574: Understanding Our Protein Era with Chef Daniel Holzman & Sports Dietitian Christina Chu

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. The history of the meatball shop is my partner, Michael, was a health freak. And I used to make fun of him because he would order spaghetti and meatballs, hold the spaghetti. That was his go-to meal. And that was the basis of the concept of what the meatball shop was going to be. It was hold the pasta. This is Taste, presented by Beef. It's what's for dinner. On behalf of the Beef Checkoff, I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. On today's episode, we talk about protein, one of the biggest topics in food today. First up is a really fun conversation with my friend Daniel Holtzman.

1:08Daniel is a chef and owner of Danny Boy's Famous Original in Los Angeles and the co-founder of The Meatball Shop. This is a guy who knows how to cook with beef while balancing his diet for optimal fitness. We talk about the pizza game and the creative ways he cooks to maximize his daily protein intake. Also on the show, we have a fascinating talk with sports dietitian Christina Chu. Christina works with professional athletes and actors in building programs to balance their diets and compete at the highest level. We talk about Christina's favorite sources for protein, beef included, and how she likes to think visually about the plate, balancing carbs, vegetables, and protein.

1:48I hope you enjoy this episode.

1:58Daniel Holzman, welcome to This Is Taste. Great to see you, my friend. Deeply, deeply grateful for my opportunity to be here and spend time with my friend, my friend, Matt Robbard. Well, we have a deep, deep relationship where we've written a book together and I just love spending time with you. There's real chemistry in this room because this is born of true friendship. True friendship. It's not fake on microphone. No, none of that nonsense. Before we get into this beefy conversation, I want to hear about New York. You were born and raised here, though. You've lived in L.A. for several years.

2:29Daniel, when you come back to New York, where do you like to go out? New York is such a shocking experience. Trying to keep up with what's going on in New York City is like, I don't know. It's like trying to jump a bullet train. It's always moving. So when I come back to New York, I'm like a tried and true classics guy. I want to go somewhere that's been here and it's not going anywhere. I want to go to Keene's Steakhouse. I don't want to go to the brand new spot. because when you live here, you can keep up if you're rich. I mean, what draws you to Keens? Because I love the segue to steakhouse because we have such a steakhouse culture here and we're talking about beef today.

3:08So I think that's like the center of steakhouse culture. I mean, what draws you to Keens and do you have any other favorite steakhouses in New York? So look, New York City is like, I mean, it's like the epicenter of great steakhouses because when I think of steakhouse culture, it's celebration, But it's also, you know, it's a martini and it's a business dinner if you work on Wall Street or something like that. I imagine, right? Although those guys are probably vegan now. Who knows? Yeah, they're probably doing, I would say, like some kind of like plant-based. Soylent. They're eating soylent at their desk.

3:38Quants. Yeah. I, you know, I used to live very close by Peter Luger's. So I've eaten there the most often. And I've tried to go to all, I'll say this. The best food, pound for pound, dollar for dollar steakhouse, in my opinion, is Wolfgang's. I think that the actual quality of the food there is spectacular. But if you're looking for experiential, you know, like New York City, you could feel like you were sitting with Thomas Jefferson in the other corner of the room, you know, with great food. Keen's for me is the total package, right? Yeah. It's the total package. Like Sparks, you're like, oh, man, that guy got shot in the head over there.

4:23That's super cool. It's got a bloody history with the beef and otherwise. It's got a bloody history. But Keen's Steakhouse, you know, you see the pipes when you walk in there. It's so damn cool. I've never had the mutton chop. Have you ever had that? That's their thing. They've got the mutton chop. I've gone with the mutton, but I'm more of a steak guy there. I think the mutton's a little overrated, frankly. It's a cool experience, that Keen's Steakhouse. Listen, the last time I came here, I was so happy to see that there were no reservations available. Yeah, they're thriving. I think it's a cool location.

4:53It's like just off Koreatown, too. It's like a unique little pocket. If you're going to Madison Square Garden to see the Knicks, you can pop by Keen's afterwards. Keen's afterwards. Let's talk about the Steakhouse Burger in New York. I never crave a burger. I'm not interested. However, I think that the Peter Luger's hamburger is the burger in New York City. Yeah. That's what I think. The lunch burger at Peter Luger's is the burger. Do you disagree? I like PJ Clark's personally. I like Hamburger America, George Motes' new place. Very cool looking. Very cool spot. I haven't been there yet. Is it great?

5:24I think you've got to hit it up on this trip. But the PJ Clark's burger is spectacular. There's no question about it. Go with Luger. We've had Daniel Turtel. The last time, didn't you and I go to PJ Clark's for a celebratory burger lunch last time that we were together? You had just done, we've been together luckily several times since then, but you had just done Kelly Ripa for our book Food IQ. And we went to PJ Cook for a burger. And we went to PJ Cook afterwards. It's a great burger. My thing about a hamburger is, well, I was going to open a burger restaurant. I know you were. But I got into an argument with my partners because I wanted to call it a chopstick sandwich shop.

6:01Oh, he wasn't feeling that. And he didn't feel that. But I think you've got to elevate a burger to be the chopstick. It's either a hamburger or it's a chopstick sandwich. Back to Luger's. I love this call. What is the burger? What's your memory of that burger? My memory of that burger is I love a rare burger. I like a thick, rare steakhouse burger. I want it to have an onion, raw onion. I want it to have tomato on there and I want to taste the meat. I want the bread to hold it together, but I don't want the bread to overwhelm. Right. So when I think of a great fast food burger, I think of an equal balance.

6:40You know, the lettuce is crunchy. The the pickle gives it flavor. Right. You got the special sauce. All of them combined to make the burger. When I think of a steakhouse burger, I think of the beef being the star. Yeah, I agree. You want to taste the beef. You want to taste that dry aging. If they have it in on the burger, you want to taste a little cuts of brisket, possibly some some great scrap. If it's thick enough, you can get that crispy. Yeah. Spectacularly, interestingly, one of the hardest. So we own this restaurant that made meatballs, right? Yeah. For a long time, this restaurant made tons of different types of meatballs.

7:13Like pork tastes like pork. Chicken tastes like chicken. You could taste it. But there's something about beef that only tastes like beef when it has that crust. It's part of the cooking that brings out the flavor. and a burger really tastes beefy when it's got a crust and it can only do that without overcooking if it's thick. Can we also talk about the fat content for the juiciness also, though? That's another thing. I mean, are you like 80-20, 75-25? I think on a thick burger, you could go a little bit leaner, but the thinner the burger, the fattier it's got to be. I could go down to 70%. Wait a sec, my guy.

7:50Yeah, I could go down to 70-75%. Is that legal? Can you legally do 70-30? I mean, it's hard to keep that fat in there. It wants to drain out. Yeah, because it would probably lower the ounces if you had too much fat. That's why the Wagyu burger thing, you know, it takes some technique. Let's stick with technique in home cooking. You're a spectacular home cook, and we've written a book together, so I'm obviously biased, but I love it. What are some traps that home cooks encounter when cooking beef at home? This could be possibly grilling a steak, could be braising, like that really tough, you know, lesser cut, so to speak.

8:30I think that beef in America is it's it's better than anywhere in the world. We got the we got the greatest beef in the world here. Right. And that's something that we are very proud of. A beef cow, cattle. What do they call it? Head steers. I had a steer. Yeah. There's big animals and there's a lot of meat and there's a there's a huge variety of cuts. And so you can find a great quality cut of beef at your price point if you buy the right cut and then cook it the right way. I mean, a lot of people don't talk about those round steaks, the London broils that are so delicious. So delicious. Yeah.

9:10I'm a ribeye fan myself. Who is it? And a strip fan. I cook strips more than ribeyes, actually. You're a shell steak man. I just like that taste of it's like an iron in that strip. Less fat, more beef, beefy flavor. When I think of irony, I think of the hanger steak. Yeah, the hanger steak. The hanger steak has got the most kind of irony, livery, you know, that blood flavor. That's it, exactly. The hanger probably has more of that. But yeah, you're right. The New York steak's got less fat. The New York steak's got less fat than the ribeye. The ribeye is definitely the most chubby. Oh, the boneless ribeye.

9:49Delish. What a delicious one. I want to talk to you about Meatball Shop. You referred to it in passing, but you were the founder, co-founder of Meatball Shop and beloved restaurant in New York to this day. So proud. And so, I can't believe I took it for granted, you know, at the time because it was just seemed like, you know, we're just making meatballs. But wow. It was so impactful. And there were so many, many meatballs. We served so many meatballs. I was thinking when we first opened, I was thinking about this because it's February right now. We're in New York City. It's freezing cold. And I used to stay up until 4 o 'clock in the morning.

10:24I would ride my bike over the Williamsburg Bridge. And I would get off of work 4 in the morning. And I was thinking, man, those meatballs really kept me in shape. Because trying to ride my bike right now at 4 o 'clock in the morning at 0 degree, negative 10 wind chill, ain't going to happen. I love that mention of health because you founded Meatball Shop more than a decade ago. And now in 2025, we're in the era of protein maxing. It is like I was reading about the New York Times this weekend. It's like part of our lexicon. Did you ever, when running Meatball Shop, have people protein maxing who understood the importance of getting protein from beef?

11:05Are you not aware that the history of the Meatball Shop is? my partner Michael was a health freak. And he still is. He was a professional bodybuilder. He's an extraordinary shape. He's still looking all right. He's a good looking man. Yeah. And I used to make fun of him because he would order spaghetti and meatballs hold the spaghetti. And he would dip broccoli in the tomato sauce. And that was his go-to meal. And that was the basis of the concept of what the meatball shop was going to be. It was hold the pasta. Well, Daniel, as a chef, you think about food creatively and you think about versatility.

11:41And I just want to get your thoughts on how beef as an ingredient can kind of expand your horizons in the kitchen. I think the beauty of beef is that it is so damn versatile. It's a huge animal with cuts of meat that are tender and great for quick cooking. There are cuts of meat that take hours to braise, right? Flavorful cuts, tough cuts, tender cuts. And so there's nothing more inspiring. And no matter what, think about the great iconic American dishes. And we think about barbecue from Austin, Texas, like long smoked beef that just blows your mind, right? Obviously, every state in America has a burger that they can represent as their own.

12:26Unique, even though it's the same sandwich. It's spectacular. And you think about Los Angeles where you live and you're down in the South Bay and you're having tacos. And oh my gosh, the beef tacos, the BDO or... Wow, just unbelievably delicious. We can all say what we like, but at the end of the day, carne asada outsells every other taco three to one for a reason. It's the most delicious. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, when you're thinking about an L.A. street taco and beef being at the center of it, what's your ideal taco? Man, I love a Mexico City style carne asada taco with onions and cilantro basta.

13:04That's Italian for nothing else. Stop. You know, that's what I love. Do you know what? Let me say this. The thing that's special about beef is that you can cut it thin, you could cook it long, and it stays moist. It's so true. It stays moist. There's something about it that just, unlike other proteins that dry out. Yeah, beef definitely holds its character for a long time, and that's a great call. Let's travel around the country a little more. I like this little trip we're doing. We went to L.A., we went to Texas. Where else do you feel beef in America is so versatile? Is there a dish that comes to mind?

13:39I mean, obviously in the Midwest, like, it's steak country. Yeah. So it's pretty straightforward. But, you know, as we get to the coast, like, in New York City, think about all the beef noodle soup in Chinatown. Yeah. That's just spectacular. Shabu shabu. All of that where, you know, other cultures that have celebrated beef as well as America as, you know, the celebratory food. So no matter where you travel, any country or any culture as it's infiltrated, America has brought with it their favorite dishes. It's so great. I mean, I have to say, have you ever had like a prime rib, like a prime rib roast from like the Midwest or in that style?

14:20pink at the center horseradish on the side have you been to the hopper in San Francisco one of my favorite restaurants of all time I call it the hopper it's the house of prime rib all you can eat cuts right I've had it I've been there oh it's a spectacular restaurant they bring around the cart my favorite part is that they have it's all you can eat but they still have two different prices so you can get the small one or you can get the large one all you can eat and like I'm a big man so I want But the big one, all you can eat. I'm like, how about pay for the small one and just get two or three?

14:53It's such a special place. I love the carts and the way they carve it at the table. Yeah, it's like beef has got such a resonance in America. I mean, you go to Pacific Northwest and you're having Japanese-style beef. You're having incredible teriyaki. I just went to – there's a secret restaurant in L.A. Ooh, tell me. I don't even remember how to pronounce it. and it's like 17 courses of tepan-style beef. No way. It's pretty spectacular. And he's got cuts like, you know, he's like, this is the narrow neck is the translation from Japanese where it's like, you know, the inside of the neck muscle or something like that.

15:34There's like one cut that makes a tender steak and grilled a specific way. It's just spectacular. I mean, we have to close and talk about the restaurant. I think we talk about the most, which is Echabari in northern Spain. Echabari, that steak is... It's a mind-blowing steak. It's an older cow, and it's so good. It's got yellow fat. Oh, my God. That was delicious. What a great grilled steak. All right. Let's talk about your own personal fitness because you're a fit guy, huge jiu-jitsu fan, and competitor. How do you like to eat before a big workout? I can't eat for three hours before a workout, if I'm being honest.

16:12If I eat for three hours before a real workout, then I have – it's bad news. I get real bad heartburn. I eat after a workout. Yeah, yeah, okay. I can eat, you know, some very, like, mild starches before a workout. But after that, it's – yeah. So post-workout, though, I would imagine that protein is important. And talk about the way, like, to balance your diet if you're eating minimally before a workout. At the end, you want to kind of ease into this balance, and I'm sure protein is a big part of it. I mean, the beauty of a workout is you can kind of eat. I'm a naturally large man. You're a middle-sized man.

16:59Not naturally. Naturally, I'm a large man. I have to fight to keep where I'm at. Yeah, I'll eat a steak after a workout all day long. What do they say about protein builds muscle and muscle burns fat? Yeah. So if you want to be skinny, you got to eat more protein. I think that's like part of our modern diet these days, be it with beef or otherwise. Lentils. Understand. Yeah, we would never hide from plant-based proteins. They're a beautiful thing. But they're hard to get. If we're looking at macros, and we are a lot these days. I mean, the books we publish here, we're publishing several high-protein diet books, particularly with the GLP-1s.

17:37I mean, we're publishing all these books and it's important to get your macros, to get your protein. And beef is a great source. I know it's the most delicious source. Yeah, true, true. I know it's the most delicious source. Like we talked about steakhouse earlier, but like you go to a steakhouse celebration because it's the most delicious form of protein. A steak is just delicious. Yeah, yeah. Part of it is the cost to quality ratio or whatever it is. But there's nothing better. Let's pivot to your business now. You're a Pizzaiolo. You run a pizza shop in L.A., several of them. And I want to talk about adding protein and beef to pizza because we think about pepperoni as one.

18:21But, like, your pies at Danny Boy's Famous Original, you run the gamut with the types of toppings with beef. Yeah. We make our own sausage and we have pepperoni. But there's something about a cheeseburger pie that's very delicious. I love that. I like a cheeseburger pie. We also have a Philly cheesesteak pie that, for me, is the most popular pie we make. Wait a sec. Yeah, a Philly cheesesteak pie is spectacular. Those indexes are popping in L.A.? That's our number one pie. For me, it's a loss later. It's too expensive to run it. And I don't want to charge eight bucks a slice because I'm just not that guy.

18:53No. But a thinly sliced ribeye that's been cooked with American cheese, peppers, onions, it's just a spectacular pizza. What's the sauce on a Philly cheese pie? It's a, well, I mean, it's a sauce Mornay if you really want to get into it. Yeah, we can go Mornay. But it's basically, it's an American cheese sauce, yeah. I mean, that sounds amazing. Have you ever tried a Greek pie, like a gyro pie? Is that possible? It's definitely possible. I would probably go like 50 % fatty mutton and 50 % beef is most of the best gyro meat. You know, I love that. Yeah. That combination. It's the butt of that, the butt of those fatty sheep that have that, that delicious, that delicious flavor that, that kind of like marinates and moistens.

19:40So let me ask you about this age of protein maxing and you run a pizzeria and like you've got some protein on your menu, but you're not like a steakhouse. So what are your, are your customers, are you noticing that they're focusing on protein more? I think that, look, folks don't go into a pizzeria to protein max because pizza is inherently balanced. And so the protein toppings are the most popular by far and away. And when we put a veggie pie out there, it just doesn't do that well because people love the flavor of meat on pizza. But I don't think that they're driven by the healthfulness of protein maxing when they're going for pizza.

20:26Fair, fair, fair. I mean, pizza is indulgent for many people. It's a treat. It's what you have on a Friday after a long week of work. That's why it's such a great pizza day. What's on your vision board for beef on your menu? Let me ask you. Is there a cuisine that you want to tap into? You do these great collaborations. You did a great collaboration with a Thai chef. You're doing a Barakas collaboration, which I think is terrific. What about the beef collab? What would the best beef collab be? Let's brainstorm. You think there should be like a braised beef shake? You know what I would really love to do?

20:56I don't want to say like, I love that Chinese beef tendon. Oh, beautiful. And a beef tendon pie would be delicious. I think there's a lot of cuts that we don't celebrate in America that are actually really spectacular. Great texture, flavor, and mouthfeel of that. You know, that beef tendon's kind of like crispy and chewy, but also got like so much moisture and collagen in there. Yeah. I love that. I love this brainstorm. I feel Danny Boy's famous original. Love the pizzeria. Thank you. Love what you're doing there. I'm proud of it. Daniel, and this is Taste West. Guest about the discerning taste.

21:31So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious, taste check, beef edition. Are you ready? No, definitely not. Very nervous. Your favorite cut of beef for the grill. Oh, I'm a skirt steak man through and through. Skirt steak is just spectacular. The flavor of skirt. I remember when it was cheap back in the day. God, God bless that. Oh my God. But my daddy, my daddy used to, used to marinate skirt steak in, in, uh, in Italian salad dressing, throw right on the grill. And there is nothing to this day that, uh, gets my juices flowing like a skirt steak. I love that my grandmother used to make skirt with French dressing.

22:09Perfect. It was with like a brand that, it was not Wishbone, it was like a special brand. It was Miracle Whip. So Miracle Whip used to do salad dressings and she used to do French. Interesting. Miracle Whip salad dressing. So that's like French, when I think of French dressing, I think of mayonnaise and ketchup? Pretty much. Wow. It's pretty much that. Mayonnaise and ketchup sounds like a, I like a mustard base, a sour vinegar mustard base, but I think a mayonnaise and ketchup sounds great. Yeah, it's good. We should make a serendipity out of steak. We should try that. Let's riff on that. Like a grilled mayonnaise steak.

22:40I think that's beautiful. Grilling steak. I love the skirt call. Skirt steak dynamite. Your favorite way to braise beef. It's hard not to just want to braise a beef short rib because it's so spectacular. That dry braising technique I think is so great where it's like slow cooked with a little bit of moisture, covered tight so you're just like steam roasting it. I think, I mean, unless you're going to incorporate the liquid in the end product, the liquid gets so much of the flavor that if you can tightly seal like and dry braise, you get all the flavor locked in. Like the best barbecue, you know, but you don't have a smoker to do it on.

23:23It's such a good call. When you talk about dry braising, it's a great technique. You're basically taking like a large Dutch oven and you're sealing it with plastic wrap. and then you're putting your lid on it. So you're making it really tight. Yeah, I mean, if you wanted to be a fancy presentation, you could take like a couple of great beef. I've got an old school clay cooker. Yeah, those are great. You could do that or you could take a regular pan and you could do like a dough to make the actual seal. And that looks cool. Oh, those are fun. You take a flour and then you have to crack it open.

23:58Almost like a, you know, there's a lot of different ways to do it. But basically, you want to seal it so that you're roasting it in its own moisture. Very, very great technique. We talked about your favorite burgers at restaurants, but let's take it into the home. What's your style of burger? Are you flat top? Are you grill? Do you have some other technique? What's the way to do the burger at home for you? For me, the burger is such like a... A burger is a great flat top burger. A smash burger is spectacular, right? Very much. Thin burger on, but a thick burger over a wood-fired or charcoal. Actually, I think charcoal for me is even better.

24:33A charcoal-grilled thick burger is spectacular. So for a thin burger on the flat top, for a thick burger on the grill. What's the bun choice? I love a potato bun. I like a sesame potato bun for that thin burger. Something really light. Obviously, a thicker burger can stand up to a little bit more. It can stand up to a little bit more. Yeah. A Kaiser roll. Underrated. Is underrated. I like Kaiser. A good Deli Kaiser, or you can get it, obviously, at the grocery store, too. I mean, those are great. They're hard to find anywhere other than New York. I know, right? You don't find them at grocery stores.