568: Food Writers Talking About Food Writing with Eric Kim & Matt Rodbard

28:11I enjoy all the jokes. I enjoy the jokes. This one was super well played. A couple people wrote me and said, oh my God, can you imagine? I actually did not respond because it was such a funny when he sold it really well. And then, of course, he went on social the next day and said that he was fired or resigning and did it in such a well played way. I love the suspense. Yeah, I think my thing is I like when people poke fun at social media. and just like make fun of it. And because we're all living in this phone all the time and so much of food media was our activity on Instagram, I feel like. And I'm only just now like preening off it and just realizing how toxic that's been.

28:52And I like that he is taking the form and taking people's attention, but using it to like make fun of it a little. I think that's really important. I just dismantle Instagram. Sorry, I shouldn't say that. Yeah, I have a very complicated relationship with my phone because I feel like it's part of the job to be on top of what's happening if I just ignored social media I don't think I'd be doing my job for the podcast or for the for taste in general but on the flip side that shit is toxic and I don't really care about most of it yeah be honest and just connecting it to our discussion about like why people should read still yeah you know media literacy is just at an all-time low social media kind of has made I mean that's what he's sort of making fun of I think Eli I mean, he's making fun of the fact that people can't, they don't have the literacy to see that post and recognize that, oh, that font is a little off.

29:42Like, that's not a real headline. But it was kind of a good headline. It was a really good headline. His fonts were pretty close. I'm surprised you couldn't match the fonts, but it's got to be some time secret. They like, you know, you can't match the fonts. I don't know. But he really pulled a good one. And I think he's like memes as well. Yeah. You know, poking at the hypocrisy of celebrity culture around food. Yeah. Also, he gives deep commentary into the industry, what it's like to be a working chef. And he does a lot of great memes about cost of goods and the stresses that chefs have about certain holidays.

30:15Like he really has a wide industry following. Yeah, he does. He does. And, you know, I was at a bar that day and the bartender was like, that's crazy, right? You guys got a new food critic. And I was like, oh, no, that was a joke. That is amazing. So I'm just saying like he did a good job. I think it also gave him a lot of exposure, which is good because he has a book coming out soon, right? And we're talking about it now. I don't know. Like, I think he might be working on something. Yeah. I think that there's a project in the works. Yeah. I think we can announce that in the future at some point.

30:47And it'll be exciting to see Eli's actual, you know, writing in that way. I want to move on to another story from the week. It's one by you. Oh. I really enjoyed it. I think I texted you right away. And I loved, speaking of reading, I actually, the first time I saw it and knew about it was in my print copy of the New York Times magazine. I love that. Yeah. I think he texted me on a Sunday. I read it on a Sunday. That was really sweet. I do not go first for the magazine. I go first for, I mean, what do I go, what do you go first for? And do you know the reference? That old New York Times magazine, New York Times subscriber commercial.

31:27No, I don't know what you're talking about, actually. Oh, God. this reference is so okay let me let me back now for a second yeah let me back up for and sam was in sifton he got the reference obviously because he was like clearly probably involved in writing it so it was a famous commercial probably ran in the early 2000s where it was like extremely white people uh you know like talking about their uh their sunday and and really they were talking about where they go first. I go first for the magazine. I go for travel and leisure. I go for arts and leisure. Wow. And really, and that was my reference.

32:05That is that story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just like right now shocked that there was even a TV ad for something like that. That's interesting. Yeah, the New York Times used to have TV ads when like being a print subscriber was like the main revenue generator for them and they were like fighting over, I go for arts and leisure. It was like amazing. We're going here. My favorite New York Times magazine reference is from King of the Hill. I think Bobby Hill is reading it and his dad walks in and is like, what are you reading? He's like, the New York Times magazine. And he snatches it because there's this whole tension between the dad wanting his son to be more, quote unquote, masculine.

32:39I think that's hilarious. Oh, that's a funny bit. I like that. It's a joke. So in the magazine, you wrote Lessons from Germany on a Better Bratwurst. It's part of your monthly column in the magazine. I love this piece. It's such a classic Eric Kim, I'm referring to the third person because I like to do that, style of writing because you're doing a lot of your own story and your kind of connection to the subjects, which was very deep to you because it was your fiance's family. But also getting some great cultural context and reporting and then a great recipe at the end. Makes a great column. You're doing 100, 800 words.

33:12Thanks. Tell me a little bit about it. You made this trip to Jachim, Germany. I definitely mispronounced that. Sorry, Bavarian friends. And why were you in Germany? Oh, I was in Germany because to meet my partner's family. You know, I had just proposed, and it was my first time in Germany. He wanted to introduce me to all of his relatives and all the family friends. And so it was kind of a meet-the-family situation. And also my first trip with his parents and his brother. Oh, fun. It was a real, like, initiation into the family. So it was, what's funny about that story is the trip was sometime last, it was in the summer of last year.

33:54So I've been sort of gestating it for a very long time. And I think, or I don't know if like a few months is a long time for people, but as a digital baby, I feel like that's a long time. That trip, what was really kind of profound for me was staying at his great aunt's house. And that house, I feel like I'm trying not to get too emotional about it. But I had this profound experience with this woman that I was meeting for the first time. But this thing that we have in common is my fiance. And her hospitality, her love, the way she cooked in her kitchen. It was a Frankfurt kitchen. And we were about to move homes.

34:40And I think I had this week of peace in that house. It was this beautiful wooden house that just really moves and breathes with the nature of the land. And that's these German sensibilities that I really noticed and wanted to apply to my own life when I came home to New York, which was a messy life in a sky rise. And I was really depressed. And I think I wanted to get that across, but I also just wanted to say thanks to her. And I think we have this language barrier, but I tried to say it with my eyes, but it wasn't enough. And so I was holding on to these words for a very long time, and it felt good to finally write it.

35:22And she got a copy, and she was proud that Bratwurst had—she described it as Bratwurst finally making it to America. I think it's been in America. But what was really interesting about the story, though, was kind of getting to really almost academically sort of understand my partner's culture better. And it helped me to really understand him, like all his quirks. You know, I think they're just they come from a cultural place. Yeah. A lot of them. This is in Bavaria, correct? Yeah. He lives in or he's from the Svalds, like Flannery region. Now, I love the little moment in the piece where you talk about finally having understanding about how he eats so much bread.

36:03Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you kind of like let it hang a bit, which I love about that part of the article, when you don't give it all away. Yeah. Which I love that, when you just don't give it all away. What did you realize, or soon you realized that there was a big bread culture there? Yeah, I think it was, well, the second we got there, jet lagged. And his great aunt, Margit, she made us this huge breakfast. And it was a huge breakfast spread every morning. And then as I started learning about how she put it together and why she put it together, what I realized was that she wanted to show me German bread.

36:41And she was going to a different bakery every morning, biking there, getting fresh rolls. And so every morning there was a different type of roll. And so I was eating a lot of bread. I noticed because my stomach was like this is a lot of gluten and I need some rice But once I got past that I started to understand that the way the way he eats I understood what the way he eats better because you know Paolo wakes up every morning has so much bread and butter Just like has to me. It's like a lot of bread and butter. He doesn't necessarily have an egg He doesn't have maybe he'll have fruit sometimes But I think the way what I learned from my trip and my time in that beautiful house was that Germans kind of spread out their diet throughout the day.

37:25So, you know, in the morning, it's going to be like more of a continental breakfast bread and cheeses and fruits. And then it's heavy, but it's heavy on not heavy necessarily on the protein. And then for lunch, that's when you have the big bratwurst meal. I mean, that's basically I was just so touched by the recipe was a bratwurst with mashed potatoes. And she made it for us and she kind of took the bratwurst out of the freezer. And in 30 minutes, we had dinner and watching her work in that kitchen sort of whip up the potatoes and then hand that plate in front of like put that plate down in front of me.

38:00It was there was a divot in the potatoes and the bratwurst fat was still sizzling in that divot. And I just felt so taken care of. And it was so delicious. It was such a good, it was a good meal. The bratwurst is really rich, but the potatoes were seasoned really gently so that the balance was there. Even though if you look at the plate, it seems like really rich, but the balance is there. And so when I started cooking that at home to try to replicate that, you know, that recipe, I sort of started to understand the German palate, the German, you know, cuisine. And then, you know, I got to talk to Louisa Weiss and got to talk to more people.

38:36And for dinner, you eat something light. it's kind of like you don't really eat dinner when she was on the podcast we talked about uh the way that the sweets kind of roll in at dinner time it's like a sweeter dinner potentially yeah uh back to the the bratwurst you have a potato and you have a bratwurst is that it is that kind of the plate that that is the plate but i think it's the orchestra of the recipe yeah i think when people first some people who like see a simple recipe like they're a simple a familiar plate of sausages and mashed potatoes they're like why is there a recipe for this but you can make it in 30 minutes that's the thing it's like I don't know I figured out a way to have the potatoes boiling I quarter them so that you know you don't have to peel them but you can like slip off the peels once the potatoes are done boiling yeah and then you don't season them that much it's it's it's it's really potatoey and a potato forward and it's the trick it's the same trick I learned from you know Nick and or which is you you can mash the potato as much as you want before you add the liquid and once you have the liquid you fold it in and And that's sort of this secret, I think, that carries through all mashed potatoes.

39:42And then the bratwurst is really the thing. You know, when I'm developing that recipe, I'm working with American products. And what that means is we don't really have access to fresh bratwurst, you know, maybe Italian sausage, sweet Italian, whatever. But there are purveyors of fully cooked bratwurst, you know. And I think my goal, I developed this recipe between my time in Atlanta over the holidays and New York. But the goal is to take that deli meat, you know, section product, bratwurst, that's fully cooked and kind of like give life to it again. And the one way that I found was really lovely was kind of simmering it first in a little water and butter.

40:23But also piercing it because once you pierce the bratwurst, it really lets out its fat. And then, you know, you cover the pan and then you remove the pan. And what happens then is the bratwurst has been, you know, kind of like fluffed up again, kind of like it has more moisture on the inside. But also the fat has rendered into the water and then the water evaporates and then it sizzles in its own fat. And I think that I like when what you end up with is a bratwurst that tastes really of the bratwurst because really that product is special. It's great meat. It's really good, really lovely spices.

40:57Right. That's what makes bratwurst special, I think. And I don't know. I hope people can appreciate that I'm trying to help people take really ordinary ingredients from the store. And just also show them that if you look hard enough, there is probably a bratwurst at your store. There might be one brand of it, but you should try it. And then doing this method will bring it to life and make it feel like you're having a fresh bratwurst dinner. Love that sentiment. When you were there on the trip, were you thinking story? Were you thinking that this would be something to write about? And when you were in Germany in general, as a reporter on the road, but you're on holiday, you're visiting family.

41:32How do you think about your writing when you're spending more of a leisure time? It's really hard not to think in story. I'm always, you know, I come back from, yeah, you go and travel, you're supposed to rest and not think about work. But then I can't help it. And I come back and I'm really excited to talk to Genevieve about all the delicious things I ate. And frankly, I got a lot of stories out of that trip because what I really loved eating, you know, in that area of Germany was the German interpretation of other cuisines. You know, that's fun. I mean, in Margit's home, I had the German food, but I think, you know, the German take on Italian pasta or Italian pizza is really interesting.

42:12It's really specific. I was really in love actually with Greek immigrants in Germany cooking their food. And that food is catering towards the Germans. And so that specific, I had a really amazing tzatziki. It was so special. It was fluffy. It was really strained. It was really... Because they're using like German dairy in that tzatziki. So it's like probably a little different front than like official Greek. which is really amazing and different than, of course, in America, which is a totally different dairy culture. And I like bringing out those nuances in my writing and my reporting because that's sort of my mantra.

42:54I wonder one day if it's not going to be the mantra anymore. But with food writing, I like to show people these kinds of nuances in culture because I feel like so much of media is about just getting it down at all, like getting it down the original or the traditional or the authentic. And but I think right now our generation is writing about how that doesn't exist. And it hasn't existed for a while. Like you you have immigrants moving about the world and cuisine is just so so fluid. And the way the way it forms is is what's interesting. And that's the story to me. Love it. Well, I want to do this segment on our show.

43:31Food writers talking about food writing. Hit that subscribe if you're on YouTube. We're going to come back every couple of weeks. Smash that like button. Oh, we're going to go do that. We're going to do special like. I mean, there are comments below here, so you can definitely comment. Is there like a story of Eric's that you love? Is there something that we said that offended you? There's something in my brain that's like when I see the camera and it clicks, automatically I have this spiel that's like, if you want this recipe and many more, go to NYTCooking.com. Go to NYTCooking.com. I'm going to point right at that.

43:59No, I'm doing your lines. But we're going to do this segment. I'm absolutely enchanted with the Graydon Carter memoir. and we have three things coming up where I talk at length about a review of it. But Graydon Carter, famously the editor-in-chief of Vanity Fair for over 25 years. We're going to frame this. The question is, what would you pitch 1997 Graydon Carter today? The idea is that in 1997 Graydon Carter was assigning stories out at$75 ,000 plus expenses paid. Report on it for a year, two years. Come back, tell us what you got. Do that, you know, do that, like repeat, repeat, repeat. That's why Vanity Fair was truly a one-of-one magazine.

44:40I just absolutely loved Vanity Fair. So I want to know, Eric, you got this budget. You got this time. You got Graydon Carter editing you, which I'm sure is a nice experience. What would that story be? Gosh, sorry. I just have to get over the fact that an advance could be that big for an article. This industry, I can't relate. I don't know what that's like. But lately, recently I went to Ohio for an academic conference, the Asian Studies Conference, and I had incredible Nigerian food in Columbus. And that family was doing really special cooking. cooking. And so I guess what I would love to do is really travel America and go to each state, go to the parts that aren't covered, and find out what people are actually cooking in these pockets of culture.

45:37Because to me, American cuisine, as an Americanist or American historian, I mean, I'm fascinated by the way it is now, but it really is going to take on the ground reporters to even tell that story. And, you know, when I was there, I was reading John Steinbeck, not to be like, you know, but that you're reading John Steinbeck. Yeah. He's kind of like the reason I got into writing at all or literary anything. But he, you know, Grapes of Wrath was a serial nonfiction assignment. It was for a paper nonfiction assignment. Sounds weird for that. But he was reporting on the Dust Bowl and and then he turned it into a novel.

46:15But all that reporting was because he was on, you know, he was he was with them and with the migrant workers who who are displaced by the banks. Anyway, I think for me, I would love to I like meeting people and being in their kitchens and talking to them. And, you know, I love a New York restaurant, but it's nice to it's nice to be outside of New York and to be in places like Ohio or. Yeah, I don't know. I love I just love the United States. It's fascinating. I like it academically, I should say. I think that would fit into Vanity Fair. My story, if I had a year and expenses paid, I would want to write the definitive Taco Bell story.

46:55Because I think I haven't read the New York Times, or was it New Yorker did a pretty good job. But New Yorker's 2025 is not working with Grading Carter in 97. I really am fascinated by this chain. I just heard recently that a boutique hot sauce company was approached by Taco Bell and they're going to be on the menu of Taco Bell. So, like, my thought is, like, I want to obviously go to the test kitchen in Southern California and see how innovation happens. But I really want to go around the country and see how Taco Bell is, you know, consumed in different markets. how people how taco bell plays into the relationship with food right um are these daily visits other like social groups that meet at taco bell so there's like a culinary story but like the zoom out is definitely more of a cultural story or a story that talks about economics yeah and i think the single chain it really touches a lot of america in unique ways yeah obviously it's like mexican cuisine in mexico and our relationship with mexico right now is at an all time fucked up, I would say, just to be frank and be blunt.

48:11I was talking to Enrique Alvarez about this recently in the studio, it'll be up later, but I just really think we need to talk more about our relationship with Mexico and Mexican Americans and people from Mexico who live here. And so there's like a whole, there's a lot to talk about with Taco Bell. So I think I would like to take that money and write that story. I love that. Meanwhile, my brain's going to, God, love those cheese fries. The fries are okay. I can't say I like them. Oh, really? I'm not in the cheese fry. I like the cantina menu a lot. Okay. The cantina menu speaks to me. You know, it's like a little more, it's like their version of the LA style.

48:51Yeah. They have like a green packet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, they've got like the soda fountain is always changing. Yeah. And PepsiCo just acquired Poppy. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, are we going to see Poppy at Taco Bell? What's interesting about Taco Bell is, like, it's been around for so long. I recently, when I was back home, my mom requested it. And I was really surprised. I was like, okay. So I got her a Chalupa. And I got my, you know, cheesy Cordita Crunch or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And we just sat at the kitchen island and ate it. And she was like, that was incredible. That was exactly what I wanted.

49:22And I think we were having some beers. And I just, I remember thinking, like, what is her story? You know, like, her relationship to Taco Bell is, you know, immigrating here in 1984. and probably eating that once in a while or buying it for us and having a taste. My mom likes sour cream a lot, and that's something that she knows every time she goes to a Mexican restaurant. Or a Mexican-American restaurant, I should say. It's interesting. It's a really rich topic to tap into. I love it. Or get in touch, Taco Bell. If you want to work on a collab, we can tell your stories. So that would be mine.

49:58I appreciate you. I wonder if Graydon would appreciate these ideas. I'm sure he would. I love that memoir. More to come about that. So we're going to end this episode. And thank you for sticking with us, listeners and viewers. And Eric, thank you for joining. Yeah, thanks for having me. For kicking this new style of show that we're putting out. I just love talking to journalists. I think we have a lot of amazing guests on the show who we get to interview in our studio. But I think my heart sings when I get to talk to a fellow writer about their work. and this we're going to continue doing on this show.

50:32But as we always end on our podcast, we have a taste check. So I want to do a media edition. So I'm going to say it as I always say it on this. We've got some brothers to certainly say, so to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check, media edition. Eric Kim, are you ready? I am ready. And Clayton, our lead producer mentioned, it's a valid point. When I asked that question, we say rapid fire, fast and furious, but typically that shit can be slow. Like the answers can be long. I'll try to go fast. You don't have to. I think it's actually maybe a joke that I say rapid fire, fast and furious, or maybe that's just what is on my mind when I ask that last question.

51:17It gives them an urgency. Yeah, it's like we're trying to end it. And here's some guests are kind of like, you know, one word answers, and I'm cool with that. But anyways, this is the media version. What is the first thing you read in the morning and where do you read it? Unfortunately, it's my phone. Well, not unfortunately. It's voice notes from my friends. Now that there's transcripts, I sometimes read the first couple of sentences just so I know what I'm waking up to. And then I'll listen to it later. So you don't just go to the transcripts? You're actually listening to it too? I listen to it later.

51:50But in the morning, I will read the transcript to be like, what am I going to read today? Sort of my digest. What do you read on actual paper, if anything? I read a lot of books. I mean, I think when I'm trying to get the food history, I have a huge library. And I don't know. I think I tend to write about a period of time where it's not digital. So the only way to find out about Craig Claiborne somehow, in the real way, is to go to the books. And nonfiction, just novels, of course. I don't know. I always have a paperback in my bag. Like you aren't Kindle or. No, I'm really not. I don't know. As a recovering English literature PhD, you know, dropout.

52:33Yeah. Paperbacks. What was your favorite food publication growing up? Foodnetwork.com. Foodnetwork. Foodnetwork. Publication can be broadcasted. Foodnetwork.com. Yeah, I think it was foodnetwork.com. but I have to say I didn't know food media or food writing was a thing until I started working at the Food Network because I was on this other career path but when I was discovering it I really loved reading Mayuk Sen you know he was writing at Food52 at the time I loved reading him and John Birdsell wherever he was publishing and you know I'm not just saying this but I was reading Taste Cooking of course oh beautiful you didn't have to plug that Yeah, but taste has been around for a minute.

53:19How many people were really doing journalism and reporting about food in this nerdy way? Pretty nerdy. I love it. I love it. I got to catch up with John recently in Tucson. Nice. And he's got his queer food book coming out. What is queer food? It's great. It's awesome. Have you checked it out? I have. I have. We've been talking about Craig Claiborne. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. I can't wait to have John on the show. Great writer. We all have a relationship with PBS food programming, right? Like, we all do. And so was there a PBS show that you kind of enjoyed or leaned into as as a kid or even today? So this question, I think, maybe ages me because I grew up with on the Food Network, like 90s and later 90s.

54:05And I would say that in terms of PBS, though, Jacques Pepin and Julia Child, those are the those are the segments I watch now. just the growth of food television and cooking television has changed it's changed so much but I like watching those programs because they they remind me of what what it should be and could be it's kind of just it's about the cooking is whether food and and and it's something that I look to you whenever I freak out about messing up on live TV or something and someone always mentions truly child to me and yeah it's a it's just part of the process I think to mess up on on live camera definitely or maybe cut yourself yeah yeah yeah before my gochicato salmon video on the nmit cooking channel um i had i was scaling the fish because i and and i was stressed because it was one of my first shoots and and i kind of nicked myself a little and so we had to pause for you know 30 minutes and i was really self-conscious about that throughout the whole video but you don't see any of it because it's edited they edited out it's the beauty of the editor yeah yeah good yeah uh i think pbs i think everyone would have i mean for me I would say man I I watched a lot in the 80s I like I watched Jeffrey Smith which is problematic don't google that if you don't want to google that um I think the Cajun Chef probably as a kid as like a very young kid yeah I remember watching the Cajun Chef on PBS and just being enamored yeah first by his fit I mean what a what a fit like a blue shirt suspenders jeans and just the way his knife skills and his hand skills and the way he would demo Creole cooking, of course, in his amazing Cajun.

55:49I guarantee. Right. I loved that guy, and I thought that that really got me interested in food. In my reporting, I find that a lot of the young chefs now, their style of cooking comes from that origin story of watching PBS. Yes, I always think about that. And I like to tell the story of how my generation, we were raised on the Rachel Rays and the Emerald Lagasse's. And I was a huge Tyler Florence fan. That was my representation of being a young food media person as a man. Media is how you can track influence and how people. Rachel Ray, I've made that request to her PR since 2017. I'm making some headway.

56:36I had a conversation about a month ago. That'd be amazing. I would love to have her in the studio. We could have a very cool conversation. She was so lovely to me when I was on her show. I was so glad to be on that show before she stopped doing it. But she gifted me these garbage bowls. And I use them. I use them every day. And I think of her every time. And I brag about it every time. And I think they cut it out of the segment. But I kind of got a little teary-eyed. Yeah. She gifted you a garbage bowl. It was really nice. She was really supportive. She's really cool. I've met her a few times.

57:04and she reads the New York Times yeah she's really cool and an important figure and you know she's gonna get her Martha documentary moment at some point it's really special and I think that history will prove that she was very important for getting people to cook more when maybe cooking was inaccessible hey she's the one who taught me the steaming the bratwurst first and then letting it fry with the little yeah she's the one who taught me that I should just say that yeah rachel credit rachel ray next question tiktok instagram reels eric where are you at right now with with with this thing oh that we love that i love that i love not you i'm not speaking for you but it's it's a thing yeah okay i'll be honest i'm not on tiktok at all i i think i would explode or implode if i if i paid attention to one more media thing because I'm already too much on my phone.

57:58But on Instagram, one of my favorite pastimes to like rot my brain is just I zoom through the reels and my reels right now are a lot. It's a lot of just cute animations of small moments in like relationships or love. It's always like a cartoon, like two puppies, you know, it's like when my partner, you know, ignores me when I come home or like whatever. I'm not explaining it well, but for some reason I'm there in the algorithm and I'm okay with it because it makes me think of my partner and it like smooths my brain. And I really like animal videos. Sorry, that's probably not the answer. I don't know.

58:39Well, I mean, you gave me an example of what's on your feed and that's cool. I think I'm more getting at like as a culture. Oh. We're doing TikTok and Reels a lot and it leaks into food media, obviously. I see. Net positive, net negative. Are you indifferent? Oh, my God. I don't know. I think what I want to say is I hope we get to a place or get back to a place where expertise is recognized and valued. And what I mean, I'm not going to go too long because it's a rapid fire, but I think right now I'm just so fatigued by it personally. And I have trouble. I don't know. I think it's at once I was I was happy that it was democratized this this really gatekept industry.

59:25But I also think now there's just so much and it's hard to drown out some of the noise. And a lot of the people who are actually, you know, have the knowledge, who are actually writing the books, you don't end up getting to see them anymore. Because, you know, your feed is flooded with the people who are trying to be, you know, who are trying to like enter to make money. And that's the part that is the dark internet to me. I think it's dark. It becomes less about the creativity and the art of it and more about monetization, quick bucks, growth hacks. Yeah. But at the same time, like people like Eli, I think taking that form and kind of making fun of it or like using it for good or something.

1:00:08I think that's nice. I want to know. I think if I had a good idea of how I would want to use it, I would enter that conversation. But I just, I don't know if I have time. I barely have time to like brush my teeth. Barely have time. Okay. We'll leave it at that. I like that. Love those sentiments. All right, last one. Eric, where do you want to be in five years with your food media career? Or media career, not just food media because you cover a wide variety of topics. Yeah. I think it's hard to – I think I just want to still be working. I just would like to be – Okay, I'll give you that one. Yeah, I just want to be – I want to be working.

1:00:43I want my byline to still be appearing, you know, occasionally or regularly. a part of me though a part of me though in five years like I'm super tired I'm really tired I think yeah I mean I think I think it'd be I like I like when people kind of go away for a while and then come back like I think it'd be nice to sort of take a break yeah I think I would like that I think taking a break is totally underrated I love the way Adele disappears for four years and writes you know creates another album and comes out every five years our friend Samin Nasrat yes Samin is our Adele is food media. Yeah, and the food media, she took a nice healthy break after the TV show pandemic.

1:01:26And because, again, we're oversaturated with content and I think it's nice when people focus on quality. And I want to continue to write quality journalism, quality books, quality stories. And I kind of also want to expand into culture writing. You know, like I've been playing with it more in my own food columns, but food is culture. But I think I kind of want not just cover other stuff you know I mean Calvin Trillin is a great example you know he of course started as a civil rights reporter and yeah wrote about cops and and then he had his illustrious food writing career and then went back to writing about music yeah I think you obviously could be there yeah five years thanks yeah we'll see but if you retire early or you take a break I won't be able to read your stuff that's well it would be because I'm writing something to be coming out.

1:02:16Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the future, maybe? I don't know. But I was like, yeah, let's leave it there. Leave it there. Okay, well, let's wrap the show. Listen, YouTube folks, I'm going to point at the camera because this was the first, I think it went pretty well. Yeah. We like talked about food writing and that was important. And you know what? If you're listening to this on the podcast and you're this far, check out the YouTube channel. Subscribe. If you're on YouTube, you should comment. Eric, what a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining. Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.

1:02:50This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste