinds of cooks who are just so in touch with their hands and the seasoning and it's not that kind of like over salted tiktok food that is kind of trending at restaurants right now and I just I like his food it's like it feels like I'm at his house eating a salad I wanted to tap into soft boy food with you another time we were riffing on that dinner recently that was great we'll come up with something okay your last one your favorite sandwich tomato sandwich yeah tomato mayonnaise sometimes furikake but sometimes just salt and pepper red choice always has to be a really good white Pullman loaf I really like I like white soft breads I've been really into white soft breads Well, you make a good one.

58:41I would say the Korean American recipe for milk bread is pretty great. But yeah. Good tomato sandwich. Do you like tomato sandwich? Oh, hell yeah. Especially farmer's market. Literally before you can unpack your fabric bags, you just pull those out and just get right to it. Get that bread. Get that Hellman's. Or Duke's. Or Koopy. Yeah, yeah. Or Ayo. Right. I got a lot of favorite Mayos these days. Really? For me, it's just Hellman's is always my thing. Hellman's always my thing. But it's because I grew up with that. But I have to say, last year's tomatoes kind of sucked. Don't you think? Last year I had bad tomatoes, in the Hudson Valley at least, had incredible stone fruit.

59:16That's what I heard, too. Incredible stone fruit. Maybe you told me that, yeah. I mean, the weather has been wild. I know. I just pray for them. Yeah. It's been rough. It was rough. I just remember eating like one tomato sandwich and being like, oh, this was bad. And so I was just like, I don't even want another one. And then I just ate apples all year. Apples were great. Apples were better than 23. I agree. Yeah, so hopefully this year. 25, everything's going to be great. Oh, I hope. Yeah. Eric Kim, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thanks for having me. Such a fun time.

59:54What's up, Eliza? How are you? I'm good, Matt. How are you? I'm great. We're back with three things. It has been a minute. It's been a minute. I'm back in New York after spending most of January in Asia, in Taiwan and Thailand, which was so fun and I was so lucky to get to do. But now I'm feeling back in the New York state of mind. You're in the state of mind. What's your first thing? My first thing is the first thing I wanted after coming back from a month in Asia was Mexican food. I had really good burritos from La Flor, which is an independent burrito business here in Brooklyn. They do cool pop-ups around the city and they also let you do pick up sometimes.

1:00:29And my friend Collier got these really amazing Bedia tamales. Oh, my goodness. So you order on Instagram? Yeah, she ordered on Instagram and then we had these tamales and made some salads and things to go with them. And I really enjoyed it. I never had a Bedia Tamal before. And it had just really nice contrast of that good masa kind of enveloping that kind of flavorful, stringy Bedia. It was perfect. Do you think it's going to go brick and mortar soon? Do you get a sense? I have no idea their business model or what they want. But I haven't seen them do fun pop-ups at places like Time Again over the summer.

1:01:05and I think Frog. So I would definitely recommend following on Instagram, seeing when they're doing a tamal drop and getting in line. I'm going to get in line. Maybe we can get them to the office. I'm so into that. I'm like craving it right now. Yeah, yeah. It's a strong first thing. What's your first thing? Strong first thing, indeed. Well, I'm still thinking food while it is the theme of our show. I have a great conversation with Caroline Eden coming up and it's terrific. It's later this week. I just have to call out her book, Cold Kitchen. it's I've read a bunch of memoirs recently I'm like you know back in the reading groove and it's been all memoirs all the time we have a couple future guests who've written memoirs and I've I've just dug into them this is Caroline's uh her her memoir and you know anyone who doesn't know Caroline she's the author of several books award-winning uh including Black Sea and Red Sand are you are you familiar with her work I haven't read it but I know the name and it's something that's like always on my notes app list of books you know yeah no it's it's it's definitely worth checking out.

1:02:04And I love the format of this book. You know, while Red Sands and Black Sea are more, I would say, they're like slightly cookbooks, but they're not readers, right? I like read this on my phone like I usually read and it just flew by. You know, Caroline's journey is really remarkable. And she writes about travels throughout Eastern Europe and the Baltic region. And each chapter is an essay. Like she took the Trans-Siberian Railroad for like 10 days on the train in Russia. That was a remarkable essay and it kind of squares some of the war that's been happening between Ukraine and Russia. And I think that was a really poignant piece.

1:02:47And she goes to Bulgaria. I like talk to her at length about Bulgaria, a place I really want to visit. And I I just think her writing is really, really crisp. And it's all centered around the cold kitchen is her home in Edinburgh. And she reflects on all of her travels while coming home to this kitchen and cooking some of the recipes. And, you know, it sounds a little precious, you know, in theory. But, man, the writing is so good. It's I'm sold on this concept. And I just love her prose. The book is called Cold Kitchen. Check it out. OK, now it's going to be at the top of my reading list. I really want to.

1:03:21I really want to. Yeah, you'll like it. It's your shit for sure. Yeah, it sounds great. What's your next thing? My next thing is I have been making a lot of pasta at home since being back. All of the four days that I've been back, I've had pasta twice. And I've been using this really good pasta from Flower and Water, the restaurant in San Francisco. They have their own pasta line. They use North American semolina and organic bronze dye for the different shapes. I think it's just a really delicious pasta. It has a really nice texture and some of that semolina flavor. And I've just been using it at home to make kachoe pepe and like a good tomato sauce.

1:03:59I think if you're buying like you don't want to go for a barilla, but something a little bit more than that, but also not as precious as having fresh pasta. It's a really nice thing to have on hand. Having a quality premium dry pasta. What a move. Have you been to the restaurant ever? I've been many years ago, so I haven't been in a while. But, you know, they're a very like established restaurant in the Bay Area food scene for a good reason. And it does make me want to go to the restaurant the next time I'm back in the Bay. Yeah. We published a cookbook here, too, years ago. And it still is in print and really vital.

1:04:32It's a beautiful book and I think kind of a pioneering book, to be honest. Really good. Oh, I love that. Yeah. What's your next thing? My next thing is I did this episode about Kingston. It was really popular. I got a lot of feedback online and the numbers proved the numbers and people really wanted to hear more about Kingston. So I've been going with frequency. I've been up three times since that interview aired. And there's a lot of new shit happening in Kingston. And I had to do a little Kingston scene check. Oh, please. I haven't been upstate in a little while now. So I'd love to hear about it.

1:05:03Well, everyone should go to Kingston first and foremost. I know I keep saying that, but it's really easy to get there. And it's just outside the city. And the first place is Pinkerton's Bakery. It's a bakery from Angela Pinkerton. You know, she came from San Francisco's Pie Society, which was a really beloved bakery and pop-up there. And before that, she was at EMP and really such a talented pastry chef. She opened up in this—it's a really cool space. It's, like, very open. The kitchen is super—it's there. They're baking the pies right there. There's a little bit of a seating area. Really user-friendly.

1:05:38I love the design of this space. And I got to try Angela's passion fruit meringue with bay leaf custard. It's really, as you can imagine, like the new citrus meringue of my dreams. It's so good. So, Eliza, the second place I visit in Kingston is Fancy Bagels. Have you seen this on Instagram? Fancy Bagels? Yes. F-A-N-T-Z-Y-E. I have to look at it three times, but that's how you say it. Amazing. I like what they're doing there a lot. Alina Carlson is the founder. And, you know, she used to work up in Martha's Vineyard and has moved into Kingston and is doing, I would call it that new bagel shop that keeps popping up all around the country.

1:06:22It's Kingston's version, which is kind of like has like a real chef point of view. Really, really excellent bagel sandwiches. Of course, the bagels were really, I would say, toothsome in the best way. My kind of bagel. And they do a Gouda with Jake's Gouda bagel, which I thought was a really nice, you know, simple bagel sandwich. Hash browns with trout roe and creme fraiche. They're doing these hash browns to order a little chef-y. And really, I love it with a bagel sandwich. You get the hash browns on the side. They've got cool smears. Like, they've got a fermented chili and a lemon caper smear.

1:06:58So they're doing, like, the flavors that we want in our smears. I don't know if I want scallion anymore. I want fermented chili. That's me. I want scallion fermented chili. Yeah, right. Let's do them both together. Really like Fancy. I can't wait to see them grow and expand. I feel like they're just getting started. It's a really cool place. I bet they'll do dinner at some point. I'm just like totally speculating. Last stop at Kingston is Sorry Charlie, a new-ish pizzeria. I think it's like six months old. I finally was able to visit. It's the team behind Hudson and Packard in Poughkeepsie. I think they got like the highest ranking from Dave Portnoy.

1:07:33Last time we're going to say his name on the show, but really, really high, high marks there. And the pie itself is it's a hybrid. It's a Detroit and Sicilian. I mean, they have Frico on the bottom, like the Detroit style, but the thickness is not quite Detroit. It's a little thinner. It's like a little more Sicilian. I think I got that right. I feel I feel it's it's somewhere in between. They obviously are the ones I think that they said that on an Instagram post. So I might be quoting them. But really, first and foremost, a great bar with pizza. These are bar pies. They've got a beautiful bar, great NA beer menu.

1:08:05Shouts to Al's Ale. And just a cool place to hang out. One pie I want to call out includes dill pickles, bacon, ranch, red onions, and pecorino. Whoa. Really, really good. Really, really good. That sounds really good. Yeah, I like this pizzeria a lot. I definitely want to go more than often, more than I probably can make it there, but I love it. And the other pie that stuck out was the Debbie Got Drunk. It's mozzarella, pepperoni, banana peppers, vodka sauce, sesame seeds, whipped ricky. Ha, they call them ricotta ricky. I'm just reading the menu because it's fun. Hot honey basil. That's a pie I will eat often.

1:08:43I wish I could go up there more often, to be honest. Yeah, I wish I could go up there more often, too. At least you're outside of the city. Yeah, yeah, no. It's great. But it's so fun, I think, to have a city that has so many fun food things going on and continuing to pop up. It just makes it the perfect weekend destination. Yeah, definitely. What's your last thing? My last thing is not a food thing, but I really want to talk about Severance. Not at length because it's annoying to hear people talk about a TV show if you've never listened to it before. But I just want to say to anyone who might be listening that does not watch the show but was debating it, I think it's just really good TV.

1:09:16And Matt and I talked about it when I was watching the first season in preparation for this one coming out. I was not one of the people that had to wait many years as you did. Yeah. But I think it's just really good storytelling and it's cold out right now. And a lot of people are looking for something to just kind of plug into and hole up with. And I think it's very good television. I like that we're speaking in broad strokes because I think that you're right. Like we don't need to go into plot points because that's spoilers and some people don't watch Severance. But by the way, Kingston is where they film Severance.

1:09:50So I just talked about these great restaurants. And I know Aang's, a great Chinese restaurant, has a plot point later in the season. And of course, the Phoenicia Diner up the street was on the episode. So I love the Catskills, Hudson Valley vibes there. Yes, it's just great storytelling. And I just think that they call it whatever in the industry, a mystery box show. I think that that's always going to get people talking online. But it's not just about the mystery box. It's about the people and the characters. They haven't forgotten that there's actually humanity behind these mystery box stories.

1:10:26And I just like I want to know more about the characters. The actors are so amazing. And I just I think their lives are interesting. And there's so much like heart in this show. Yeah, I completely agree. I think the acting is so strong and the writing is so strong. Everything is thoughtful. It doesn't feel like one of those shows, Westworld, maybe that they don't know where they're going with it. Like, it's really clear to me that they know what this is building to and that they're not just building in terms of what they're revealing, but the way these characters are interacting with each other also is beautifully shot.

1:11:01Westworld was truly one of the most frustrating TV viewing experiences of my life. Yeah, I gave up after a certain point because I just felt like there was no point. After season two, like you're like, this is a cliffhanger, but. Yeah, no, it feels very considered. So I think people should watch Severance. Yeah. It's your last thing. That's a great plug for watching TV. No, I think it's great that you brought that up. My last thing. So on my monopod, which is me talking about things without you in the room. Dear Diary. Dear Diary. Very interesting way to do content. But I talked about the end briefly because I went through many different products I spotted at the show.

1:11:39I mentioned Frost Buttercream. And I was able to connect with them and they sent me their product. And I have to say, Eliza, this is very cool. So first off, it's a buttercream that's commercially available. Like buttercream, I think, is having a moment. Do you agree? I just don't like buttercream. That's fair. I think it is the worst option on a cake. I would much prefer cream cheese frosting or just whipped cream. Fair, fair, fair. No disrespect to frost buttercream. I'm so sorry. You're speaking your own personal opinion here. And I think you're right about buttercream. There is nasty shit out there, frankly.

1:12:20Like, it's not great when you're getting at a commercial bakery. And what I like about this product, first and foremost, is that it's pared down ingredient-wise. They really show the five or six ingredients in the frosting on the packaging. So I appreciate that. I also just appreciate that, you know, Liv Truesdale, who's the founder, you know, I connected with her at the show and I just I like that she's like, you can actually eat it out of the container. And she's giving me permission. I know that's not like the main application for frost buttercream. But when you want to dip in and have a little bit of that vanilla buttery, you know, little bite after after dinner.

1:13:01Listen, I'm all about eating straight buttercream as your dessert. Okay, like that's it. You're judging me, which I appreciate. But I posted on Instagram and someone was like, you better be eating it out of the container. I'm like, yes, I am. That's not the application. You think it's gross, right? I just, if it was cream cheese frosting, I'd have no problem with it. I just, look, maybe I haven't had the right buttercream. That's what I'm saying. Frost is like, there's something about it. I'm on the website right now. It's a great vanilla. They're nailing the vanilla. The texture is right. But they want you to actually bake with it.

1:13:31So here's what I'm saying. a great product you can whip it in um like a kitchen aid or just like with a whisk for like two or three minutes get it nice and aerated and there you have it you have this great buttercream for any kind of i would say loaves you know cupcakes obviously if you want to go there and i'm pulling for these guys as young founders they're they're they're new to the game and it's a category that i love when i go to shows and i see a category that i didn't think needed to be changed like it's like wow that's a brand like there's a new buttercream available commercially so i was kind of into that so you haven't been sold if you like it i love it no no that's not how we roll here not at all we have difference of opinion and you don't like it so uh but i think maybe i'll bring some into the studio and i'll i'll you can try it or or not but yeah how about i'll bring in like a muffin or a loaf cake or something and then we can frost it and try it have it.

1:14:28Yeah, I think that's great. I've actually never tried it in its own purpose. I sampled it on the show. I have not baked anything yet. I plan to this weekend. And I'm going to use it in something. I don't know quite what. I was thinking actually Eric Kim's mochi cake, I think with buttercream would be pretty cool. I don't know. I'm like riffing here. I'm just thinking what I would put the buttercream on. Yeah, you're speaking to I'm team cream cheese frosting. You are. And I like cheese frosting. But you know what? I do think it's cool to see new kinds of products, and I'm looking forward to trying it.

1:15:00Yeah, I'll bring it in. Well, that's our three things. Thanks, Liza, for sharing. You too.

1:15:09This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.