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Podcast Summary: This Is TASTE - Episode 556: Bonnie’s Calvin Eng Has MSG Tattooed on His Arm (And All Over His Book)
Episode Overview In this episode of *This Is TASTE*, hosts Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard welcome Calvin Eng, chef and owner of Bonnie's, a popular Cantonese American restaurant in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Eng discusses his new cookbook *Salt Sugar MSG*, which he co-wrote with his partner Phoebe Melnick, emphasizing his unique style of home cooking.
Key Topics Covered
- Calvin Eng’s Background: Growing up in New York’s Chinatowns and his culinary journey.
- The Cookbook: Introduction to *Salt Sugar MSG* and its themes.
- Cultural Shifts Regarding MSG: The evolving perception of MSG in American cooking and food culture.
- Development of Recipes: The challenges of designing recipes for home cooks versus restaurant line cooks.
- Culinary Recommendations: Favorite spots in Manhattan's Chinatown and broader NYC.
Key Takeaways
Calvin Eng's Culinary Identity
- Calvin Eng shares his childhood experiences in various Chinatowns, expressing how they influenced his cooking style and restaurant concept.
- He advocates for MSG, revealing that he even has it tattooed on his arm, signifying his commitment to educating others about the ingredient's safety and culinary potential.
Understanding MSG
- There has been a noticeable shift in the acceptance of MSG, thanks to efforts by chefs and health professionals to promote its use as a safe flavor enhancer.
- Eng highlights the health benefits of MSG, particularly for individuals with high blood pressure, as it allows for reduced salt usage without sacrificing flavor.
The Cookbook *Salt Sugar MSG*
- The cookbook aims to present approachable recipes for home cooks, marking a departure from the expectations of restaurant cooking.
- Eng discusses the complexity of writing recipes that are simple enough for home cooks, pointing out the necessity for clear instructions and less technical jargon.
Culinary Recommendations
- Eng shares his go-to spots for dining in Manhattan's Chinatown, such as Yuji Shimo for rice noodles and King's Kitchen for roast meats, showcasing the rich food landscape of the area.
- He reflects on the changes in Chinatown over the years, mourning the loss of beloved spots while also celebrating new establishments.
Cooking at Home vs. Restaurant
- Eng discusses the difficulties of transitioning from writing restaurant recipes to home-friendly versions, emphasizing the need for practicality in home cooking.
- He shares insights from testing recipes in a small apartment kitchen, making them accessible to others living in similar conditions.
Collaboration with Phoebe Melnick
- Eng credits his partner Phoebe Melnick for her organizational skills and support in writing the cookbook, illustrating the collaborative nature of their creative process.
- The chaotic environment of raising a newborn while developing the book adds a relatable layer to their culinary journey.
Additional Highlights
- Fruit Plates: Eng emphasizes the importance of a well-curated fruit plate, highlighting seasonal ingredients and thoughtful presentation.
- Desserts: Eng's evolving relationship with desserts is explored, revealing how family life has influenced his cooking.
- Future Aspirations: While Eng finds the process of writing cookbooks challenging, he expresses a willingness to explore it further in the future.
Closing Thoughts The episode concludes with a lively conversation about the dynamics of food media, the rise of platforms like Substack, and the significance of personal storytelling in cooking. Eng's passion for Cantonese-American cuisine and commitment to sharing it through his cookbook resonate throughout the discussion.
Listener Engagement
- The hosts encourage listeners to subscribe, review the podcast, and explore the various resources mentioned during the episode.
For more insights and discussions around food, home cooking, and culinary culture, tune in to *This Is TASTE*.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. People are much more open to using MSG these days over the last couple of years. And a lot of that has to do with whether it's like chefs, restaurateurs, creators, nutritionists and doctors that have made such a massive impact on the industry and like the regular consumer to educate them that it's a safe and delicious product to use. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbinell. Calvin Eng is the chef and owner of Bonnie's, a very popular Cantonese-American restaurant in Williamsburg. He's also the author of a great new cookbook, Salt Sugar MSG, an introduction to his unique style of home cooking, co-written with his partner Phoebe Melnick.
1:14It's so fun to have Calvin in the studio to talk about growing up in New York's many Chinatowns, developing recipes for home cooks instead of line cooks, and more.
1:32Calvin Eng, this is Taste. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I made you come into Midtown on the coldest day we've had so far, so I feel a little bad about that. All good. I definitely only come out here probably once a year. Yeah, it's an occasion. Are you going to try to eat anywhere while you're up in Midtown, or are you just going to go down to the restaurant? No, I'll probably head back to Chinatown first. Quick little pit stop. Oh, what are you going to get? Grab a couple things. I mean, I always try to hit Yuji Shimo whenever I'm in like Chinatown, like the rice noodle shop.
2:03That's like my go-to spot for like a quick little snack before I hop back on the train. I feel like a steamed like rice roll or like a plump rice noodle in this kind of weather is the most like comforting thing you could have. Yeah, literally. So the reason to have you in the studio today is talk about your new cookbook, Salt Sugar MSG, which is such a fun cookbook. I think as the title maybe suggests. And the first thing I saw when I opened it is this picture of a heart tattoo that says MSG in the middle. Is that your tattoo? Yes, that is my tattoo on my left, behind my left elbow. And it's actually a drawing that Phoebe, my fiance, slash like co-author and partner of this cookbook, she randomly drew for me one day like five years ago at this point.
2:47And I was like, that's sick. Like, I want to get that tatted. and that same night we literally went to somewhere in Greenpoint that was open and had like availability and I got this done really quickly from this girl and when I was getting it done she literally asked me if this was from Madison Square Garden literally in that moment I was like oh god am I making this massive mistake right now I feel like only in New York it could have multiple meetings probably everywhere else it's clear why why the msg tattoo because i love it it was probably at that time i already knew i wanted to to just educate people on on the ingredient because it had such a negative connotation and people weren't messing with it and i think more people should because it's already scientifically proven that it's a safe ingredient and a delicious ingredient so it was important for me to kind of show that and be a number one fan for life now.
3:45Yeah, have you done like the Ajinomoto sponsorship yet? I feel like they should be giving you free MSG for life now. Yeah, we've done a couple Ajinomoto events and sponsorship deals that have been very, very good to us the last couple of years. Were you working in food at the time that you got that tattoo? I was. I was working at, I was a CDC at Winsun at the time. and that's when we would order like 100 pound barrels every couple weeks actually a funny story like most new york city restaurants we have basements and all deliveries come through like this hatch on the sidewalk down to the basement and we had like a little ramp that basically the purveyors will like slide everything down and then some would be down there catching it and one of the sous chefs was at the bottom of it trying to catch this 100 pound barrel of msg with the speed of the ramp, it literally crushed her foot.
4:36And she was out of commission for quite some time. But it's just wild to think about. A hundred pound barrel MSG is what crushed her foot. Yeah, that comes at you fast, I would imagine. But it's very on brand for us and on brand that that happened. Out of all things, that could have fallen. Yeah, that's so funny. And I feel like you're referring to this a little bit, but even probably over the past five years that you got that tattoo, I think that MSG and the way that it's been viewed has changed, at least in like mainstream food media, like food culture here in America. On the menu at Bonnie's, you have the MSG martini.
5:09Have you encountered that people's view about MSG has changed even since getting that tattoo? Yeah, 100 percent. I think people are much more open to using MSG these days over the last couple of years. And a lot of that has to do with whether it's like chefs, restaurateurs, creators, nutritionists and doctors, and even like no MSG campaigns that you've probably seen throughout the last couple of years that have made such a massive impact on the industry and like the regular consumer to educate them that it's a safe and delicious product to use. a lot of people who have high blood pressure probably should be using it because it does contain less salt and allows them to use less salt in their cooking but makes their food taste better i didn't even know that that's so interesting so obviously based on the title of the book if i'm gonna cook your recipes i need salt sugar and msg i'm curious if there are a couple other ingredients you would shout out as being like particularly pivotal in your home cooking or in the recipes in this book?
6:11Yeah, definitely. I think a lot of condiments, a lot of sauces could be like very intimidating to purchase. I think like Chinese supermarkets specifically, like the aisles have so many different brands, so many different products, like even for soy sauce, for example, there's a million different brands. And I think a lot of Chinese families and Chinese moms are very loyal to those, to very specific brands that they use in their cooking and they like pass that loyalty down to their kids so like i'm very loyal to a lot of brands that i use at home today um i know other families use other different brands but even like my pantry at home i always have the kumki premium oyster sauce i'll always have like pearl river bridge light and dark soy sauces or different like fermented bean curds and things like that like there's a lot of condiments i'll always have on deck and then there's like another part of the book that kind of talks about the part of the pantry that like you make and those ingredients are kind of like your ginger scallion and like my version of that which is like with a little green chili and pickled mustard green so it's like a little bit acid a little bit of heat there's like Chinese hot mustard um exo sauce things like that that you don't really buy or you can't really buy that you would always have in the fridge as like staples yeah I totally get what you're saying about the specific brand loyalty.
7:30And I imagine that kind of factors into these ideas of like how something tastes like what mom used to make. Like partially that comes down to what ingredients mom was buying and using as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think when a lot of times when recipes just call for soy sauce, it's like, which one, what kind, dark light. It's like every culture has their own soy sauce. There's like Japanese, there's Chinese, there's Taiwanese, they're all extremely different if you were to like blind taste test them all. Yeah, I love that. like the infinite kaleidoscope of soy sauce that's out there. And talking about your mom, one of the things I really enjoyed about this book and making my way through and reading it is you talk about your family history here in New York, your mom growing up on Bayard Street in Chinatown, you growing up in South Brooklyn, but returning to Manhattan, Chinatown to kind of see your grandparents and just kind of having this childhood in the city.
8:18And I'm curious, like, you know, you mentioned one place you're going to go to maybe for lunch in Chinatown after this, But if there are any other spots in Manhattan, Chinatown that you would recommend people go to, whether they live here or they're just kind of visiting the city. Yeah, definitely. I feel like Manhattan, Chinatown specifically has changed so much over the last couple of years. Like I grew up, like my grandparents lived there for like 50, almost 60 years, like 50, 60 years. And that's where my mom immigrated to when she first came over from Hong Kong into America. That's where she lived until she got married.
8:48And then she moved to Bay Ridge with my dad, where I grew up as well. but there's spots that I would hit up now or probably like I mentioned earlier, Yishimo for like rice noodles. That's like a newer spot that's really good. King's Kitchen on like East Broadway for like Cantonese roast meats. Those are like my spots. And then like Kong Ki for just like fresh rice noodles, places like that. And the Grand Street Skewer Cart that's there at nighttime. It's another like banger that I'll always hit if I'm in the neighborhood at night. There's a lot of spots I grew up to that just don't even exist anymore, unfortunately.
9:23Like Hop Singh was like a really cool spot, which is Bridges now. 69 Bayard was another really good late night spot that doesn't exist. And there's a lot of other spots that still exist, but it's just new ownership, new chefs. Everything's totally different. So it's just not the same anymore, unfortunately, for a lot of spots. Do you go to any of the grocery stores down there? Yeah, I do a lot of shopping down there because growing up when we went to Chinatown every weekend as a kid, my mom would always... It would be a reason to see her parents, my grandparents, and also a reason for her to grocery shop for the week.
9:56So she would bop around to all the supermarkets, all the stores, all like Ma and Elizabeth. She showed me where to get like each store had like different things. You never go to like one supermarket. It was never like a one-stop shop. Like one spot, you get your noodles. One spot, you get your produce. One spot, you get your dried seafood. One spot would be like your fresh seafood kind of thing. So I do hit up Chinatown pretty often these days, whether it's like for myself or for the restaurant. Yeah. Do you go to the other Chinatowns in the city, like in Sunset Park or Flushing also? Yeah. So since I grew up in Bay Ridge, Sunset Park is like the closest Chinatown to us.
10:29But we only hit that once in a while if we needed something like last minute, but not really that often because our grandparents, my grandparents were in Chinatown. So it was like a reason to go there specifically. But these days there's another smaller little Chinatown as well in Brooklyn, more like Bensonhurst. like Chinese people love eight it means like prosperous prosperity that's what it sounds like like the old translation of it so you always find like Sunset Park is heavy Mexican community and also heavy like Chinese community depending on what avenue you're on so like the Chinese community Chinese Chinatown would be on like 8th Avenue and then like the other one in Bensonhurst would be like on 18th Avenue so these days we kind of hit up both once in a while I'll like take my mom to one of those just because it's easier and faster to like get her groceries and stuff like that but I never really hit up Flushing Chinatown as a kid because I think Flushing Chinatowns mainly at the time was more Korean and more like northern Chinese and my family is like southern Chinese so we spoke Cantonese and Toi Sanese which is like a very specific dialect of Cantonese and Flushing was more Mandarin and so we weren't able to like communicate so it wasn't something we ever hit up growing up.
11:46But these days I do, I do go once in a while and it's just so different. It's like, it's massive. There's so much to explore and eat. Yeah, it's totally huge. And I think also that Chinatown and Flushing kind of developed later on than these other Chinatowns that we're talking about. You see that even in the pattern of immigration of who was coming there. And so it makes sense that, you know, maybe in the era that your family was kind of shopping around together and you were going up here, like you're going to stay closer to home, then kind of travel out to this new Chinatown that's developing.
12:15Yeah, exactly. Like the first wave of immigrants that came were from Southern China. We're from like Toisan specifically where both sides of my family are from. So yes, that's why exactly it makes sense that we're only hitting those areas up. I feel like it's so lucky to live in a city like New York where we can talk about like four different Chinatowns that you can go to and that they each have their own kind of thing going on. It's really special. Yeah, and they're all kind of close to each other. They're not like that far. Yeah. Like miles-wise, time-wise, yeah, far and long. And even like energy-wise, like they feel very far apart.
12:46But especially if you had a car, you could probably go to all of them. Definitely. So I want to get some more insight into kind of your perspective on food. We talked before that you were the CDC at Winsun and now you're the chef owner at Bonnie's, which is a really popular and fun, like Cantonese-American kind of restaurant in Brooklyn. And I'm curious, like maybe even since opening Bonnie's, what have you learned about what kind of food people are looking to eat when they're going out here in New York? Is there anything on the menu that you're especially proud of or you think really kind of emblemizes what you're trying to do with food?
13:16Yeah, I think what people really want to eat and what they do eat based on like sales and data, I guess, for us, as we look at that every single week, is what they see pictures of and what's like on the Internet. so like month after month week after week our number one seller has always been our chasu big rib that wasn't like like going into it that wasn't our intention or goal to make like this viral or photogenic dish our goal is to make something tasty and make sense for the menu but that's like what people will always go for i feel like is what they see which makes sense it's like sometimes i'll look at a restaurant's instagram or a restaurant's like website see a couple photos like I'm a visual person as well I'll say that looks good I'll get it that's what everyone else is getting it's probably going to be good kind of thing so it's hard to know like what people really want other than like what they know will be good or what they've been what they've heard and what that has been written about I guess yeah I think especially at restaurants that are you know maybe like not the easiest reservation to get or not a place that you're going to all the time when you go you feel like you have to like you can't waste that opportunity and you can't miss the thing that everyone is saying to get, but it does kind of create this perpetuating cycle where then that's the thing that everyone is ordering.
14:37Yeah, which is funny because like, I'm not going to name the restaurant that I've been to, but I went to a spot and I've been many times and I was like, you know, I'm going to get everything that I've never gotten before and get everything that no one talks about. And it just wasn't good. Now I get why. Now you get it. And we actually talked about this chasu rib back in the day for a taste article because it used to be named after a McDonald's item that I think maybe you're not allowed to do that anymore? Yeah, so obviously it was named after the famous sandwich at McDonald's. The famous rib sandwich that we're not going to name, yeah.
15:15I was inspired by that. But they sent a cease and desist letter a couple years in. And I looked up the guy who sent me that email and apparently that's his job. He's done this for 20 years. He works at McDonald's on the law team and that's what he goes after people who use similar names. So we changed, we reached out to a lawyer and we also had to basically like, you have to change the name. So we changed it. We held like a competition on Instagram to kind of see what names we would just change it to. And then the winner was going to get free ribs for a year. So that was all of 2024. And we ended up changing it to Bic Rib.
15:54So the B could be for Bonnie's, the B could be for Brooklyn, and the B could be for whatever. Has the winner cashed in a lot of ribs? Do you know? He came a bunch, but he's actually gluten-free. So he couldn't even eat the bun. So every time he came with like a date or someone or a friend, they would be eating it. I can't imagine rolling up with a date and then having to explain the reason why you're getting so many of this ribs that you won the Instagram. Actually, maybe it would go in your favor on a date. I think I would be pretty impressed with somebody if that was the reason why they were getting all of the rooms.
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18:33That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. So I imagine that approaching writing a cookbook versus developing menu items in the restaurant maybe isn't like the same skill set just because like you wouldn't necessarily ask a home cook to do the same thing that you do in the restaurant. How do you feel like your home cooking style and the recipes in this book? Like, are they the same or do you feel like it's kind of a different version of your Cantonese American cooking?
19:11No, I think in this book is definitely for home cooks. like when we were writing the proposal that's kind of when we decided that we want this to be a home cookbook because I think at the time like our lives were evolving so much like we sent this book proposal out at the hospital when we when my partner gave birth to our son Levi because it was due that day so like our lives were just changing so drastically so quickly that my style of cooking was also changing with it because my lifestyle from restaurant life kind of became like home dad life and family life so I was trying to cook my hours were different the things I was cooking was different so it just naturally evolved into like this home cookbook and kind of like the recipes that we cook now as a family for everybody but it was very very difficult for me to write recipes for a home cook and not like for the restaurant like it was not easy for me at all because when I like read a recipe I don't even read like the process I'll like look at the ingredients i'll look at the title and then i'll probably just go and make it but that's when i was writing the recipes i was had like five steps like five words in the process and the phoebe was like helping me break it down further and further like a recipe for me would be like a quarter of a page and we stretched it out to like two pages because it needed to be for home cook so it was definitely not an easy process for me at all to like make that transition and flip until i just flip my brain because my brain just doesn't work like that.
20:39Yeah. Yeah. And that's because, you know, the technique of how to make something if you see the ingredients, so you know how to put it together. But someone reading a cookbook who doesn't have that kind of kitchen experience needs a little bit more like explanation and handholding. Yeah, exactly. And also some of the things that I originally wanted to do were just too technical or not even technical, just too messy and too fussy to do at home. And no one's going to do that. So I had to think back, Like, would I do it? Would I make it with a kid running around? Will I spend an hour making dinner?
21:08Like, absolutely not. And I can't expect someone else to. So we had to, like, ditch those or, like, flip those or change those recipes. Like, for example, one of the recipes is, like, this crispy sheet pan noodle dish. And at the restaurant or, like, any restaurant, it's, like, pan-fried or deep-fried. But at home, it's, like, it actually works really well just baked in the oven on a sheet tray. Literally tastes the same. You would have no idea. and that kind of came from like Hedy McKinnon's book. She had like a crispy ramen, sheet pan type of thing. And I was like, that's genius and it works.
21:40I love that. And I love just going back to being in the hospital, like while your partner is like gonna have a baby and then having another due date at the same time as your book, there's a lot of symbolism there. And even having like the reality check of having a kid while you're developing the recipes. So you're thinking about like time and how you're using it in a different way. I think it makes a lot of sense. And we also tested it. We tested all the recipes in this book in our old apartment, which was like under 600 square feet and electric induction frigid air range. And it was above we lived the we live above the restaurant.
22:15And I guess I could have cheated and go downstairs, but I wanted to keep it true. It's like a home cookbook. And like it works in this tiny little apartment with this dinky stove and it's going to work for most. Yeah, I love that. I think it makes me feel safe as a home cook who has like a New York City kitchen without a dishwasher or like a convection oven or anything to know that the recipes were designed in a similar environment. Yeah, no convection. I want to talk more about what it was like working on the book with Phoebe because it seems like it was kind of a partnership. How did you guys work together and like how is this book kind of a product of your combined efforts?
22:49yeah so Phoebe is like so so so organized and smart and like well-spoken like she we were not writers like she's not a writer I'm not a writer but she works in food media as a video producer and like is really good at like storytelling and I think that's like the key part of it like she helped me build out the restaurant and we build that story and like dig all these things out of me because that's not those aren't my strong suits but she was able to like do that for me so I knew she'd be like the perfect partner to write this book with me especially at this point in our lives like I said we're the book is evolving and like the style of cooking is evolving into what this is she was just the perfect person to do it with but I don't know how other people write cookbooks or how it works when you're not living together.
23:39But for us, it was just like chaos in my mind. Like we were, she would have had a full-time job. I was running a restaurant. We have this newborn. We had to meet all these deadlines. And I would just remember one night I was just like holding Levi rocking to sleep. And she was in the other room working on the book and I had like AirPods in and she would just like talk and ask me all these questions from the room next door. And I would be like texting her answers back. just so I wouldn't wake him up. It was just nuts. We'd work on this thing at every free moment, free second we had just to meet all the deadlines to get this done in time.
24:14That's so wild. Did you just have like, I don't know, I'm picturing whiteboards or like pieces of paper on the wall with string in between them, like about all of the things you guys were working on. Like how did, was all the food you were eating at home, the recipes you were developing for the book? Yeah, pretty much. Everything we were eating were things that we were working on at the time for probably at least like a six, seven month stretch. I remember I would like newborns nap all the time. So I would have to test this up throughout the day. I remember just like bringing the Vitamix to the bathroom and closing the door and like whisking on the floor with a towel just to not wake anyone up in this tiny apartment.
24:53I feel like he's going to grow up to be the kind of person that can sleep anywhere, you know, because there's like that white noise in the background. That's a great gift you could give your kid actually. He's going to be sleeping on planes for the rest of his life. Fingers crossed. Are there any dishes in the book that you think really encapsulate the way that your cooking has evolved or the way that you're cooking now?
25:15I mean, I think so. I think definitely like that sheet pan noodle dish I was talking about, like the kanji arancini. I think it's like a really good mishmash and like a very simple one to execute at home. Or even like the clams casino kind of dish. It's like a fun like weeknight, easy thing, pop in the oven. I think, yeah, I think everything in the book is much, much more quicker of a process than what I would have done like three years ago. Yeah, I really liked the dessert section also. And you kind of write about how you used to not really be a dessert person. But now that you have a family and a home with somebody who is that you have kind of expanded your cooking to include desserts as well.
25:57Yeah, Phoebe's a big, big ice cream person. And I remember during COVID, when we were together, we would eat like an ice cream sundae every day. And then I got hooked. Because you thought that's what it meant to be a good boyfriend is to eat an ice cream sundae every day with someone. Whatever she wanted. Yeah. How do you feel about dessert today? I do like a little sweet treat once in a while. And the fruit plate, I feel like that's like a cornerstone of the menu at Bonnie's. And you have a whole section about how to write a good fruit plate. I'm curious if there are any tips you would especially call out to someone who wants to be upping their fruit plate game.
26:30Yeah, a plate of fruit, a fresh plate of cut fruit after a meal is like a perfect. I think when someone makes you like a beautiful dish, it's like their way of showing their love for you because it takes time to like curate and source like a bunch of different fruit. It's not like just a plate of apples. It's like a bunch of different things that to peel and cut and present and clean and only get like serve the perfect ripe ones and things like that. like creating the perfect one is really just like having a good variety of fruits because you want sweet you want acidic fruits you want different textures um they have to a lot of them should be in season just be ripe like heavy fruit is juicy fruit things like that i think putting together this like perfect little plate is is just a perfect little treat after a meal like a heavy meal i like that how do you feel about like putting salt and chili on fruit or lime or any kind of dressing it up.
27:27Are you in favor? Phoebe doesn't, but I'm about it. I douse my mangoes in taillin and my peaches, like really soft, almost rotten, mushy peaches doused in that and then it's just spooned. I'll eat that all day. That sounds really good. I'm from LA, so I love eating taillin on my fruit or also like dried sumac, I think is really good on citrus because it kind of brings out that citrusy flavor that it already has. Yeah, I'm about it. A little MSG. Oh yeah. I really like have not been using my MSG to the full effect. I have some in my pantry. I'll use it in some dishes, but I feel like putting the MSG on fruit would be my next evolution of fruit eating.
28:06Yeah, you should hit it. A little salt sugar MSG. I mean, I just love savory. I mean, I prefer savory over sweets any day. So just whenever I am eating sweets, I always try to find a little savory component in there as well. I wanted to ask you about the cookbook shoot also because I love the photos that Alex Lau shot and just even seeing some of the BTS in the book itself. It just seemed like it was a lot of work, but also really fun. And I'm curious how that experience was for you. The photo shoot was definitely my favorite part of the whole experience. It was just such a fun experience to see it all come together and with such a talented team.
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28:42Because Alex Lau was my number one choice for photographer. I know he's very picky about the books he works on because that's not his favorite thing to do is shooting cookbooks and he'll say that to anyone. So I was very grateful that he was down to shoot mine. I've gotten to know him over the last couple of years because I just respected his work. He became a good friend. So I hit him up first and then I hit him up to see if he knew anyone who he would want to work with to be the food and prop stylist because I wanted the vibe and the energy to be good and everyone to work well together. And I trusted him.
29:16So I trusted he would bring in cool people that we would also enjoy working with. So we brought on Tina as a food stylist and Nicole as a prop stylist. And they were just like a dream team together. I remember just like the first couple of days, Tina, like they're all used to working with like big talent. And I was like little peanuts to them probably. I was like a nobody to them. But Tina, like she treats the talent like talent. And she wanted me to have that experience. So I was like hovering over her. like the first couple days just making sure everything was good but this is how she works like she wants the talent to just sit back and relax and just like oversee and not have to do anything and I'm not used to that I'm like very hands-on and want to do everything so when she brought a whole crew to like make everything I was like what the hell am I doing yeah it was just funny I mean after we were done shooting we did everything in like six and a half days which apparently is like unheard of and then we didn't know that we've never done a book before but we were just trying to fit it in with everyone's schedule, like organizing it logistically to make it work with like eight different people's schedules was like impossible.
30:26So we had no choice but to force it all into like six and a half days. But we got it done in time. It was like six studio days, half day at my mom's house. We had Alex's dogs were on set like most of the days. We had two toddlers running around. Like it was, it felt like chaos, but we got it done. It was a blast. Yeah, I feel like the sense of fun really comes across in all of those photos. And Tina is such a pro. I have had the opportunity to work with her a couple of times. And she just makes everyone feel so calm. I feel like that's a good energy to have on set. Yeah, she's so sweet, so nice.
31:01She would be making family, making breakfast for everyone on top of banging all these recipes out. Because you didn't have enough food to eat on set already. I think we were all tired of Chinese food for a little bit. Yeah. And a couple of Popeyes days. Oh, I love that. That sounds so good. I'm curious if your son Levi was was eating any of the food in this book or any of the food on set by the time he was He had his teeth and everything. Yeah I mean he was testing a lot of this stuff at home and on set like the buttery oyster sauce noodles was like one of his favorites that he's Shot eating in the book Because growing up I would always my mom and my grandma would always just like boil pasta Throw in oyster sauce hoisin sauce a little sesame oil and that was like a meal for me and then all my other friends were eating just like buttered noodles like plain buttered noodles like what's there to eat like it's gross there's not there's no flavor and then I've grown to appreciate just buttered noodles as well so I think combining that was kind of like it made like a perfect delicious dish and now he chows that and also he really liked the beefy black bean tofu dish with rice because I think in the beginning when he didn't have teeth that was like the perfect thing to eat.
32:10Yeah, soft and squishy. Yeah. I really love that kind of like oyster sauce, hoisin sauce, buttered noodle dish. I feel like that would be a really good, like it's good for kids and also good for adults, like maybe after a night out, especially it's a good like pantry pasta to make. It's like so easy and you throw a couple of things in that you have in the fridge. It's like perfect. Jazz it up if you want to throw some herbs. So I know you just finished this book and you have the restaurant and so many other things to do, but I'm curious if you feel like you enjoy writing cookbooks, if it's something you would want to do more of in the future?
32:40I think with the right timing, it could be. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes.
33:17Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety.
33:52There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure-cooked with water and apple cider vinegar. It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste.
34:40Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. I think for us, it was just very, very difficult. It was not easy. Did I enjoy the process sometimes? And sometimes it was just like, why am I doing this? It was just so hard juggling everything with work and home, but for both of us. So I think maybe in the far, far, far future. I think for now, enjoy this book that you've completed and is coming out into the world and reap all of the benefits of that and don't have to think about it.
35:22Exactly. So to close today, I want to play a rapid fire taste check game with you. So I'll give you some questions and you just give me like the first answer that comes into your head. Sounds good. Okay. Your go-to late night bodega snack. Late night, I'm probably just hitting the halal cart. I don't really hit the bodega late night. What are you getting at the halal cart? Mix over rice, a lot of white, a little hot. Perfect order. Your favorite dim sum spot in the city? Park Asia in Sunset Park. It's where we celebrate my son's 100-day party as well. Your bagel order. Everything bagel with cream cheese and bacon.
36:00Not toasted, but just has to be like fresh. Okay, what you would consider to be the best sandwich of all time? Just bacon, egg, and cheese on a roll. It's classic. Like I don't even do salt, pepper, ketchup. I think there's enough salt from the cheese and the bacon. It's a real New York answer. Your favorite thing on the menu at Bonnie's right now? Definitely the haptoha, the shrimp and walnuts. I think that's like, it's always my favorite dish when I go out to eat with my family. And we go to like banquet dinners. It's been my favorite dish growing up. It's still my favorite dish. And it's like the one dish on the menu we didn't like try to do our way.
36:34We didn't like bonify it. It's just the classic dish, but done the best way possible. So good. The best fruit to put on a seasonal fruit plate like right now, wintertime? Citrus. A lot of good citrus. It's like so many different orange varieties. You have pomelos. You have so many different kumquat varieties. and yeah and oranges just symbolize like gold so chinese people love love oranges and citrus your favorite grocery store in new york i do hit up h mart a lot the one in long island city specifically oh i haven't been to that one oh my god it's like pretty new and it's huge and they have like it's a korean supermarket but they have a lot of chinese products and they have a lot of western products so it's like a one-stop shop for me and as a parking lot.
37:25Whoa. Okay. Next level. Yeah. They got it all. And finally, a fictional scene like from a book or a movie that you wish you could eat in real life. I'm reading a lot of only like kids books lately. So Jamboree is a good one. It's just about all these made up berries and jams. And I don't know, it just reminds me of like summertime. It's chowing on berries, unlimited berries. I feel like kids books have low key the best food scenes. There are so many, like Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, Red and Jam for Francis. It's such a good answer, always. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Calvin.
38:01It was so much fun talking with you. Of course. Thanks for having me.
38:13Austin Tedesco, welcome to This Is Taste. It's great to talk with you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm a huge fan of the show. Well, I appreciate it. We're big fans of Substack here at Taste. And I just have to say what you've been doing and building is so cool and really important. We'll talk about an article I wrote in 2020 where I was really bullish on Substack then as much as I am now. I also want to have you in the studio for a full episode. You've got a really cool career. You've worked in restaurants. You've worked in digital media as well. And really, you read a terrific sub stack yourself.
38:49We'll get to that. You've got to hit the subscribe button. Bangers and Jams. Listener, I'm going to link into it. It's a really, really great read. We link to it in our Friday newsletter from time to time. You have a really cool point of view. I think you really have a singular take on a restaurant. I think it's either in or it's out in your book. And I think your Soul Recap was terrific too. Make sure to check that out. It's a great look at Soul. I mean, how do you think about new restaurants? Because I think you're pretty omnivorous with your restaurant. Appetite is from reading you and checking out your socials.
39:23Like what really, what gets you excited about, you know, checking out a place? Like what's the Austin, like what's the shit test for you? Yeah, so I had this dinner party as part of my sub stack in November. I stupidly did it the weekend before Thanksgiving. So I just spent 10 days cooking nonstop. And I think our mutual friend Bill Addison, the food critic for LA Times told me that I write like LA is my wife and New York is my mistress that I just desperately need to bang when I'm trapped. And I do think there's some truth to that, that I get very easily wrapped up in the romance of a hot new restaurant when it hits.
40:14I wrote about this, going to Bridges during the opening month, seeing all of my friends there randomly, trying the Comte Tarte for the first time and being blown away, flirting with the waiter and getting too drunk. Like that's what I love. That's what I remember. And it's a kind of special thing that only happens at a new spot you go to the first time. And I think, as you know, really well is so rare. It's such a tough thing to pull off. I've worked at a restaurant that just opened as a line cook. And like, we frankly didn't have that. I was desperate for us to have it and we did it. and uh i went to i went to dunsmore in la last night which is not new but it's new to me i tried it once and really didn't like it i'm from the south and to me they do like um i call it like southern cosplay in a way for people who are who are like in uh not not in the south and trying to do that thing and to me not not super well and so i tried it again last night and it just didn't hit and there's that like deflating sense of trying a place for the first or second time and um it not it not executing or what it's trying to be specifically that that is what i think most places do because it's really really hard running a restaurant is impossible working in a restaurant is impossible and so when something magical happens like i think is happening at bridges and Penny in particular.
41:50I find it overwhelming in a way I just love. Well, I love the Bill Addison, you know, turn of phrase describing your restaurant habits. Gotta love Bill there. He's a much better writer than me and I love to just steal his words. Well, you both have your skills. And I did follow the ups and downs of Cool World as well even before I started reading you. And I know you worked there. And you know what? we're going to table that for your, your visit here at IRL. Cause I do want to tap into what it was like to work for a failed restaurant. Cause I think that you have like really good insight into that.
42:26But I do want to talk about Substack because again, really, really, really important for food media. And I think just for our listeners who know the name, but don't really know the platform, describe what you're doing at Substack specifically for food writers, food creators, recipe writers, you know, you see all types of writing on Substack. What are you guys providing for them? Yeah, so I oversee creator partnerships at Substack. The primary thing I'm focused on in food is showing people that they can use the Substack app to find a better alternative to this broken economy and food creation that's out there.
43:14Violet Wichel is my favorite example of this. She's Violet Cooks on TikTok and Instagram. She's huge there, millions of followers. And she has said publicly that her income from Substack is already three times greater than her earnings from brand deals across all of her other social platforms. Those brand deals are great. They're great for Violet. No part of me or the work my team does is trying to say, you know, get rid of that. But a thing Violet has said is that it's hard to plan a sustainable life with your family when these brand deals come inconsistently. And Substack and her Substack provides this reliable, recurring revenue through paid subscriptions on a thing that she owns herself and where she can do whatever she wants.
44:08The thing that I love about working at Substack and working with talent on Substack is that you really only make money if you do stuff that's authentic and good. There's not a lot of algorithm hacking that happens on the platform. It's mostly just people doing really good work and then being smart about finding an audience and promoting it. Violet's a great example of that. I promote this to all of my friends who are chefs and cooks too. Most of the cooks and chefs I know, not all of them can be creators, but some of them can be. Even paying their rent every month can be tough. And I tell them, you're an amazing pastry chef.
44:48You should be on this platform. It's not going to take away your full-time job, but maybe it will pay your rent by showing off the recipes you make, the ideas you have, having something to say. and I mentioned the app because I think the real differentiator for Substack versus any other platform is distribution it's the hardest thing for creators right now and we have this app that is regularly surpassing X and Reddit in the app store for new downloads which means that there are millions of people who are one click away from subscribing to you and you getting their email address forever and you can hit them with free and premium content That can be video, that can be group chats, that can be lives, that can be newsletters and recipes.
45:35We're really solving that in a way that I think is so exciting. And I think we're just getting started on that distribution angle that's happening in the app. And just to be clear, you know, Substack, you take 10 % of any paid subscription, but you don't own any of the content. meaning the IP is retained by the creator. They can go and use that IP in their cookbooks and in other work. Is that correct? Yeah, absolutely. So it's also free to use if you don't turn on paid subscriptions. If you just want to get started, start down on the app and start making stuff. And I feel strongly that there's no better way to sell a cookbook than starting a sub stack.
46:19And yeah, it is actually surprisingly easy to just pick up and leave at any time if you wanted to, though I'm confident you would not. Yeah. Yeah, it seems that way. I mean, you see people moving around from Substack and off Substack, and it seems it's frictionless. But I agree the app is, to me as a user of it, pretty infrequently. But when I do dip in, it seems like your tech roadmap is pretty solid. You're going to be improving it and building it out. And I mean, I believe what you're saying. I know there's a lot of chatter about social networks and Substack is trying to be a network and not a platform for creators.
46:59But I feel like you have to have the good stuff on the newsletter, in the inbox for it to work. It's not just like posting X-related, X-like thoughts into the Substack app. That kind of doesn't work. Correct me if I'm wrong. the thing that i think works is you have to have the the goods in the inbox but in the inbox at this point can mean anything jim mccasa left cnn last month and is running a daily live show on subsec and he has more than 10 000 paid subscribers by just having this like intimate accessible video that's his delivery into the inbox jim is also posting on that notes feed with observations about the news of the day.
47:46I think Claire de Burr, who to me, I feel this very genuinely, is that she is, to me, the best food writer in America. To me, no one writes about food in a way that helps break you free from recipes in the way Claire does. Claire was the chef at King, is the chef at Sissinghouse now. She has a wonderful Substack. And Claire posts to that notes feed on Substack with observations about writing and recipes and being a mom and gets subscribers in a way that really works. And so I think you can use it like X or Blue Sky or Instagram in that way. And you'll get the subscribers if you also deliver on making something that feels essential and hits people's inboxes every week.
48:34Yeah, fair point. And I got to dip in more. I actually don't use it enough. I mean, to be totally fair, I think actually the classic Substack audience is people who are like, dear God, I don't want another app, right? Before I started working here, I felt that way too. And partially because I work here, I check it every day. But I also think another important thing with the app is that we have an algorithm specifically designed to drive subscriptions. The algorithm does not reward scrolling. It rewards consumption of the content the creator makes and subscriptions. And at the moment, I think that's working pretty well in the feed.
49:16But as that scales, it's so exciting to me of how much better it can be than other feeds as it rewards things that are different than other platforms. Totally. And, you know, it's not for clickbait. Like you have to actually have the goods. I think you used that term and I like that about Substack. I want to jump into a little bit of the conversation around this, I would call it a saturation of substacks. I think when I wrote about it in 2020, there were very few, and I was so excited. And again, linked to that piece. But today, five years later, there's way more and way more good ones, too. That's the other thing.
49:55It's not just people throwing shit against the wall. It's actually a lot of high quality. So when, Austin, when you talk to creators about like this moment of, you know, having 20 sub stacks they subscribe to, I think I subscribe to 20 and I love it. Like I'm not, I'm not hitting unsubscribe that often. But what do you, what do you say to those folks, our listeners who maybe want to start their, their first sub stack, you know, today? Is there a future where, you know, there's, there's room for everyone? I think there really is. I started this thing, I'm doing it at zero subscribers. It's now my favorite thing I do every week.
50:36I don't really have a background in this stuff. I have, especially in food, I have friends of mine with no social following, just starting and seeing how it works. The thing we've added that I'm really excited about is that you no longer need to build a website and design a website to have a sub stack. You can just download the app and get started. and whether or not you want to connect payments and let people pay you is totally up to you. But the thing that I think will continue to always work on Substack is that if you have something compelling to say that feels essential to people, whether you write it or record it in a video or do it as a voice memo or a group chat, people are going to find it in this app.
51:29We're going to make sure people find it If it's compelling, people are going to share it. And I have heard the concern, certainly, that there might be a saturation at some point. But I don't think we're anywhere close to that. People are launching on Substack and crossing six figures in annual revenue regularly. Some of those people have external audiences that they bring over. But when they do that, they're also bringing a ton of new people into the network to pay for new creators. And I think especially in food, you can set a goal with your sub stack that it's your full-time job and full-time income.
52:10Or you can set a goal. My goal is that it pays my mortgage. And it doesn't do that. But I am pushing for that. And I think that would be so cool if that happens. And I think that's a great goal that more people could aim for. Yeah, man, I buy it. I think that's great. I think you're right. I think there's a big audience out there. And really, as our appetites shift in the media landscape, specifically in food, shifts drastically. And, you know, there's been quite a few shutterings of establishment food media over the past couple of years. There's a really bright future in food on Substack. You mentioned Violet.
52:50You mentioned Claire. Love those Substacks. I'd like to get a few more of your favorites in the food space. Let's start with some big ones. I look at that leaderboard and we've got friends of the show on there. We've got people I want to know on there. Some of the biggest ones, what are your favorites? Yeah, I learned how to cook from reading Alison Roman's books. I didn't grow up in a home with cooking. We ate out a bunch, but no one taught me how to cook. I started working at ESPN right after college in Central Connecticut with nothing to do and just cooked my way through Allison's first book.
53:29And then her second one, I think that inspires a lot of the way I think about food at home. She's a legend. All of her recipes work perfectly. So it's obvious, but subscribe to Allison, make Allison's food. She's the greatest. I love - And also, I'll just jump in, just a terrific writer too. Yes. And I've always said that on the show and off. It's like a really, really, really talented voice driven writer with something to say. Yeah. Her piece last year about her store and just creativity, it was brilliant. And one of my favorite things I read all year. So completely agree. Similarly, on the writing front, I love when Emily Sundberg covers restaurants on Feed Me.
54:18It's the kind of thing that I would hope to be able to do. She does real reporting. She has real information no one else has. She has great taste, a great point of view. She covers that side of the dining scene incredibly well and in a way that I think traditional food media struggles with at times due to a bunch of different kinds of pressures. So, you know, it's not in every issue of Feed Me, but I mean, Feed Me is one of the things I read as soon as it hits my inbox and I'm stoked when there's restaurant stuff in there. And then we had Jay Lee on as well, the anonymous or semi-anonymous restaurant critic of Feed Me.
55:03We had him on the show and in the studio and I'm watching his career grow, too. So I love Emily's observation. Jay Lee, also great. And then I mentioned I mentioned Claire earlier. I don't know if you would describe Claire as, as, as huge or, or growing on subsec. She's been around for, for a while. I think she turned on paid last year. But like I said, like I, if I were learning how to cook right now, kind of like what I did with Alison, I would certainly still consume all three of Alison's books. But I think what Claire does is, is just really unmatched. And her subsec is essential for anyone who is either a new novice home cook or an expert.
55:49There's really no one who to me does what she's doing. Well, let's jump to maybe some, I don't know, or our listeners certainly don't know, some maybe like modest followings or even like growing followings, folks that you think we should definitely be introduced to. Yeah, my friend Gabby Skelzo runs the Substack called Perfect City, covering New York restaurants. To me, it's like the perfect way to use Substack as a new writer, creator on the platform in the app. It has a strong point of view, which is that New York City is a perfect restaurant dining out city. And here's why. Usually it's like a friend or a subscriber sends a question of, you know, where should I take my parents on a Thursday night in New York?
56:40Gabby's very plugged in, gives recommendations there. There's a really good group chat to share recommendations in a way I like. And Gabby just has a really great voice and approach to this thing. and I think she's growing it really well. Our mutual friend, also Emily Wilson, who runs the Angel on Substack. I think about this the same way I think about sports on Substack. I work with some people who cover local sports on Substack and love it and make good money doing it because there's not great options for it. What Emily Wilson does with the Angel covering the LA food scene by telling the stories of the people who are here and giving recommendations and building a good community around it is a thing that I love and need as someone who lives out here in LA.
57:35But also I look around and I'm like, every city should have this. There's someone in every city who can do this kind of thing and who can do it independently. and I would love for Emily to be a model to other people to do more of that all across the country and across the world. And then Brooks Wright, who runs a bunch of great restaurants in New Orleans, also has a wonderful subsec and is just a great guy that I actually want to have on Fangers and Jams for a conversation soon. Yeah, I love Brooks. And his restaurants in Charleston in New Orleans. and he's got a great voice because he's doing food but he's also doing his own fashion and grooming pics and it's a great mixed bag I have a couple I want to shout out I'm in the app now I don't want to make anyone feel bad if I don't mention you but I try to mention as many as possible in our Friday newsletter Mahira Rivers writes Sweet City which focuses on bakeries in New York and I just love Mahira's style and just like the work.
58:40She went on like a 50 chocolate chip cookie crawl over the course of six months. That was a good one. Kate, and I don't know if her last name is public, but bite-sized, a pretty small substack out of LA. But I love her voice and I love the way she has a real sense of LA events and just like news. It's kind of like a great complimentary follow to the angel if you want like good LA intel. Those are two. I got to shout out Cakezine as well. Cakezine is on Substack as well as a print publication. They're always publishing great stuff. That's Eliza's publication. Those are all great ones. No, really good.
59:21Also, I forgot Mina Park, who is a co-owner of Baroo, off and on will publish on Substack. Baroo, I think, is one of the three best restaurants in LA, one of the best restaurants in the country. and Mina is a beautiful writer about family and restaurants and the challenges of managing them and I think is a really great model and inspiration for anyone who works in food and is interested in this kind of thing and it's like, when would I have the time? What would I say? I would check out Mina, who's a star. I love that. I have three more quickies. Snackshot, Andrea Hernandez, CPG, Watchdog, hilarious writing, incredibly articulate and sourced journalism in the packaged food game.
1:00:11Wise is interesting. Been a longtime fan. I've written for them quite a bit. And I think that for a daily send, I'm always learning shit from them. And my last one is Vittles, which we've had Jonathan in our pages, and I hope to have him on the show at some point. But if you're going to London, Vittles is taking over. Wouldn't you agree? there's nothing like vittles there's it's anything like i look at what jonathan does and i'm like oh that isn't that isn't a thing i is ever attainable for me he's like oh he's a one of one it's incredible but i whenever i go to london i do the deepest of deep dives into everything he's written and everything vittles has done well i loved like walking through some favorites.
1:00:57And, you know, I'm going to link to all of those sub stacks in the show notes. So you can take a spin through them and subscribe and support. You know, I know there's, we all have very finite budgets, but if you're going to support something like you're going to support a public radio or public television, think about supporting sub stack. I say that having no stake in the game. I just think it's great to support creators. Let's talk about Grubstack. In a couple of days, you're launching, I think it's the first kind of a digital food festival. And I wanted to have you on Austin just to talk about this because it's very smart, creative, bringing together many of the creators we mentioned, some other ones as well for some programming.
1:01:39What is this Grubstack all about? Yeah, we're really stoked for this. It starts in a few days. It is a three-day live video food festival on Substack. We've done a few of these before in other categories. We did one around the election and politics. We did one in the finance business space in January to look ahead to what's going to happen in the market. But food is one of the biggest categories on Substack. Food and drink publishers collectively earn more than$18 million annually in paid subscriptions it's also i think to me the the category that pulls in community and video and collabs in a way that very few other categories can and so there's going to be a lot of different things there's some people doing solo cook-alongs there's some people doing live conversations about like what's coming next in food claire de burr is gonna have a live conversation there.
1:02:44Notorious Foodie, who recently launched a big creator on TikTok and Instagram, is going to do a cooking demo. Odolenghi is going to participate as well. We're about to have a bunch of names joining this thing. And the part of it that I'm most excited about is that we're watching this kind of magic happen through Substack Live Video, which, you know if you're just looking at the product kind of looks the same as as a live you would watch on on instagram or tiktok it's it's in your phone it's accessible but the way that live interacts with subscription is that it builds this incredible level of intimacy with these creators in a way that i think is just oftentimes not as powerful as it can be like in your inbox right it's like oh i'm actually watching caroline chambers cook and i'm the real thing i'm doing is i'm watching caroline chambers make a mistake while she's cooking and fix it like on the fly that's incredible and a thing that oftentimes gets edited out of more highly produced videos on on tiktok or youtube and so i had this i had this conversation with with carlo lally music the other week about her quitting youtube to go all in on sub stack and sub stack video in particular after spending a ton of money trying to get a youtube channel going and we have carl is going to be a part of this festival as well and to me carl is a great example of someone who sees that this like lo-fi intimate accessible form of video creation like might actually be a very real future of this space and often ways like what the audience wants.
1:04:32And so we will be showing that off for a few days right in the app. Well, it's really, really cool that you're showing the products in real time, you know, live video and how chat works. And really, I'm totally buying Substack stock. I know I can't do that, but metaphorically speaking, at least, I feel like we're going to hear a lot from Substack in the next five years. And Austin, I really appreciate the work you're putting in and, you know, helping getting these voices out there and honestly helping getting people paid for their work. I mean, it's a huge issue in food writing and you're really helping folks out.
1:05:13Thank you. Thank you. We're very excited about it. The thing that I feel the best about right now, too, is that people are coming to Substack and they have that guarantee that their audience will actually see their work. I saw a stat in a report that actually Patreon put out the other day that fewer than 50 % of your audience on TikTok or Instagram is guaranteed to actually see the posts or stories you put up. And on Substack, 100 % of your audience sees your post. They get notified of your live videos. They can tune in there. And then like you said, some percentage of them can convert to paid subscribers and support your work long term, which is incredibly exciting.
1:06:00Well, Austin, I'm going to link to all the sub stacks and link to Grubstack in the show notes. Check it out. Thanks a lot. And definitely let's do this again in the studio. I really appreciate it. Let's do it. I can't wait. Thanks so much, man.
1:06:18This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, Director of Media Production and Development at Penguin Random House Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House Theme music by Steve Rydell Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter To keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste
From the publisher
Calvin Eng is the chef and owner of Bonnie’s, a very popular Cantonese American restaurant in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. He’s also the author of a great new cookbook: Salt Sugar MSG, an introduction to his unique style of home cooking, cowritten with his partner, Phoebe Melnick. It’s so fun to have Calvin in the studio to talk about growing up in New York’s many Chinatowns, developing recipes for home cooks (instead of line cooks), and more.
Also on the show, Matt has a fun conversation with Substack’s Austin Tedesco. We love Substack and talked about the upcoming Grubstack virtual festival, running from March 13-15. We also talked about how Substack is helping writers reach wide audiences, and go over some of our favorites. Mentioned on the episode: Bangers and Jams, Alison Roman, Feed Me, Vittles, Sweet City, The Best Bit, Perfect City, Bite Sized, The Angel, Cake Zine, Sook, A Small & Simple Thing, Snaxshot, Why Is This Interesting?
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