555: Batali, Bourdain, Booze, and One Incredible Memoir with Laurie Woolever

27:35He was extraordinarily curious. He was a voracious reader. He was a skeptic and he was open to having his mind changed and learning something new about his situation. So all of those things, I think, contributed to his, you know, the quality of the work that he did. I think the loneliness in some ways was a function of his success. I think, and again, this was told to me a lot by people in the interviews for the oral biography, that once upon a time, everyone was in the same production van. Everyone stayed in the same cheap hotels. They shot all day together, and then they might have a drink at the bar of the hotel afterward.

28:19And there was a kind of a group camaraderie. And as he got bigger, as the budgets got bigger, as the shoots got longer, as his life got more complicated, there were all these ways in which he sort of got separated from the group by choice, I think, in some ways. You know, he didn't necessarily he wasn't on the ground for an entire shoot. He had his own car. He would stay at the Four Seasons and everyone else would stay at the Ramada. You know, all of these things where he used to be out with a gang, which probably I believe reminded him in some ways of the kitchen dynamic. Now he was this isolate.

28:53He was the isolated star. And I think that's when you're far away from home and your family and your creature comforts. I think that can be incredibly lonely. Yeah, that self-isolation, it seemed like it was a choice just from reading your work and reading the unauthorized biography as well. And it's kind of stunning to think about when that Parts Unknown was created that way because I think everyone who watched the show assumed the latter, that he was like hanging out with everyone and was like the Anthony Bourdain. But much more complicated than I think the audience would realize. Yeah. And there were times I read about this in the book also.

29:33I went to Sri Lanka with the crew and, you know, there were times when he would say, hey, let's all hang out. Let's let's go up to the hotel roof. And when we're done with the shoot and we're going to get some chicken and whiskey and talking to the people on the crew, that would happen. You know, it seemed to happen on these far away long shoots halfway around the world where everyone, I think, needed a little camaraderie more so than if you were just in Detroit or something. Yeah. That was a great scene, by the way. You almost lose your purse. And it's like written with such pace. It's like it's like a little bit of like this action sequence in the book.

30:08And it's such great writing. Thank you. It felt like he was like a little over that shoot. Maybe that's just the product of doing a 12-day shoot in a country you just don't want to deal with anybody. Because like you think of Tony Bourdain as someone who's like going down back alleys every meal possible. We obviously know that's impossible as anyone. But he wanted like bad KFC in Sri Lanka. Yeah. Yeah, we were in this country with extraordinary food and really interesting flavor combinations and really just sort of obviously influenced by India, but different from India. I was really in love with the food there.

30:45The scene that you're talking about, we had just come from this really intense religious devotional festival. And he and I were in the car being driven out of the scene. And there's this parade literally just eddying all around us, really intense displays of physical devotion. And it's just not something you see every day. And I'm riveted. And he's like, you know, texting with his girlfriend and like looking at page six on his phone. And it's just, you know, it just speaks to like at some point you feel like maybe even if you haven't, you feel like maybe you've seen it all. You're just you're already on to the next thing when life when everything is available to you literally in the whole world.

31:28It's it's nothing is interesting. Please read Laurie's oral biography for more about about Tony's life. And I think that you get into a lot of that with this book about his his isolation and his mental health, which you can only speculate. But it's through the voices of people who know him. You know, it's obvious that you're talking about Sri Lanka, that you ended up on the road with Tony. You left your home. You weren't just on the laptop. And you got to travel with him quite a bit. And I think there's a really memorable scene at the Chateau Marmont. And I think anyone who knows Tony's work, he loved that place.

32:03I believe he didn't have his apartment designed like the Chateau or is that a different hotel? No, yeah. Yeah, it was, I mean, he rented an apartment and the furnishings and the art and the rugs and the carpets were all chosen to look like the Chateau Marmont. Yeah, his New York City apartment to look like Chateau. So he had great devotion to that hotel. But you're there for a People magazine photo shoot. It's with Roy Choi and Josh Homme from Queens of Stone Age. And you're like playing bartender. You're like running errands. There's like a photo shoot. The dynamic seems like really up and down.

32:37I mean, what's it like in this scene at the Chateau with all these characters, all these men? All these men. Yeah, it was – well, in addition to Tony and Josh and Roy, there were probably two dozen people there from People magazine or hired by People magazine to create this effortless-seeming scene of just a couple guys eating sausage and peppers on a balcony at the Chateau Marmont. I mean, it's absurd if you really think about it. But there were a couple of food stylists and there was a video team and there was the photographer and his people. There was the writer. There was somebody else to do an interview for the video.

33:19It was – yeah, it all felt sort of crazy. But I think it's probably much more normal than I realized at the time, that this is what it takes to get a photo for a magazine to promote a book and a television show. It was fun. I remember feeling like I better look busy. I don't really have a job to do here. Yes, I am the co-author of the book, but no one's going to interview me. I think the photographer, out of pity, took a couple of photos of me, but I knew they weren't going to be in the story. Yeah, it was just sort of a chaotic day. It was fun. I mean, Tony, in some ways, was playing host. He had this great big suite at the Chateau Marmont, and so there was room for everyone.

33:58And this big, beautiful couch, I remember, plus the balcony. Roy's business partner, Natasha, was there. And that was great. So it was in some ways really fun and in some ways just sort of overwhelming and absurd. Yeah. People magazine, that era, you know, they're just going over the top of these photo shoots. And I'm sure that's just a symptom of the era that they needed these. It wasn't that long. I mean, it was, I guess it was nine years ago now. Nine years. I guess people, you know, still doing it nine years ago. Laurie, last question about Bourdain. I just want to know, just in reporting the oral biography and speaking to so many people in his life after he dies, what's your general takeaway about Anthony Bourdain's legacy?

34:46Hmm.

35:17thoughts and actions and decisions that were human. And I would like to think that the book, that the oral biography does sort of shed a light on that. It is not a hagiography, but it's also not a, you know, filthy tell. Yeah, that book was done. So, yeah, just that, you know, he was a human being. And it's very tempting to just sort of you know I think about the example of David Lynch right who just died a few weeks ago and there's been this tremendous outpouring of like he was our greatest filmmaker and he was and like yeah I love Twin Peaks I love Mulholland Drive I think his work is great but I he was not he was not a great filmmaker I don't know maybe that's very very controversial to say but he had He made great, beautiful moments.

36:15Right. But it's like everyone glosses over the fact that Inland Empire is unwatchable. You know, that that Lost Highway, it's like, what the fuck? You know, the second season of Twin Peaks is like, come on. You know, granted, he had kind of walked away at that point. But so I think it's the same. It's like you can you can love and respect and admire the work of this person. And I don't think we have to go over the top and immediately be like get into the superlatives and, you know, greatest of all time. We can still, you know, use a slight critical eye. And I think Tony would appreciate that. I can only speculate.

36:50But, you know, I think he found it very embarrassing when people were effusive about his work. You know, he was very quick to correct people and say, you know what, I wasn't a great chef. You know, there's this kind of assumption that people make about someone if they've achieved any level of success at all. So, yeah, I think to keep him as a human being who did a lot of great things. But I'm not in charge of his legacy. No. Well said. Lynch is taking L's today on the podcast. But no, I think it's really well said. And I think the next 20 years of Bourdain content is going to be very interesting because we've been given space from the moment a lot has been written.

37:32But that's the end of Bourdain. I want to ask you a broad question because, you know, we've covered this very rich career and you've been in such unique spaces. And I just read this book, people. It's so it's so well written. And I just mean it like it's not like you've got real talent. And I think part of why this book is so special is because while you're living this life and we haven't even said this word, you have an addiction and you are battling it. It is like your enemy. It is like the big boss in a video game. And you're not quite there to the end of the video game throughout the whole book.

38:13You're in recovery now and you're doing well. So it ends well. Spoiler. I'm alive. Yeah, you're alive. You're here. But Laurie, why was it so important to really reveal what addiction means and what addiction did to your life? Well, it's, you know, it is inextricably bound up with my story of my work and my ups and downs as a writer and as a parent and a spouse and a friend. And I just I think there's no there's nothing to be gained by denying it or explaining it away or pretending that I didn't have a problem with alcohol. But I will say that I didn't really know I had a problem with alcohol until suddenly it was undeniable.

39:09And I'm guessing that other people have had that experience or are having that experience now. And, man, if you can drink responsibly and healthily, like, God bless, you know, what a gift. But there are a lot of people that can't or that are not or who haven't. And I will say that in my own experience, listening to podcasts, reading things, you know, maybe watching certain films or documentaries, seeing other people have this experience and talk about it, for me, it was really helpful and really helped move me toward a place of like, oh, I think I have a problem. Maybe I maybe there's another way for me to live.

39:50So if I can add to that body of work that's out there that can help someone examine if maybe there's another way for them to live that might save their life or make their life better or make their family life better than, you know, why wouldn't why wouldn't I do that? Well, it's a powerful read because you're it's not like you discover 12 step and then it ends like you're you're battling it like you're you're you have enough intelligence and you're you know yourself enough that you have this feeling that something is wrong. And that being in these situations, you know, where alcohol is at the center and just the amount of drinking.

40:27And I think it's important to obviously note that you work in an industry where alcohol is freely flowing everywhere. I think it's gotten better as working food in the industry. But it was really, you know, it was always there. And I think that's really powerful. and I want to ask you about 12-step because I think many listening to our show and folks have written in about it and I think that's beautiful and please do like 12-step is maybe has a stigma um maybe it's not for everyone but it's six for you I'd love to get your take about 12-step and and how that affected you and changed your life?

41:10Yeah, I was very skeptical at first, but I had a friend who I write about in the book, a colleague who had gone through it a few years before me. And I, you know, the day that I decided, well, let me try one of these meetings and see, you know, I'm not going to know promises, but I'm going to try it. And so he told me where to go and what to do. And, you know, there was enough there for me listening to people tell their stories, You know, watching people share the fact that they had one day sober, 10 days sober, you know, two months, nine months, whatever it was. And this thing that people often say at the end of a meeting, which is keep coming back.

41:53And so it was, you know, there are a million little sayings and cliches that one hears in a 12-step meeting or sees in the literature. And they're so simple. A lot of them just as to be kind of you almost want to dismiss them. Right. I mean, one of them is keep it simple, you know. But if you can find a way to like I did to keep going back, it starts to take on some meaning. I don't know. I mean, it's and it's not for everyone. You know, some people, there are a million reasons that people give for not giving it a chance or not sticking with it. And I respect that. And I, you know, one of the other things about the 12-step programs are that it's a program of attraction, not promotion.

42:43Right. So you're never going to see advertisements for this or that anonymous. It's just not how it works. It's not a business. Right. So if people have questions, I talk to them about it. God, I sound like a Scientologist. I mean, like you don't and you don't. And I think it's very helpful. And I'm going to link to a resource in the show notes. So if you're interested in a 12-step program, you feel like you may be experiencing addiction, that link will be there. And just to close this part of the interview, you know, what got you to that meeting that finally stuck? I don't mean like the fall down moment, but like what drove you to that meeting?

43:31I just honestly, it was it was a weekend. I know you were there because I remember seeing I think we had we were on the same flight down. It was a conference in Louisville, Kentucky. Louisville, Kentucky. I was there. You were at one. And you write about a party that we hosted. Yeah. You were there. I remember. It was a big culinary conference in a hotel and, you know, bourbon country. Right. So there was just and there was tons of bourbon and there was tons of everything else. And, you know, I got on the plane that morning in LaGuardia, so hungover and got to the hotel and started drinking. And that was just and that had been a pattern for me for for a long time.

44:14Something about just being so in the thick of it that weekend really. I don't know why it sort of it just it opened my eyes a little bit. And I woke up that Saturday morning with my hands shaking and that was new. And I thought, oh, that's not good. You know, this is I've got all kinds of psychological, emotional evidence that maybe this is not great. But now I'm starting to see the physical evidence. And that might have been the straw. Yeah. And I just I drank like an absolute fish that weekend. And I missed my flight home on Monday morning because I think I went to bed at like 4 a.m. on Sunday.

44:50You know, and I had like a 6 a.m. flight. I know something really stupid. So it was just like, huh. Like, you know, I've been taking those quizzes online for months. Am I an alcoholic? It's like, if you're taking the quiz, you're an alcoholic. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. So, yeah, all of that. I do want to say one more thing, which it wasn't entirely linear for me. I think that people have this idea that you go to your first AA meeting and the clouds part and you never drink again and you're all in 100 percent. And I don't know that that's – I think that does happen for some people. For me, it was – I was going to the meetings and I was still getting stoned.

45:27I wasn't drinking. And, you know, I thought maybe I can just get away with getting stoned. And if I was stoned at a meeting, I wouldn't talk. But if I, you know, and I knew, I mean, it was clear that it's like this isn't real sobriety. You're just not drinking. So it took me 18 months to really, for me, commit to it, to the whole thing and to get over my aversion to this idea of a higher power. I think that's what really takes a lot of people out is this idea that it's a Christian or it's a God-centered program. Higher power can be a cup of coffee. You know, it can be a tree in your neighborhood.

46:05It can be, you know, your your concept of human cooperation. It doesn't have to be capital G God. Yeah. Lori, the book is amazing. Karen Feeding is the title. And please, again, I'm going to link to the show notes by the book. It's terrific. I can't leave you without asking about a book that you worked on that we published here that we've mentioned the show a number of times. Richard Hart Bread. Really terrific book. You know, I would say it's like intermediate to advanced. It's got some real deep dives. I mean, it's a serious, serious bread book. What was that like working with Richard Hart on this on this terrific cookbook?

46:41It was a trip. It was so much fun. I will say, despite having gone to cooking school and worked in various capacities around food, I had never in my life made sourdough bread before I started working on this book. So, yes, maybe it's intermediate to advanced, but I was a raw beginner when I first started, and I screwed up. My first starter grew like wavy filaments of mildew. Yeah. I just didn't— Not good for flavor. Not good for flavor. No, it was pretty bad. So it was fun. It was a long process. We started working together in the summer of 2021 and the book just came out at the end of 2024. So these things always take a long time.

47:23I think it was well worth the time that we put into it. I got to go to Copenhagen three times to work with Richard in the bakery at HeartBake, the original Heart Bakery in Copenhagen in Fredericksburg. And I just I learned I learned so much. I laughed my ass off. Richard is is just a delightful, singular person. So full of knowledge, but couldn't be less pretentious about it. You know, he really he wants everybody to make bread. He has no patience for the, you know, microclimate food nerds that are getting into, you know, deep dives into the science. He's just like, it's just flour and water. You'll see.

48:09When you talk to him, you'll see. Yeah, yeah. He's going to be on the show soon. And I just want to, I mean, getting his voice was so important. He did a terrific job getting that down. And, I mean, how do you tackle a bread book while being, I mean, you went to culinary school, but, like, you're not a bread baker. What's that like just for you as a collaborator to work with this like pretty legendary baker on his big book? Yeah, I had to really get immersed. You know, the first time I went to Copenhagen, I was there for, I don't know, 17 days or something. And I was in the bakery every day and I'm just walking around recording our conversations, writing down notes, asking a million questions.

48:47You know, my hands are in the dough. I learned to shape loaves. you know it really was I had to truly get immersed because I did not know anything and I think that was actually a great position to be in as a writer because I wasn't shorthanding anything with the oh everyone knows that well I didn't know it you know so maybe the writer doesn't know it either so yeah it was a full immersion and then of course he was in Copenhagen and I live in New York and so we were just on Zoom you know every day for weeks and weeks and weeks at a time just talking working through things you know I baked so much bread in my kitchen.

49:22And that also was like, I didn't need a big professional oven or any special equipment to make 99.9 % of the bread. The panettone, you kind of do need. That's a wild, wild recipe that you did a panettone. Damn, respect. You do need a few additional things for that. But, you know, if you want to take that journey, it's very rewarding. It's the best panettone I've ever had. I bet. Are you still baking bread? Do you have a practice? I do, yeah. Cool. Yeah, I have a little, I don't, it's not as much. I'm not going through bags and bags of flour a week anymore, but I do have a little starter. Got a little starter, you're still, what's the name?

50:02Do you have a name for it? I do not have a starter. You're not one of those, yeah. No. I didn't expect you to do it at all. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu, Montreal. A Restaurant Story, the 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.

50:48The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner.

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51:59It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Well, Laurie, on This is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check.

52:40Now, this has been a pretty serious conversation. But if you know Lori Wolver, there's no funnier person online or IRL. You come to play with these. I didn't mean to set you up like that, but I just want you're very funny. The best fruit. Honeybell tangerines. Do you know these? No, I don't actually. They are. They're so specific. They're so good. I get them. I get a box every year from my boyfriend, and they are just – if you hate oranges, if you hate citrus fruit, you will still love these. They are juicy, delicious. I think they're wildly expensive. Yeah, yeah. Well, a gift. It's a gifting fruit.

53:21Right. Gifting fruit. Okay, the worst vegetable. Ugh, yellow summer squash. Why? Why do you exist? Worst. It's like, let's just pack it full of seeds and water. Pith. It's always there at the farmer's market. It's just like smiling up at you. They're like, it's 25 cents a pound. Please take it. I know. What's your typical breakfast? I do a scrambled egg. Actually, it's sort of a flat omelet. This is like I've been told this is gross. Flat omelet, cottage cheese, jam, or maple syrup. I mean, it's working for me. You're obviously protein maxing a bit. Yeah. That's cool. But like it's giving a little blintsy.

54:10Yes. Giving a little blintsy. I called it. I think you and I did a piece during COVID about breakfast. And I referred to it as the poor man's blintz, which was controversial. Listen, I am the poor man. I can't afford to go out for breakfast. Are you kidding me? Yeah. It's all the best parts of a blintz. Yeah. It sounds amazing. The best dessert. Coconut cake. Wow. Like a classic Peninsula Grill, South Carolina coconut cake. Three or four layers with the, you know, the filling that's different than the icing. Yeah. I love that. I make that a couple times a year. It's a big commitment of time. And then you've got a cake in your house that you have to deal with.

54:56And I can't stop eating it. It's my absolute favorite. The coconut element, like that's got to be key. How are you buying coconut for this? I just get the whatever's on sale at the supermarket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Straight talk. Okay. Yeah. It's just the technique of it. Yeah. It's the technique. It's all the elements together. It's the cake that's got to be a certain consistency. It's the creamy. You know, basically you're making a custard as the filling. And that's got coconut in it. And then the icing is a cream cheese icing. And then also it's got to, I think it's got to cure for like two days.

55:31It's much better after it's been in the world for two days than it is on day one. Yeah, no doubt. Oh, man. Amazing. Restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. Okay, I have two answers here. The first one is the original M. Wells Diner in Long Island City. Of course, M. Wells, I think, you know, there was another iteration. I think they just closed in Long Island City. I went once. It was great, but I didn't have that kind of love connection that a lot of people had to it. I really loved the original diner. It was so – look it up if you don't know it. It was unbelievable. The other one is Kopp's Canteen, which was the restaurant I worked in as a teenager in my hometown.

56:10It was the nicest restaurant in town. It was where everybody went. My friend and classmate, Kevin Kopp, it was his family's restaurant. And it was where I got my start loving restaurants, even though I think I was kind of a miserable bus girl. But just the whole vibe of restaurants, I learned it there. I love it. What's the special there? What's good there? Chicken fricassee. That was their signature dish, and you could get a small or a large portion. And this is upstate New York? This is upstate New York, yeah, Chittenango, New York. Yeah. Wow. What did you learn? And from that initial experience working at this restaurant, what drew you into the lifestyle?

56:51I learned how to carry a tray on my shoulder. I learned how to really efficiently clear a table. I learned how to interact with the people in the kitchen to get what I wanted and not be annoying and stay out of the way. First thing I ever learned, and I think about this every time I get a delivery, is I learned how to break down a box. I had never – I was like, what are you talking about? And it was just like, here's how you break down a box and here's why we do it. And here's a stack of them and they're filthy. So, you know, good luck. Real life skills for real. Yeah. For real, for real. Yeah, absolutely.

57:27And, you know, how to move around a dining room safely and efficiently and without attracting attention to yourself. How to flirt with the bartender to get him to give you drinks when you're 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your son's 16. Does he have a restaurant job lined up? He doesn't. He's such a jock that his jobs are all like he's coaching a football team and he's coaching a baseball team. And that is his wheelhouse. Yeah, I'm sure he's getting up life skills there, too. Absolutely. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food. All right. I have a couple, and I'll just go through them quickly.

58:06I couldn't really choose one, so I'll just give you the top four. And I feel like— Four? Damn. All right. All right. We can do top four. I'll just do quick. Laura, you get top four. You're VIP here. All right. You're VIP. Mexico City, Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Copenhagen. I mean, yeah, you can't— There are others. I mean, there's Lyon. There's Paris. There's a million of them, but those are the four that I have had extraordinary experiences in. If you've ever been lonely in a hotel over far away, you're going to recognize Laurie's writing about Tokyo. It's a really special couple sequences in the book.

58:43No spoilers. It's pretty wild. Please read this book. I'm going to keep saying that. Last one. Your favorite sandwich. Oh, man. There is a sandwich at Ernesto's. And I should say, I am working on the cookbook with Chef Ryan Bartlow of Ernesto's. So I am deep in this sandwich right now, working on writing the recipe. It's called Bikini Hemingway. and it is like it's like the best uh monte cristo slash uh grilled cheese slash i don't even know panino um it's a it's got um it's got cheese it's got like a chorizo kind of whip almost like a very soft sort of mixture of chorizo and other actually it's not even chorizo it's a different kind of sausage um but you you know in the book it's probably going to be chorizo because that's what you can get your hands on.

59:35It's got shrimp. It's brittle. It's got a slick of olive oil. It's got crunchy sea salt. It is like everything you want in a sandwich. How do you land that plane for a home cook? Because you've got these like really big ideas. You're whipping sausage. But like this is the skill of you. This is like why this is like a really important job. Like, how do you take that emotion you just gave and, like, write a recipe that somebody in somewhere town is going to make one day? I think, you know, probably all the adjectives that I just used and a few more. You have a beautiful photo. And you give people a couple of options because, you know, it's a real turnoff to be like, I've never even heard of that sausage.

1:00:24I'm not going to make this. You know, but you say, like, well, at the restaurant we make it with chistora sausage, but you can use chorizo. And here's how you do it. So give people a couple of options, but that the essence of the thing remains the same, which is a crispy, chewy, rich sandwich. And let them feel that they can make it even if they're living in a place where they can't get their hands on all the exact ingredients. Well said. And you do a podcast. Yes. What's the status? How's Chris? I haven't seen him in years. Chris is great. What's the podcast? What's it called? The podcast is called Carb Face for Radio.

1:01:00We've been doing it for a very long time. Tony Bourdain was our opening executive producer, by which I mean he said, you guys can call me executive producer. I'm not going to lift a finger. But he did come in twice and we recorded some stuff with him. So he appears on the first couple episodes of the podcast. And we've been doing it for a long time now. We started in our first episode, I think, came out in early 2018. And we took some time off. But, yeah, it's great. It's fun. And, you know, it's a labor of love. I've never made a penny on it and probably never will. But we get to talk to fun people or we just talk to ourselves.

1:01:37The format has changed throughout the years, but I really enjoy doing it. Yeah, it's a fun listen. I'm a fan of the show. I remember when it launched. It was a little bit of inspiration for launching this show, to be honest. We launched in 18 as well. And I was like, Laurie's doing a cool thing with Chris. I got to get on that podcast game. Laurie Wolver, what an amazing conversation. I love this book. I hope you come back. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you. It's great to be here.

1:02:10Rebecca Flint-Marx, welcome back. How are you? I'm doing okay. Thank you. How are you doing, Matt? Well, I'm great, Rebecca. You know, I'm actually really great because we're going to talk about Spring Cookbooks. and you are the editor of Eater at Home, which means you are the cookbook editor by default at Eater and you have just published such a terrific, you know, recap, roundup, dissertation. All of the above. All of the above on the current season and we're going to talk about so many titles and I just love it. You've got great sensibility. You look at big publishers, you look at, you know, smaller presses and it's just a great survey.

1:02:48Before we get to that though, So I just want to know, where have you been dining out? Well, so I was just in San Francisco for a week, actually. And I lived in San Francisco for four years and try to go back every year or two. And yeah, we ate very, very well when we were out there. Lots of great places. One place we always go when we're there is a wonderful bakery in the inner Richmond called Bread Belly. Do you know Bread Belly? I was there on Sunday. No kidding. I was there on Sunday. I just missed you then. Oh, my God. Tell me about it. Oh, my God. So their egg salad sandwich is, you know, the sandwich?

1:03:27I didn't have it, but I know of it. Okay. Next time you're there, you need to get this sandwich. Like, I have a photo. This was taken probably two years ago, the first time my husband and I went there. I have a photo of him eating this sandwich. I don't think I've ever seen him look this happy in real life. Like, it's just the best sandwich. Yeah, it's so good. But all their baked goods are wonderful. We kind of had like a little baked good Fantasia when we were there because I also really wanted to try Loquat. Yeah. Yeah, which is a great bakery that's in the old 20th Century Cafe space. R.I.P.

1:03:58R.I.P. Yeah, man, that was a great place. That cake, I had that. Oh, man. Yeah, but their stuff was amazing. We went to Butter and Crumble, which is a new place in North Beach. Stood in line for half an hour. Met a really fascinating young woman who had a cookbook club, so we gossiped about that for a while. It was really interesting. Was she thrilled to meet you and knowing your job? She was. And we started getting into all the drama that can happen with cookbook clubs. And it's really fascinating. That is a story. You can take that one. You just said it. But you're like, let me, you give me some ideas here.

1:04:28Yeah, no, where there's people, there's drama. So that was great. I went to a new restaurant in the Presidio called Delita, which is from a couple of, do you know this place? I wanted to go. I'm nodding because you went many places. Oh, really? OK. Fabulous place. Loved it. Beautiful, beautiful setting. Very good food. Also went to a really interesting place in North Beach called, okay, it's either Hilda and Jesse or Jesse and Hilda. I always forget the order. Okay. One of those two. Yeah. Fun place. Really interesting place. And then I went to Rintaro, which is one of my favorites. It's in the Mission.

1:05:05Wonderful place. Japanese food. Yeah, I went there. Where else did we go? Bait Rima, which is more Middle Eastern. Yeah. Yeah. This is a thing we always eat very, very, very well. I mean, the inner Richmond on fire. Yeah. So much great stuff there. Yeah. It was like really popping. Yeah. Thank you for the San Francisco survey. That was quite unexpected. Yeah. No. Well, it's funny because like I don't eat out that much here in New York. I really hate to say that, but I'm usually cooking at home to be entirely honest. Well, that's in your title. Yes. You're an eater at home. So, you know, most of your colleagues are out there, you know, checking out the restaurants.

1:05:44But your remit is to focus on the in-home cooking. And it's just tremendous work. I love what you're doing. You're always thinking about the culture of cooking. And, you know, I just love it. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. It's fantastic. Let's talk about the season broadly. And I know this is not like an easy question to answer, but I know you'll give it a try. You know, are there any broad, I would say maybe themes or impulses that you're seeing in this spring cookbook season? You know, theme-wise, it's, I would say, and I've seen this before as well, but I've been noticing it a lot this season.

1:06:22There's a lot of emphasis on family. There's a lot of emphasis, and what I mean is family is extremely present in the stories that cookbook writers are telling about their own lives, their own cuisine, how they've adapted the food they grew up with to the way they cook now. It's about, you know, making time to spend with your loved ones. And I would say there's also, you know, and again, I would not say this is new, but I think as ever, a lot of cookbook authors are really conscious of trying to make cooking easier and more accessible. And that even goes for chef cookbooks, which are famously not necessarily that accessible.

1:07:04And on a much more micro note, it's this is kind of a funny thing to notice. People's fingernails look amazing. Oh, my God. Like, everybody's getting their manicures, like, on point before they do their shoots. And I know this is, again, not a new thing. We actually did a story about nail art and cookbooks last year, I believe. It was Bettina McAlentil who wrote this story. And this is a trend I think is continuing. And more power to it. People's hands look amazing right now. I love that micro note. And I so agree just being here at Penguin Random House, you know, in the weeds a bit with the book publications.

1:07:41You know, it seems, you know, food styling is at an all time high. Yes. And that includes hands and includes the way food is being presented. Yes. We're not we're seeing less and less of those, you know, cloth napkins with the whoopsies with like the random spice thrown on the napkin. I mean, that does happen. It's fine. But like there's it's just something about the photography in this season. I'm just I see a lot of documentary, too. Yes. So much documentary. Everything is quite vivid. There is more mess. And I mean that in a good way. It's kind of an orchestrated mess, I would say. But I think it's definitely more trying to broadcast the feeling of like you're at home and you're cooking.

1:08:19Have fun. Don't worry. Love it. Make a mess. Make a mess. It's OK. And, you know, as like the professional with the name on the cover, it's OK to mess up once in a while. Exactly. Let me ask you, how do you put the list together? You know, we work here at Penguin Random House, so we see all of our own titles. And, of course, I see a lot of other titles for the show, and we cover the world of cookbooks here. But, you know, there's so many. And I really respect you at Eater and your colleagues for putting in the work. Each capsule is written and tested and not all the recipes, but some of the recipes are cooked.

1:08:52And how do you, like, come up with the finalists? It's like a really nice list. Oh, thank you. Yeah, so where we start is I have, I and my associate editor, Kat Thompson, we have a lot of cookbook publishing publicity contacts. So we're always getting emails from them. And of course, you know, a couple of months, three or four months before the season begins, we start getting, you know, emails in earnest saying, here's the cookbooks we have coming up this season. So we're constantly, we have a cookbook document. It's a spreadsheet that we keep. So that's our master list of just, like, all the books we're aware of, their dates, who wrote them, et cetera, et cetera, the publishers.

1:09:36So we really keep updating that list really throughout the year. And so then once we have that list, and we really try to get as broad a survey as possible. But that said, there's a lot that comes out every year, and we're just not going to get all of it. there's like probably hundreds of cookbooks that come out every season. Oh, more. Yeah. Many more. Absolutely. Yeah. And so we do try, though, to keep like a good survey of publishers. So it's not just like the big five, for example. So we start from that list. And then we basically, I look through that list and I think, well, what's interesting to me?

1:10:13And then we sort of like put it to the staff writers as well. We show everybody the list and say, just highlight the things you're interested in reviewing. After that, we go through that list. What's important to me is to, you know, choose work that people have expressed a real interest in. Because if you're asking staff writers who are already very busy to review something, you want them to be invested in it. But then the other thing that we really have to keep in mind is like we want a good balance. We want a good mix. You know, we we want different cultures represented. We want different backgrounds represented, different cuisines, different approaches to cooking so that it's really trying to find that good balance and then mixing that with like, can we find writers who can review all these books?

1:11:02and this season actually I think this is the most books we've ever included on our list, it's 20 books Yeah, I have the whole list in front of me and it's amazing and you really do, you capture exactly what you said, the range of voices and the size of the publisher is all represented I want to get into some specific titles and really, I'm not picking any that I like personally in particular, I just wanted to get your take on some titles and we can always talk about more titles. I have all this in front of me. I don't think we're gonna get to all 20, but we'll do our best. Ghana to the World. Yeah.

1:11:40So that's Eric Ajipong. He is a chef who was born and raised in New York City, but his parents are both from Ghana. He wrote this book with Korsha Wilson, who's a well-known food writer. So it's about basically his version of like, you know, his cuisine, like Ghanaian food, but then also the foods that like influenced him when he was growing up, the foods he likes to cook now. I think he's probably best known as a chef who's done a lot of work with the Food Network. He was also on, oh, I forget which season of Top Chef was. It was whatever 2018 was, but he was a finalist on that show. And he got attention for the dish that he wanted to cook as a finalist, which was a dish that represented the transatlantic slave trade and its effect on different ingredients, you know, around the world.

1:12:33And so this book is, it's a very beautiful book. He goes to Ghana. There's a lot of reporting from Ghana. The photographs are absolutely gorgeous, but it's interesting because his book, you know, it's another book about West African cuisine, which is something we've been seeing a little more of in the past two years, which is wonderful. Yawande Kamalafe had her book, Everyday Lagos. We also had In Bibi's Kitchen, Hawa Hasan. So this is really adding to that conversation. It's a very personal book. His story really comes through in its pages. And you really get a sense of like the foods he grew up with and the foods he's trying to learn more about and the foods that he really wants to, you know, educate more people about this cuisine and this region of the world in particular.

1:13:22So, yeah, it's a beautiful book. Beautiful book. And we're going to have Eric on the show. And I can't wait to have a conversation with him about his really terrific story. And definitely shout out to Korsha Wilson. What a tremendous writer. Love this book. So we have a lot of chef books that have popped up. A few include Scott Clark, Title Coastal, Nicole Rucker, Fat and Flower, Calvin Ang, Salt, Sugar, MSG, Rawia Bashara from Tannarine in Brooklyn. and that's like a wide range of cuisines and styles of restaurants. And I just am really heartened to see chefs get books. I think there was like a little bit of a pause in publishing.

1:13:58They certainly were coming out, but there wasn't as many. And I mean, another tough question, but do you see anything that ties these chef books together? Anything you're seeing about chef books in particular? Yeah, they're more accessible, honestly, in a word. I mean, they're still very much chef cookbooks, But like I think I think a lot of people, myself included, for a long time, sort of had this image of the chef cookbook as being something that you're never going to use at home. Like you might read through it like you read through, like, I don't know, the Hammacher Schlemler catalog, if that's still a thing.

1:14:31Oh, my God. I love that reference. I get it. You can barely pronounce it. Yeah. Hammacher Schlemmer. Hammacher Schlemmer, I think, or Schlemmer. You did it. OK. There's a lot of sort of like spit involved with saying that name. In any case, yeah, where you're like, this is totally aspirational. I'm never going to get an immersion circulator, right? But, you know, what we're really seeing this season, you know, previous seasons as well, is like chefs are kind of like letting their hair down a little bit. And they're cooking food that's very personal to them. So like Calvin Eng's book, for example, Salt Sugar MSG, you know, he's a chef who has a restaurant called Bonnie's, which is in Brooklyn.

1:15:11But he makes it very clear in his introduction, this is like a home cooking cookbook. And that really comes through in his recipes. He talks a lot about his family. So again, you get the theme of family that's coming into this. Scott Clark's book Coastal, which is a book I personally reviewed, similar story. You know, he talks a lot about his upbringing. He talks a lot about just like the food that sort of shaped him. I've cooked out of this book. You know, there's definitely certain touches where you're like, yeah, a chef, a chef made this. But but altogether, it's a book you can really cook from.

1:15:47And it's also a book that's just like it's very sort of rough human in its way. Like it's it's really it's structured as like a California road trip down the central coast. So you really get a feel for like it's kind of a weird word to use in this context, but just the textures of, you know. I love this book. I had Betsy Andrews on. She'll be in a future episode who wrote the book with Scott. And we had a long conversation about the photography in the book and really showing Scott's, you know, fine dining background, you know, really reflected in his more casual. Big air quotes there because he's a chef.

1:16:20But his style of cooking. Yeah, totally. It's a really fun book and it's a beautiful book. And I love how irreverent it is. I'm always looking for irreverence in a cookbook. Another one of those books, Nicole Rucker's Fat and Flour. Sure. You know, it has an interesting story because she in her introduction, she talks about how she kind of burned out on baking for a time. And, you know, the cookbook that she's given us now is very much, you know, it's very like rigorous in the sense that like these are recipes that are going to work. But at the same time, it's fun. There's just a lot of fun to her book.

1:16:58Like here's a bunch of different spins on the chocolate chip cookie. Here's a bunch of different spins on banana bread, which is, you know, after my own heart. So, yeah. Does she add chocolate chips? I'm trying to remember. I think in one of them there is some from chocolate. Oh, multiple banana breads. Oh, that's the whole thing. Yes. There's many banana breads. I love it. I mean, I only say chocolate chips because it's quite the polarizing choice. And I don't understand why. Chocolate and banana, like, what is it? Same. Why would you complain? Some people do complain, though. Well, they can go play in their corner of the playgrounds away from everyone else.

1:17:30I don't care. Yep, yep, yep. What about the Tenerine book? What drew you to that one? Well, I love Tenerine as a restaurant. I remember first going there when it was in its original tiny, tiny location where you would—this is in Bay Ridge neighborhood in Brooklyn—where you would just wait. You would wait. Oh, I remember. Yeah, right? You were there. Oh, sure, yeah. Yeah, and so I've been loyal to this place for a long time. It's a Palestinian restaurant. Absolutely delicious. So Rawia Bashar, who is the chef and owner of Tenerene, she had actually had a cookbook out a few years ago. This is an updated version of that.

1:18:05So it is kind of more of, you know, what you would love and expect from her first cookbook, which is like Palestinian home cooking. It's wonderful. It's a beautiful book. And yeah. Wonderful. Well, let's move on and talk about a single book. And it's close to me because I know the author. it's Pakistan by Miriam Jelani and I think Miriam is such a terrific journalist she's written several stories for Taste and I've gotten to know her over the years going back five years and I had a little behind the scenes access to the journey of this book and wow it really really turned out to be a remarkable book and when I saw that you put it on your list I was like wow you have great taste there it's a terrific book what drew you to this one?

1:18:50I mean it was an easy draw for me you know, as she says in her introduction, I think this is like the first major cookbook about Pakistani food, you know, and that really excited me because, you know, as she points out in the book, most of what American readers are familiar with is Indian food. They don't understand what Pakistani food is or they think it's the very same thing as Indian food. And while there is some overlap, you know, because, you know, for obvious reason, Pakistan also has its own distinct cuisine that is shaped by, you know, the fact that the country shares borders with like Afghanistan, Iran, China, you know.

1:19:34And so you get all these like influences that are coming in over the borders, which has resulted in a very distinct and also varied cuisine. There's an enormous amount of reporting in this book. It's really impressive. She, you know, did a lot of homework, let's just say, on this book. And so you're going to get things that you're just not going to get in other cookbooks. And it's, yeah, it's a, again, I keep saying it's a beautiful book, but it really is a beautiful book. It was put together with a lot of care. And that really comes through on the page. So I was thrilled we could include this book.

1:20:11Wonderful review of this book just then. And, you know, the Repertage Photography is terrific. And I agree with you. It's a real journalistic book. Yes. Not every cookbook is and doesn't have to be. No. But this one is one that the work was put in. And there's these large sidebars that really connect the dots in a great way. Yeah. Rebecca, tell me a little bit about third culture cooking. It's a term that we've written about, we've heard. And now there's a whole book, Third Culture Cooking, and it's on your list. Tell us about it. Yeah. So this is by Zainab Issa. She was an editor at Bon Appetit.

1:20:45And this, again, this is like a very personal story, which is something we're seeing in many cookbooks right now. This is her very personal story. She grew up in New Jersey. Her parents, she has like African and Indian heritage, basically. Her parents were born and raised, I believe, in Tanzania. So but again, she was she was born here and grew up here. Third culture refers to this is a term that was coined, I think, possibly by sociologists. But don't quote me on that. But what it describes is, you know, kids who grow up not like in their country of origin, but in an adopted country where they kind of develop their own like, you know, culture, essentially.

1:21:31So it's neither the culture of the country of origin nor the culture of the adopted country, but it's sort of a blend of the two. So this cookbook really conveys this because, you know, you're getting food in here that is like very much like from Zainab's family. You know, there's like what you might call like Indian recipes, for example. But then there's also like recipes that are homages to restaurants she loves in Bushwick. There's just a lot of different foods that, you know, are very particular to her and what she likes to eat. And, you know, the influences she grew up with from her family, from various cultures.

1:22:08So it's a really fun book. It's very lively. You know, the food looks absolutely delicious. It's just, yeah, it's a lot of fun. I mean, and my takeaway from this is kind of like, I wish more cookbooks were fun. This one is. But I mean, covering like very important, heavy topics, you know, stories of immigration, stories of othering, you know, these big topics. But and telling that story from a really unique point of view in a singular voice, but also bringing in the joy and making these recipes very much appealing and cookable. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. Like this book, it's I would say it's very accessible.

1:22:47It's like food you sort of like look forward to making or look forward to giving an excuse to make, you know. Well, let's go to some more books. I mean, let's talk about we have many titles to cover. Let's talk about By Heart by Haley Catalano. It's somebody who we know here at Taste and we've definitely been watching her feed. It's remarkable. But now she finally has a book. Yeah. And it's I will say the cover of this book is my favorite cover of the season. Hands down. It is illustrated. I wish there was more illustration in cookbooks. We're working on that. Really? Oh, there's it's it's it's happening.

1:23:21Oh, good. I'm really glad to hear that because I think it's like something that's so underutilized. I also just love working with illustrators in my own work. So I love seeing like them out in the wild doing beautiful things. There's a book not on your list called Sesame that has a great illustrated cover. Oh, really? I'll shut that one out. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. I'll have to check that out. Yeah. So Haley Catalano, she is a TikToker. I should mention here, I'm not on TikTok, but I know from my colleagues who are in the loop that she is a big deal on TikTok. Very much so. You know, she has she's very approachable.

1:23:55She does a lot of really like fun, approachable food, I would say. It's like things you could make on a weeknight. It's food that is like, you know, fresh and inspired, you know, but isn't necessarily going to like make you be like, oh, my God, I have to like run out, you know, to like three different stores and, you know, buy 20 different things. It's very much about like using what you have and using like, you know, simple, basic, but very smart techniques. Yeah. And again, I keep coming back to the cover, but it's it's it's sort of like this breath of fresh air, I would say. And I will say, you know, since hearing about her book, I have watched like you dipped into the reels, dipped into her reels.

1:24:37And yeah, I can see why she's so popular. She's like she's, you know, a lot of TikTok people, whether they're food or not, like I think they think they're being approachable. They are not approachable. Yeah. She actually is. I like that. And I think that's why folks like her so much. And I've heard about people cooking directly from her TikToks and her inspiring people to actually cook, which you can't say about every TikTok, you know, chef or cookbook author. You know what I'm saying? Oh, absolutely. a few more titles. I mean, you've got so many, and of course the link is in the show notes, to the great Eater piece about the spring cookbook season.

1:25:14So tell me a little bit about Setting a Place for Us by Hawa Hassan. Eliza and I spoke about it in our spring preview, our first of a few, and we called it out as one we were really looking forward to, and you as well have agreed. Yeah, yeah. So Hawa Hassan's new book, she takes a very interesting approach. which again, you still see some of this like reportage that you're seeing in other books this season as well, because what she does, she looks at the cooking from eight different countries, countries that like, you know, have all experienced like a lot of upheaval and war, but also a lot of rebuilding and a lot of community.

1:25:56And so what she's doing is just like looking at like different foods from these various countries, but also telling the stories of the people who are making the food, you know, the people she's meeting along the way. So you get this really interesting portrait of not just food, but like, you know, what it's like to live in these countries, you know, because I think a lot of times we as Americans look at, you know, quote unquote, war-torn countries, and we really don't have any idea of like what life might actually be like there. And so she really sort of it's yeah, it's I mean, I hate to use the word enlightening because that sounds like, you know, it's this kind of like self-righteous.

1:26:39No, that's not her tone at all. Okay, good. Yeah, but it is enlightening. It's enlightening to read these stories and to see this food. And I think, you know, one thing that I really admire about it, and she did this with her previous cookbook, In Bibi's Kitchen. She followed like a similar sort of model for that book. but I really love books and Pakistan does this as well that really take this wide context to the food that they're giving you the recipes for you know and not everybody is successful at that but when people are it makes a very special book and this is a special book what careful hands you know how Hassan has especially with MBB's Kitchen and now this book Reporter's Eye great storytelling and repertage photography that you know is really important when telling these stories And it's a remarkable work.

1:27:25Yes. I'm really happy it's being published this season. A couple more. Sweet Farm by Molly Yeh. Oh, OK. This is fun. This is one of the most fun books that's come out this season. I got to chat with Molly. We'll have an episode later on. And I got to spend a lot of time with this book. I fully agree. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Like, I haven't baked out of it yet, but I've bookmarked so many pages. One thing that I will forever love about this book is Molly has an entire section on the cookie salad. Yeah, which is I correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know if this is a specifically Minnesota thing or specifically.

1:28:03Well, she doesn't live in Minnesota. She lives in northern Minnesota. Oh, she does. That's right. Yeah. I get this confused. She's like was in North Dakota before. That's it. And she moved. She's now in northern Minnesota. And as a Midwesterner, I'll say the cookie salad is living its best life in the state of Michigan. Is it really? Not only Minnesota thing. I agree fully that salad section made me, made my heart sing. Oh, my God. And also, I grew up in Michigan. I had no idea about cookie salads. How did I not? Different part? Oh, well, Ann Arbor. You're Ann Arbor. I'm Kalamazoo in the West Side.

1:28:34Oh, well, okay. Say no more. No. I'm joking. I know. We can go off mic about our Michigan diets. Yeah. Yeah, but I was I shamefully was like completely unfamiliar with the cookie salad. But thanks to this book, I now see a few in my future. But yeah, her desserts are always they're just a lot of fun. And she does a lot of things like that you wouldn't necessarily expect to see in a dessert cookbook. I think one of the things that's always sort of distinguished her cooking is, you know, her own Jewish and Chinese heritage that that always like comes into her books. And this is no exception. But she's also folding in this like very Midwestern element.

1:29:11But yeah, you know, it's funny. I was just talking about her sprinkle cake recipe. I love it. It's just and I've never actually made this cake, but I plan to because it's just it invites you to make this cake and like probably eat the whole thing in one or two sittings. It's a bunch of recipes I want to make. But also what I like about Molly's books, they're hilarious. Yeah. She's a very funny writer and it's very sharp. It's not just like joke after joke. it's like sharp stuff. And also like she's telling the story of her husband's sugar beet farm, which produces sugar, which is what, you know, baked goods are made out of.

1:29:45So there's like that connective tissue. Circle of life. Yeah, exactly. In Molly's world. And I love the, you know, the way the recipes are written. Yeah. And again, yeah, that's sort of a reverence as well. One of the my favorite details in this book so far is she has a recipe for a bed of roses cake. And the bed of roses refers to all these beautiful buttercream roses. So I'm flipping through their SESAPE expecting to find this tutorial on how to make buttercream roses. And she just flat out says, like, look, you don't need to see photos of my clumsy hands. She's like, go to YouTube, Google it, you'll find it.

1:30:16And so I did. And yeah, you can find a bunch of great tutorials about buttercream roses. That's pure Molly. So thank you, Molly. Yeah, it's such a fresh voice. I love it in cookbooks. A few more. I really like Gersha. And from the publisher, quote, a triumphant celebration of Ethiopian Jewish culture. Tell me a little bit about this book. Yeah, so it's a great book. Okay, so Biji Barhani, many apologies if I'm not pronouncing her name correctly. She's the owner and chef of a Harlem restaurant called Zion Cafe. So she has a really interesting story. Her family and she herself, she was born in Ethiopia as part of the Beta Israel community.

1:30:59That is a community of Ethiopian Jews. While she was growing up, her family fled political violence in Ethiopia to Sudan and eventually made it over to Israel. They made their aliyah to Israel, where she grew up, basically. She grew up on a kibbutz, I think, for part of that time, and then eventually decided she wanted to move to New York, moved to New York, opened this restaurant. This is a fascinating book, not only because it's just a great cookbook. Like, the recipes look incredibly delicious. Like, I really want to go home after talking to you about this and make injera. But there's so many recipes and she really weaves in.

1:31:37It's not just Ethiopian recipes, but it's like there's Israeli influences. There's like a schnitzel recipe in this book because schnitzel is popular in Israel, for example. There's a lot of great recipes that, again, look fairly approachable for the home cook, but then she weaves in really this like these great portraits of like family members of hers you know who some of them are still alive some of them are not but she also in doing so just illuminates the story of like the beta israel community and ethiopian jewry which is something that does not in my opinion get enough attention i think i think there is something like a hundred thousand ethiopian jews in the world not very many in this country but this is what i love seeing in cookbooks though it's like we have this cookbook that is helping to tell that story and hopefully like bringing more attention to this.

1:32:27So it's a wonderful book. Well said. And I what I love about cookbooks is that it points us towards restaurants we may not know of. I was unfamiliar with the restaurant and I lived here. So was I. And I don't live anywhere near it, but now I'm going to bike up there. I want to go up there. I want to buy this book and and really try some of this cooking because, you know, Ethiopian Jews, you know, not covered as much in cookbook world. And this is a brand new title. So I'm really excited about that. Well, we've covered a lot of titles and apologies to those not mentioned, but please just click the link.

1:33:02It is a great roundup, such smart writing from your team at Eater. And I just love that you pay such close attention to the cookbook industry. Really appreciate that. Yeah, thanks, Matt. Yeah, you're welcome. And I asked this question when we talk about, when we have booksellers in for previews and journalists, like yourself, and I know we have some folks in the building listening here at Penguin Random House and I'm sure others in the industry. You know, I want to know, like, what's missing? Because I know you're seeing all these beautiful titles, these incredible stories, but there's still something that you cover the industry so closely.

1:33:35There's something that you really seek for yourself. I mean, it's kind of, it's a complicated question, right? You know, I think, on a more superficial level, let's just say, you know, sort of alluding back to Haley Catalana's book, I really want to see more illustration. And I don't just mean like on covers. I think to sort of draw that out a bit, I really... Good pun there. What's that? You draw it out. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Jesus. That was totally unintentional. But yes, to draw it out. I'm somebody who pays a lot of attention to design, particularly in cookbooks. And, you know, There is a lot of gorgeous photography in cookbooks, and I am grateful to that.

1:34:18But I love it when I see things that I'm just not expecting to see in cookbooks, like illustration, for example. I really like that. I want to see more, and I feel like I've been seeing more of this, but one cookbook that I think about a lot from last year was Margaret Eby's You Gotta Eat. And what the genius thing about this book was, was it sort of took this approach of like, let's be real. Not everyone always feels like cooking, even people who love to cook. A lot of the time don't really feel like cooking, especially if you're tired or you're sick or God knows what else is going on in your life.

1:34:54I really appreciated that book because it was just very honest about the fact that, like, look, on the one hand, we are truly blessed to be able to put food on our tables, right? Nobody should take that for granted. On the other hand, cooking every night can be tiring. And this book really acknowledged that and went with it. And it was—it worked. It worked really well. I kind of want to see more of that, you know? And I think we are in certain respects. Like Ruby Tando's book did that same thing and did it really well. Georgia Friedman's Snacking Dinners, which is a book that's coming out this season, also sort of does that where it's like sometimes you just want a snack for dinner.

1:35:35I certainly eat that way a lot of time. So I want to see more of that for sure. Love that. Are there any cuisines or any techniques or anything that you are like, wow, I wish there was a book about? This is such a hard question. I've asked Matt Sartwell this at Kitchen Arts, and even for a bookseller, it can be challenging. It is challenging because, like, you know, the thing that always comes to my mind is, like, I love books about baking, you know. And, like, there's so many great books about baking, you know, for all different kinds of baking, really. But I think, like, I always, I think I'm always looking for, like, that mythical baking book that will have everything I ever want from a baking book.

1:36:19I don't think it really will ever exist because it's a very personal thing. You know, I think something that gets a bad rap, but that I would actually really like to see more of is like the single subject cookbook. Like, I love a single subject cookbook. And, you know, like kind of the more esoteric, the better. I want to see something about like cooking with oats. You know, I want to see something about like cooking with one variety of like canned beans. Like, you know, I don't know. But I think it's I think there's something I want to see people's quirks being more embraced. I want to see cookbook publishers not be so afraid of taking chances on people who have really unusual worldviews.

1:37:02You know, I think that's something. And look, this is not a knock on anybody's cookbook at all. But I do think there can be a timidity in, like, really embracing people who have truly unusual voices who, you know, aren't sanded down into more acceptable shapes and forms. I kind of want to see slightly more punk rock, more anarchy. Yeah. I would really dig that. Absolutely agree fully. and, you know, it's the tricky, you know, conversation about will it sell? Well, and I think this is the thing, as you and I well know, it's like we can get very hemmed in by the question of like making money from our content, right?

1:37:48And so I think I understand why publishers want to make money, believe me. But I think there has to be room for books to not make money. I mean, look, most cookbooks don't make money. We know this. So if most cookbooks don't make money anyway, then why not just go wild? Yeah. You know, go out on that limb a little further. Yeah, it's definitely a topic to be continued, I feel. I love having you back. I hope you come back. Thank you. I'm happy to come back. Yeah. So have you started fall yet? Have you started looking? No. Thank God. I mean, you know, a little bit. We're in August right now, technically speaking.

1:38:26So we're starting to get wind of things that are coming out. I know Hedy McKinnon, for example, has a new cookbook in the fall, and I'm very excited. Yeah, she's such a terrific author. We'll have you back to talk more about the season. Rebecca Flint-Marx, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you, Matt. It's been a pleasure.

1:38:47This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste. you