559: Climbing Momofuku Mountain with Paul Carmichael

35:53It's amazing when you hear these stories about the way. But for me, it wasn't even an issue, and I would not change it. Yeah. Because I learned so much. So you leave Aquavit. Where'd you go? Oh, I don't remember. Okay. I think actually. There's a Paul Carmichael universe that's blacked out. I think after Aquavit, I went, I want to say went to the tasting room. Interesting. Very cool. With Colin and Jason. And that was really cool. Yeah. Like, really cool. Also a lot of hours, but like. Downtown though. Yeah, but it felt different because Jason, our day would start early because we'd just be like shopping, right?

36:49The menu was like, we shopped for the menu every day. And shopping mean like green markets? Yeah, so we go to Union Square, we hit Chinatown, there are all these little shops we go to, and then we're all coming back with the bags, and then we prep for service, and we work service. so even and also i think the cool thing about working there was like we were closed sunday monday so we could do 16 7 at least you know i'm young or was young do 16 17 hours and you know like oh weekend's coming but we're you're and you're just like we had so much fun just like cooking there uh and then where did i go after that i think after that was wd50 yeah Yeah.

37:34And no, that is not true. Okay. Back it up. After that, I went to Asiat. Okay. Asiat. Yeah. I went to Asiat and I was there for like two years. And that was also a really good experience. I met my best friend there. Shout out to B-San, Brandon. And then after that, I think I went to WD-50. Tell me about the WD-50 era. It's obviously Wiley Dufresne running the show, but who was doing pastry at that time? And what are your roles? So I was a tour not. Okay. Pastry. I was there for a little while. So like, and I would love to say I was there in like the era. Yeah. You know? The era of like food and wine covers and stuff like that.

38:16But no, I think it was like the era before WD. Like we were the crew that got the Michelin star. Okay. The first one, right? So I started there when people really didn't like it. And I ended there when it was like super crazy and everybody wanted to go. So Sam Mason was the pastry chef. And then during my time there, Alex became the pastry chef. Alex Stupak, yeah. And it was a kitchen of like, I want to say killers. Yeah. You know, like Alex Stupak, Christina Tozzi, you know, Phil was there at that time. The sous chef Mikey was amazing. You know? Yeah. So a really good and strong team. Does it take your culinary IQ to a new level?

39:12Did you learn like a new style cooking that I would say probably informs your work today? I will tell you the thing that informs my work today is like Wiley demanded us to, I guess, participate in creativity and wiley was the first person my first chef to like actually like care about my opinion uh and that in of itself was incredibly freeing for me uh because i got to like exercise this creative muscle that i really never truly got to exercise like Like, a little bit at the tasting room, but it was, like, you know, I think that was incredibly simple. Like, I felt like we were just cooking there.

40:06Yeah. And that was cool and super fun. We made really tasty things. But, like, at WD, it was, like, this—I did so much failing at WD that it truly helped me to, like, A, enjoy failing, and B, know how to like not think of it as a dead end. Just think of it as the beginning of something else. It's just a continued creative process. It's like the laboratory idea of like trial and error. Yeah, you fail somewhere, but you succeed somewhere else. And where the failure comes, you can take something from there, do something else. uh yeah and that way of like uh i guess that deep dive into creativity was like incredibly helpful for me because it's something that i still value you know honestly also what i've realized it's it's a hard way to run a kitchen you know um because everyone that works does not care about about creativity does not care about like pushing themselves to the next step you know like some people just want to like do a job do a job and they're not reading like food arts and art culinary yeah and they're not geeking out of kitchen arts and letters yeah exactly yeah yeah uh so you know um i would say that that kitchen everyone wasn't like that but the majority of us was like that and it we were it was the one and only kitchen i've ever worked in where we started together we ended together and we did everything yeah you know yep um major credit to wiley du frame for fostering that and and you know history has really written that that story and and everyone knows wd50 was a special place not just because of cuisine but because of his his practices and Yeah, he is an incredible human.

42:08You know? Like, yeah. I could only sing his praises. I'd love to talk shit because in person I talk a lot of shit to him. You go up to the pizza spot and talk a little shit. Just like, wow, wow, wow. Stretch is good. Oh, stretch is amazing. Stretch is great. I mean, it's not just good. It's great. It's a great pizza. Yeah, I love his spot. But in all honesty, Wiley is the truth, man. He's a great human, great teacher, incredible mentor. I can only say his praises. And I kind of wish this wasn't going to be public. We'll edit it accordingly. Okay, I'm just going to take a guess. Just knowing the history of WD-50 and knowing the history of Momofuku and knowing how the transition of talent flowed.

42:59I'm going to guess that you went to Momo next. No, I actually went to Puerto Rico next. Okay, but there is like that lineage from WD-50, obviously. But you went to Puerto Rico, cool. The funny thing is, I think without WD-50, I probably would never have worked at Momo. That's the truth. I put a few dishes on at WD-50, and Dave ate at WD-50 a bunch. And one of his favorite things he ate there was a water bite dishes. and he was like, oh, who's blah, blah, blah. What's the dish? I actually, I think it was like this vegan thing I put on with like, which is weird for Dave to be eating, yes. But Wiley told Dave it was like one of my dishes.

43:45And after that, Wiley was like, oh, I mean, Dave was like, oh, would you want to be a part of the team? And I was like, oh, I'm going to move to Puerto Rico. I'm not coming back. Wow. Plot twist, Paul. Yeah. That's amazing. You were done with New York. Yeah, I was done. I was like out. I didn't think it was actually coming back here. I went to PR with the intention of trying my hand at a business. But when I got there, the market fell out. It was like the worst timing. So you were opening a restaurant? I wasn't. I went there with the intention to. Oh, I see. And it just did not happen because it was like financial crisis in the U.S.

44:28And if there's financial crisis here, Puerto Rico is not fare well. And it was a tough time. It was a tough three years there. Wow, three years. What are you doing there? I worked. I ran this little restaurant called Perla. That was a fun time. Are you in San Juan? I was in San Juan. I was in Condado. Love, love, love, love Puerto Rico. A lot of my family is from Puerto Rico. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My kid's porter, he could. Oh, wow. You know? Amazing. Dave called me. You ready to come back? And I was like, yes. Because Tin and him were opening Ma Pesh. And I came back to be Tin's sous chef. And I did that for about, like, what, nine, ten months?

45:20This is Tin Ho you're speaking up. Yeah, Tin Ho. The Tin Ho. This is a concept that Ma Pesh was opened as, as you referred to earlier. and this is this big opening. Big opening. Big splashy opening, Momo in Midtown, big weird space. Like, you're there. Yeah, day one. As Tin's sous chef. Yeah. And then when Tin decided to leave, both him and Dave asked me to be the chef, and I was just like, no. Right away. I was like, absolutely not. Why? Why was that your response? Because that space was a disaster. I was just like, oh, my God. A lot of stairs. A lot of stairs. Yeah. You only know it's there if you know.

46:02I mean, the visual trick with the, I would say, with the tarps. Yeah. I'm just taking people back. I mean, there were like these tarps. Peach tarps. These tarps that, because like the space, let's just paint the picture. It's like, what is it? The ceiling is like 35 feet. Yeah, real high ceiling. 35 feet ceiling. But you're still underground. But you're no windows. Yeah. underground a bar maybe on a different level bar on a different level then a mezzanine then a mezzanine and then a dining room all activated by the way all active and you got milk bar milk bar in the lobby plus room service plus breakfast oh yeah plus lunch it's in a hotel P.S.

46:41it's in a hotel and it's this big brand I mean this is like Momo at the top of its powers in New York huge profile and it's got this funky space and I was like oh my god this is a I was like I don't know if I could do this. That's why it's a special restaurant. Especially when you took over, when the food was really, especially lunch, I mean, just pop it. It made it work, man. I never thought that, when it was there, I just thought it was barely surviving. But yeah, I had an incredible crew there. Like, incredible. And they're running some really cool spots here in the city, which I'm incredibly proud of.

47:18Let's get into Bar Cabababa because I love hearing your history and thank you for taking us through it's remarkable and and i really was a joy to hear you talk about your history um and i just want to talk a little bit about the bar side of it because that's what i've experienced yeah and by the time this runs we're recording this to time with the opening or at least opening announcement of kabawa so we'll get into some details yeah there but like i would say the the cuisine i mean i i was all over the the menu when i visited and you know this the solomon gundy dip or spread you'd call it. Yeah, dip, spread.

47:55Delicious. Goop. You know, my Jewish background makes me think of whitefish salad but Salmon Gundy, just for our audience, is a unique product that you've channeled into this spread, this goop. Tell us a little bit about it. Yeah, so I mean, like traditionally at its core it's a Jamaican like a, like dip that you made from smoked mackerel and allspice habanero. And I just wanted to do something that honored that. And that, once again, if a Jamaican came in and had it, they would have called BS, you know. So while it's not uber traditional, because we're using mullet roll, and then I added the smoke with smoked red herring, Beautiful.

48:53And, yeah, we serve it with some little cute cassava crisp and dried okra. And it's pretty delish, you know. I wanted to make it, like, creme brulee. So, like, that's why the texture is, I guess, like, creamy. And then it's bruleed on top. But this is, like, the way of thinking in, like, the WD way, right? So it's like you try to exercise – you try the exercises over and over again to see what works and what doesn't work. And I knew putting – just basically from doing all these exercises or creative exercises, like burning sugar on top, I was like, I know that's going to work. Even though it's weird.

49:45I think like sugar or fish, probably weird. But you break through with the cassava chips or the dehydrated okra, which I loved. It was these little bites of just pure okra. You don't really think about sugar. You think about the breaking. The breaking and the experience of like getting to the dip and that bit of bitterness from like the burnt sugar, like really like, I guess, accentuates like the smokiness and the spice level of the Gundy. how do you how do you do the cocoa bread man i'm like i mean how how do you make a bread course feel like a star and i feel like just wrapping it around one of the other the doubles you know yeah is like the way to do it and it's just such a delicious bite that was that was a lot of trial and error because one i want to do it with coconut because i'm like what is this thing called cocoa bread that's half cocoa okay yeah uh so there was a lot the hardest bit was the shape like getting the shape right um but the bread we we had already had like a uh like there's already been work done like recipe in that bit but like getting the shape and the the bake was like the yeah the bit that It took a lot of trial and error.

51:13And now we pretty much got it dialed in. And the shape's so simple. We overthought it so much. It's like make a ball, roll it out, flip it, like close it. Essentially, we just made a clam and pushed it together so that it could be pulled apart. And that's the moment you know when you pull it apart and you've got that rush of hot air coming out of it. Yeah, and it's like it was also like we also thought too much about baking, you know, and did all these things. And it just turns out we just baked it at 350 degrees for 25 minutes. 25, put the timer on, you're done. And we tried steam it up. We tried steam bake.

52:00It was all this stuff. And it was just like, ah, 350. That's it. You split the menu between fried and baked patties, and I'd love to get a sense of you say the menu travels the Caribbean, and I tried several of the baked and fried. Tell us a little bit about some of these pies, these patties that represent. So they're split into baked and fried for one, baked is the traditional way to go. fried is uh i guess that that came up at sayo bowl because i always wanted to do a patty indie tasting but i didn't want to mess around with like baking because i also wanted things at sayo to be like very alamonute yeah you drop and you fry so like you like when you were at sale where we were moving because everything was cooked for you.

53:05And I didn't want a course where it was just like, we're going to bake off these 50 patties and then warm them up for you. I wanted people to see that, like, hey, this is actually happening for you in this moment. So that's where we came up with this idea for, as my buddy would say, the liquid oven. Yeah. That's a great, that'd be a great cookbook title. Yeah, liquid oven. Yeah, the liquid oven. Every day in the fryer. Let's do a deep fry book, yeah. So I split them in Bar Cabal's iteration. And the fillings for the baked ones are more traditional fillings. And not traditional from a point of view that you could find them in Haiti or Jamaica, but traditional from traditional things found in the Caribbean.

53:56So like Jiragot from Trinidad. There's Creole chicken from Puerto Rico. There's curry crab that, you know, you can find a lot of places in the Caribbean. And then there's like an eggplant, which like that eggplant really references. My aunt used to do this eggplant casserole that I really love. And that really is like from her. The fried ones are more, I guess, I want to say more, not creative, I don't want to use the word creative, but like things you won't necessarily see. Yeah, you're putting on the capital C chef hat. Yeah. A little bit. So it's like that's where you got like the beef with conch and bone marrow, the pepper pot duck and foie, kale and oats.

54:48You know, that's more that line. because I also wanted to like showcase other flavors like throughout the region. And I didn't necessarily want to be pigeonholed being like, oh, it's patties, oh, it's Jamaican, you know? Yeah. Like you will never see any of that at a Jamaican patty shop. And I think that's the messaging that is evolving with this food. Because I think in New York and you're really catering to downtown New York diners, you think of a patty, you think of Jamaica. Yeah. And that's a challenge for you to kind of break through and say this is like it could be a tasting and you can do it probably a patty tasting.

55:28Oh, like the other day I asked one of my cooks, I was like, what do you want to do for a special? Because we do some specials. Oh, cool. And she was like, chop cheese. And so did chop cheese and put it in a patty. Beautiful. I mean, is there like a fast casual patty concept for you? Because I think just the idea you're thinking about how patties can be done in many ways, the oats and kale comes to mind. Beautiful dish. Love that. Sleeper. That's a sleeper on the menu. I loved it. This, you know, really delicious. Would you do it? Would you do like a patty concept? I know like Momo plays in this sandbox a little bit.

56:04You got the fuku in those basketball stadiums. Man, I, you know, we'll see. We'll see. Yeah, yeah. We'll see if the way we do it could be scalable because it's so much work. I know it is. And I peeked into the kitchen and just saw the work that goes into your, the patties in general, yeah. Fully underestimated how much. You did? I was just like, yeah, we'll get one prep cook and we fine. You know, they'll knock it out. Wrong. Wrong. Labor cost goes up. P &L looks a little different. Yep. It was so wrong. Let's talk about Kabawa proper, the prefix menu that you're opening soon. What can you tell us about some of the dishes that we're going to find in there?

56:47How does this evolve? I'm really curious because we're recording this before anything really is out. I'm going right to the source here. I'm going to be very honest. I'm not fully there yet. Sure. I know the structure. I kind of know what desserts we're going to do for sure and I'm still going through the main items but I want to have some sort of curry on there I'm pretty sure I'm going to do some sort of sausage on there great content it's actually really really important because this is how it works, listeners. This is how it works. You know, but structurally, the menu will be like six to seven things in each section.

57:43Yeah. And pick one? Pick one from each section. Three sections, pick one. Pick one. I want to do like a take on pepper shrimp, which I'm still working on. Where's your shrimp coming from? Shrimp's coming from Long Island. Beautiful. Yeah. what else would i say i want to do some salt fish fritters do the patties make up no patties do not patties you gotta be at the bar patties so like essentially there these are two separate concepts and you know i'd love people to think of them even if we share an address but think of them if the patty place was in you know flatbush yeah and Kabawa was on an extra place.

58:32Like they're coming from a very common place, but they're very two different things. The restaurants like want it to be fun and inviting and warm. Yeah. But you get the restaurant experience. What's the price point we're looking at? We're looking at$150-ish per person. and that's going to include some surprises. Yeah, of course. This is a three-course prefix, but in a tasting menu. Venue. Venue. In a tasting menu venue. Venue. But, you know, this is a Momo, this is the Momo style, which is a lot of surprises, a lot of fun stuff happening, a lot of improvisational moments. Yeah, and I hope so. I hope that we could get to the point where there's a lot of improv because that's where I have the most fun This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames.

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1:02:35I'm ready. Okay, this is going to be fun. The best fruit. Best fruit. Oh, God. You're going to make me pick one. Yeah, I am. If it's one I got to eat for the rest of my life, it would be probably mangoes. Yeah. Yeah. Love mangoes. You love mangoes. I also love pineapple, but I love mangoes. Mangoes. The worst vegetable. Oh, this is going to get a lot of hate, but I'd probably say artichoke. Yeah. Like, the juice ain't worth the squeeze for me. Too much work to get. Although, I did have a really good artichoke salad a couple weeks ago. Yeah. Where was that at? This little Italian restaurant in the East Village.

1:03:12Can't remember any name. I could walk there, though. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Like right before service or after service. It was really nice. I was just like, huh, that's a lot of work, and I appreciate this work. I love that. What's your typical breakfast? I don't really eat breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. So did you do coffee? Do you do anything? I don't drink coffee either. I know I'm so weird. Nah. But I'll get up, I'll drink water, and then I'll usually just go to work. Nothing? Nothing. Yeah, nothing. Okay. It works for you. If I had to pick a breakfast food, I do love eggs. I love eggs. Yeah. And I think New York City bodegas have real good bacon, egg, and cheeses.

1:03:54You know it. I love them. You know it. And you got your favorite ones and you got to support. Yep. You definitely have your favorite ones. There's some that are full trash. Oh, yeah. And then there are others. You're just like, this is the spot. And I hope my guy's working. How do you square the bread, though? Because I feel like sometimes maybe that's just the bad ones. For me, I'm a bacon, egg, and cheese on a roll, salt, pepper, meal, ketchup guy. Yeah. Like that's my move. You always have to call salt and pepper, though. Oh, you always have to call. The novices don't do that. If you don't call salt and pepper, you get nothing.

1:04:27You get nothing. Nothing. And if you don't call sauce, you also get nothing. You get nothing. Yeah, egg and cheese on a roll without salt and pepper, you're getting nothing. That's the pro tip. This is a good one because you have such a history with New York. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? From New York? It could be anywhere. I'm sorry. It could be anywhere in the world. This is purely selfish because I never got the chance to go at that time. I was incredibly poor, you know, making 300, 400 bucks a week. Does it really get you to Spain? Yeah. Oh, I see you're going with this one.

1:05:05I would have loved to go to LBE. Because especially with my affiliation with WD50,

1:05:17that was a very critical moment in culinary history. And that was one place I would have loved to experience, especially at that time. Right now, I'm not so sure. But like if I could go back in time and go there, I would have. Yeah, Adria just pioneering the style of service. And of course, you know, his cuisine influenced Wiley and everyone else. And Grant and, you know, everybody. Yeah, yeah. It's not said enough. It was so critical. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Probably McDonald's. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love a McChicken with ranch dressing. Yes. I love some nuggies. Yeah.

1:06:06Mix a sweet and sour and barbecue. Oh, you go half and half. I go half and half. That's a genius move. I always go sour, only sour, but I'm thinking, yeah, double, and it's easy. Yeah, probably good old Macca's. Yeah. It's a great brand. But I also love Popeye's. I'm not going to lie. Yeah. The biscuit is God tier for me. I love that biscuit. Popeye slaps. Yeah, it's good. Few more. Favorite city outside America to visit for food? Ooh, good one. Da, da, da, da, da.

1:06:43Maybe Bangkok. Amazing. Yeah. Bangkok's fun. Yeah. Really good food. Never had a bad meal in Bangkok. Right. I've had bad meals in a lot of cities. Even cities, people are like, you have to go. What is that one? uh yeah i mean you've been so positive but i know you've been holding it back uh so like look for instance everybody's like for tokyo everyone's like oh my god food's so amazing i'm like the food in tokyo is amazing when you know where to go i know uh i tokyo i don't find is a place you just walk in anywhere and you you're like just floored um but when you know it's incredible yeah i think tokyo for drinks though yeah you could walk in most places and have a good cocktail experience it's very true yeah and just like a style of service that is just an incredible hospitality my first trip to asia was to tokyo for just solely for cocktails because like i i'm a big i'm a big drinks guy like i love cocktails i love wine i guess this is why bar kebab has been in my head for so long.

1:07:57And the daiquiris are really, really, really cool. They're very special there, I think. Yeah. But, yeah. I'd say Bangkok, bang for buck, is like, will be my pick. Okay. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Ooh! Damn, favorite sandwich. This one I'm going to have to call a few, because... I'll give you that. I'm a moody eater, but I love a good BLT. I love a Reuben, like a strong Reuben. Well, Paul, I wish you all the best with Kabawa. I'm such a fan of Momofuku. Do not shy away from my love for what you're doing at all your restaurants and the teams there. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

1:08:43Oh, thank you. Thanks for having me. This was fun.

1:08:56Roger Kamholtz, this is Taze. Thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Thanks for making your way up to Midtown today. It's always, I think, a truck even for people that live in New York. All good. To start off, I'm wondering if you could just tell me a little bit about what draws you professionally and personally to the world of drinks. Oh, well, I've been around cocktails for a very long time. You know, my father was kind of like cocktail aficionado, I would say, and was always making drinks for like family and friends. You know, he was like a very big host. And I feel like even long before, you know, what I would sort of call like the renaissance of cocktails over the last, whatever, 20 years or so, you know, he was into it and he was like very knowledgeable and it always seemed very kind of natural and expected to have that kind of knowledge.

1:09:51So it was more just drafting off of him and something that we shared together as I was growing up. I remember he took a trip to Brazil, like when I was probably like in my teens maybe, and came back and he was like making caipirinhas for like his like, you know, friends and family. And I just, I don't know, like it was like something that only sort of arrived, I would say, in America much, much later on. So he was sort of ahead of his time in that way. And I think I definitely gravitated toward studying cocktails and making them based on his sort of guidance in that way. Yeah, I love hearing about the cappuccino, because also that's just juicing so many limes.

1:10:36That's a real love language for somebody. Are there any other drinks that you think of growing up as being like your dad's signature drinks or drinks that you were just kind of consciously aware of? Yes. I think that the gin and tonic is another one that was always sort of like around, you know, classic drink, very kind of easy to make, very homey and comforting, I think. Another, you know, he was, he would probably say that he taught many of the bartenders of New York how to make a boulevard year, which is like, was his drink for many, many years. And he would always sort of bring it up and hold court at bars and sort of instruct bartenders who probably knew how to make it to begin with about how to make it just because he loved to sort of share his knowledge and kind of enthusiasm for those sorts of things.

1:11:29I think it's interesting to think about growing up around cocktails because some parents are very closed off to their kids trying things or drinking alcohol. And it seems like maybe you got to sip on something when your dad was making it a bit. But I'm curious when you kind of came into your own and you were in your own adult life of drinking, like how did you kind of shape your own knowledge and your own preferences? Yeah. So it probably, I mean, I would say that as a, as a writer and someone who really wanted to kind of study it and immerse myself in the cocktail kind of community that really happened uh when i was living in chicago um i moved there originally from new york i moved to chicago for school and then stayed there for many years thereafter and at that time the cocktail scene in the city was really kind of blossoming it was like all these bars that are now kind of like benchmarks of the whole kind of cocktail boom are are there and they were opening at that time.

1:12:31So, you know, I feel like it was there that I learned so much more about spirits. I was being introduced to things I had never heard of through these drinks that were being served at these places where, you know, the kind of playbook was being written, like, for the first time, or at least, like, newly again. And I think that was really formative for me. So, um, you know, places like the Violet Hour, which opened in 2007, you know, I was living there in Chicago at the time. And that was like such a revelatory place to go. Cause it was so different, so unique, uh, you know, the, the drinks and the, uh, environment and everything.

1:13:11Um, it really kind of transported you to somewhere else. And I really geeked out on that and, um, you know, experiences like that just like got me excited about learning more. And there were a lot of books being published at that time. David Wondrich's very famous book called Imbibe came out, I believe in 2004, 2005, getting a copy of that, reading about the history of cocktails and famous bartenders from, you know, before prohibition who were, you know, sort of like the rock stars of their time were quite famous in their own right for their, you know, for their hospitality, for their showmanship, all that stuff.

1:13:53So, you know, it's kind of like this new discipline to learn with all this really interesting history. So it appealed to me in so many ways. I mean, I was in Chicago studying journalism and sort of was able to plug into some of the local publications and start writing about drinks without, you know, they're feeling like, you know, a lot of barriers to entry. I mean, it wasn't necessarily getting paid much, but I just loved it and wanted to do it. And, you know, that was sort of my way in and my sort of, you know, sort of public education and in a more kind of formal way. Whereas, you know, growing up, it was just something that was sort of around that would seem interesting and a way to, you know, again, like connect with my father or with him and his friends and feel a little bit more kind of grown up than I really was.

1:14:47I love hearing about this background. I think something that I find so interesting about writing about drinks and cocktails is there is so much history and these ingredients coming into fashion or being available in the U.S. at all. And it kind of is this microcosm of a larger cultural moment. And we're here to talk about your book also, which is so cool because it's a two-ingredient cocktail book poured together. Where did that idea come from? So the idea for the book actually came from Clarkson Potter. So the publishing company that is publishing the book, they had this kind of general idea for a book that would feature cocktail recipes that would just require two ingredients to make.

1:15:29They didn't really have much more, you know, kind of fleshed out in terms of the concept. than that, but they were looking for a writer to, you know, kind of run with it. And we ended up getting connected. And, you know, to their credit, they sort of let me to, you know, sort of shape the idea in ways that felt sort of natural and true to my own experience, which was great. So, you know, I kind of approached it with, you know, sort of at first, like wondering, is there a whole book to this? Because, you know, as someone who has studied cocktails, so cocktails don't sort of typically have two ingredients.

1:16:14You usually have more than that. Right. I think of like rum and Coke, gin and tonic. Yes. I think that's the extent of two ingredient cocktails that I can name. So at first I was sort of thinking about like, you know, where can I take this? Like, are there, is there a whole book's worth of drinks, you know, that kind of fit this profile and started to explore it. And, you know, soon enough went from, you know, kind of wondering what I could put together. And then it became more like, well, there's a lot out there, more than I expected to find. And then it was about like, okay, what should I include?

1:16:49How can I sort of shape all of these recipes and kind of curate them and organize them in a way that sort of is true to the intent of the concept, right? So in that way, it was about, well, two ingredient cocktails, they're going to be, you know, sort of easier to make. They're a little more accessible because they don't require a whole lot of ingredients, things like that. So that became kind of an organizing principle of the book is to use that way in as sort of an educational premise. So, you know, the book sort of starts with cocktails that are much lighter in body, kind of, you know, moves through a progression leading to cocktails that are maybe a little bit more involved to prepare.

1:17:40but my hope is that folks who want to get into cocktails but don't know where to start or want kind of easier drinking drinks or just want to kind of go easy on themselves in terms of what they need to buy what they need to have around it's meant to be a book that hopefully you can kind of pick up and open the page, open to a page and sort of run with whatever you find and there's it was very deliberate in kind of selecting a sort of wide variety of drinks. So, you know, to your point, there are things that are more familiar, like a dark and stormy, right, which is rum and ginger beer, you know, something that people might recognize, but then other drinks that are maybe utilizing spirits or ingredients that aren't kind of what I would think of as like in the mainstream.

1:18:35For me, one of my favorite spirits that I don't think gets enough love is absinthe. So there's quite a few absinthe cocktails and that's kind of my implicit nudge for everyone to, you know, hopefully get a little bit closer to that spirit because I think it's really beautiful and interesting and complex and, you know, probably has a lot of mystique and maybe some negative associations around it that really it doesn't deserve because it's a quite lovely and elegant spirit to drink. I love hearing about absinthe as a liquor spirit that you're championing in this book. I'm curious in the development process, if there are any other ingredients you stumbled across that you thought, wow, this really lends itself to a two ingredient cocktail.

1:19:19It's doing a lot from a flavor perspective. Yeah, it's a great question. Another category of ingredient that I hadn't really explored a whole lot myself before that I really got into was sherry. So sherry is a Spanish wine. There's a whole kind of universe within that word of varieties. Sherry can be kind of very dry. It can be very rich and kind of raisiny and concentrated. And because of that, because of that variety and because every sherry has so many different kind of elements to it and the flavor profile is very complex, I find that an ingredient like that is a great choice for a two ingredient cocktail because, you know, you're not working with a lot.

1:20:07So you need everything in that drink to really kind of punch above its weight and and and really shine and bring a lot to the table. And sherry was one that I found in some of the older cocktail literature that I was researching, that that's an ingredient that I think goes back a long way and has been used in cocktails since the dawn of cocktails. So there's quite a few drink recipes in the book featuring sherry, one of which is called the Adonis, which now when I make it for friends, they're like, oh, this is so lovely. It's sherry and sweet vermouth. So it's a drink that, you know, if you saw it and you kind of sipped it, you'd think that you're having kind of like a Manhattan.

1:20:58Like it's very kind of dark and brooding, but it's much lighter in terms of like the alcohol content. So it's a drink that you can kind of have a few of and not be too worried about the effects of that. But at the same time, it's an up drink. So it's stirred. You know, you could serve it sort of martini style. and it sort of has a lot of presence, but isn't a very like weighty kind of brooding drink the way like a Manhattan might be. I'm curious how you defined ingredients for this book. I think if someone is cooking online and you see a recipe that says like three ingredient pasta, things like olive oil or salt don't necessarily count as those ingredients a lot of the time.

1:21:44So did you manage to sneak in like a garnish or a squeeze of lime or how did you kind of approach that framework? Yes. So in my mind, and I say this in the book, that the two ingredients should be like two co-stars, right? Like you have, they're bringing the flavor to the party, right? So something like ice, water, you know, these are essentials in a cocktail, but they're not really contributing any flavor. They certainly are affecting the temperature, the texture of a drink, et cetera. But, you know, I never thought that, you know, water should be listed as an ingredient because, you know, it's sort of in every drink in some way and would sort of, you know, limit how many drinks we could include in the book if water was an ingredient.

1:22:38So things like ice, water, garnishes, as you said. So garnishes, I kind of had sort of philosophical sort of, I don't know, angst about how to sort of treat that. In my mind, you know, a garnish can be there, maybe not. It's sort of optional in a lot of cases. It adds to the drink in terms of like the visual and, you know, maybe it adds some kind of little pop of flavor. So I decided not to count garnishes as an ingredient so that, again, it wouldn't limit what we could do in terms of two ingredient cocktails. Yeah, it's interesting to think about how much the garnish is required. Like if you were given a martini without an olive in it, would it still be a martini?

1:23:23It's an interesting question. I mean, I have had good martinis that don't have any garnish. I think that adding garnish certainly enhances them. It brings them to sort of another level. So, you know, martini is in the book. You know, I think some of the best martinis that I've had will use like a little lemon twist, you know, not olive. Those are some things that, you know, kind of take the drink in different directions. So, you know, there's sort of like the core requirements, you know, of a martini. You've got your, in my mind, gin and dry vermouth. and then you can kind of like take it in different directions and customize it and tailor it for your taste with the garnish.

1:24:06But again, like the core of the drink is those two things together. I wonder if you could recommend a two ingredient cocktail for me. I really like like agave based spirits like tequila or mezcal or something like that. OK, well, are you a beer drinker by any chance? Yeah, I like beer. OK, well, there's a drink in the book. it's called the Smoky Paloma Radler so this drink is like a citrus citrus ale mixed with mezcal so a Radler is a beer cocktail usually combining beer with some kind of like citrus ingredient so classic combinations would be like some kind of ale with like lemonade right or grapefruit juice Great drinks, really juicy, really refreshing, especially in summertime.

1:25:01So in the book, I have a drink that sort of like plays off of that kind of a little boozier with the addition of the mezcal. And then for that citrus element, you know, there's plenty of citrus ales out there that almost taste like a Paloma in and of themselves. So this is kind of just like a little kind of boozy twist on, you know, on a Paloma using beer as the as the base. So you might like that. Oh, that sounds great. I feel like that's a perfect summer entertaining option also. I totally agree. I think that beer cocktails, wine cocktails often get kind of left out of the conversation when it comes to cocktails.

1:25:41And in the book, I, again, very deliberately try to include those kinds of drinks because I think that, again, they're easy to make. You're always going to have those ingredients sort of around. And I think there should be no rules stopping you from adding a little something to your wine or to your beer. I think we often treat those ingredients as, you know, they're perfect the way they are or they're not meant to be kind of adulterated with other stuff. But why not break some rules? Yeah, I have a friend who delights in ordering white wine with ice at bars here in New York. Yeah, right. Exactly.

1:26:17Mostly for the expression of whoever's serving it to her. But I really appreciate that she knows what she wants and she's not afraid to ask for it. I applaud that. Because sometimes you want your wine to be ice cold and it's, you know. It's the way to do it. There you go. So beyond the limitations of two ingredient cocktails, I'm curious what you find exciting in the cocktail scene these days, either in New York or outside of the city. I will say that as I've gotten older and I've been kind of doing this for a while, I don't go out nearly as much as I used to. That's fair. That's fair. You put in the time.

1:26:51Yes. So I probably am not as plugged in as I wish I was anymore. But I think that what's always amazing to me and something that has kept me interested in this pursuit all these years is that it's just so endless. Like the frontier always has room to expand and bartenders are in my, you know, experience kind of talking to them, you know, interviewing them, kind of peppering them with questions like nerding out, whatever. Uh, they're these amazingly creative people there. They, uh, are always trying new things and always creating these, um, new combinations of, of flavors and textures. And, uh, I think that is what I'm always amazed by and always like keeps me interested is that, um, you know, tomorrow there'll be something new.

1:27:52You know, I do a lot of writing for Punch, which is a cocktail publication online. And I don't know if it was intentional or unintentional, but I've kind of been on this Campari beat for a little while, writing about what bartenders are doing with Campari, which is this red, bitter Italian liqueur. You know, there are bartenders putting it into amaretto sours, which I did never, I would never even think to do that. And bartenders who are using it in their margaritas. So things like that, just like combining things and trying things out and seeing what works is one of the beauties of, I think, cocktails is that, and the combinations are endless.

1:28:38So I'm always excited for what I'm seeing out there in terms of new ingredients, old ingredients being used in new ways, things like that. Yeah, I'm curious. How do you feel about the drink of the summer discourse? I feel like that's a trap we find ourselves in in media, that every summer there's an article saying that the Dirty Shirley or the Aperol Spritz is going to be the drink of the summer. How do you feel about that? I think that people should drink what they want rather than drink what they think they should be having. that being said you know I think that there's you know kind of this like hive mind that exists in cocktails where people want to try that thing that is kind of new interesting and sort of you know kind of gravitate toward these things that are popping up I mean the espresso martini I always think about that like it's a great drink it actually like coming back to it and sort of When that was sort of rising in popularity again, I was like, oh, I don't know about that.

1:29:44But then – Like it's still a very popular drink. Yeah, exactly. It deserved to be revisited and reimagined. And I think drinks of summer, right, it feels like this thing that everyone gets to participate in and feel like they're part of this bigger kind of moment and bigger cultural shift. So I like it in that regard. But I don't know. As long as everyone is sort of enjoying the drink for what it is rather than the hype that is surrounding it. Yeah, it's not an edict that you must order this drink when you go to the bar. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I wonder if the Campari trend that you're talking about that you're seeing now is somehow a byproduct of the fact that the American drinking public got more comfortable drinking Aperol with the Aperol Spritz a couple of years ago.

1:30:39And now these other versions of these aperitif that maybe aren't quite as sweet. Maybe there's more of people who know that that's something they want to try or there's more of a market for that because of it. Yeah. I mean, I would definitely say that there is sort of a leading edge of kind of like taste in terms of what people like have tried and like and bitter is kind of like a perfect example of that. But like I feel like people who are getting into cocktails may eventually initially find cocktails that sort of lean, bitter, a little off-putting. But then it takes time. It sort of takes, you know, acquiring that taste for it.

1:31:20And then you find, oh, wow, this is actually like really interesting. It's really complex. It's like hitting a different part of my palate and brain, et cetera. And I think that, you know, like that's such a – common refrain in cocktails where something sort of starts out being a bit sort of niche and then it kind of grows into something much more mainstream. Yeah. What you're saying about bitter reminds me of an experience that I had ordering a Negroni for the first time when I was like studying in the UK. So I wasn't legal to drink in the US. So it was like one of the first experiences I had ordering like a classic cocktail at a bar and my uncle drinks Negronis.

1:32:04I hope he listens to this. I ordered it because I was like, oh, this is a grownup drink to order. And I tried it and, you know, it probably wasn't very good considering the like student bar that I was at, but it just was terrible. And I ditched it immediately. And now later on, Mezcal Negroni is one of my go-to drinks to order at a bar. And I remember the first time that I tried a Negroni again and I actually liked it. And my first thought was, oh, I'm getting old. But it's nice to know that you have the capacity, our palates have the capacity to grow and change based on what you're exposed to.

1:32:35I think that's so fascinating, right? You try something once. I mean, coffee is another example. Who as a child likes to drink coffee? But by the time you get to be much older, you sort of find something in it that appeals to you. And if you met your younger self, You'd be like, oh my gosh, you drink coffee now? That's crazy. I work at job now and I have to wake up. So I'm drinking coffee. Well, yes, there's that aspect too. Okay. So to close today, I want to play a rapid fire taste check game with you. So I'll give you categories and you're going to have to play favorites and tell me the first thing that comes to mind.

1:33:11Okay. Okay. Your favorite cocktail book that's not your own. oof um there is a book series that came out back in like 2009 2011 called the uh initially it was called rogue cocktails they changed the name to beta cocktails uh was very formative for me back then um a lot of very challenging you know kind of kind of classic cocktails in that book and taught me a lot about things like Chinar, which we talked about before, and Mezcal. It's very ahead of its time in terms of its sort of outlook on how cocktails could be made and broke a lot of rules, which I appreciated. There's another book called Bitters by Brad Thomas Parsons, and that book also was like a go-to for a very long time for me.

1:34:07I just, again, crack it open, make a drink out of that book. Got me more and more comfortable and accustomed to having bitter cocktails, which has always been, you know, since then, I think a mainstay of my sort of drink diet. Toby Maloney's book, Bartender's Manifesto, is another one. A little bit more kind of technical, but definitely for someone who wants to sort of understand the mechanics of cocktails, how they come together. How do you create a balanced cocktail that sort of has all of the kind of elements working together in tandem? It's a great book to read. Okay, I'm cutting you off at three, but they're all great examples.

1:34:50It was supposed to be one. Yeah, but I like all three. We'll keep them. Okay. What's your favorite cookbook right now? We just got a couple of cookbooks recently. One is called Justine Cooks. It's great. There's a lot of great ideas in there. So I do a lot of the cooking at home. So that's one that I'm kind of flipping through right now. It's probably been out for a while. The Tartine Bread Cookbook is another. Are you baking bread at home? Yes. This is like I'm very late to the party, but I am. The party is always going. Is it? OK, good. Yes, I'm kind of dabbling in in bread and pizza dough. So right now I'm trying to learn how to make baguettes, which is very kind of challenging.

1:35:38It's sort of the next the next summit I'm trying to I'm trying to reach. Very cool. OK, your two ingredient Desert Island cocktail. oof desert island like the desert island is magically stocked with these two ingredients uh hmm well so going back to my love for absinthe i would love to always have access to a a cocktail that's in the book that i called the absinthe coconut frappe here in new york there's a wonderful bar called maison premier which um they uh one of the few places where you can really kind of geek out on on absinthe they sort of serve it in the traditional way they also use it in a lot of cocktails they serve this really amazing drink called the absinthe colada there just sort of like under the radar one of the best drinks in the city in my opinion so the absinthe coconut frappe is a kind of riff on that drink that is absinthe mixed with like a sweetened kind of coconut cream so it has a little bit of like a beachy vibe which i think would be great on a desert island and would, you know, give me access to one of my favorite spirits.

1:36:51So that's probably what I would choose. And it's served over like crushed ice. So it's like very chilled, bracing, you know, very, very satisfying in that way. I'll have to go get the original one at Maison Premier. I love that bar. Yes, it's excellent. Okay. Your least favorite cocktail ingredient? Probably Aquavit. Have you had this before? It's like kind of like Scandinavian. Yeah. It's often made with like caraway, I believe is like the main ingredient. Never really was able to kind of get into that. Yeah. Okay. A cocktail that you think should be more popular or have like mainstream appeal.

1:37:31Hmm. I don't know. That's a good question. I don't. I feel like you're going to say something with absinthe. Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of beautiful kind of more European style aperitifs that I think, you know, that include absinthe or pastis, which is another anise-based liqueur that comes from France. You know, there's a drink in the book called the Maresque, which uses pastis and orgeat, which is a like almond syrup. And I think that that drink should be more popular outside of, you know, Marseille, which is where it's probably most famous. Okay. Your favorite cocktail city in the world?

1:38:22Probably Chicago. I think that that city is just a wonderful – the cocktail community there is truly that. I mean, I think the bartenders and professionals that work in hospitality there are second to none. And, you know, were so welcoming to me as a guest journalist, what have you, as I was coming up. And I think it's still that way today. So I love having cocktails in Chicago. Nice. Me too. Your favorite cocktail bar in the world? Well, sticking on the tack of Chicago, I'd probably say Violet Hour, which I mentioned before. It's very near and dear to my heart. And I think I'd always, you know, be happy if I was there having a drink.

1:39:15Okay. And finally, one of your favorite places for cocktails in New York? Let's see. I would say Bar Goto, which is kind of a Japanese cocktail bar. They have two locations. the one in Brooklyn Bar Goto Niban is really great it's a beautiful space it's usually pretty quiet so you can kind of go there with a friend and grab a seat at the bar they have a beautiful martini the sakura martini which is made with sake it's an exquisite drink like just just thinking about it right now I want to have one the food is really good at Bar Goto also they do like miso wings and the kombu celery. I actually don't go to the Brooklyn location that often, and the Manhattan one is always so busy.

1:40:04So this is a good reminder. Yes. Go like, there's a train, a subway stop right outside. You pop out, you go right in. If you go on the early side, it's like, you know, pretty quiet. And it's just, yes, the food and the drinks, it just all comes together so nicely there. Well, Roger, this has been so much fun. Thank you for coming on the show. I can't wait to go make some two-agredient cocktails. Thank you so much.

1:40:56Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.