554: Inside the Crazy World of NYC Restaurants with Emma Bengtsson (Aquavit) & Michael Stillman (Quality Branded)

33:44It's because we spend everything on rent here. It's true. It's true. We can get into that conversation. We have a different government style and a different, I would say, economic style than in Northern Europe. You know, it's a little different policy of taxes and all that. But that's a different conversation. It's a different show. That's a different show. I mean, I love those topics too. But like when you visit Stockholm, I mean, can you visit in February? Is that possible? For many years, I would go home in beginning of March because it's my sister's birthday. Yeah. And I came to the point where I was just like, nah, let's not do this anymore.

34:28It's a beautiful city if the snow stays, but it's a little wet and cold, and it's a different cold. It can be in the thermometer or the temperature can show exactly the same as here. but you go there and you feel like you're 20 degrees colder for some reason it's just yeah i don't know yeah i'm just thinking like when you want to visit countries you know like you want to go in the summer you want to go in the summer but that's like literally every country so like let's think i mean i'm like maybe it would be fun to go i mean if you're inside having some some snaps it's like not a bad gig right yeah the only problem with sweden in the summer is that every high-end restaurant close for four to five weeks.

35:18Yeah. So you got to plan it. Go in the beginning or go at the end when they're not closed. Back to the tasting menu question. We talked about the bar menu, but back to tasting. Like, we've written on Taste how, you know, tasting menus can feel exhausting and can be too long, and we've had some great commentary about that on our show. So what's the sell to come and have the big, long tasting at Aquavita? I'd love to get your take on why should we invest in this meal. I think moving forward in general for guests is, or when you go to these restaurants, you need to see it as more as just, oh, I'm hungry, I need to eat.

36:00Like, this is sitting down for dinner in a theater. Like, you're supposed to go there for an experience. those two and a half hours shouldn't feel like two and a half hours it should be an illusion you should be there you should be enjoying like little snacks after each other and it's it's it's hard for a chef as well because you want to create a menu that's

36:30fulfilling enough but I also don't want a guest to leave feeling like oh my god I'm gonna die so you have to find that proper enough is enough kind of. Restraint. But I think in general when you get into higher end restaurants it's not just getting full like it's an experience like if you go on broadway and you see a show think about seeing that show and having food in front of you that's what a michelin restaurant should be yeah but i mean we have guests who come in and they go can you do a tasting menu in 45 minutes and i was like sure if you want to eat it in 45 minutes i can cook it it's up to you They end up not eating it though, right?

37:26Oh, they do. Oh, really? They can keep up? Oh, I've had guests. Mostly single diners or two tops who have to get to the airport. Oh. And they really want to try it. And yeah, they do it. That's cool. I mean, that's cool when somebody feels so compelled to try their food that they're going to like maybe miss a flight. Yeah. Can't nail it. Right. I mean, it's cool. Like it's praise. It's like, you know, if money is not really an option, as I think maybe that's the case. in some of these situations it's like yeah do the tasting menu so you can do 45 minutes okay well don't quote me on that at 8 30 on a friday night but um yes yeah i've had that all right this is a funny question but i i just can't let you leave without asking it do you have a sauna practice?

38:15So I basically look for, when I look for a gym in the city, my number one priority is the sauna, not the gym. It's very important. Maybe not as important as if I were finished, But I do believe in the health benefits from it. And it makes me feel better, makes me start my day better. And I think more and more studies are coming out, right, about how good it actually is for you. So if I can at least go once a week, I'm happy. Oh, wow. That's great. I mean, that's amazing. So your gym has a good sauna. Okay. What about... But it's hard to find in the city. I know. I don't think I've been to a sauna in New York, like proper New York.

39:15It's usually out somewhere else. Yeah, I mean, I feel like the sauna is a time for meditation as well. You know, you get to be there with your thoughts. Thank you for answering that question. I'm a fan of the sauna when I can find it, but it's nice to know that you have a practice. On This is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. I see you gulping. Are you ready? Yes. The best fruit? Apple. Okay, so we have to unpack that a little bit. First off, follow-up question. Swedish apples or upstate New York apples?

39:53What are better? Swedish winter apples. They have to grow in the winter. What's the pastry you just love using apples in? Pie. Yeah. A crumble, like a crumble pie. Oh, always the crumble lattice tops. Stop that nonsense. Always. Why would you not do a crumble? Obviously. The worst vegetable. I don't think they exist. They must. I'm not letting you leave this. You got to answer that. Oh, I don't know. I love vegetables. I don't think there's a vegetable I don't eat. Can you count kiwi as a vegetable? Well, in this land of ours, in this universe we've built, tell me about why you don't like kiwi.

40:38Oh, probably because it was everywhere when I was growing up in Sweden in the 80s, 90s. There was kiwis on everything, every single cake, every pastry. I don't know. No. It just takes you back to like overuse and just forcing it into food. Yeah. Also in America, I recall in the 90s I had kiwis always at my table. I don't want to hate on kiwis. I like them personally, but I respect the answer. Okay, this is a good one. The best dessert? Ice cream. Okay, wow. Unexpected twist, but from a pastry chef, it makes sense. Okay, so when you're thinking about doing ice cream at your restaurant, do you have standard flavors or does it always change with what?

41:22Always change. So what are you doing right now? What's the ice cream? Ooh, we have a smoked yogurt one. There's not that many ice creams in the turn right now, But I think last year we had a, and I say this with both love and nod because I love the rum raisin ice cream that we make. I don't like the one you buy. Fair enough. But I like the one we make. That's it. That's nice that you can go counter to like the, we'll say Haagen-Dazs maybe, just saying maybe not the best one. I love Haagen-Dazs, but that's not the best one. But I think as a pastry chef, I don't eat sweets anymore. Okay, what do you mean?

42:05I don't like it. And if I go to a restaurant, I never order desserts. This needs a follow-up. Okay, so you don't like eating sweets as a pastry chef. Is it because your palate has seen enough? Are you like, you know, at your 150 ,000 miles, your car needs to be turned in? I never, which is why pastry was never the thing for me in the beginning. I just never really, I had a couple of sweets that I loved. My grandma used to make this like chocolate cake. I love that. I love ice cream. But other than that, I've never been a sweet tooth person in that way. Fair enough. It makes perfect sense. And you're obviously cooking throughout the spectrum now.

42:50So your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Stockholm. You said the hometown. I like that. You've talked about why you love it. respect that answer a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead wow um oh there's a couple but i think i always regretted that i never were able to go to el bully um so i but i would rather have want to go back in time and do it yeah of course uh then bring them back and maybe right right right your favorite cookbook of all time the nordic cookbook Tell me about it. It is literally my Bible at work. It is. Who wrote it? Magnus Nilsson. Yeah. And it's holding together by tape, I think, at the restaurant at the moment.

43:42But it just have everything. And I love his personal touch to everything. I think there's somewhere in there a quote about their shrimp skagen, which is like a maitannese-based shrimp salad that we all love. And he wrote half a page on how disgusting it is to put red onions in it. And there's many variations of it. But he was just like, I cannot believe chefs are doing this. and so I love that he's it felt like he actually wrote it or that he wrote it with like he worked on it yeah it's deeply personal for him that book is amazing just the photography too just paging through it are you guys friends or do you guys know each other?

44:34we do I haven't seen him in a very long time but I did help him out when he was promoting it in New York or in the USA when it first came out and yeah, almost every other day I go through it looking for ideas on how to twist recipes. That's really cool that you flip back to that book so often as a professional and is he opening a restaurant? I don't know. It's the thing with him, right? You never know. Yeah. He's just that kind of spirit. Yeah. We'll go back to the first season of Chef's Table. His Chef's Table is is one of my favorites of all time and a terrific trip. Thank you for sharing that about Magnus.

45:18Is there a recent favorite cookbook discovery of yours? I was home in Sweden and I took, I took my parents to a restaurant for their birth birthday. They have birthdays two days apart. So I took them to a chef who just published a cookbook called potatoes. and it's very interesting because potatoes are so dear to Swedish people and I think that is the cookbook that I've got within the last year last one your favorite sandwich BLT I think yeah take me through the perfect BLT I'm a bodega kind of girl BLT so I switch it around a little So you've got to be on a roll. Oh, I like that. I like that twist.

46:12We put a little bit of cheese in there. I like this twist. Whoa. And mustard. And then grill it. Damn. And then grill it? Wow, we are just breaking. This is new. This does come up from time to time. So I guess it's not a BLT anymore. No. Yeah, a little extra touch to it. A little extra touch. Have you ever thought about doing a more casual sandwich concept idea? Well, I am now. Okay. I'm thinking about it. You're thinking about it now. Okay. Let's see. We'll come back and we'll talk about that. Emma, it was great to have you on our show. Thank you so much for joining. Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

46:57Michael Stillman, welcome to This is Taste. How are you, my man? Good. Thanks for having me. Michael, before we get into this conversation, talk about quality branded. And just all the restaurants you run because you're a group, but you operate restaurants that are individual. Many wouldn't even assume they're in a group. And you probably have done your job right if that's the assumption. But go over your – let's go over the roster. We have a range of restaurants here in New York. You know, Quality Meats, Quality Italian, Quality Bistro are restaurants. We also run the Smith-Lensky in New York.

47:31My father founded it. The big boy. We have Bad Roman, Zuzu's, which is our Eastern Mediterranean restaurant. And we have a partnership with Scott Tessinelli and Angie Rito, with Don Angie and now San Sabino down the West Village, which we're incredibly proud of. And we have a quality Italian out in Denver, Colorado now, too. And I think I have covered most of the basics. I think you did. I reviewed all those restaurants. I've been to many of them. I must say, Denver is kind of an interesting city. It's your only non-New York. Yeah, you know, it didn't start out that way, and we're continuing to look in other cities.

48:10You know, we just ended up there by happenstance, but actually love it. Love it. It's an incredible city. Well, you grew up in this legendary restaurant family. Your father, Alan, famously founded TGF Fridays. We know that name, but we don't quite know maybe the history of this restaurant, and you also founded Smith & Wolinski's as a family. So to summarize, what was it like growing up in this family with your father creating these legendary brands but also many other smaller restaurants? Lots of flair. Lots of flair. 39 pieces of flair. Was that your dad's idea? Was that like your dad's thing, the flair?

48:48Oh, my God, no, no. I mean, he founded TGI Fridays because his father wasn't accounted. He said, I'll do anything but. He, you know, tried to do this, tried to do that. and he wanted to meet women. And he lived in the neighborhood and he befriended a bartender on 63rd and 1st who wanted to sell his bar. And he said, well, I can make a bar. And, you know, it was the early 60s and there were all these, you know, young people he wanted to meet. There were a lot of stewardesses who lived in a big building right in the area. And he said, well, if we make this bar a little more friendly, could have a hamburger, it could look nice, we'll put some Tiffany lamps up at the time.

49:25It'll be a bar that, you know, women feel comfortable going to, which was really, you know, not a thing as much in the 1950s in New York. And that's how T.J. Price started. It was sort of like a singles bar. Yeah. He invented the singles bar, essentially. Pretty much. He and Mortimer Leroy. And, you know, I think it sort of like grew from there into what it is today. Very different. You know, and then in 1977, he founded Smitalinsky. and I think you know it's funny because they feel very different but I also think there's sort of elements that are very the same they have like sort of iconic branding they have a real sense of place they have a like unique storyline and you know I think that's sort of you know core to what he was all about yeah everything needed to have a story right a vision right it wasn't just a fancy French restaurant which in the late 70s in New York was dominant, of course, for Italian restaurants too.

50:24Yeah, I think he kind of thought the opposite. You know, he looked at some of the classic places, and at the time there were a lot of sort of Italian steakhouses. They developed out of the 1950s, an Italian, Crisella's, The Palm. There were sort of Italian restaurants developing the steak, and he thought there should be a singular American steakhouse. And at the time, American wines were just starting to become prominent, you know, in the late 70s, early 80s. And he was like, there should be something that focuses iconically on American steakhouse, which seems so synonymous now. But that wasn't really what was happening in New York at the time.

51:02And that was really his vision for Smith-Walensky. And he wanted to do it at scale, right? It wasn't like a lot of times steakhouses are one singular location in a town and that's it. But there was a level of entrepreneurship happening with Smith and Walensky, right? Well, for sure. I mean, in the physical size of the Smitalenski here in New York, which is gigantic. But it actually took him over 20 years before he did any other. No way. I didn't know that. You know, originally he had sort of smaller one-off restaurants throughout New York and, you know, higher-end restaurants, different seafood, New American.

51:44And only in the 90s did he decide, hey, maybe this is something we want to, you know, move outside of New York. Yeah. Eventually IPO'd. Eventually it IPO'd. Which is tremendous for a restaurant group to IPO. I mean, it's crazy. is not really the norm anymore. It was sort of a freakish moment, but speaks a lot, I think, you know, as much as anything to how iconic the brand and marketing he created. And I think that's one of the things that has been kind of a core element and a lot of things I've learned was this sense of place, this sense of humor, this sense of style, and creating a singular event out of a restaurant was something that was very unique to what he liked to do.

52:30And I certainly grew up around that sort of interest, interest in light guard and creativity in a lot of different ways. Let's talk about you growing up in these restaurants. What are your first jobs and how did you know that you wanted to be in this business from an early age? Definitely not. Definitely not. In fact, my father was definitive that I should never go into the restaurant business, which is the perfect thing as a young parent. Now I know like the perfect thing to tell your kids is don't do this. Right. Is dad want him to be an accountant? And he was like, nope. He was like, do not go into restaurant business.

53:03I was like, oh, it seems interesting. I'll go work for Danny Meyer. You're like, all right. You don't want me to work for yours. I'll work for this guy. So what is that like? Dang, I love that story. It was great. You know, I grew up with eclectic interests. You know, my father, I came to restaurants more from like an entrepreneurial, you know, vision of it. And he loved art. He loved traveling. And like, I think I grew up around those aspects of it. but then you know after college I studied you know art history I studied politics I didn't know you know every other 22 year old I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do and I ended up working for Danny you know for a year and it was incredible I mean I ran food and I checked you know clothes I you know didn't know Jack I mean less than Jack I think four years of like you know Higher education made me worse, for sure, worse.

53:58But it was an incredible team. I worked at Tabla at the time with Floyd Cardoze, Randy Grudy, who founded Shake Shack. Will Gadara was one year out of college, was working there as a floor manager. You know, Dan Kluger. It was just this incredible team of people. And to watch them for a year, I think, really, and to understand the level of, like, care and thought, it made such an incredible impact on me. I think that was, like, a really incredible differentiator for me. So eventually, your father, Alan, you end up working in the family business. What's your first couple of jobs at the restaurant group?

54:42Once I, you know, once I got done with Danny and I said to my dad, you know, I really like this. He said, well, okay. He's like, Danny's great. That's fine. But, you know, we got to test drive you for real. You know, so we did two things. One, he said, you're going to go work for one of our stewards, you know, and you're going to get up at 5 a.m. every morning and you're going to do like everything. and it was, you know, every single element, all the stuff, you know, the stuff I'd learned the hard way, you know, exactly what it means, the scale, the operations, the understanding, the infrastructure, like all those pieces.

55:22And he was right. It's important to start there in some ways, starting there after seeing that really set a like interesting foundation for me and a realization of how complex it is to do what we do on scale. And then he said, you got to do openings and I ended up on the road doing three or four of our Smith-Lunsky openings for about two, three years. And openings are an incredible beast of a thing. Oh my gosh. Your group is obviously very skilled at conceptual restaurants. I mean, TGF Friday's for God's sakes. But I mean, I loved Park Avenue Summer, Autumn, Winter. I love that restaurant that you ran years ago.

55:59You also have an eye for talent, scouting great chefs. So let me ask you, when you're thinking about opening a restaurant. How does the concepting work within the group? I mean, are you thinking about trends within the industry? Do you just want to open up a fresh idea that doesn't have a trend, that you're anti-trend? Because I look at this group of restaurants and I'm like, man, you've got a lot of concepts going on here. A lot of concepts. Yeah. I would say we handle it in a couple different ways. You know, I've had a chef partner for over 20 years, Craig Kakatsu. He's incredible. And we really work hand-in-hand when we think about creatively.

56:33And I think we brainstorm a lot of different ideas and there are a lot of different things that we love to do, but we sort of brainstorm them and we sort of have them to the side, you know, just thinking on them. So we're always thinking about different things that we think would be interesting. You know, I like to approach a lot of things from our brand pillars and more and more I try to really think about, like, what are the core elements that are true to ourselves? And it's taken time to really sort of develop into that. and understand what fits for us. And then when we look at spaces and we understand what they are, I think we really like to take a step back and say, who's the audience here?

57:15Is there something that fits exactly who we are, something we're excited about doing that this audience would like? I think a lot of people have a conception, hey, I've got this amazing idea, so I'll put it here. But like, you know, one of our big things is like, we call it egoless hospitality, but a lot of our vision is like, We always want to remember who the customer is. We always want to remember our guest. And I think for us, the big thing is like, hey, we could have a million great ideas, but do they want it? Do they want it for a while? Can we bring it if it's interesting? Is it interesting and sustainable?

57:48Like, can we put those two pieces together? So we sort of have to build both buckets, I think, to find the right thing that clicks together and be very cognizant that our ego doesn't get in the way too much. So does it start with real estate then? Does like the restaurant start with the lease? Because it seems like that's the biggest expense and obviously the biggest decision. I think like we germinate a lot of ideas, you know, so we're always sort of germinating different ideas and maybe, you know, around a certain cuisine or maybe around even like something else, you know, an interesting prototype or whatever else.

58:21And we're looking, we're always looking for places that fit kind of the scale and the feel that we think would be good, have an audience. And when one plus one, we're like this for this. Okay. And it feels core to who we are and has a sense of where we be. That's when we try to move forward. So it's sort of putting the ideas and the place and the people together. And we think about it's not just a real estate. I really think about it's like who is the audience. Okay. You know, that's how I feel. But the real estate would dictate the audience a little bit. Because you're opening up in the Upper East Side versus downtown.

58:53But I think we think less like, oh, this building. It's important. The space is important. But often we're like, we like to create within a space. It's about like, who's around here? Who would want this? Are we going to do something they would think is pretty fucking cool? I like that. Now, let's talk concepts. As I said, Park Avenue, Autumn Winter. I love that restaurant. Great, great concept. Yeah, it was cool. Really cool. Rotating a menu quarterly by the season. It sounds like a simple idea, but this is executed really well. The whole thing. We shut the restaurant down for two days. That's right, the whole thing, yeah.

59:26We took the walls down, the uniforms, the music, the soap. We had different soaps. We had different matches. Yeah. It was really holistic. And I felt like he felt so campy, so ridiculous, that you had to, like, thread the needle and do it so well for it to not, you know, be. And I think we sort of did it. And I think one of the ways that, like, I thought we did it well was we framed it as Seasons of New York in our heads. Yeah, you did. You know, we were like, this is about, not just from a timing perspective, but like, not like the season visually, like, you know, falling leaves. But what would the restaurant feel like that you'd want to be in as a New Yorker now?

1:00:11Would it feel more festive in the winter? Would it feel more casual in the summer? How could it, we were like, what would you want? And if a restaurant could have a through line, but feel like what you would be that restaurant that you would go to in that moment in New York. Yeah. That was our through line, both with the food and the design. And I think it really worked. We were like, that's that restaurant that you'd want to be there during that year. So we were like, it's a call to action because we all have those restaurants. You want to go to every spring. If we could be that, we were like, that's cool.

1:00:41It's such a concept. Who was your chef there? Craig. Craig was my chef partner. That's right. He was our first chef originally. That's amazing. And how many seasons did you end up going through before it closed? I feel. Oh, my God. Well, we went through like seven years there. Wow. And then we moved to 26th Street, and it was actually incredibly successful. And then we closed in COVID only because they sold the building. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And they did like four years renovating it. Are you going to reboot it? I feel like this like works. We've looked around. We've looked around. It's fun. You know, I think.

1:01:45you know, got me going. No, it's a very creative concept. What are some concepts that didn't work? Because I feel like I want to push you. Oh, God. Oh, God. Number one, though it's still like a fan favorite internally, was the Hurricane Club, which was our 350-seat tiki restaurant, high-end tiki supper club. Oh, my gosh. Was that like early 2000s? It was 2010. 10, yeah. I'll tell you honestly, if it was 150 seats and said 350, I think it still would have worked. Oh, wow. It was very fun. There were elements that I look back and I show people and they're like, I cannot believe this. This would be like bonkers.

1:02:23And, you know, that goes to show you, it did not work. It didn't click. There were things that just made it not work. But in, you know, every failure, even the most like biggest failures, there's a thousand little learnings and that's the way you have to think about them. Give me one more that didn't work because I appreciate being honest because you have so many successful restaurants. And I went to the opening party of Hurricane Club, by the way. I remember that. It was, yeah, it was 39 cocktails. I know. It was insane. We numbered all of them. Because you nailed it. It was like right during the cocktail boom.

1:02:57Like I think we were kind of as a culture, you know, Death and Company had been operating for five or six years. And now all these other concepts where the cocktail was centered. Yeah. That was such a time and place. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, our cocktail culture still seems to go and go and go. Oh, definitely. It's not. Trying to think, well, you know, we had a lot of quality eats for a while. Yeah. That was our neighborhood thing. And, you know, it's hard. I don't know if we closed them all recently. You know, frankly, they were very popular and I think they had a great feel and fit to them.

1:03:31They were smaller neighborhood restaurants. And I think what we realize is there are people who are really, really good at that, really understand and know how to do it. and our sort of bigger restaurants, I wouldn't call them destination in the sense they're fancy, but that they have a certain sense of place and thing is really what we're good at. And, you know, even though I think, honestly, people really like the product, we didn't know how to operate it the way that certain people know how to operate. And it goes to show you how nuanced our business is and how many different versions of doing it right and wrong there can be.

1:04:03And it was another great learning. and it just like each time it makes me appreciate what somebody else does in our industry and how incredibly hard it is to run a diner or to run a this like how how incredibly cocky we are to say oh we could do oh we do this like it's so nuanced so many moving yeah it's well said i think that there's so many uh you know hidden traps in the restaurant industry and and actually visible traps and known traps that you as an operator step on constantly. Yeah. Yeah. But they're learnings. You had to be ready for that. Yeah. You're behind Don Angie, and I want to know what draws you to Italian food in New York, a city that has a long history.

1:04:46This opening took the city by storm almost immediately, and it's just there's some special sauce there, and it's not just the red sauce. There's something going on. What's the secret to that success? You know, obviously it's our partners, Scott and Angie. I think one of the things that I've really loved is we've had a sense of legacy within our company. And a lot of the things we've done have really come from organic growth. You know, Craig and I met because we tried to work on one of my father's old projects, Manhattan Ocean Club. And then we slowly we developed quality meets together and then park out.

1:05:24Scott and Angie started working for us at Park Avenue Seasons. Scott was a line cook and Angie was a server. That's how they met as a couple and how they developed. And they worked for us for the last 14 or 15 years. They, you know, left for a small time to do a couple other projects. But, like, they have worked with us organically and we've sort of developed, you know, different ideas together, different thoughts. And I think it takes a long time to build partnership and trust and relationship. And I think they are so incredibly talented. And I think there's a different level of insight to each other and believe in each other when you go into a partnership from an organic growth.

1:06:10And when we decided to sort of, you know, back them and do that project and we knew how talented they were. But we also knew each other. I wanted to find a designer for the project that was equally like it was their baby. And I went to two of my college roommates who were designers but never designed a restaurant. And I said, I think you guys are passionate and interested. And I think you will look at this like a singular baby the way my chef partners are. And I think that really added a level of just, you know, it's really the food is the star and they are the star. but just there was a level of belief and faith and interest to getting it all come together that felt organic really around all of our belief in them.

1:06:59I mean, it feels like the anti-Carbon in many ways because I feel like the vibe in there is quite different, but there's similar threads that happen there. And some may say that's a good thing. Some may say it's a bad thing. But I think for general New Yorkers, it might be a good thing. It's funny. I went to high school with Jeff. Yeah, yeah. You and Jeff, you guys are – That's funny that you both, Jeff is one of the partners at a major food group, and you guys are both running this town in many ways in the restaurant. Do you guys catch up? Do you guys have like a meal? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't seen Jeff in a bit, but I see him now and again.

1:07:30I mean, he's done incredibly well, and I love Carbone. And, you know, I don't think we think of it as like the anti-Carbone or even in our heads. I mean, Scott and Anne, she are Italian. They're Italian-American. and they have real thought to what they're doing. But I understand what you're saying. It's a different view of the Italian landscape that they go after. That's kind of what's fun about Italian is it is ubiquitous in American dining in a way that I'm not sure any other cuisine has been over the last 50 years. It's historically intertwined with a lot of American culture, and yet there are so many different threads and nuances to it.

1:08:11And like as an American and someone who grew up in restaurants, there's so much to that and so much subtlety and so much differentiation in just one place. That's kind of cool to say. Yeah, it's been a real success story. I'm going to zoom out a bit. I have some like general restaurant culture questions I want to pick your brain about because, you know, I mean, the first is like what the fuck is up with reservations? It seems that reservations are always written about getting reservations, about selling reservations. I know these are broad topics, but let me know, like, how are you feeling right now about the way your restaurants are booked?

1:08:49Is it fraught? Is it challenging? How do you think about it? I mean, first of all, I feel blessed a little bit. Yeah. You know, after COVID, I think we feel like there's sort of been, you know, and I still, it feels like it was a long time ago, but like, we still take a step back and say, I think there is a human outpouring of like desire for experience. And as lame as that story feels now, it's not right in the sense that I think people want to spend their money being around and with other people. And that, to me, is nice to hear, you know, like broadly speaking. I will say I think it shows how much technology has made restaurants potentially more viable in some ways for young restaurateurs, but also more fraught.

1:09:50And our business is notorious for being singularly hard to make money in. And I think the truth about reservations is, you know, dynamic pricing is something that is sort of ubiquitous in most industries like ours. You go to Yankee Stadium, it's$8 or it's$12 for, you know, the bleachers. It's not the same every day. You go to Motel 6, it's not the same every day. You know, you go on a plane, it's not about the most luxurious piece. It's just there's differentiations to people's wants and demands. The truth is restaurants haven't been thought of that way, but they have all the levers that sort of necessitate some version of that.

1:10:33But it hasn't been possible. I think technology is slowly making that idea possible in some way, but you're seeing the sputterings and confusion around the in-between steps. And some of it feels ugly and disjointed and feels inorganic with our core view. Yeah, like paying for reservation. Our egalitarian view of restaurants. And I understand why. I think for me, if you take a step back and think about it in terms of, you know, are there ways to develop restaurants, especially for small restauranteurs, where they can take advantage of technology and be able to, like, make their restaurant viable?

1:11:13Are there audiences at different times or different days? And, like, how can they do that in a way that makes it work? Because we all know the seven or eight out of ten restaurants go broke in, you know, two years. And it's really, I mean, especially those small neighborhoods, that adorable bistro that everyone cheers for that, like, you know, is challenged so much because three nights of the week everyone wants to get in. But what do they do on Sunday? And how do they do that? And how do they staff? And seasonality and, like, you know, I think there's... There's a possibility here that for all sides there could be a better endgame.

1:11:49So I'm hearing a lot here. I'm hearing first that, you know, if there's a tiered system where certain hot tables cost more, that culture could really change the way restaurants think about their bottom line. The P &L could have a whole new line from premium seating. I'm also hearing a little bit about the way technology is allowing people to game the system and not game the system and us getting over that hurdle of the gaming of the system and not gaming the system. I think when you view it this way, I view it as, you know, there's discounting. No one likes the word discounting, though you're happy to take a discount, but it feels, you know, pretty uncomfortable.

1:12:28And there's, oh, pain, pain in a scalper, pain for this, pain for that. And that feels, you know, not egalitarian. But if you were to go to a Broadway show on a Sunday in January versus Friday in December, you would have different expectations. Right. So if you take a step out from all these different individual people doing these different pieces, there's a spectrum where the cost to do business for a small restaurant and the ability to, you know, give this person what they want on one side and this person on the other side could be viewed in a way that is natural and helpful. So I think it's both pieces, not just the premium, but also the discount.

1:13:08Oh, no, well said. It's making it all feel more fluid. I think now some of the technology are right. They're bots and things that are controlling. And one of the challenges is, you know, like we don't like to take credit cards or, you know, threaten to charge people or do all these things. But we have, you know, I think 7 % no show, no calls. You know, it's a crazy number. Imagine for small restaurants, you know, the inability and the technology is making it harder to navigate. The only way to avoid that is to book too many tables, assuming some will cancel. But if they don't, you have people waiting and they're angry.

1:13:46It's a real challenging matrix to sort of make sure you're taking good care of people, but make the numbers work. And I think, frankly, people like me are lucky enough we have more flexibility. You know, people think of it for Jeff or I. It's really about these small restaurant owners and, like, how do they figure out how to navigate those things. Yeah, it's well said. I think thinking about it from the other side where like at a less prime time, there might be a discount provided just like off the top of your bill. I mean, there's definitely a model that would work. There's people who did this historically.

1:14:21They're even like, you know, you go on OpenTable, you get a thousand points of this or that, right? But it's viewed from the marketing of the restaurant as it looks ugly. And the premium looks ugly. But there's an audience for both. if you bought a ticket to a show or you bought a, you know, or you went on a vacation at two different things, you wouldn't feel like one, you would just say, well, once December, once January. Yeah, I mean, the Broadway show is a great example. I think vacation is more challenging because of time of year and like there's more desirable. But man, if it's a Broadway show, it's the same show every night.

1:14:54And so you would imagine a restaurant is the same show every night. So to offer tiered pricing and kind of getting people in on Tuesdays and getting people in on Sundays, that makes a lot of sense to me. It advantages both the restaurateur and the audience. Yeah. It allows like more variation. And if you think about it, why are all these other – they're all like that, right? Like there are no – there are really no hotels or shows. Airlines. Or airlines or whatever. They all have it because the system, you know, functionally works for both the people and the thing. It's more complicated with restaurants, but technology will maybe make that possible.

1:15:36How do you change the culture then, Michael? I mean, you're thinking about this and clearly you might be piloting something. I mean, do you have an example of in your group where you've done this? Look, it's challenging. We've actually shied away from a lot of it. We're not doing, you know, a lot of these things in part because we don't want people to have those perceptions of us. And I think there's a lot of negative around either version, right? You don't want to be a Groupon restaurant. You don't want to be a Groupon restaurant. You don't want to be felt like you're fleecing people and you're elitist either.

1:16:08And, you know, we definitely build bigger restaurants that should be fun, but we want a range of people to go to them. So the truth is it's important you don't want people to think about it either way. And yet you'd like to give a large audience all the things they want. So, you know, I think it's a little bit industry. It's a little bit culture. It's a little bit talking to people like you and trying to, like, frame the whole story in a different way. I think the people who would gain the most advantage, frankly, are small restaurateurs and customers. Yeah, and those are two folks that we talk to a lot on the show.

1:16:46I mean, we had Ben Leventhal on a couple weeks ago. And, you know, what Blackbird's doing is interesting. He's thinking about patronage and thinking about how the regular can receive benefits. I mean, have you talked to Ben about Blackbird? Ben's a close friend. We're a partner, so we love Blackbird. Great. You're on Blackbird. Perfect. Yeah, we're actually one of the investors. Oh, okay. Well, there you go. The disclosure is out. So you're all about Blackbird. And Michael, you're obviously thinking similar to Ben. And I like this innovation. I like having you at this table and talking it through.

1:17:18because, you know, to my next question, we all are really thinking about restaurants in terms of pricing and, you know, the sticker shock that many are receiving, not just in cities like New York and LA, but like even in smaller towns, you see a price that just feels extremely uncomfortable and then you see a bill that relates to the price. It's uncomfortable. How do you speak to customers when you're in your restaurants who might be getting that sticker shock feeling? Hey, look, Couldn't agree more. You know, frankly, we have sometimes in certain areas pulled back a little bit compared to, you know, a lot of our competitors.

1:17:56We're still in the high-end range. But if you look at I in New York, there are people where substantially higher in us. And I just, I'm shocked. I understand where it's coming from, you know, because I understand the cost behind it. But one of the things I think we have to be careful of is you can't just take costs and charge based on that. You can't use percentages. You have to understand what the audience is willing to pay sustainably, what they can pay over time. You know, so, you know, I think restaurateurs have to be thoughtful, you know, about, you know, thinking long term just because you can or you have to doesn't mean it will work.

1:18:41You have to think about it from another way. And I think, you know, there's a little, you know, nerves on my end, frankly, to push too hard. And even our restaurants, I think, have gotten really hard. I mean, we're in an inflationary period. You're seeing it with everything. So there's an element where everything – You look around and you go to your – Everything went up. Everything went up 25%. In three years, it feels like a lot. But things were up too much, and I think people have to be careful. Yeah, interesting. I mean, it sounds like there's two ways to look at it. One is that it's inflation, and it's just a cost, and it's a percentage.

1:19:19But then the other way, and I'm kind of interested to poke at this a bit more, Or it's also the restaurant's obligation to think about their customer and figure out, just make it work. I mean, how do you do it? Look, you know, one of the things I say to my chefs a lot, especially at the high end, is you can't run a food cost on a dish and say, 35%, okay, they cost me this, so I'm going to charge this. At the high end, the value is about the customer's opinion. It's about our guests. Do they love that? Are they willing to pay a premium for it? Do they love the experience? They're paying for the food, the service, the place.

1:19:59And they're paying for certain things. If it's signature, if it's unique, if it's that. I think you have to frame, you know, what things cost to what your guest believes they should cost or what they want to pay for. And I think a lot of people don't take a step back. It's sort of like you give them all the great ideas in the world, but like they are the decision maker. No, brother. They're in the driver's seat. You're the owner of the bus. And look, if you think about it that way, they're at advantages too. They're dishes that can be more expensive than that percentage, but the customer is happy to pay for them.

1:20:30So there are ways to defray your costs by focusing on where your customer finds value. If you're willing to think from their eyes, you may be able to. It's not just about being less expensive. It's about charging for the right things based on what they believe is worth the value. I mean, I'm hearing a lot of things and I like where you're going. because you're basically like, chef, your food costs need to chill. You can't just do your vision of everything. You have to have some restraint, and part of your job is to balance that. I would say not even that. I would say when you're thinking about pricing a restaurant, you might say, well, this costs this much, so I need to charge X amount more, and this costs this much.

1:21:16But if everyone loves your Caesar salad and its signature, right, you may be able to charge a premium because that's what people want. So therefore, maybe this higher food cost item that is really unique and a cool thing, you know, you can discount it a little more because, you know, it's a smaller audience. So you won't make quite as much on that dish, but you'll make overall more money as a restaurant. And the customer who gets that more unique dish is happy. You can go crazy. and the customer who loves that signature Caesar salad is happy, you've given them what they want. You've covered your cost just in a different way.

1:21:50Yeah, a different way because the hits are the hits. You're a hits business, similar in book publishing. It is a little bit like that. And it's similar to pricing. You're making both groups happy. I love it. Well, let's talk about Bad Roman. It's a restaurant that people really love and people seem to hate. And it feels like it's always busy, which is a great combination. I mean, talk about this restaurant. It's been one of the bigger openings in New York. The way you describe the restaurant sounds like the way my wife describes me. I mean, I think a little controversy about an opening is a good thing.

1:22:25You can't just be all shower with the rays. And we knew it when we did that restaurant. You call it restaurant, Bad Roman. Yeah, you're looking for a little bit of a fight. But, you know, look, honestly, it was coming out of COVID. It was an exhausting and incredibly serious period as a New York restaurateur. And we just wanted to have fun. And we wanted to do something irreverent. And we have a big push about an irreverent sense of humor in our company. And we're like, look, some people will not like that. We've heard it for years. But, you know, hopefully over time we back up that with a level of consistency.

1:23:05and service and sometimes it takes time and there have been hiccups. But I think our restaurants have lasted decades because, like, there is a fundamental level of a good product behind everything we do. But, like, we're not trying to be super, super serious. We're trying to have fun. We're trying to engage. And, you know, coming out of COVID, we just said we really want to go all the way there. What are we ordering in bed, Roman? I don't want to, like, let that pass. Let's talk about food. I mean, you know, we have roni cups, which, you know, is very, you know, challenging. But, like, who doesn't want to just eat the pepperoni?

1:23:41I mean, come on. It's like all my kids do. I'm like, it's just as simple as that's what you want. It's just the roni cups. It's just the roni cups. But we have a little side of ranch. My chef partner, Craig, comes from California, loves ranch dressing. We used to have ranch on the Park Avenue menu, and he works it in everywhere we go. We've arranged this stuff. I mean, we have some really funny over-the-top stuff. We have a cacio e pepe, ravioli filet. But then we actually have some stuff. We have my favorite dish is a sun gold pasta with shrimp. And, you know, all of our pastas are made in-house.

1:24:20They are all done like, you know, to order. They're all done the correct way. And, you know, there's a range of what they do. There's some really outrageous ones. There's some that, like, celebrate this season. It's a little bit of everything. What's it like operating over at the Time Warner Center? I'm using the dated name. I believe it's probably called something else, but it's whatever it is. What's it like operating over there? You know, it's interesting. I would say, look, I think Related are great partners. And, you know, even though there are some restaurants that have been there a long time and they've had, you know, their lauded opinions and their less, I think fundamentally it's still sort of now an iconic building in New York, and it drives a wide range of New Yorkers.

1:25:02And truthfully, we like that. It's business people, it's tourists, it's young kids from the Upper West Side. It's not super sexy Soho. So okay, but like it is a range. And if you come to New York or you've been to New York or you work in New York or you live in New York, you go through there. And we like that sort of audience. We like to do things that are fun for a wide net. So I like it. I'm all about it. I love you being a support to answer that question because I feel it's a really talked about restaurant. It's kind of what you want. Yeah, no, it's what we want. And you know what? We take it all with stride.

1:25:41We take the negative criticisms seriously, but we take it in stride and the positive criticism. What restaurant trends are you keeping your eye on right now for possible future projects? Well, I mean, there's definitely some genres like Mexican. We've always wanted to. my chef partner you know is from san jose um you know uh you know and we love i mean i love traveling to mexico city of it there's some other um cuisines that we love you know i travel south america a lot and i think there's still a lot of like you know countries and areas and things i go to columbia a lot and like there's just some awesome foods i don't think are represented as much in the right way um you know um i think there's so many interesting things going on right now um there's a lot of different there are a lot of small plates i think it'll be interesting to see some of those genres uh move back into sort of medium or larger boxes but still be innovative and cool i think of like sushi which i love it became so high-end omakase i sort of said other than sugar fish and$250 omakase, where are the like interesting ideas that are$75 or $100 for someone who wants to spend?

1:26:57I haven't seen them. And then Uchi, and they're incredibly talented, are starting to build around. And it's an incredible product. They do an amazing job. And you look at the Blue Ribbon guys and I went there last month and they still put out an incredible, incredible product. And I'm like, there's room in sushi, which is so popular, you know, for something in between. Something you have your eyes on a concept, perhaps. Possibly. I just think there's a lot of room there. So there's definitely still gaps. What about young talent? Any chefs that come to mind that you really enjoy? You know, I mentioned Chintan.

1:27:35I think their whole group is incredible. And I like some of the young chefs they propped up. a chef who, you know, I worked with a while ago, but Ryan Bartlow, who, you know, owns Ernesto's. It's just incredible. He got some good press when he opened Ernesto's, but he's still like just one of the most outstanding and interesting chefs out there in my mind. And I think, you know, Spanish food is one of those foods that restaurateurs love and love to talk about and love to appreciate, but you still haven't seen, you know, Ernesto's, you've got Simono. You don't see the level of things that you would love to see.

1:28:11It's a difficult concept to market at times. I think people, talking more back to the value, there's like people who, customers who definitely don't see the value in that style of dining can be challenging. For sure. And I think they just are not as familiar because I think Spanish food is actually very eclectic. And there's a lot of like uniqueness to it. So it's not easy to define. I love it. On This is Taste, we asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check. Are you ready? Do it. The best fruit? Kumquats. Ooh, I love that.

1:28:47What is a good kumquat in season? What does it taste like? Oh, my God. They're like sour, a little sweet. You know, juice them with a cocktail, saute them. Yeah, it's a great one. I love that call. The worst vegetable? For me, okra. Yeah. Okra's been taking strays, been getting hit all week. People have okra, but like it's tough. Yeah, it's a challenge. The best dessert? Lemon bar. I love that. My Midwestern heart beats. Lemon bar, simple, elegant, sweet, tart. Yeah, and you can elevate it too in cool ways. I love that. The restaurant you are most excited to visit in the world? I'm going to Spain soon, El Cano.

1:29:31Oh, cool. That's on the World's 50 list, right? I've never been, but it's all about like simple fish. Yeah. You know, it's been around a multi-generation. Like, you know, I'm always excited to see that sort of thing, you know, somewhere where it's sort of singular focus a little bit and has a sense of history and family to it. So really excited to try that. Is that like a research trip or a fun trip? What do you do? How do you like to travel? I like all of the above. I'm next and match. It's a trip with friends, but there'll always be some research as long as I need to eat. Okay, this is a big one for you.

1:30:04A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. Not one of mine, but one that I never really got to experience, Maxwell Plums. It was Warner Leroy's restaurant across the street by my father, TGI Fridays. You know, Warner invented, you know, Tavern on the Green, the Russian Tea Room. He was a large and life iconic restaurateur when I was growing up and just an incredibly unique human being. and that was his first baby and I always wanted to see it like in its prime. There was a great piece about that in that New York Magazine throwback restaurants issue about Maxwell Plum. You know, for me, I remember my father, you know, used to talk about, they used to shut down First Avenue with people going back and forth between the two of them.

1:30:50I would have loved to see that and I would have loved to see what it was like. Do you think Mad Men captured the restaurants of that era well? Probably. Yeah. Probably. For better and for worse. For better and for worse. It's so many iconic restaurant scenes in that show. And I think TGF Friday's is in the show at some point. It's a good one. Do you feel like there could be a show based around a restaurant at that time? Period TV show? Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. I mean, one of my favorite movies, Big Night. Oh, of course. You know, that's a little like 1950s, you know, a little. But, I mean, so perfect.

1:31:28I know. I think maybe with the success of the bear, we'll see some period restaurant dramas or some comedies come out. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? We talk Spanish a little, but Mexico City. No way. Mexico City, just love it. Last one, your favorite sandwich. All right, I shouldn't say it, but I kind of like a play of fish. You don't have to say that. You can speak up to the mic. I love it. Filet of fish. You know what? So let's break it down. You got this one. You're a guy who knows, has a good palate. Why do you like that one so much? I mean, you know, in some ways I actually think it's the, like, some of its parts, you know?

1:32:11Yeah. It's one of those things. It's irreverent. Yeah. It's like a tuna melt, which is probably my, like, really iconic favorite. I love, love a tuna melt. But, like, it feels like it shouldn't be right, but it works. Yeah, the sauce, the cheese, hamburger bun, huh? It just works, you know, and when it shouldn't work but it does, it's pretty special. I love it. Michael Simmon, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you for having me.

1:32:47This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.