573: The Food That Built Adam Richman

30:27And you just it's don't you I feel that like food is like this precipice. I think social media has has narrowed a fair that gap. And now there's like room for someone that I really like, like Jack's dining room, Jack Goldberg. I feel you'll find him and I would text he's in San Sebastian one of my favorite places and he's eating pinchos but he's also going to find there's a balance I think you're right Adam and I think it's a good point that with social video we have all sorts of social video we have people who are doing eating challenges and we have people who are doing deep ethnographies of cuisines that haven't ever seen the internet and I agree with you I guess I probably should have clarified that this is more the food network and the major network food whatever reason like network television broadly consumed television gets much more critical acclaim and praise for its quality than food i think food when it's on a mass scale as a as a wide network it's usually ridiculed and i agree with you people do take shits too seriously and i think it's there's a difference between being serious and academic and just being, you know, a hater and, like, you know, trying to, like, pick something apart because you can.

31:47I think there's, like, there's that element to it as well. Yeah, of course. Like, right, and it goes both ways because we all, I used to say this, like, well, what's the secret formula of the success of man versus food? And I said, well, here's the deal. We all can't play golf like Tiger, dunk like Mike, run like Usain Bolt, you know, throw a ball like Aaron Rodgers, whatever the ball, whatever the thing. Not so good these days. is right well at the time okay fair enough back in the I'll take it back in the belt era back in the executive championship belt era okay we all can't throw a ball like Brady whatever it is but I think that the point is that we could all eat a lot when we're hungry and like the security guard in this very building said I used to watch your show and say oh I could do that today just right before this interview and And we all eat food, and I think we're all profoundly opinionated.

32:42Someone told me when I was working in China Grill Management, I helped open Ono, that if someone likes a restaurant, they tell their friends. And if someone hates a restaurant, they tell everybody. It's a story of the lowest time. Yeah. It sticks. And so, you know, everyone's got an opinion because they have a way in. And I can't really opine on how Halliburton plays a game of basketball because, you know, I put up more bricks in a pizzeria, you know, so I can't I can't sit there and act like I'm. I love the Halliburton reference. It's a good one. I think he's good. I think he's definitely got a few more great years.

33:19Yeah, he's great. Good reference. Let's talk about your show. You're here to talk about the food that built America. I mean, first off, what an incredible idea and execution. I love the show. I think it's like addictive. I think you're a huge part of it coming in on on camera for context. These reenactments, I have to ask you, what's like the style of these reenactments? It's it's it's obviously done tongue in cheek and with with a real quality, like a production value. But it like doesn't always look that way. There's like I'm trying to articulate why it's so good. Well, I think, so History Channel had done Men That Built America, and I think that was the very first time they realized that there was commerce in investing in these really cinematic reenactments.

34:08But what I liked, I noticed at season one on Food That Built America that they weren't going to just reenact the, you know, I have a key and I shall attach it to this kite and I will fly it in a storm. And, you know, that there is a difference between the shit we watched when the AV squad would wheel in the TV versus this show. And the scene that I always point to is the fact that Dr. Kellogg at the Battle Creek Sanitarium used to give his younger brother notes while taking a shit. And it sort of immediately shows the dynamic. It immediately underlines the schism that was to come. And the fact that of all scenes within the life, is it the creation of cornflakes?

34:49is it CW post stealing you know and creating no it's the moment and they illustrate it relax everybody it's like not you don't actually see him taking the Browns to the Super Bowl but he's actually sitting there on the throne and the brother is like could we please discuss this another time and what I loved about that is these were human beings we have canonized them and lionized them Milton Hershey's got a town named after him Hines has his name on a field How many different things has McDonald's sponsored, even though the McDonald's brothers were wildly disenfranchised by Ray Kroc and so on and so forth.

35:28But these were human beings. Clarence Birdseye, he pulled a fish out of the ice. It froze. I mean, he wasn't thinking about the minutia of, oh, let's see. So when you freeze, ice crystals are hexagonal. So when you thaw, the hexagonal points pierce the epithelial wall of the cell, and therefore it's soggy. But if I freeze under pressure, it's going to—he noticed that this frozen fish tasted as good as when he had caught it. And there was a discovery, and it was a man. It's a woman like Debbie Fields or, you know, Ann Byler, Ruth Wakefield. And they had a moment of ingenuity, but they're a human being.

36:10And they put on their pants one leg at a time like anyone else. but like Christopher Walken in the cowbell sketch, when I put on my pants, I make gold records. We had a lot of impressions off Mike. I wish we were rolling them. Way too many. Way too many. Gotta have more cowbells. Way to sell and just talk about the way these reenactments work and bring humanity to these people. As a boy from Kalamazoo, Michigan, just down the street from Battle Creek, love that episode. It's played in my home many times. I have a couple specific questions from the new season. Oh, cool. Because the new season is out and you can pick it up on streaming services.

36:47Let's talk about Mr. Coffee. I love this episode. We talk about coffee on the show. It's really, really good. It doesn't just talk about the coffee maker, Mr. Coffee, but goes into Folgers versus Maxwell House. Really, really important stuff. It's like really, really well researched and written. Of course, the talking heads, the hosts, the host and the talking heads are adding really great context. It makes the show really fun. I want to talk about that Mr. Coffee episode. Joe DiMaggio plays a role in Mr. Coffee. The first food influencer. Talk about this. So this is the truth. So just for context, and it's hard to imagine this.

37:25This was just in the middle of the last century. People would get green coffee beans, roast them at home on a stovetop, grind them themselves as best they could. In many cases, filtering it through pantyhose, through a sock. there's um articles one can find where they recommended using fish skin or eggshells to make it taste better and to keep the grounds out of the coffee um which is revolting and this notion of you know taking the technology of the bun you might have seen them like at a church event or temple event excuse me b-u-n-n but the idea of having a constantly boiling massive samovar of water is terribly dangerous but the greatest thing was so uh the creator was a bit of uh he likened himself to michelangelo many many times or da vinci oh so he's a guy who right like himself to michelangelo yes that's his vibe yes yeah he he and he created this thing where it would instantly heat the water, and he happened to take notice of the fact that when the Yankees won, there were several images of his teammates drinking champagne, but the Yankee Clipper is sitting in his locker with a cup of coffee and a cigarette, and he claimed he didn't drink, and he said in interviews he would have about eight cups of coffee a day.

38:48Well, this guy flies to San Francisco, finds where, I mean, essentially stalks DiMaggio, finds where he likes to eat lunch, meets him there, says, let me buy you lunch and pitch this to you, pitches Mr. Coffee to DiMaggio. He's like, imagine it. Good, filtered, hot, restaurant-quality coffee right in your home whenever you want it, and DiMaggio says, yeah, I have an ulcer. I don't drink coffee anymore. Wow. And you've flown all the way to SF, and he was, the pitch was so compelling that DiMaggio lends his name, likeness, and voice to Mr. Coffee. And now, you know, we could walk 30 steps from where we are in midtown Manhattan and get a double decaffeinated, half-calf-like cap, coconut milk, flat white, whatever.

39:41And, again, it's why, like, I loathe the fact that the soundbite used in the ad for this show is me saying the crotchety old man soundbite of young people today don't know how good they are. Oh, man, we gotta get that changed. We gotta get that changed. Seriously, I was telling you just before, I feel like I'd get off my lawn. Yeah, bro. This is the next thing. No. And pull up your pants. That's not your vibe. You're with everybody. You're with Gen Z. You're hanging. Exactly. What I simply meant by that is that I love coffee, and I love that I can now go to the supermarket and have excellent quality cold brew already in the bottle for me.

40:19Or I can go and get nitro cold brew like I got yesterday at Gregory's. Or I can have Ethiopian or I could have Jamaican or I could have Nicaraguan, Colombian coffees and learn the difference and learn about brewing and roasting. But, yeah, it's come a long way from the gold rush coffee has. Let's talk about the brothers Carney and the brothers Monaghan. you know these are brothers that really made an impression on your producers to do a whole episode around them we're talking pizza here the Carney brothers obviously founders of Pizza Hut and one of the greatest facts about the creation of Pizza Hut ever so the only sign they had was a premium given to them by Coca-Cola and there was only room for eight letters on it they knew five of which had to be pizza so they had three letters and they thought about pizza pit and ultimately because of the curvature of the building roof they said okay pizza hut first night the oven breaks and all these things go wrong but whereas domino's which and they took over a place called dominic's and yes the delivery guy was gonna go home and this guy this notion of how far away do you live i'll get it to you in 30 minutes and this idea of guaranteeing a pizza in an amount of time was surreal.

41:48But I think people don't realize, even though Dan Carney apparently says it didn't really happen, that an offer was made to purchase Domino's by Pizza Hut. I mean, they were the two competitors. To be fair, and, you know, I mean, I acted, and I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, Laurence Olivier or something like that talk about a dated reference. uh the the actor who plays carney in um that episode he's a very vincent carthizer thing going on yeah he has um a slightly ham-fisted sociopathic delivery and i'll never forget the line he uh he's sitting across the table they want to buy dominoes the guy from dominoes says listen i still feel there's more in the tank here and i i'm not ready to do that and he goes like this he says all right i get it betting on yourself i totally understand that just know one thing we'll never stop coming for you i was like holy hell call security dude has someone checked on the mod ad i mean deep competition i would say to this day i mean those those guys still try to get market share i mean there's a lot of incumbents coming up who are who are who trying to get fast food pizza, you know, like.

43:08Father John. Yeah, no, absolutely. But, you know, I filmed with some of the top brass at Domino's for Adam Eats the 80s because I forgot this, that in the 80s they actually did an initiative with two different varieties of breakfast pizza. Oh, my God, amazing. They did it. It was in conjunction with USA Today newspaper, and you would call and you would get either a bacon, egg, and cheese pizza or, like, a blueberry strudel pizza. it would be delivered to you with a USA Today and I think a cup of coffee the issue is this, this was pre-app time and with pizza the window of ordering tends to be like 11am to 11pm ish but breakfast is generally like what 7 to 9am and so it was, they had a deluge of orders all coming in via analog telephone it was a logistics nightmare It's like 705.

44:07They have like tough fire. A thousand orders for these pizzas. Yeah, not the best. So they discontinued it. But I have to tell you, they found the recipes for us in the archives. Listen, if you're within earshot, Domino's, you got to bring that breakfast pizza back. Did they make it for you? Yeah, 100%. And then we went to Plano, Texas to the Pizza Hut headquarters, which was great. They even gave me one of those awesome old school red pebbled glasses. Oh, those are so great. So sick. I love those. So sick. They even gave the Jew some Christmas ornaments that were shaped like that. They brought back their discontinued items from the 80s, the Priazzo and the Kalitza.

44:44They did that one that was like a calzone-ish type thing. Yeah. And the Priazzo was almost like a small pan pizza thing. And we asked them, we said, how did you come up with these names? And it was like a computer-generated thing to come up with Italian. They were using AI. Similar, yeah, to create these names. I said, like, Priazzo sounds like part of a villa. Like, oh, meet me out on the Priazzo. Yeah, right. You know, oh, my name is Giuseppe Calizza. But that was these names, and they were wonderful and really labor-intensive. And people say, oh, you know, now you live in New York, and we have Lindistry, we have Best.

45:22What's the new one from the folks from, was it Eleven Madison? EMP, they have a new one. I can't remember the name. Sestras or something? Sounds like that. Yeah. Something like that? It's hard to remember, obviously, because I don't remember. It seems like that's like the buzzy$50 pizza, though. That's the thing they're hitting the$50 threshold. Is that what it is? Maybe$45, something like that. See, that pizza better come with a Bitcoin or something like that. I just, I don't know. I mean, I've had really, we filmed my show with First We Feast at Una Pizza Nabolitana, which is the hotness, and they don't, I don't think, charge.

45:53Yeah, I mean, I might have made it kind of stretching. I think it's like$40. And listen, I'm all for charging if they're putting good ingredients. all for charging. We talked about it a lot on the show. It's a$40 pie. Bless you for doing it. I thought you were going to see the Bigfoot pizza at Pizza Hut. Are you familiar with this from like the early 90s? I remember the commercial. What was on the Bigfoot pizza? It was extra large. It was like, and they did the paper over it to deliver it. They had that little sheet. Oh, my God. And they used a special cheese. And if anyone from Pizza is listening, please write it in because they weren't using like low moisture mozzarella.

46:26They were using like a blended cheese that was so good. I wonder if they use Provel. Are you a fan of Provel? Oh, I love Provel. It's like St. Louis, right? Yeah. Emo's. Emo's Pizza. Yeah, yeah, St. Louis style. If people don't know, it's the hybrid of mozzarella and povolone. I think that's what, I mean, I will check Wikipedia. I'm sure that pizza. The Bigfoot Pizza. Oh, my goodness. If you're doing the 90s, you got to look at the Bigfoot Pizza. Yeah, I mean, and I don't know if I've ever had, was it Little Caesars? Wait, stop. Are you serious? I may have. I think that I feel like... Little Caesars, man.

46:57The crazy bread? You never had... You want to know something? I've never been to an Olive Garden. I've never been to a Five Guys. And it's not because of some hauteur. I would. It just never presented itself. Dude, Times Square is right here. We'll go to Olive Garden and we'll go... But I heard they've changed... I saw... Reddit... They changed the breadsticks or something? Wait, they're not all you can eat anymore? No, they changed the actual taste or formulation thereof. Mistake. I don't know, but that's the skinny. That's what I've gotten. and I've never had five guys. What are your thoughts on five?

47:26My thoughts are it's not good. I don't like their fries, and I don't like, I mean, fast food burgers are obviously cooked to one temp. I just don't really like their patty. I don't like the ratios. I think it's way too much condiment and BS. I think it's, for me, Shake Shack's God tier, and In-N-Out's probably number two if we're going fast food. Yo, for real, so if we're going, like, with chains, I used to do an event on the Upper West Side taste of the Upper West Side. And Shake Shack launched. Fun. The, excuse me, the Shaq Meister, the one with the onions and the horseradish. That, for a mass-produced burger, it was almost like a char-stubau.

48:08It was like that tenderness inside. Yeah. But, you know, now we live in New York. You have George Motes with Hamburger America. Love George. Been on the show a bunch of times. Mike Puma with Gothenburger Social Club. And we have the classics, J.G. Mellon's, PJ Clark. Oh, I was going to straight fast food. I'm a JG number one guy. That's my one. The cottage fries. You bet them cottage fries. You bet them. And I got the, uh, I tried the steak tartare for the first time. Oh, interesting. Good choice. Have you been down to Superiority Burger? No, where is it? That's down in the East Village. Good.

48:40Yeah, yeah, that's a veggie burger. Killer. No, I'm not anti-anti. I don't think so. I need to probably do it again, seeing as how I probably can't close it that I'm sure I'm wearing. You look good. Man, what are you talking about? You look good. Well, bless you. Bless you. In the words of Blanche DuBois, oh, God love you for a lie. But no, The Window. Have you ever been to The Window in L.A.? They have one in Venice. They have one in Los Feliz. Check it out. Great Smash Burger, but they also do a vegan version. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not one of these people that gets his hackles up about, you know, TVP or.

49:16Let me ask you, Adam, what's the dream show? For you, like. That's a great question. You have a production company say, hey, Adam, we want you on, but we want your show. We're not thinking about ratings. We're not thinking about... I do have a few. I have a few. What are you thinking? So one is food tangential, but it's a working title, majoring in the minors or majoring in the minors. Yeah. I love the culture around minor league baseball because there are so many major cities in the United States that don't have a sports team, but minor league baseball, they have the greatest mascots. They have fields, the seats that are affordable to working people.

49:55They usually have unbelievable food. And it's about the fan and it's about the legacy. And there's a chance to see, you know, a future superstar for pretty cheap and to be really close to the field. They've got crazy promotions and stuff like that. So I would say something about that in terms of going abroad. I've always been fascinated with food involving like transit. So food on ferries, food in or by train stops, on planes and things like that. I've always found that really quite fascinating. And I, because I did culinary anthropology, I think that there's something about going to a place and breaking down the why of what these dishes are.

50:40Absolutely agree. You know, because I was just mentioning to someone that was like kind of poo-pooing cilantro. And I was like, but no one stops and thinks, how is this one green leafy herb so prevalent in Vietnam as it is in Mexico and called coriander in one place and cilantro in the other and the versatility of it. I've also given some talks about farm to table and I took my mom and I've gone recently to Blue Hill at Stone Barns a couple of times in the past year. And I think there is something about farm to table because it's always sort of gotten my ire up that the people that work on our farms can seldom afford to eat at that table.

51:23And I think just if there's a kind of greater degree of accountability, I think that would be pretty cool. I think you could do a really nice job in blending the stories of the farms and then stories of the fine dining and then have like a real personality-driven show. I'd also kind of like to do something like with celebrities that have, because I find people much more famous than myself, of which there are, I mean, look, the parrot from Beretta is probably more famous than I am. Good reference. But the, yeah, I'll dig, sorry. Are you going to do an A-Team reference at some point? I was about to say the monkey from BJ and the Bear.

51:56Okay. And then all of a sudden people take out their dentures. They're like, I knew that one. Remember dentures? Remember like watching TV as a kid and having denture commercials? Polydent, a caraway scene stuck between it. It was like Phyllis Diller doing the commercials. There's so many Paladin and so many just like creams and gums. But now we have Xarelto. I know. Now we have all that stuff. It's wild. Like, listeners, sorry if you're below 30. You probably don't own a denture. Okay, so I guess it would be the difference. Like, yeah, I don't know. It would be who's a – whatever, a little animal mascot on a show.

52:27But the point I'm trying to say is I would love to see – because so many celebrities have an interest in food that don't work in that industry. what if there was like a blank slate restaurant and you let these people create a pop-up for a week and to see them pick a menu, pick what level of involvement they're in, pick dishes, and just to see their aesthetic. Like, huh, I didn't see them having that gear. So they get to kind of shot call, but there's like a team that executes it. Exactly right. So it's not like this idea of failure, which I think is kind of a trap in reality TV. I hate that. I hate it, too.

53:05It's like bullshit. We all know it's always cooked anyways and fake. But like, let's make it really cool. But what is your vision of a pop up Selena Gomez? Exactly. Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. So if John Legend and his wife did one, being that his wife has Thai roots, this notion of Chrissy Teigen and her mom and like, well, like, no, that's not how my mom would make that curry and working to develop it. And just seeing another side, because as I meet professional athletes that recognize me and they talk about it and learning what their food story is or a musician and finding out what their food story is.

53:48And I also really have always wanted to do something. I began researching this for a book called Quest for the Best. And it's actually the name of my YouTube channel, right? I, I, for a couple of years, I was trying to find the best crab cake in Baltimore, best bone and ribeye in Dallas. Oh, fun. Best bagel and schmear in Brooklyn. I like it because it's a little bit of a, you know, a debatable, like, debate show. 100%. Yeah, smart. Best key lime pie in Key West. Yeah. And I, I would very, I think that's, that and the minor league baseball one would be like number one and two. I think Quest for the Best and Major in the Minors because I feel it's the greatest opportunity to uplift as many other people.

54:29and to make it about other people. I think my job as a host is to be you. I'm your con. It took me a minute to get it. It's not about me being clever. It's not about me being cool. It's about me being you. So if I'm rude to my host, you will accept me as your cipher because you're going to go, dude, I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't put my feet on the furniture. I wouldn't say, hey, toots, you know what I'm saying? So, but if I can become as invisible as possible and you see Mike Emerson from Pappy's Barbecue in St. Louis and Skip Steele from Pappy's Barbecue and you see their genius and their joy, I've done my job.

55:08So how sick would it be to go to Blue Heaven in Key West? And my favorite Key Lime Pie is Joe's Stone Crab in Miami. Oh, yeah, that's a great one. I would say there. What a cool restaurant, too. Phenomenal. And the Key Lime Pie Factory in Red Hook, Brooklyn. Oh, yeah, those guys are great. This one's for our lead producer, Clayton. You once said that the snack and food culture of America wouldn't be anything without Pennsylvania. I stand by that. I'd like to hear a little bit more about that. Ten toes down. I said what I said. Think about it, though. Potato chips alone, right? You have hers and you have small niche brands like Middlesworth.

55:44But then you also have, I filmed in Barrick, Pennsylvania with Wise potato chips. Oh, yeah. But they make Wise at their factory make the kettle cooked chips. They make, what's that one, like Valley Run or River Valley or whatever else. Like there are so many, but then take them out of it. Then go to chocolate. You have obviously Hershey's. You have York Peppermint Patties. It means name for York PA. The Boyer Candy Company in Altoona, Pennsylvania making mallow cups. The pretzel from the, and I want to, I'm going to tell you everybody, it's spelled L-E-T-I-T-Z and it's pronounced like lettuce.

56:24It's lettuce. Pennsylvania is the birth of the pretzel in America. But again, Schneider's, Hanover. Schneider's in Hanover, yeah. There's so many pretzel makers. Then you can talk about, like you go to Philadelphia, right? The Philadelphia cream cheese was actually created in New York, but Philadelphia was synonymous with cows, big cow culture there. So again, you go just the branding alone. the cinnamon roll Swedish immigrants in and around Philadelphia so you they've brought you know what was the progenitor of the cinnamon roll um which is I think it was called stolen they brought it to America so now you have their contribution and then you can even go further to the modern era you think about the cheesesteak you think about water ice you think about their soft pretzels And now you have the roast pork sandwiches that now people associate with Philadelphia.

57:25I think that there's just something partially. So I actually did this research. So the oldest continuing operating chocolatier in the United States, still in operation, is called Shane Chocolatier. It's next to the iconic Franklin Fountain on, I believe, Market. it but a third of the chocolate coming into the united states during the 18th century came through philadelphia and i think it's just really telling that that you have so much influence brought to bear because of that shipping trade it's like why the immigration coming into the low re side helped shaped us i did a campaign with hormel and you would be surprised how many people didn't realize like pepperoni is not italian it was created in like 1909 in the low re side in new york wow like It was people mimicking Soprasat.

58:13And pepperoni really was perfected by Hormel in Minnesota. But Pennsylvania, I have found between the dairy, strong farm culture, and even ice cream. Turkey Hill, I filmed with them in Lancaster. They do iced teas now and stuff. But iconic, iconic ice cream brands all coming out of it. And you mentioned Hershey's at the top of the show, too. Of course, we got that. Yeah. I mean, Hershey's is the whole town. It's the whole freaking town. So, well set. Heinz in Pittsburgh. Heinz in Pittsburgh. And there's no, like, fancy ketchup in your pantry, right? No, no. I mean, no. No, no. Although I remember back in the day when HBO and I was a little kid, when they had brain games and inside the NFL with Nick Bonaconti and Len Dawson.

59:03and like their only original programming was Dream On with Brian Benben and First and Ten with Delta Burke and famed running back and murderer OJ Simpson. They had a show, they did Consumer Reports, and I'll never forget that. Hunts beat Heinz in a taste test. But no, I, you know, I got French's mustard and Golden's mustard and Hellman's mayo and Heinz ketchup in my fridge, you know, like the classics are classics for a reason. I mean, Hines is the only one for ketchup. You know what's so crazy about that 57? Did you know that they actually had more than 57 varieties when that came out? Hines was riding the L in Chicago.

59:42He saw a place advertising 28 varieties of shoes, and he liked the idea of having a number. The rumor is his lucky number was five, his wife's was seven. He combined them. Other people say he just liked the number 57. But in point of fact, he had just picked this number arbitrarily, but had more products than 57. And again, that success, the success of Heinz, really relates to World War II because he was putting all those canned provisions on British shelves. And all my friends in England are like, you know, my Heinz means Baines. I'm like, OK. We're thinking ketchup over here. What a great story.

1:00:23I love that Pennsylvania punches above its weight. Adam, on This Is Taste, we ask guest and brother to turn in taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire. Fast and Furious Taste check, are you ready? I hope so. Yes, yes, yes. I'm very ready. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey.

1:00:58It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies.

1:01:31I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. Butcher Box is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my instant pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure-cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.

1:02:11It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited-time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. The best fruit. Best fruit. Strawberry. What kind of strawberry? Abstract question, I get. Abstract question. Big, big fat one.

1:02:59I think Dorset is where they come from. That's what I was going for. The worst vegetable. Worst vegetable. Oh, boy. I know like worst vegetable, like side dish, but I... Lime-a-bee? Yeah. Maligned, canned, very bad. The best dessert. Best dessert. Junior's Cheesecake. Love that call-out. We don't go to Junior's enough. Support Junior's. Yeah, shout out the Rosen family. Yeah, no, made me the man I am today. Love that. What's your typical breakfast? If I eat breakfast, Ezekiel bread, two eggs, sunny side up, toast. Yeah, sort of basic bitch kind of thing. sliced avocado oh good avos that's good this is a bacon if i have time okay this is a this is a good one i think for you is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead yes two deadlock thai luchows which was like in here in uh manhattan and it was sort of a little german themed or austrian thing i remember but i went when i was younger there was also a place It's called the Triangle Hofbrau in Brooklyn, if I'm not mistaken.

1:04:12That was another deeply, deeply special one for me, I think. What is your favorite city to visit outside America for food? Fantastic question. San Sebastian? Into it. San Sebastian in Tokyo. Yeah, good answers. What is your favorite cookbook of all time? Selfishly, probably my own. But no, I would, I mean, I grew up learning from the New York Times cookbook. And I think that's sort of like a Bible in my house. So I'd say that one, but then if not, that my own. I love it. Respect. What's the title of your book? Straight Up Tasty, Meals, Memories, and Mouthfuls from My Travels. Oh, nice. Yeah, there was a colon in the middle there.

1:04:57Yeah, I feel like there was a colon in there. A sir title. Straight Up Tasty is fun. Last one, your favorite sandwich.

1:05:05probably so like as a classic sandwich or a specific place qualify let's go am I allowed to qualify you can qualify you're allowed to we've had a great interview you're allowed to qualify if we're going general the chicken salad club if I'm like to chicken salad bacon lettuce tomato without the middle slice of bread but I normally say Tommy Denix roast pork from Reading Terminal Market, but I just had a sandwich in London from a place called Sandwich Sandwich. A young guy from Bristol and his girlfriend moved up to London, and their Christmas sandwich literally almost made me cry. It was that good.

1:05:44It was, first of all, he more or less sleeps in the store. It works like 18-hour days, this kid. He's just absolutely bloody incredible. But Sandwich Sandwich's Christmas sandwich or holiday sandwich and is spectacular. And I just had Angelo's cheesesteak in Philly. Oh, yeah. He's the guy who partnered with Bradley Cooper. Yeah, yeah. That was pretty great. But I love Tommy DeNick's roast pork. I voted at best sandwich in America, and it's pretty dark. What's the voting body? What is this? You're looking at it. So good. Adam Richmond, what a pleasure. What a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:06:22Thanks, what a great interview. It's the best. This is like one of those, usually interviews you can't always tell you're using canned sound bites like oh i don't know you have another guest coming i don't want to leave oh i don't want to leave if you if you had like loops in the arm i would i would zip time myself so you'll have to come back then say less i would let's go get some sandwich i love it

1:06:44lindsey green welcome back to this is taste how are you doing thank you for having me back i'm great how are you i'm really great you sent me uh your amazing uh top 10 restaurants in detroit where you're the dining critic at the Detroit Free Press. And I just love reading your work. Thank you. That means a lot. Thank you. Yeah. And it shows so much reporting that goes into this big temple list. But of course, you're reviewing restaurants every week. How do you find time to do this big list and then review the weekly restaurants? Man, it's well, I so I don't actually review weekly, which is kind of nice.

1:07:23That gives me room to not lose my mind. Yeah. But it is a lot. And so I actually don't know if you know this, Matt, but I was on maternity leave. I just had a baby four months ago now. And so it made, you know, curating this list a little challenging because I was gone for part of the time. And once I got back, I jumped right into the list. And it just it's just been a whirlwind. um well congratulations and i i love the list let's go over i want to start actually with restaurant of the year because you you write this beautiful profile of adriana jimenez of the restaurant vecino it's a really great snapshot with somebody with like deep detroit roots who started restaurants in pontiac and waterford and then eventually opened up vecino kind of more downtown.

1:08:16What drew you in to Adriana and her work? So I think what's really great about Vecino and Adriana's story is just that, you know, Detroit has a huge Mexican population and we've got a really established Mexican dining scene in Southwest Detroit. But what Vecino is doing is, first of all, like you said, it's in Midtown, so not in Southwest Detroit. And it brings a different cuisine. So the restaurants that we're familiar with in Southwest are largely Jalisco leaning. And so Vecino is focusing on Mexico City cuisine, which is just different for the scene. It just brings something new. And then it's also, it's an upscale kind of environment, which feels very Mexico City, feels very sort of metropolitan, which also just fits in, you know, that midtown Detroit neighborhood.

1:09:16Whereas in Southwest Detroit, a lot of the restaurants are a lot more casual. You know, it just really feels fresh for the scene. And Adriana just seems like the perfect person to bring this kind of a restaurant to Detroit because of her family history, you know, because she kind of grew up in restaurants in the area and because she is, you know, a Mexico City native. So I'm really excited about what they're doing. Is it a tough reservation? You know, it's about to be. I love that. Of course it is. That's really fun. When you profiled her, you know, did you tell her that this would be the number one restaurant or were you just interviewing her?

1:10:05No, it's totally a secret. And it's really funny, because for a lot of folks who have been, you know, been around for a while, they kind of know what to expect when I reach out, but I'm super vague. It's yeah, I'm writing a, you know, writing a story about restaurants that have opened over the past year and loves to know more about your story. So yeah, I don't, I don't, I mean, I'm sure at this point, she suspected and then just the cadence of the way we roll them out, you know, going from 10 to six, then five to two. as they see, you know, oh, I'm not number five, I'm not number four, then it's like, oh, you get ready.

1:10:41Oh, that's really, really fun. I love that reporting when you're just talking to, you know, restaurant and chefs and, you know, vaguely about this big plan you have. It's so great. It's so true. Let's look at your top 10. You know, first broadly, you wisely framed it around immigrant foodways. Lindsay, tell us why it was so important to have this lead the selection of these restaurants, you know, maybe over, you know, simply the 10 best during these, you know, times of great political upheaval and really some policies that are, I would say, gravely affecting immigrants in our country? Sure. Yeah.

1:11:27You know, well, I think it's important to note that this isn't something that I am editorializing. You know, this really is the nature of the best restaurants in this area during this time. And so when I started to see this trend, you know, it kind of started with Vecino really being an exciting addition to, you know, to the scene. I started to sort of see this trend of, okay, well, there's vecino that is, you know, focused on Mexican cuisine. And then there's Puma, which is a restaurant that was intended to be a choripaneria, which is, you know, a place where you get choripans in Argentina. And then you see like, you know, okay, maybe it's not immigrant led, but then you see a restaurant like Lenya, which is focused on Spanish cuisine.

1:12:20And you just start to see this list of really beautiful sort of cultural moments come together. And that's against the backdrop of, you know, what's going on politically in this country and sort of the conversation around immigrants and just kind of seeing that juxtaposition felt like I could not not call that out. You know, I could not not acknowledge the fact that our best restaurants really are driven by folks who come from immigrant families or who are immigrants themselves or who are just wanting to celebrate cultural food ways because they're just so delicious, you know? And so it kind of happened by, I want to say by accident, but, but it's also just kind of consistent with what have been the best restaurants over the past, you know, I want to say that in recent years, but really it's sort of forever, you know, I think these, these international foodways, these global foodways are, they, they power our dining scene and, and they're acknowledged for it for a reason.

1:13:34So I kind of, in that intro, I reflected on our former winners too. Sozai was a restaurant of the year and went on to win a James Beard and that's led by a Japanese chef. And one of the first James Beard awards that we had in over 20 years was also a Japanese chef from Japan. And then we had Warda, who we love. She's a pastry chef based in Detroit, and she won the first James Beard in over 30 years in Detroit proper, and she's from Algeria. So kind of just this reflection of the immigrant contribution to our dining scene and just cultural foodways that we love so much. Absolutely. And I love the Warda Pâtisserie mention.

1:14:26What an incredible visit. And also, So I'll just add to you, you know, looking at the top 10, there's also a spirit of community, which can be a watered down term in some ways. But you really do highlight restaurants that are creating third spaces, that are creating community in neighborhoods that are maybe formerly underserved. I was speaking with an editor recently at a national food magazine about Detroit. And, you know, she had a real sense that Detroit supports Detroit. And like you're at Shenan Wine Bar and you're hanging out with people who are at Vesper the night before and then you're hanging out with people.

1:15:07So like that seems like it was it informed your list as well. It's so true. Yeah, that's something that comes up consistently, just that Detroit is this collaborative food community, whereas in other scenes you might see more competition. And I'm really happy to see that that has been consistent across the board from pop-up chefs to traditional restaurant chefs. There really is this community. I mean, even Sylvester, we announced that winner at number seven yesterday. And just seeing all of the other restaurants on our list and other restaurants that aren't on the list, just kind of shouting them out and sharing their story and, you know, giving them sort of their flowers, as the kids say these days.

1:15:50But just being really, really happy and supportive for them making this list just shows that, you know, they have the community support. Well, let's stick with Vesper. I love to see that inclusion. I got to meet the founding partners last spring when I did a big event with Eric Kim and Jong Kang for my book Korea World. And they couldn't have been nicer to work with. And this is a space that is really multidimensional. It's a wine bar. It's a cookbook store, which resonates with the work we do here at Taste. It's definitely a third space. Talk about Vesper and why our listeners need to stop by.

1:16:25Yeah, so Vesper is an example of a place that really embodies why I kind of made the change to include spaces that are not just traditional restaurants on our list. You know, it's the kind of place that I really want people to know about when they're outside of Detroit. I want them to say, wow, Detroit has, you know, even more than just great restaurants. They've also got great wine bars. They've got great cafes. They've got great bakeries. And so Vesper is a cool spot because I love what Rob and Samantha are doing and that they're taking that stuffiness or that pretense out of the wine bar experience.

1:17:03And even they're kind of taking out that hipster vibe, too. They really just have created this playful, lighthearted, like I said, sort of community driven space. And they're making it fun, but they're also taking it really seriously. You know, Rob is really being thoughtful in the way that he's curating the wine collection there, the bottles, the glasses, everything that they serve. And then they're also serving like, you know, bread and butter boards, sourcing bread from from a local bread baker who's in the Core City neighborhood and doing some really phenomenal things. So, again, that community element is there.

1:17:42Samantha's curating some really great cookbooks. You know, she's got I picked up a copy of the the new Flamingo Estate coffee table book. I'm drawing a blank on the name, but that one is really beautiful. And also the new Eric Agepong. I think I think you might have just had him on the show. We did. Yeah. We had a wonderful conversation with Eric. What a what a terrific book. And I loved in the copy you plug and mention Cakezine, which. Yes, yes. It's just such a beautiful copy. I just think it's really giving that biblical text. Daily bread. Yeah, it's very fun. And I think that Vesper really is making an effort to program conversations with cookbook authors on book tour, which Detroit really, really needed from my point of view.

1:18:33And now there's a great space for all authors to swing by. And of course, with the wine program, there couldn't be a better place to have a cookbook event than a wine bar. Oh, my gosh. Exactly. It's perfect. It's really cool. It's a great place for so many things, you know, book clubs. You could pull up and just have wine or, you know, sometimes I go in there and I'll work. I'll sit there on my, you know, my computer. It really is. I think they've achieved that intention for being a third space. Let's move on to Savoy in Cornerstone Village. I love this mention because I was unfamiliar with this restaurant and really want to visit.

1:19:10What were you saying when you selected Savoy? What did Savoy mean to the neighborhood? Yeah, I think what Savoy does is it brings this more upscale sort of restaurant to a neighborhood that really doesn't have that option. I live on the east side of Detroit, not far from Savoy. And a lot of the options that we have over here are takeout spots. You know, it's takeout or it's fast food. And so they've brought an option that allows people to, you know, have a date night or have a girls night. or have a solo, you know, date night. And it's, yeah, it's really nice for the neighborhood. Let's, I'm not going to spoil all of the selections because you should definitely click on the link that I'm sure you can get a subscription if you don't have one.

1:20:01And if you live in the Midwest, Detroit is hands down the most exciting food city in the Midwest, I'm saying it, it's true. Yes. Let's close and talk about Norm's Diner, which lands in the top five. I love this idea of the diner being elevated, but what is it saying? Like, is it saying that this is a diner that is an exemplary diner and doing diner food, or is it elevating the idea of a diner? I just want to know more about it. I have questions. Yeah, I think that's actually a great question. Yeah, I think it's both. I mean, I think that it's, so Norm's is definitely kind of elevating diner food.

1:20:40So especially here in Detroit, a lot of our diners are Coney Islands, or you've got those kind of mom and pop shops that have been around for a long time. And I think what Norms is doing is taking that same concept, but they're taking it really seriously. They're making, you know, pretty much everything in house. They're making house made sausages. They've got house made breads and, you know, biscuits. So I think it is the same, you know, concept of that mom and pop feel, but they're taking it a step further. And I think, you know, it's funny, I had a conversation with Kate over at Bon Appetit, and we kind of were talking about just this trend that the all-day diner is really having a moment across the country.

1:21:22So it's kind of nice to see that a place like Norm's or folks in Detroit are kind of following the national trend of really serving great food and really exciting menu items, but from a diner. There's no frills here. You can't make a reservation. There's a line out the door every day that they're open. It's fun. For me, the specials are the most exciting pieces of the menu at Norm's. I had a Johnny cake with a chicken cutlet once. It was amazing. It had hot honey on it, and they chopped peppers on top. That's not the kind of thing you're going to find at a normal diner. Oh, my God. This is making me very hungry.

1:22:09I have to make it at Norm's Diner. Let's close, Lindsay, and just like you've done all this research for the top 10 and, you know, all the established restaurants. Are there any new openings that maybe you haven't been able to visit or any other restaurants that you think we should know about in Detroit? I know that's a broad question. Yeah, actually, there are some exciting projects that I'm looking forward to. You know, I'm always thinking about the next list. So there's a place actually, they're not in Detroit, they're in Birmingham, but it's called Wilders. And they're from the owners of Phoenicia and Layla and some great restaurants in the area.

1:22:53I'm looking forward to that one. there's, it's new American, they're kind of flashing back to this Americana feel, which in itself is interesting to me. You know, and I think the same, sorry to go back to norms, but I think the same of norms, I think there's this, I'm starting to see this trend of restaurateurs who are feeling this, this sort of penchant for nostalgia, you know, I think that you feel that with a diner, for example, where for some people, it's this feeling of, you know, wanting to get back to a time that they really loved. And for some of us, like me, it's this longing for something that you never even knew, right?

1:23:38I never knew that the days of the retro diner. So yeah, there's something there. And I'm seeing that in Wilders. I'm seeing that in Norms. I'm sure there will be some others this year. It brings up a topic of the northern suburbs. My sister lives up there by Birmingham and like you had a Birmingham restaurant in your top 10. And, you know, there's been as a local, as a Michigander myself and with my my mom growing up on the west side of Detroit. I, you know, the northern suburbs were pretty cursed when it came to food. That was the perception. But you're doing the work and you live there. It seems like there's some exciting things happening in the suburbs.

1:24:17Yeah, there are. You know, this year's list was largely Detroit. We did have a Birmingham spot. We did have a spot also in Oak Park, which Oak Park is, man, there's so much there. There are great bars. There are great restaurants. There are great sort of gastropubs. And Oak Park is a place that you would not have heard of, you know, in the past 10 years at all. So, yeah, there are things happening in the suburbs. I do cover Metro Detroit as a whole. So I'm always looking to see, you know, where those sort of hidden gems are. And I hope there I hope there will be some more. Oh, my gosh. Such opportunity up there, too, with, you know, you know, a restaurant hungry population looking.

1:24:58And this this new opening sounds exciting. Lindsay Green, this has been so fun. I hope to have you in the studio soon and we can talk about so many other topics. Yes, I would love that. Thank you so much for having me.

1:25:13This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skirzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.