557: Can Doughnuts Be World-Class Desserts? Fany Gerson Makes a Sweet Case.

26:51Nobody's gone to cooking school. Nobody has sort of background. So I wanted to do a donut that you're connected to, you know, kind of the way instinctively. And that's hard to teach because first you have to understand it. So the one thing that changes in our dough is the liquid. The liquid changes depending on how humid it is, how hot it is. But it's not like, oh, we have a chart. It's 70 degrees today. This is hydration you're talking about, right? The hydration. Exactly. And so we make Mexican cinnamon tea that goes into all our dough. So that's the first part, like getting the right amount of liquid.

27:33But again, you don't have a chart. You don't have – after the first – like you have to feel it. Like what's it feel like? And we use like fresh nutmeg because, again, to me all these little things add up. We could use regular nutmeg, but there's some really good ones out there. But again, I feel like all these things make a difference. So first, it's the actual making of the dough, feeling that it's right. And then as it rises, how do you, you know, we have like a sheeter, which is this machine that helps us roll it out. But that doesn't do the entire work. No. It does part of the work so that they're as even.

28:07But then you have to finish. We finish it by hand, like with the, you have to like caress it. I'm just like, think of it as like a baby. You have to literally put your emotions in it. You know, kind of like water for chocolate kind of things. And then we cut it. There's these sort of like rolling pins that act as like donut cutters that big places use. We don't use that. And there's also cutters that already has like the, you know, the outer and the inner. We don't use those either. We cut literally the outside circle, the little circle, like thousands of donuts. We make them this way. Then they get put into a sheet pan.

28:46And then they get put into this cabin that has, again, it's not an actual proofer. And then you have to see when it's ready. And it has to talk to you. Because if it's not ready, it might not be raw. But it's going to affect how oily it is. Because it's something that's fried, but it shouldn't feel heavy or oily. That's the trick. And that's why making them at home is impossible to ask and why so many donut shops are industrial because they have their version of what a donut is. They make them in one state. They freeze them and send them to other states. But yeah. But like I love what you just said about the process because it is like making any pastry.

29:31This isn't just a donut. No. This is like pastry. Let's get real. And speaking of pastry, you created your own pastry, the fan fan. It's like a hybrid, right? I think like a long john. Yeah. I mean, it's not like a mix like the cronut is, but it is. Oh, the cronut. Oh, yeah, that one. But it's inspired by, so I had never had a long john. And a friend of mine was like, oh, my daughter, she just like loves long johns. Oh, Midwest guy here. I had them. Yeah. So I looked them up and I was like, oh, those are, you know, they're like, I said, I like the idea of it of how you eat it but they seem very very big yeah you know and i said i love how you treat like an eclair you know so i said how can i make and i got some sort of cutters in france uh when i went and uh in paris to be able to to get the right so they they're the shape of an eclair and the way sort of you think about eclairs are more like delicate they're more but again And keeping the fun.

30:40So that balance of making it special and doing sort of, this is where I bring, I mean, in my donuts, I bring sort of like all the knowledge I had in pastry in the fancy restaurants. But bringing here in a place where, again, we don't have a control environment to do like tempered chocolates or anything like that. But to make, you know, like really beautiful curds, we make our own jams. We make our own sprinkles. Oh, yeah. You know, like, and we don't, I don't like to use any colorings or flavorings of any kind. All natural. But I love color. So when you come in, you'll see a lot of tropical flavors, which are obviously inspiring.

31:19I mean, having a really fresh curd with seasonal citrus or other fruit. Yeah. It's incredible. What does it mean to be long listed for the beards for a donut shop? What does that feel like? I can't even, I can't even believe it. Like the day I found out I was like sick in bed with the biggest flu. And I had, I got an email from someone like a local news and said, oh, congratulations. And can you send some photos? And I was, I was in the middle of writing like fake news. Like, I don't know. Like, who are you? And then a friend of mine, you know, was like, oh, my God, oh, my God. And I just, you know, it means so much.

32:01I honestly don't have the right words to say. But particularly in the, it's sort of like you have so much hard work and intention and love. And it's collective. Like, this isn't just about me. It's about everybody that is part of the team, but also that has supported. But it's also my donut journey has had a lot of ups and downs that I haven't, you know, emotionally with the partnerships and all of that. And I've tried to put that sort of on the side like nobody, you know, we're in the business of making people happy. It's really cool that the James Beer Foundation recognizes donuts. Yes. Because I think if you listen to this far, you just heard what goes into making a donut.

32:47And I think that we sometimes get stuck in like fancy French plated desserts are like pastry, but donuts are not. But clearly they're the same. Yeah. I mean, I think like there's so much that goes into at least I can say like there's so much hard work and attention to like I said, we could do I could buy the jam. I could buy, you know, if you could even buy the glazes, you know, but every single donut that I made like has so much. intention and so much like, you know, my husband is, you know, probably my biggest cheerleader and he's just, he feeds my crazy. And I love that, you know, and it's, I just, and I also, to me, once when I reopened the donut space and this new, you know, for Fan Fan Donuts, what I really wanted to, I thought about what, a lot about what it means to be an immigrant and have a small business in a place like New York.

33:46You know, like New York is just so tough. Not just, I'm not even talking about the competition, but it's just so tough to have a business here in every angle that you can think of. And so I really wanted to, and I felt even what had happened to me in like the former partnership, you know, that had to do with the fact that, you know, I was uneducated. Yeah. in many ways, you know, of what legal standpoint, you know, like I'm fluent in English, but it's still my second language and you just think differently. So I really wanted to use the donuts as a canvas to explore and celebrate different cultures.

34:27You bring up the word immigrant and it just comes to mind. We hear this word, we read it in the news and, you know, as a Mexican-American, you know, the current political climate and the new presidential administration has directly targeted Mexican immigrants. Yeah. I would love to get your take, you know, for the show about how you're feeling, how you're doing with this really strong language being put out there and actions, of course. Yeah. I mean, I feel very scared, to be honest. I feel very just like I'm an eternal optimist. Yeah. But I am feeling I can see it. But I'm feeling quite pessimistic and it feels scary.

35:13I mean, all our staff is immigrants, not all Mexicans. I feel that having someone in leadership. not just lie, but feed the lies and just, you know, create all this hatred and all of this discourse. And, you know, nobody talks about, I'm not saying nobody, but it really gets talked about, you know, why so many people come here? Why are they here illegally? You know, does it, they're not here most of those immigrants that they're referring to come here to have a better life. They're escaping a terrible situation, not even talk about what they did to be here or how much they contribute to society, how much they contribute to the economy that they're so worried about.

36:12And so just having this, you know, negative and frankly, disgusting and awful, like, it's just, it's really upsetting. It's just, so I feel like what, and I feel helpless. I feel what, what, what can we do? What can, and I felt, you know, in a very different way, but in the pandemic, when, you know, one of the first things that we started to, to think about was what's going to happen with all these undocumented workers? because if there is aid, I remember a lot of friends were talking about, oh, but the government has to give us money and we're going to have to help us out. And I don't know. I was like, I'm like, what?

36:53They're going to help us out? You can't just depend on the government to give you. But I said, even if aid comes, they're going to be forgotten. So the immigrants in this country make the economy in the country. You know, like they are - Full stop, full stop. That's it. That's it. So we don't we not only don't take care of them. I mean, it is just we could we could go on. And the dissonance there, obviously, from political rhetoric and the real talk and the real actions of our country, that dissonance will come into full picture as these new policies take shape and the economy suffers. It's obviously going to happen.

37:34And I would like to ask you, and thank you for sharing this because it's important. How do you speak to your staff who maybe don't have documentation, who maybe are here illegally? how do you speak to them? Because they're looking to you, I'm sure, as their boss and you're a mentor to many. I know you're, can you dig for optimism at all? And just in general, staying safe out there? What I try to do is try to get informed because there's a lot of misinformation on how we can best help. So, you know, like the consulate, the Mexican consulate, We have contacts there. Not everybody is Mexican, but they have at least the information.

38:18These are your rights. This is what you need to do. What can we do as employers? I contacted a couple of lawyers, you know, to be like, look, if not just you, but anybody in your circle is affected, you know, because this is a whole community. And so it's and we have, you know, there's an organization called Mixteca. in Brooklyn that we work a lot with and they work, you know, they're a nonprofit immigrant organization. And so first it's just trying to have the information and try to tell them, like, this is what we're doing. We are, you know, but the truth is, is like there's everybody and they themselves, they're like, oh, don't go to, you know, Sunset Park.

39:12Like, don't stop. There are certain people that are stopping people here. It's terrifying. It's terrifying, you know? It's terrifying. And so it's more like just also listening and asking, what can we do? Like, what, you know, do you need to take a different route? Do you need to come at a different time? Do you need to, you know, but literally, and this is a small, you know, these are small businesses, and but also some of them are terrified of like their kids going to school because you hear it in the news like they're going they're trying to go into schools and you know in chicago they didn't let them in but it's also they're like well this president not only hates immigrants not only hates um specifically you know hispanics but also has an agenda against democrat democratic states You know, so they feel like we're going to be targeted more.

40:08Yeah, it's an intensity that is clear. I mean, before we move on to the next topic, I think in the news, for those who maybe subscribe to the new administration, there's a lot of information about there about who these immigrants are. There's a lot of hateful speech out there, a lot of portrayal of violence and criminality. Who is working for you? Who are these people? What are their backgrounds? I think that you just hit the nail on the head. My brother, who is a lawyer, who is a law professor in Chicago, he just wrote this article that came out yesterday on Slate talking about these detention camps.

40:47And he has this quote, which I can't. So, Pedro, please forgive me for misquoting you. But talks about how the rhetoric is so much about like these criminals and, you know, they are here illegally, but the majority of the immigrants that they are talking about are not part of a criminal. They don't have criminal activities. They don't affect. They have quite the opposite. You know, they are productive members of society. They are incredibly, incredibly hardworking. They're dedicated, you know, mothers, fathers, siblings, you know, children. Like they're just the most wonderful, sorry, people that were just, you know, they're just trying to have a better life for themselves, for their families.

41:50and they contribute to society in only positive ways. You know, like it's infuriating, but it's just heartbreaking. I see it in your face. I see it in your face, Fannie. I see it in your body language, and you're feeling this. And thank you for sharing. I'm sorry you're going through this right now. Yeah. You know, I often talk about, you know, I don't know if you have this, like if you won the lottery, what could you do? Right. What do you do? Why not? We'll ask the question. You won the lottery. But I always say, like, I literally had this conversation again with my husband. And I was like, I would get everybody that's been working for us that doesn't have it, like, I would get them their papers.

42:34Yeah. Or help them out in a way that they could go back. Because that's the thing. You know, it's like they just talking to them, like anybody, like anybody out there that knows anybody, just ask them how they came here. just to hear their stories. That's a really good suggestion if maybe you're on the fence about this topic, frankly. Yeah, just ask. Frankly on the fence. Like, why are you here? Tell me about what you, and put yourself in their shoes. I'll link to Misteca. I'll link to the resources in the show notes. Check that out. I'm sure your line is open in socials. If anyone listening to this wants, who lives in New York and needs information, I'm sure you would respond.

43:21Yeah, of course. I'm going to transition here, and I want to talk about cookbooks because we've published three of your books here, terrific books. My Sweet Mexico, Mexican Ice Cream and Paletas, and they're favorites of ours. Thank you for doing them. Thank you. We love them. They're beautiful. You know, are there any general ideas or thoughts about what drives you to write books? These books are so singular. And what draws you to writing cookbooks? So the first cookbook, My Sweet Mexico, was actually the book I kept looking for. When I started out, I was working at a restaurant called Rosa Mexicano.

44:00They had just opened in the Upper West Side, and that was my first job as a pastry chef. And so I went back to Mexico and I said, oh, I'm going to look for these, you know, sort of traditional recipes and try to give them like a modern twist. And then I realized that I hadn't thought of it before then, honestly, but because you kind of take it for granted that most of the food traditions and particularly the sweets of Mexico are part of an oral tradition, meaning they're passed down from generation to generation. There's not a lot of documentation. There's not a lot written about it. And so even in Spanish, and I kept just looking for it because people are very, it translates as jealous, very celosos about what, but it's really for a lot of people, it's like their most priced possession.

44:50So they'd rather, literally, I've had people say like, I'd rather go to my grave and not share this recipe. It's like a legacy. And so that was the first book. and then the second book, paletas, I had started making them. And then ice cream, I just love ice cream. And Mexican ice cream is not as known as like gelato or, you know, like even ice creams in Argentina. Oh, but if you go to Mexico, like Guanajuato, I had this incredible ice cream in that town. What did you have? Oh, I had cinnamon. I had tropical fruit. I had mani. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I love most about Mexican ice creams, whether it's a stand or a store, is when you go, you see at least half, if not more, of the selection, their water-based or their sorbets because of all the tropical fruits.

45:48And I love fruit the way people love chocolate, you know? And so it's just, and you have, then you have flavors like queso fresco and you have, it is just, it's not so much about like the chunks in it or like the mix-ins. It's about like the purity of the flavor and it's just, they're just amazing. And so I think what drives me is just my love for them, to be honest, and just to be able to want to tell. And my intention with the books that I've written is, you know, there's a lot of stories and a lot of history about, you know, our culture. And I want, you know, my intention is, particularly with My Sweet Mexico, was, you know, if you want to not cook anything from it, for you to learn about, you know, history and the culture and be transported.

46:39it. And in the other way, that if you don't care to read about it and you just want to make something, that it's going to be delicious and it's going to take you there as well. And then the other ones, you know, kind of echo that, but they're just more like sort of more fun. And I just, you know, I love my roots and it's my way of sharing. You know, it's like I want to share in as many stories and highlight the people that make it magical. And paletas is one in particular that just such cookable recipes. Yeah, that's a very fun, you know, like now it's super fun because I go through them with my son.

47:19I'm like, which one do you want to go to? Oh, fun. That's great. You know, yeah. What about future book plans? You must have something that you're cooking up. What can you say? Yes. So I have finished my latest book proposal and we are in the shopping around phase. And this is, I can't say what it is. I don't want to jinx it. And I don't even know if I'm allowed. But I will say this is the first that will go into the savory crossover. There'll be sweet and savory. And it has to do with Mexico. Well, I cannot wait to read that book. Yes, I'm so excited. And there will be for sure a donut. I would imagine there's a donut.

47:58There's at least a donut recipe. And you'll have to create one that actually you make at home. because I still think donuts at home is like an impossible task. I think, you know, I think it's not impossible, but it is. I mean, it's also like very time consuming. There's a lot of waiting that happens. And I think that's the hardest part. But there's also people are afraid of frying, you know, and so instinctively when you fry, like you want to be away from it. And so you're like, oh, my God. But you have to be watching it. But the further away, like when you actually throw something, that's when you're going to get burnt.

48:32You have to get close to it. Well, I can't wait. We'll make donuts together. Together. I need a lesson. Yes. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea. Aura Frames. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love. And a gift that can be purchased in no time with a few clicks of the mouse. Aura Frames are great. They sent me one to check out, and it was really cool and dumb simple to set up. I loaded photos using the app, and it was displaying them instantly.

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49:51That's A-U-R-A frames dot com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies.

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51:09It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Fannie, this is Taste. We ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check.

51:49Are you ready? I am ready. The best fruit. Oh, guanamana. Oh, yeah. Soursop. Soursop. It's hard to find in America. Hard to find. Yeah. Florida has some. Yeah. But also mango and cherries and apricots. I mean, I can't limit to one. But that was the first one that came to mind. Tamarind. The worst vegetable. Oh, easy. Peppers. Bell peppers. Hate them. Arch enemy in our household. Arch enemy. Just like in my family. My sister, my brother, and I just equally hate no matter the color. What is your typical breakfast? Oh, I don't have like a typical breakfast, but more of a savory. I love Mexican breakfast.

52:36So one of the things I make the most is huevos rancheros. So it's like a tortilla, although I try not to do it fried, even though traditionally they're fried. and it has like a fried egg. And then I always have salsa and you just put some salsa there. That's amazing. You know, it's like a filling. So I try to do sort of the healthier version of it. Sounds like the perfect breakfast. It's great. We've all had our versions of that. Yeah. What's yours? You're posing it back to me. Well, if you ask, I mean, listen, I'm a Greek yogurt head, but I have some great local yogurts in the Hudson Valley too that I have.

53:13I was going to ask if you have a particular brand. Strained yogurts, but yeah. I think it's like Four Star Farms. I think that's the one I like. But I typically am a breakfast protein guy. Yeah. Have you tried White Mustache? Oh, of course. I love. Amazing product. Oh, my God. Amazing company, too. Yeah. She's amazing. Yeah, it's a great company. Thank you for posing the question back. Wow. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? I'm going to say something that is, don't take offense, but I would say outside the United States. Okay, great. You know? Into that. Because in America, it's like, as a Mexican, it's just like...

53:52Yeah, no, I will reframe it. Outside of North America. So if you're heading on a plane... If I'm heading on a plane, I mean, I've never been to Southeast Asia, and I'm dying to go, and India. So those are like sort of two top... I mean, Southeast Asia isn't one country, it's many. But Mexico, you know, honestly. Yeah, that's the one. Okay. You are a restaurant person, and you've been here for a while in New York, 20 plus years. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Yes. There was this amazing pho place, like Vietnamese restaurant. It was like family owned on Hester Street.

54:34I think it was called Kong Li, if I remember correctly. But that was the first time I tried pha. My friend Alex Reich, I don't know if you know her, she's an amazing chef. She took me there. And I just love, I love soup. I love broth of any kind. And I just, and I never had one that was as good as that one. And I just, I loved, I would love to bring it back, you know. Now you made me sad for it. It was just amazing. Not just the memory of it, but every time I went, And it was just fantastic. Your favorite cookbook of all time? Oh, that's hard. There's a woman, her name was Josefina Velázquez de León.

55:20She wrote a few cookbooks in Mexico, very sort of home cooking. And I think it was sort of like the first time, like they're meaningful to me in that way that I was like when I was starting to do research that I was like, oh, wow. Like she wasn't a chef. She wasn't, you know, she had this book that I think would translate to like economic cooking. So it was like things that were affordable. That was so cool. So I have a few of those that I love. I also love on food and cooking. I'm not like molecular. Yeah. Like at all. But that when I went to cooking school and I read that book for the first time, it was like something like I wouldn't.

55:58It's not a cookbook. It's on food and cooking. It's not a thing. It's not. It's its own thing. It's a textbook, but it's also... I mean, it's hard. I guess it depends on the categories. No, you answered it well. You know. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Oh, torta de milanesa. So in Mexico, we have tortas, which are our version of a sandwich. Does that count? Of course. Yeah. Very much a sandwich. We drafted sandwiches probably two years ago, and I think the torta was definitely in the top five. So very much a sandwich. Oh, yeah. So it's, you know, it's kind of like a, it's like a crusty roll type thing, but more oval shaped.

56:40And with black beans, chicken milanesa, which is like a battered and... Yeah, cutlet. Yeah, cutlet. Thank you. And cheese and chilies and, oh, lettuce tomato. Chilies. Let's... Yes. That's the angle. Because you're like, okay, this is like a chicken parm virgin. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. But no, you have to have chilies. Like pickled chiles. See, that's the... So you have the acidity of it and then you have the spice of it. Damn. So delicious. That sounds amazing. Is there one in New York that you could find? Not off the top of my head. You know, there's a place actually not too far from here, Tulcingo del Valle, that I had one a while back and it was pretty good.

57:21Do you make a torta? Yeah. A mijo? No, we don't make it a mijo, but funnily enough, but we make it at home. My husband, he had the idea of opening a torta place in New York. But we felt for some reason, even though New Yorkers love sandwiches and they would love a torta, I don't feel like it would. I have thoughts. Offline, we'll go. Yeah. I have thoughts. But I love. Have you tried a Milanesa torta? No, I haven't. No, I haven't. You see, we need to go searching. Searching. You and I on the road. We'll bring the recorder along. Let's do it. Let's do it. Fanny Gerson, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

57:59Thank you so much for having me.

58:10Eliza, we're back. How are you? I'm good, Matt. How are you? I'm great. This is a new concept for us, and I kind of like what we're going to do right now. Now, we talk about so many restaurants that we go to, and we give these recaps and get great feedback, and we will continue to dine out at restaurants. But we wanted to go over some restaurants that we want to go to. Now, we could frame this as a spring preview if we were doing a magazine. But honestly, that's not really what we do. We don't really do previews. And so I think when we were slacking yesterday, I was like, let's just go over like our wish list.

58:42And I will say about mine, I am only going off of media and social media. I haven't spoken with any of these chefs. I have a couple that people have told me about it. So like I'm using that with a grain of salt. I cannot vouch for the quality of these restaurants. That is the official warning sign because I've not been. But yet we want to go. We want to go for a lot of reasons, too. Broadly speaking, Eliza, let me ask you, how do you when you look at like restaurants as a whole in New York or otherwise, what makes you excited about a restaurant? I think there's a couple of different factors. Certainly if it's a style of food that I just love and I'm drawn to, or if it's a chef that I've liked their other work or they've cooked at other places that I'm interested in.

59:26I think the location matters a lot, whether it's easy for me to get to or it's in like kind of a destination neighborhood that I would plan a whole day of eating around. And then, you know, if people are talking about it, if people whose taste I respect or friends of mine are really enjoying their meals out somewhere, I think that's probably the thing that would make me the most excited to go somewhere. Yeah, me too. too. I think when you hear about it firsthand, especially in our studio, if we're talking to guests or just in general, I love that. I really lean into media a bit, maybe too much.

59:55I'm reading the heat lists of various publications. I just have tremendous respect for our peers who are doing the work and promoting or covering restaurant openings. So I'm always looking, I'm reading the blogs and reading the publications, but also cuisine is great. I love when you say that. I try to think about restaurants that I'm familiar with the cuisine for some of them. But if there's a restaurant that is doing something way outside of my comfort zone or my knowledge, I will absolutely go there just to try it. So that's how I look at it, too. Should we get into it? Let's get into this.

1:00:26What's your first one? My first one, I really want to go to Zimmy's in the West Village. It's a new French place, which I know West Village French may not seem groundbreaking, but I've just heard great things from my friends who have been there, especially my friends who work in the hospitality space. I think it's been one of the most talked about openings. The chef, Maxime Praday. I'm sorry for my French. It's really good. I think you nailed it. He's ex-Ignacio Matos' group. He was the CDC at Lodi and he was at Floribar before that. But he's really inspired by his family's homestyle Southern French cooking.

1:00:57And I think it just seems like a really cozy and thoughtful place. And I've just heard great things from my friends who work in hospitality. I think it's like the most talked about place right now. I love that. It's on my list. Not this list, but in my in my Google Docs. It's in there in the Google Maps. In the Google Maps. My first one is Golden Hoff. Now, I have been the biggest fan of Golden Diner and Sam Yu. And this restaurant is the extension of the Golden Diner universe. It's a Korean Hoff, which is kind of a chicken and beer restaurant. That's like more of the traditional definition. But this restaurant, from what I can tell, again, I've not been there, is really doing some really innovative cooking around this kind of paradigm.

1:01:38It's located in Rock Center, like steps from Saturday Night Live studio and NBC Studios. I feel, you know, those guys have a new after work hang. And what I like about this, this restaurant was originally Sam Yu's parents' restaurant. It was New York kimchi, and it was like a restaurant in a kimchi shop. And I remember stopping by and it being really cool. And being in this neighborhood that doesn't have a lot of Korean restaurants. And then just looking at the menu, I'm really, really excited. I love the way that these two pancakes are articulated. One is a crispy chive and the other is a crispy bacon with perilla ranch.

1:02:17Now crispy is like for both of them. They're like crispy pancake for both of them. And that is the most important element of a Korean pancake in my opinion. They do four styles of Korean fried chicken. That's twice fried. You know, everyone's had Korean fried chicken, very crispy. They do the traditional soy sauce and gojujan. Gojujan, so you have those two flavors that you can get pretty much anywhere. But the real wild cards are they do a Sichuan peppercorn and a General Sao's. So General Sao's fried chicken is amazing. And I also like the Dukboki carbonara. That's a dish that I've had around the country, so I can't wait to try theirs.

1:02:53And on the drink side, they're doing a Nang Nyan martini, which I don't drink alcohol, but maybe they can do it in NA. Love the idea of Nang Nyan broth being articulated into a cold beverage. and they're doing a Jeju margarita, which is with Blanco tequila and tangerines and super, super smart having tangerine juice in a cocktail like that. It's called Golden Hoff. Can't wait to go. Yeah, I'm a big Golden Diner fan and I love having things in Midtown that I can go to on my way back to Brooklyn after work. No doubt. I love that. What's your next one? I really want to go to Suns, which is the wine bar run by Sunny Lee, who did the Banchon by Sunny pop-up, which I think had a big following around New York.

1:03:30I certainly always loved going to that. She also was cooking at Achilles heel most recently. I just like a wine bar concept that's not tinned fish. Yeah, yeah. No disrespect to the sardines. But I really want to eat things like roasted yellow wax beans with peanuts, samjong, and persimmon. Her hot toddy sounds really great to me. It's made with soju, yuzu, and lemon. It's a small space in the kind of lower Manhattan Chinatown area that just seems really cozy. and I always love supporting independent chefs who have a new place that's opening. This is in partnership with the guys from Parcells, so they have a really nice kind of pared-down wine list and it's just a place I want to go to.

1:04:10And it's called Suns? Suns. Love that. S-U-N-N. I'm absolutely going there this year. I cannot wait. My next one is a restaurant that has gotten a lot of press, at least in social media circles. I've seen it, I've heard it mentioned on podcasts, on food shows and other shows. It's called Smithereens. Have you been there yet? I have not been there yet, but I have been hearing about it also. And the chef there used to be at Penny and Claude. So I've eaten at some of those restaurants before. Well, Smithereens is a New England inspired restaurant. And really, they have a lobster roll. Sure, they have the lobster roll and it looks pretty great.

1:04:48What I'm reading is the seafood restaurant from the menu I read in early March, and they switch it often. in, there was no non-fish protein on the menu. So it's a really, really hardcore fish menu. And I love that they're adding specials to it. There was a collar, I think it was a hamachi collar that was stamped on the side of the menu, and I got some press. This hamachi collar is probably New York's most famous hamachi collar. But really, I like this restaurant. It's in the East Village. It's on 9th and 1st, and they're doing a cured fluke with rhubarb. They're doing these abalone skewers, which I'd love to see abalone done through their lens and see how they interpret it.

1:05:28And they have these big mains. They do a cod and clams and a big roasted monkfish. Seems like the beverage program is absolutely on point. It's a small little East Village restaurant. It's called Smitherines. I can't wait to visit. Yeah, I've been wanting to go to Smitherines. And the name. Sorry, the name is amazing. It's fun to say. It's fun to say. It's a great, you know, I would say a band with like maybe one and a half hits from the 80s. I apologize if there's more hits, but I get it on Sirius XM quite a bit. There's a couple of great songs. I feel like we were stuck in an era of like older, old fashioned first names for a long time for restaurants that were opening.

1:06:05And I like that we're moving into the onomatopoeia school of names. What's your next one? My next one is Taqueria El Chato, which opened in Greenpoint a couple months ago, I believe. It's from Chris Reyes and Gerardo Alcaraz. They do Aldama and also the bar Ponyboy in the Greenpoint area. And Shirley went to have tacos there and sent me a photo of her plate. And I just was like, damn, I need to eat these tacos. The al pastor, the lengua, the mushroom taco that she got, which I think would be even better as a quesadilla. It just looks really delicious and solid. And I love that Greenpoint is kind of becoming a taco neighborhood.

1:06:42There's like the, oh, what's that? I love that Greenpoint is becoming a taco neighborhood. There's S.A. Taco. There's obviously Taqueria Ramirez and Marisco Sumarino, like further up on Franklin. So I think this is going to be my next entry into the taco game is Taqueria El Chato. Amazing call. And I love that you're on the Taco Beat always. You're bringing new names to the podcast. It's a lifestyle, you know. It's a lifestyle. Well, my next one, I'm heading over to Los Angeles, and the name of the restaurant is Rasaruma. Tejal Rao had mentioned it on a previous chat, and I had not really heard too much about it, and I did some reading.

1:07:16And this is definitely my next stop in Los Angeles. It's a restaurant from the chef Johnny Lee. He was at Pearl River Deli, which was an incredible place that I got to go to before the pandemic, I think it was. The definition of Rasaruma is flavor house in Malay. And according to Eater, quote, Lee prepares a Chinese Malaysian menu with Indian and Indonesian influences. Really, really speaks to me, this style of cooking. Dishes include Wagyu beef chief rendang and crispy rice cakes with preserved daikon. I also like the pedigree. You know, it's from the team behind Found Oyster and their restaurants and really terrific operators there.

1:07:56The name is Rasaruma. I cannot wait to go. I love that you're having an L.A. wreck on the show. I got another one coming. OK, I'm going to stick in New York for my last rec just because there's so many places here I want to eat at. Cafe Kestrel and Red Hook. Have you been there yet? Oh, my gosh. No, I haven't. Absolutely not. I have been wanting to go to this neighborhood since it opened last summer. This is, I think, an example of press influencing a decision, which there were a couple of great write ups in The New Yorker with Hannah Goldfield, I believe. And then Priya did a review on The Times.

1:08:25I've had friends that have been going and it just seems like kind of a dreamy, perfect neighborhood restaurant, unfortunately, in a neighborhood that is not the easiest to get to from mine and doesn't really have subway access in general. So I think that's what's been keeping me from it. But I would love to have a Red Hook day. Maybe I'll go to Pioneer Works and then go there afterwards. Or I'll wait until it's nice out and it's a nice bike ride. I just think there are so many things on the menu that sound delicious to me. They have an applesauce ice cream sundae, which is inspired by a German dish that I just think sounds perfect.

1:08:55They do fried halloumi, but it's not maybe the more traditional fried halloumi. It's these crispy batons that are coated in wildflower honey and lots of spices. They have a crab salad on the menu right now with chicory, grapefruit, and creme fraiche. Oh, wow. That sounds really good to me. All things I want to eat this time of year. And also, like, the people running it are cool. The chef is Dennis Spina, who was at Metrograph Commissary most recently. And then Amanda McMillan, who's the managing director for Horseman, is on the drink side as well. And I have a lot of friends in the industry who are really excited that Amanda was opening her own project.

1:09:30Also, they have like a Watership Down reference on the menu. There's just a lot of things going on. It is VCU. Well, thinking Red Hook, this is one of my picks, but I got to go to Pitts, Jeremy Solomon's new place. It's on my list as well. It's not mentioned in the prep, but that's one that I'm looking forward to. Red Hook, take a bike ride over. I love, I really do love Red Hook. It does feel like you're kind of leaving New York City and going somewhere more coastal. Yeah. Well, I'm leaving New York on my next one. I'm still in Los Angeles. And I finally did the work and prepped and researched Dunsmore.

1:10:03Now, I've been hearing about Brian Dunsmore's restaurant in Glassville Park for a long time. And I finally I read a bunch of stuff about it. Like I was like, I got to I got to get into this vibe because I kept thinking it was a southern restaurant. And that's feels like it's not quite fair. And I think someone on the show can't remember who was like, it's actually not that. And and this is a restaurant I need to go to in Los Angeles. Brian Dunsmore is switching his menu all the time. And yes, there is a firmly planted red beans and rice on the menu. So I could say that would be maybe a Southern or that's a specific style of cuisine.

1:10:36But really, this menu reads like a chef who just loves cooking meat and loves creativity. And there's a mushroom crusted pork chop with smoked lard on there. There is a bluefish tuna. There's a bluefish toast. There's a bluefin tuna toast and a chicory salad with white cheddar dressing and apples. And it just seems like these are all like winter kind of winter produce. He's cooking with the seasons. And just the people in my life who I respect most in Los Angeles are like Dunsmore is my favorite restaurant, one of my top five. So on my list of places to go, it's not a new place, but it's Dunsmore in Los Angeles.

1:11:14I love the L.A. Rex from you because now when I go back home, I'll have more places to go to. I feel that's our country's greatest food city, just said it under my breath. You know what? I'm going to come back to New York and just say a final word. And I'm not going to go to this restaurant right away because I think it has some work to do. But it's a little restaurant called Babo. Have you ever been to Babo? No. So for obvious reasons, I have not gone to Babo for a very long time. Before I think I started writing about food, Tamar, when we were just dating, took me there. And it was incredible.

1:11:49first time I ever had I think Beef Cheeks was at Babbo and it's an iconic restaurant that has a very troubled past and what has happened is that Stephen Starr bought it Stephen Starr, restaurateur of Philadelphia and New York and around the country and so it has new ownership but also most importantly it has a new chef and his name is Mark Ladner. Mark Ladner was the chef who started Del Posto and won four stars in the New York Times It's the first Italian restaurant ever to get four stars. Brooks Headley was doing the pastry there. Del Posto, a real legend. Mark's been kind of doing his own thing for a while and hasn't had a restaurant in New York.

1:12:26Now he is the executive chef running the kitchen at Bobbo. This will be a very buzzy restaurant when it opens. There's going to be a lot of questions about what is Mark Ladner doing with this menu in this historical space. And I want to go, but I want to give it time. I don't want to go like right away. I feel like it needs to, you know, settle and figure out. Are they going to play the same music and have the same decor? Are they rebooting the whole interior? I mean, all these questions have not been answered in the little bit of reporting that's been about it. But it's on my list. Well, I guess speaking of restaurants that we want to give a little time before we visit, I do have one more to mention.

1:12:58Oh, cool. Great. I love it. Which is that my friend Ignacia Valdez is the new executive chef at Tokyo Record Bar. Oh, wow. I stopped by last night for a Casa Dragones, like, drinks event. And it was her very first night of service. And she had already started to change the menu. And I just had a couple bites of things that I would say are very much like classic Nachi style of food. She was helping Jeremiah and Fabian open Bar Contra most recently. And this was her first time as executive chef, which I'm so excited about. And she did an oyster with a Meyer lemon granita on top for that kind of like cool textural contrast.

1:13:31So smart, yeah. That kind of thing, I would say, is very much her style of food. And selfishly, as her friend, I'm just very excited to see her get her own restaurant. So that will be something I'm going to in a couple of weeks. and, you know, maybe we'll catch up about it on the show. Yeah, I would love to have her in the studio and hear that conversation. Tokyo Record Bar, that is. Tokyo Record Bar. It's a cool place, too. As the name suggests, there's good music there, too. Good music, good drinks, and a great chef in the kitchen. Well, I hope we can make it to some of these restaurants and maybe include it in three things or just on the show, maybe have some of the chefs on, and we'll definitely give an update once we end up going.

1:14:04Yeah, I love manifesting all of these future meals to come with you. That's great. Well, thanks for sharing, Eliza. You too.

1:14:14This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.