575: Fennel For Days with Top Chef's Eden Grinshpan

In short

Podcast Notes: This Is TASTE Episode 575 - "Fennel For Days" with Eden Grinshpan

Episode Overview In this episode of *This Is TASTE*, hosts Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard discuss food culture with Canadian chef Eden Grinshpan, known for her role as the host of *Top Chef Canada* and author of the cookbook *Tahini Baby*. The conversation covers Grinshpan's culinary journey, her opinions on New York City restaurants, her unique recipe style, and her latest book, which explores the joys of plant-based cooking. Additionally, the episode features a discussion with Gena Hamshaw, author of *A Grain, A Green, A Bean*, exploring plant-based nutrition.

Key Highlights

Eden Grinshpan's Culinary Journey

Background: Grinshpan has a multicultural upbringing, growing up in Toronto, a city she describes as the most multicultural in the world. Her culinary style is significantly influenced by her experiences in Israel, particularly the flavors from her visits to Tel Aviv.
Restaurant Insights: Grinshpan shares her favorite New York dining spots, including Scar's Pizza and Bread's Bakery, emphasizing the difficulty of choosing favorites in a vibrant food scene.

The Unique Aspects of Canadian Food

Diversity and Authenticity: Grinshpan highlights the importance of diverse culinary traditions in Canada. She praises how chefs from various cultural backgrounds celebrate their heritage through food, offering authentic flavors.

The Cookbook "Tahini Baby"

Book Philosophy: Grinshpan emphasizes that *Tahini Baby* is not just a traditional cookbook but a lifestyle guide. It centers around the concept of plant-based cooking without being restrictive, offering over 100 recipes that are accessible and adaptable.
Meat-Free Focus: Grinshpan discusses her transition to a predominantly vegetarian diet, inspired by her personal experiences and the feedback from her previous book, *Eating Out Loud*.

Notable Recipes and Techniques

Grated Tomato Sauce: A foundational recipe in Grinshpan's work, showcasing simplicity and flavor. She encourages using fresh tomatoes, garlic, and chili in olive oil to create a versatile condiment.
Herb-Infused Challah: A creative twist on traditional challah, incorporating fresh herbs and olive oil, highlighting the importance of using quality ingredients for added depth of flavor.
Egg Fried Bulgur: A quick and nutritious dish that showcases bulgur as a delicious alternative to rice, infused with seasonal vegetables and flavors.

Gena Hamshaw's Insights

Nutrition and Plant-Based Eating: Hamshaw, a registered dietitian and author, discusses her book *A Grain, A Green, A Bean*, which emphasizes the importance of grains, greens, and legumes in a balanced diet.
Diet Trends and Protein: Hamshaw addresses the current obsession with protein and how it can sometimes overshadow other nutritional needs. She offers insights into how to meet protein needs on a plant-based diet without becoming overly fixated on macronutrient ratios.

Key Takeaways

Culinary Exploration: Both guests highlight the importance of exploring diverse culinary traditions and experimenting with flavors in home cooking.
Ease of Cooking: Grinshpan's recipes focus on making delicious meals that are approachable and enjoyable, promoting the idea that plant-based cooking can be simple and satisfying.
Nutritional Balance: Hamshaw emphasizes the need for a balanced diet that includes a variety of whole foods rather than fixating solely on protein intake.

Conclusion This episode of *This Is TASTE* offers a rich exploration of food culture through the lens of two influential voices in the culinary world. Eden Grinshpan’s creative approach to plant-based cooking, combined with Gena Hamshaw’s nutritional insights, provides listeners with fresh perspectives and inspiration for their own kitchens.

Additional Information

Hosts: Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard
Eden Grinshpan's New Book: *Tahini Baby*
Gena Hamshaw's New Book: *A Grain, A Green, A Bean*

For listeners interested in food culture and plant-based cooking, this episode serves as a delightful and informative discussion that encourages culinary creativity and nutritional awareness.

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Transcript

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0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. It's almost like a hack. It's like if you take tomatoes and you grate them and you season them with salt and garlic and you put some chili in olive oil, you have literally one of the most flavorful, bright, flavor bomb condiments that you could put on literally anything and make it taste delicious.

0:55This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Eden Grinspan is a Canadian chef and television host based in Toronto, Ontario. She has hosted Top Chef Canada since 2017 and is the author of a very cool new book, Tahini Baby. On this episode, we talk about Eden's career on and off the television. We also dig into her New York City restaurant, the good, the bad, and the lobna of it all, and how she developed her unique recipe style and vibe. I love talking with Eden, and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:30Eden Grinchman, welcome to This is Taste. How are you? I'm great. How are you? Good. I want to ask you, you're in New York for a few days. Where do you go first? What are your spots here? Oh, my gosh. Well, I've lived in New York for almost 14 years. Now I go between Toronto and New York. I spend a lot of time in the Lower East Side. I think that was my neighborhood right when I moved here. And there's something about it that just makes me feel like I'm really doing it when I'm there. so I'd probably I the last couple times I've gone straight to Scar's Pizza and just picked up a slice and I just like quietly eat my pizza in peace and then I shop in that neighborhood oh my god they have everything I wanted more so I definitely head to that neighborhood and then where else do I go I have my staples I'm a big fan of Bread's Bakery I always bring a bubka back to the family.

2:32Wow. It's like really, it's tough. When everyone asks me, where do I eat? I'm like, you know, it's a little bit of a, you have a paralysis when you get that question. Well, let's talk about some more restaurants and just in general talk about food because your homeland, Canada. Wow. I just got back from Victoria, British Columbia. Oh, wow. And I had incredible food there. Yeah. Like, like, no, the food is great in Victoria. contrary to what some people may say. But like, it's fresh in the mind, so I want to ask you, like, you know, Canada has incredible food ways that we never talk about on the show.

3:08Even with Canadian chefs, we just don't get there. Explain why Canadian food is so special. Oh, that's such a good question. So aside from being a cookbook author, I'm also the host of Top Chef Canada. So I get the privilege of getting to taste food from chefs that come all across the country. and um i think you know especially living in toronto my growing up toronto's i think the most multicultural city in the world yeah so that was always something that was like like my proudest like thing that i clinged on to my entire childhood i thought it was just the most it is like such an incredible thing to be a part of so i really think the diversity and the it's not just that.

3:56Like the food that you get feels very authentic to a lot of the cultures that have moved there. And so you get to taste food from all over the world, which I think is so fun. And you get to go on different journeys, especially I'm just taking it to Toronto. Like there are neighborhoods. You know how in New York you walk down the street and you have like a different kind of cuisine, like right next to each other. We have streets like that, but But in Toronto, they have neighborhoods. So you really get a flavor for a culture and a cuisine based off of going to different neighborhoods. And they really feel incredibly authentic.

4:35And people really, like, celebrate their culture there. And I think that that is probably one of the greatest gifts. So you published your 2020 book, Eating Out Loud, here at Clarkson Potter. and we'll talk about your new book, Tahini Baby, awesome title. Thank you. What do you want to say in cookbooks? Like what drives you to write these? You know, the food that I cook, very much inspired by my life, my travels. I really connected with it actually in my early 20s. I had a pop-up in New York City at a place in Williamsburg called Lucy Rouge, And that's when everything really connected because I grew up eating these flavors, spending my summers in Tel Aviv, very Middle Eastern, Mediterranean inspired.

5:26And I had a pop up. I forget how long ago it was. But when I started putting this food out and I started seeing the response, it was a huge like wake up moment for me. And from that from that pop up, I actually ended up opening a restaurant in New York City at a restaurant for a whole. year. Yeah, I saw that in the prep notes. A whole year. Well, if you can't make it a year, dot, dot, dot, dot. You know what? Can I tell you? I am so proud of that restaurant, and I learned so much. And it was truly, as much as it was, you know, it's really sad to close your doors. It was such an amazing learning experience.

6:06And to be honest, the food was so well-received, so it wasn't like one of those things where it was like, it was bad if we close the doors. No, like our rent was so ridiculous. We just couldn't make rent. And that's a common refrain. Exactly. So after like from that experience, I actually sold eating out loud. So because Des, people love the food so much at Des, I was able to sell this book and I was so inspired by the response. And obviously, I think the response was so positive because I was really excited about these flavors, excited about these recipes. And I think what really separates, you know, the way I cook and my cookbooks and all the recipes I put out online is the ease.

6:51I really like to make food that is approachable. I like to make food that is not precious, not pretentious. It's everyday food. These are flavors and techniques and ingredients that you can reach for on the daily. And it's food that makes you feel good. It's feel good food. No, it feels that way when you're reading through it. Yeah. It's like, you know, you have a lot of beautiful grains and salads and dips and beautiful, easy breads to put together. And I don't know about you, but like, I want to sit down to a table filled with all those things. Tell me about Tahini, baby. I mean, the title, it's not Tahini Cookbook.

7:28It's more of a lifestyle and a point of view. And what is interesting about it is it's meat free. There's no meat in it. And I see a lot of books and I love most of them. But I would say when you do meat-free, it can be restrictive. But I did not feel that in this book. I felt really good about the reading through your head notes and I have plenty of questions about specific recipes. But how did you get to your meat-free journey? Well, after Eating Out Loud came out, a lot of the interest was really focused on my salads and grains and veg dishes and dips, as I said earlier. Like people want to eat like that.

8:06People want to have bounty and feel good and not like, you know, eat your meal and like want to take a nap. You want to eat your food and you want to go and dance. So I felt like there was a lot of energy towards that kind of particular cuisine. And my editor actually approached me and said, why don't we, I think it's, why don't you look into writing a vegetarian cookbook? And I was like, I absolutely love that. And also during that particular moment, my husband and I kind of like, we had this like aha moment at one point, like we were having dinner. We're like, we're eating mostly vegetarian now.

8:42And that was nothing planned. We did not plan this. And so I thought there was something to that where it was one of these, we didn't plan it. We didn't feel like anything was missing. We felt like we were eating really delicious, satisfying food and the meat just wasn't a part of it. And so Tahini Baby was born because of that. And I also was excited to go on this journey of like, how do I put together a book of 100 plus recipes that are all vegetarian? And to be honest, it was pretty straightforward and really easy to take a lot of those ideas and ingredients and recipes and translate them into a vegetarian version if it wasn't already that way.

9:26Well, you know, the travel you speak of is a lot. A lot of it is through the lens of Israel. And I feel like you call out many restaurants there, which I love. And also it just pays tribute to a foodways that's really, really, you know, multicultural. And I think you do a really nice job. And, you know, I just love this grated tomato. I want to like segue to one recipe in particular, because if you visit Israel, you're seeing grated tomatoes everywhere. Incredible tomatoes there. And tell me, you know, why is this recipe, you know, so foundational to the book? Well, I think it's the perfect example of the way I like to cook.

10:02And there's like, what, three ingredients in that recipe? Exactly. It's so simple. Simple. It's simple. It's like, it's almost like a hack. It's like if you take tomatoes and you grate them and you season them with salt and garlic and you put some chili and olive oil, you have literally one of the most flavorful, bright, flavor bomb condiments that you could put on literally anything and make it taste delicious. And this is obviously inspired by a Yemen fresh kind of a tomato salsa that you see served with jachnoun and malawakh. And the sauce just like started popping up in so many different dishes and different restaurants.

10:47And even my mother-in-law would put like a big jar of it on her table for Shabbat. And it just went with everything. You wanted to put it on every element of food on that table. So I really wanted to incorporate it and just showcase like there are a couple recipes in this book where I was like, can I even call this a recipe? because it is so like there's a simplicity to it, but there's a brilliance to it as well that like once people make that, they're going to be like, I know I'm going to take this to the next level. Yeah, you're going to have grated tomatoes to put in for a stock. You can use it at the table as a condiment.

11:23You know, it's a really good idea. Do the tomatoes even have to be good? I'm like asking you a simple question. Honestly, to be honest, like I prefer for us to eat as seasonal as possible, but if you're not going to, just make sure that you check for seasoning because, you know, you're putting garlic, you're putting like a nice juicy pinch of salt, you're putting a beautiful olive oil, hopefully. And that will definitely elevate and make it shine. Well, I stopped on the page after I read this head note. I was like, fuck yeah. You give a tribute to Habasta, a restaurant that is, you know, in the shadow of Chou Carmel.

11:56It's a place that I have talked about on the show. I love this restaurant. It's one of my favorite in the world. It's so good. It's so good. And you, so tell us like a little bit about the restaurant because from your point of view, And second, you have this salad of celery leaf and cherries and herbs that I remember vividly from dining there. It's amazing. It's literally, again, one of those. It's like this brilliant flavor combination that wouldn't come to you like naturally or wouldn't come to me naturally, if anything. And I had it and it was like a light bulb moment where I was like, unbelievable.

12:30Just obviously a lot of it had to do with the quality of the produce. And the thing that's beautiful about Habasta, which is a restaurant, it's literally right off of the Shuka Carmel, which is this beautiful market that when I lived there, it's packed. Like, it's not just produce. There's small little restaurants, like hidden little like hummus spots. And my favorite Turkish barakas are just hidden right off the top of the Shuk. Oh, I've been there. Oh, I know exactly what it is. I grew up eating those. So great. So I grew up in that neighborhood because my uncle owns a wallet store that was on Schengen.

13:08Oh, cool. So I literally grew up on that street. And Habasta just became this restaurant that it's a little bit more elevated. They cook only seasonally from the market. They go shop in the market. They cook everything right from the market. And I just think their chefs are brilliant. And I think their flavor combinations are so on point. And they're incredibly inspiring. And I had the salad that was simply like chilies, cilantro and cherry. Fresh cherry. Fresh cherries. Yes. And I took that concept and I obviously like added a little bit more herbs and some celery, some crunch. But that was definitely the inspo.

13:46And I dream about it every day. It's a great idea to just take, you know, fresh, you know, cherries if you're in the summertime in North America. Or you can, you know, take whatever cherries you have. Well, I said you can actually make it in the winter with pomegranate. Pomegranate. I think it's finding a beautiful, tart, bright, juicy fruit. But I think it's really also like you could play around with it even. You could put other fresh fruit. Like I think anything actually would be beautiful. Some peaches in there. Apricots would be great. Yeah, I think it's just a concept of like it could be enjoyed this way in a more savory kind of a spicy way with these herbs.

14:21And also like playing with herbs like not just as a garnish, but using herbs. and eating the herbs and like using full bunches full bunches like take away the lettuce leaf and use herbs like a lettuce leaf I think that concept is also something that I always like just love to do and love to add into my books well you're giving permission to use more than we're used to for herbs I think we get those like little tiny we've all gotten them like those cilantro those like little like you know three inch long plastic it is sad so sad you know you have to buy like 30 of those to make like one tabbouleh.

15:00Yeah, exactly. Go find a grocer that has like full cilantro or full parsleys. Okay, on to chart Brussels sprouts. Now, for some, this is the friends. For others, this is the enemy. Brussels are quite polarizing. I call it out because pomegranate butter, new spin. You have a new spin on a Brussels sprout. Pretty cool. Good job. Well, it's because, to be honest, I wasn't a Brussels sprout lover. And I was like, I can't be this person anymore. Like, I wasn't like, I was mad at myself. I couldn't accept this. I was like, there can't be a vegetable. Actually, okay, there is one vegetable I don't like, and it's green pepper.

15:36We'll get to that at the end of the show. We will go past that. But I was like, I can't be a hater of Brussels sprouts. I know that there's more for me here. So I started playing around with pomegranate molasses, which is like, again, it may seem a little bit more of a unique ingredient. But once you commit to that ingredient and you start playing around with it and you start realizing the power, it's like tart with a little bit of sweetness. It's essentially just pomegranate molasses. Sorry, pomegranate juice reduced until it's like thick and sticky and sour. And it's so delicious. So when I threw that onto the charred Brussels sprouts with the butter, it's just like rich and sweet.

16:18And I add fresh pomegranates on there. And it's just fun to eat. It's a truly delicious dish. And you have all the ingredients. Like for real, you've got your like Palm Wonderful bottle. You can get palm molasses too and use that. Yeah. It's easy to find now. Easy to find now. This is the thing. I find that even from writing Eating Out Loud to Tahini Baby, things have, especially this particular kind of cuisine, it's so popular. Yeah. So you can find a lot of these. I think harder, what you would think harder to find ingredients. So much easier. They're so much easier to find now. It's amazing.

16:49We got the internet. That's true. Amazon that shit. Yeah, Amazon that shit or buy it at the local grocer who does an online retail business. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

17:28That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last-minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low, and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea, Aura Frames. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love. and a gift that can be purchased in no time with a few clicks of the mouse. Aura frames are great. They sent me one to check out and it was really cool and dumb simple to set up. I loaded photos using the app and it was displaying them instantly.

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18:44That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. All right, I'm going to move on to something that I just, the shroom shawarma. Now, I'm like skeptical of doing a shawarma with vegetables because, you know, the shawarma is what it is. It's like a singular food. Now, you have made this a point to say that you do not miss the meat. Eden, please tell me why, because I am still skeptical. You know, mushrooms are like obvious, like they are the obvious choice for the meat, like sub, because there's like an earthiness texturally.

19:30They're a little bit more of a bite to them. So you have that kind of great mouth feel that you would get. And the way I season the mushrooms, it's actually super, super simple. You know, I've seen so many different variations. I really went back and forth on trying to get everyone to throw it on a skewer or to like, you know, create that shawarma style. And then I was like, let's think about home cooks right now. And let's think about trying to get this into our mouths as fast as possible by creating as much flavor and depth. And so I simply marinate these mushrooms and I give them a really nice hard sear on the stove or on a grill.

20:08And just by layering the right condiments, throwing them on the right. Like I suggest putting on laffa. I have an amazing laffa recipe in this book, which is a rocky pita. It's flat. It's got a nice chew to it. It's actually quite easy to prepare. I'm making it on the stove. So I think it's just like one of those fun things. Like I envisioned people would make everything like separate components and then have their friends or family over and like let people make their own laffa and like get their hands in there. What's the mushroom choice for this recipe? I think I used oyster mushrooms. Yeah, it's a good one.

20:45Yeah, I think oyster mushrooms. I also think, like, you can keep them whole. You can tear them up. Give them more of, like, that kind of pull apart, fall apart, like, meat texture that I've seen people do. It's just, I think mushrooms are so versatile. Yeah. But you have to make sure that you, like, sear them nice so they get nice and caramelized. Don't overcrowd your pan. Yeah, space it out. That's exactly right. Don't wash your mushrooms ever. Yeah, like truly, it's scary. But like trust Eden here. You don't need to wash your mushrooms. You know what? I have a mushroom brush, which is like kind of fancy.

21:24I got it at a cooking school in France. And I was like, I'm getting a mushroom brush. You can use any kind of little like, you know, pastry brush you have on hand. Or just use a paper towel. Yeah. And just wipe your mushrooms. Wipe it off. You're going to get any of that schmutz that's on there that you're scared of. But really you're cooking it. Yeah. You're cooking it. You're fine. You're good. All right. On to M25. Great restaurant. Kind of a meat centric restaurant. It's like a butcher shop. Why is this in a plant based vegetarian cookbook? You know, I think that that is, I think that's part of this experience that I also thought was so interesting because a lot of meat dishes really inspired a lot of these vegetarian dishes.

22:03Of course. And for me, I think what I was trying to accomplish with Tahini Baby was, I don't, like I've seen vegetarian books that I was like, this is a vegetarian book. Like I went out of my way not to have any of those processed meat substitutes. Like I don't, well, I didn't really go out of my way. I don't use them. So I was like, how do I capture all of this, like these recipe ideas, these flavors, the smokiness, the juiciness without feeling like, oh, I'm trying to like I'm missing this meat. Because I do think that there are going to be a lot of people that eat a lot of meat that are just trying to like substitute for the, I guess, veg version.

22:47But I wanted these to stand on their own. And I took inspiration from a lot of those actual traditional dishes. And I put my spin on it. And I think, you know, my husband, he's a big meat eater. I have I wanted to write on the back of the book, Edo approved. but he never commented once about I wish this was meat. These are standalone dishes that are just delicious on their own. But I did pull a lot of inspiration from a butcher shop in Tel Aviv. What's that recipe? It's a rais, I think. That's the recipe. And a rais is traditionally like a ground meat, like a lamb that gets seasoned and then it's stuffed into a pita and the whole thing gets grilled.

23:33And like the meat cooks in the pita and the meat gets absorbed into the pita while it cooks. And so I made my own version, but I put cauliflower and mushrooms and there's walnuts in there. And it's so flavorful and so delicious. My husband actually lost his mind over this. It's a cool dish. I can't wait to make it. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Yeah. All right. You add herbs to challah and use olive oil. I mean, bless you. That's like you're brave to like to muck up not in a negative way. Yeah, exactly. But but tell us a little bit about like what inspired you to do this, to cook with olive oil and challah.

24:14Well, first of all, I've seen over the years a lot of people that, you know, inspired me in the culinary industry in Israel. I've been weaving lots of herbs, fresh herbs. And I just loved how like natural and organic it looked and it tasted. And I do think, again, I use herbs all the time. Not just, you know, because they're beautiful and they have a beautiful essence, but they can really impart so much flavor. And a really unique kind of identity to the dish that it's being baked or cooked into. And I just loved, first of all, olive oil is always like my preferred cooking oil. And it adds such an amazing, like obviously depends on what olive oil you're using.

25:05You got to use the good stuff, right? But use the good stuff. And it brings such like a deep kind of richness. It like almost complements that egginess even more. So I found that the olive oil with the challah was like such a perfect combination. And then I weave in like herbs like fresh sage and fresh oregano. And that particular version is fantastic. I brush the herbs with oil as well to get them crispy. And I finish it with a lot of Maldon sea salt. But the concept is also like I wanted to sell the concept. So I give you full permission to go to the farmer's market and grab all the herbs. You can use chives.

25:47You can use chive flowers. You know, you've seen all that beautiful focaccia art. And weave that into your challah and like see what kind of magic comes from it and give it like a new spin. I love it. I follow a couple of Israeli challah braiders on Instagram. Oh, they're like a real art form. Really nice. Yeah. And it's like, listen, challah is like the perfect base to play around with. Why not? It's a beautiful thing. I actually take that recipe and I also give you an option to make the challah kachapuri. Oh, I saw that. That's cool. Kachapuris are amazing. Because the challah makes two loaves.

26:20Yeah. So you can make a challah and you can make kachapuri. Kachapuri. I got two meals there. This recipe really struck me. The egg fried bulgur. Oh, Edo. All Edo. Edo's call here. I mean, it's like you're tossing it. It's like wok fried rice. I'm getting that vibe. With bulgur. Tell us about it. Yeah, my, actually my husband, like I, you know, I would spend just hours sitting and thinking and writing out ideas. And my husband, like, first of all, tabbouleh is one of his all time favorite, like salads, great grain salads. And so bulgars, obviously, that's kind of like the base of that is very near and dear to him.

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26:59And he actually was the one that asked me to create this. He was like, you need to make like a bulgur, like egg fried bulgur, like a rice. And I was like, that is such a brilliant idea. So I made it a little bit more like spring fresh with like fava beans and asparagus. And it is so delicious because bulgur is so fluffy and nutty. And I think it's a grain that needs to be more popular. And so by taking that and like it's such a simple preparation. and serve it with my cheat, that harissa recipe that I have in this book that is so dynamite and literally requires like zero energy to put that thing together.

27:41It is so good. So serve it with some harissa, some garlicky tahini, and you are literally laughing. It's amazing the technique, and I can't wait to make it. I mean, simply make the bulgur, toss it in a wok with eggs and put the harissa and tahini on it. It's so good. Super good. It's so, again, It's another example of how like approachable and like straightforward these recipes are and how bold and flavorful they are, too. And I think that that's really exciting. It's a great collection. So we often, we being food media, folks who write about food, forget about the final recipe in a book, but not here.

28:21And on page 300, you have a recipe for all day fennel and sesame shortbread cookies. Please, you, you know, plead your allegiance to fennel throughout the book. You're a huge fan. You're like the biggest fan. How does fennel work into a shortbread? I love this recipe. You know what? You're going to laugh. But the first time I had a fennel and sesame seed kind of sweet cookie was at Habasta. Oh, yeah. Did I? I don't know if I put that in there. If I didn't, that's too bad. But I had that. I was with my friend and we ordered like, we were like, let's just get something light and sweet at the end.

28:59Like nothing. I don't want to commit to too much. Because you got to go to Art Gelato around the corner. Exactly. Art Gelato, best gelato in the world. Because we're not done here. We're going to go somewhere else. Yeah. So with our mint tea, we got this beautiful cookie and the flavor combination was just so incredible. And I also spent a lot of time in India. and there's a lot of fennel seed, like candies that I've had. Oh, yeah. And I just love the anise sweetness. And this particular shortbread obviously has tahini as it needs to. So the flavor combination of the sesame and the tahini and the fennel, and it's lightly sweet.

29:41It's not too overwhelming. I don't like when my desserts are like overly sweet because I want to eat a lot of it and I don't want to get sick, you know? I want to be able to eat more versus eat less and eat too sweet. Do you know what I mean? Oh, of course I know what you mean. So I'm like, let's not be too sweet so we can have more of it. And the fennel seed, it's this gorgeous, light, anise-y flavor. It's not licorice. Don't be afraid. It's kind of a sophisticated combination. And I think once you have it, it's something that you just can't get out of your mind. And it's special. And like make this, have this with coffee in the afternoon, have this with tea at the end of dinner and just, you know, enjoy.

30:25They're really special. OK, another fennel question. My wife, Tamar, it is like her enemy. Like she. Which part? The seed or the vegetable? All of the above. The entire universe. So as a fennel expert and as a chef, what is the best fennel gateway, recipe or preparation to get Tamar back on the fennel? First of all, make these cookies. I think that might be it. Make these cookies like tomorrow. Yeah. I actually have a bunch of fennel preparation. I know you do. I have this amazing salad. Yeah. Because fennel, the vegetable, is really fascinating. When it's raw, it's got, first of all, it's my kid's favorite vegetable.

31:05I take out a fennel and they're like, just slice it and give it to me, mama. Wow. That's it. They just want raw fennel. Yeah. I've trained them good. You really have. It's more of a conditioning right there because, wow. Like that's their vegetable of choice because I make a lot of fennel salads. Yeah. And it has like a light anise flavor to it. And it doesn't completely break down the second you put lemon juice on it. It actually holds its shape a little bit better. And I have this halloumi citrus and fennel salad with Aleppo honey and mint. Very cool. And you get this like steaky saltiness from the halloumi.

31:41You get that bright, crispy, crunchy, gentle anise flavor from the fennel. The citrus. This is actually the perfect winter salad because all of these things here would just add so much to the table. But it feels like sunshine. It feels like summer on a plate. It also doesn't feel like the fennel will be astringent in any ways when having honey. Exactly. We drizzle over just simple Aleppo mixed with honey. And I feel like the honey, the sweetness, really kind of mellows everything out. And also the acidity from the citrus. There's just a lot. It's juicy. It's juicy. It's sweet. It's spicy. There's a lot happening.

32:23And then you get mint. Come on. It's a great recipe. It's great. And I have a fennel tagine as well. Oh, cool. I think that one's really cool. And it has all those, like, I call them like the cheat flavor. Because you're cooking it down long, right, in a tagine? Well, yeah, we cook it down, but like, you know, I add in obviously olives and raisins and preserved lemons. And again, cilantro, or if you don't like cilantro, you can use parsley. But there's a lot of beautiful spices and you have those like preserved lemons and olives. I find those like cheat ingredients because they're so flavorful.

32:58And there's very few things you need to do once you add them in. I'm like, that's those flavors are just like, you know, they're just great. Yeah, New York Shook does a great preserved lemon company. So good. Great stuff. I also have a recipe for preserved lemons. Well, yeah, you can make it yourself. Sorry. You can make it yourself. Also, I do want to say I have a cheap preserved lemon trick in this book because a lot of people ask me where to get them. So I gave people a really easy way to quickly make it at home. It's very, very good. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story.

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35:39Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. On This is Taste, we ask us about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. Let's go. The best fruit. Cherries. Yeah. Or peaches. A really good peach. Cherries and peaches. I'm hearing two. That's good. Yeah. Sorry. There's a lot more, but I'm trying to fill it in. You already said this in the earlier part of the interview, but I'm going to say it again.

36:14What is the worst vegetable? Green peppers. I just, I can't get behind them. Like, there are very few recipes that I put that benefit from them in my mind. I don't know. There's a block there. Yeah. They're just so bitter. Doesn't add much. No. I just never think, I'm never like, you know what this needs? This needs some green pepper. Even pizza, I just can't hang there. No, absolutely no. No. What is your typical breakfast? I go through phases, but I have to say I can be a creature of habit. I always make a big jar of granola. I go through different kinds. There's always tahini in it. Yeah, yeah.

36:59So I usually do like a seasonal fruit, some really yummy yogurt, granola, maple syrup, hemp seeds maybe. Getting them all. It's nice. Yeah. I'm like, I need to start my day off on the right foot. Yeah. Protein. Yes. Grains into that. The best dessert? Cheesecake. Wow. And you have a great recipe in there. I saw. I have my mom's recipe. Yeah, I saw that. Which is, at this point, I'm basically made of this cheesecake. I'd say it in the head note, this cheesecake. Like my mom, she's not really like much of a cook, but this cheesecake was the thing for us. And whenever she, it's a birthday, she makes a cheesecake.

37:45I used to go to camp growing up and I loved it so much that she would make me my own cheesecake. And she would bring me my own cheesecake. And I would literally like sit in my bunk bed and try and savor it. Like no fridge in sight. I'm literally just in my bunk eating cheesecake by myself with my friends around me. And they're like, I call it my camp cake in the book. It's so cute. But this cheesecake, people have been asking me for this recipe for years. And so I'm thrilled to say that we finally are giving it to you in this book. Into that. Restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.

38:21Oh, yeah. I would have to say it's probably a restaurant in Tel Aviv called Orna Veela. and I just grew up going there and they closed their doors and everything they made was fantastic. They had these like sweet potato pancakes with this like loaded chive sour cream and it was so freaking good. The dairy is so dope. So good. Unbelievable. And I found out later on in life that my husband was a barista there. No way. I know. And I was like, hot. You are so hot now. You were hot before. But you worked at Ornavaella and I am like locked in. It's like you're renewing your vows when you hear that. It was literally the coolest place and he was making like cappuccinos.

39:06Maybe he made me a cappuccino. Have you ever done the math? Do you think you were in the same space at the same time? We do that a bunch and we have definitely crossed paths at least a handful of times. I don't know how I didn't like spot him in a room because he's like 100 % my type. Yeah. But, yeah, we definitely have been at at least like one or two parties. Yeah. Or like bars, restaurants. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? City? Yeah. I know it's tough. I would say Tel Aviv. And I would say my husband and I went to Japan. Mm-hmm. And I would say probably Tokyo. Yeah. I need more time there, though.

39:51Like, for the amount of time I had there, it blew my mind. So I feel like if I had more days there, I would probably never come home. Yeah. And also— Like, in a Top Chef, you know, you guys get to travel at the end of the series. It's part of the gig. Make them take me to Japan. Yeah, do Japan. But I do want to say—also, anywhere in Italy. Yeah. Italy has my heart, too. I'm, like, obsessed. When's the next season Top Chef? Um, we are actually shooting the next season in June. Okay. And it's probably going to come out in the fall. Okay. That's how it works there. Yeah. How long does the shoot? Is it like a couple weeks?

40:32It's a month. Yeah. It's a month. It's extreme. So every time we book a season, I'm like, I'm sorry, honey. Goodbye. Goodbye. Well, because I get literally three days off. Yeah. So, um, and like, it takes two days to film one episode. So the first episode, sorry, the first day is the quick fire. And that's a shorter day. So I get to come home, hopefully for dinner and like homework and bath. And thank God I have that. But then the second day I'm like home at like midnight. It's like they're really long days. You like it though? I love it. You know, I got, I started in the industry in television.

41:07Yeah. So to get to be a part of like such a major show, it's a true honor. Like really love it. Yeah. I got to catch some episodes. I have never watched Top Chef Canada. We've got to get you some episodes. Yeah, I've got to check that out. I'm going to be on Top Chef, their new season. The U.S. version. Because they film in Canada and they asked me to come because I host Top Chef Canada. Obviously, you're going to get the invite. So, but like warning, I feel like my eyebrow makeup in that episode is like next level. Like next level good? Next level, next level. Oh. So I just want you to know, I know.

41:43We're in on this together. You're like preemptively saying that you know and that you can leave the comments in the trash. Literally just know that I know. How does that happen? Like, was it just a makeup chair? You know what? I've done this for so long. It was like on me. It was on me. I have to take full blank. You started tweaking it? No. What happened was they put me in a makeup chair and then they were like, okay, time to go to set right now. And I was like, like, I didn't even get to look in the mirror. So like we're filming. And then I got a glimpse of myself in the mirror after we filmed the first part.

42:21And I was like, wow, those are some brows. Who knows? Listen, the lights. Angles. I just want to say this. Maybe, maybe like the lights are so strong on set. So maybe they look normal. Maybe they look better than normal. Maybe it's the best eyes you've had on television in your history. Maybe this is my Brooke Shields moment. And I didn't even know it was happening. but if it is happening, just know, I know. I'm going to tune in. I'm going to tune in to that episode. Please do. It's a good episode. The food was pretty good. Yeah, it was excellent. And you know, Kristen is unbelievable. Like we had such a great time together.

42:56I'm very good friends with Gail Simmons. So just to get to spend that time with her and I got to finally meet Tom. Yeah. Intimidating guy. So sweet. Oh my God. So sweet. Poor guy. I talked his head off. Like hopefully walked away liking me. No, but he is so nice. Everyone, that entire crew is unbelievable and I felt like it was such an honor to be a part of that. Well, I know you signed like a million documents. You can't even comment on this statement, but I'm pulling for Katrina. I'm just saying, Katrina from LA, I'm pulling for you. We'll see. You're shaking your head very silently. I'm not saying a word.

43:32You are not. You know what? I probably know as much as you know at this point. So, but I do know that it was just it's like that show's amazing like period that show is like they've done such an amazing job so well it's getting more popular by the year which is not how television usually works yeah yeah i know it's like it never happens like that so they are they they have that they have that thing they just got to run with that and the canadians are into it too of course Listen, I think Top Chef Canada is like one of the number one primetime shows in Canada. It's the most prestigious. It's literally the most prestigious culinary competition in Canada.

44:16Oh, for sure. So people come and they are coming to win the title. The prize is insane. Like, it's a really big deal. So when they come, they are like, they're putting their jobs on hold. they're leaving their families like this is a really big moment and and an investment in time and and uh also like their careers like if you think about it it's so interesting because obviously everyone that comes to compete is at the top of their game but what people don't really talk about is like when you walk into a studio you are under crazy lighting you're in a space you've never cooked in before. You're cooking for your idols.

45:01Like these are icons. We get people like Danielle Balloud. We get like the best of the best chefs to come in and judge. And like there's a lot of pressure. And we give them, when I say you have 30 minutes, they have 30 minutes. Yeah, there's no cutting corners there. No. People I'm sure freeze and it's embarrassing. I'm sure people excel. I couldn't do it. No, no, no, no. If they were like cook, I'd be like, what is cooking? I know, right? It's crazy. They're so talented on the show. I can't wait to check out Canada and the U.S. I know the U.S. is going to be coming out soon. Last question, your favorite sandwich.

45:39These are, I don't know why I want to say emotional questions. Well, food is emotional. You know, I really love a banh mi. I always want to have a banh mi. I've also spent, I spend time backpacking Vietnam. I have really fond memories. So I would say a banh mi is definitely like a sandwich that I would like go out of my way to really like search for and eat. Love that. Yeah, I think that's the answer. That's a great answer, Eden. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing.

46:21Jenna Hemshaw, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? I am great. Thank you so much for having me, Matt. I'm excited to chat about your book, A Grain, A Green, A Bean. I love saying that. It's fun, right? Good job with the title. I do not usually, I mean, there was a pretty long stretch of time between my book Power Plates and my last book, which was called The Vegan Week. And so I do not usually like create books quickly. But this one is sort of coming out not too long after The Vegan Week, at least in sort of publishing time. Yeah. And part of it is just because like the title had been in my mind for a long time.

46:57And I was like, it rolls off the tongue pretty nicely. Yeah, it's really nice. Before we get into the book, I just always want to ask, where do you dine out in New York? You live here. I live here and I love eating out. My answers are not like original. I really like Italian food. So I go to a lot of the same really good Italian places that many New Yorkers like to go to. I live downtown. And so I really like Via Corotta. They have a vegan lemon risotto or like a lemon risotto that is vegan as is that I adore. I like going to Pasquale Jones for pizza a whole lot. I haven't heard that one in a minute.

47:33And I really like that choice. Their pizza is fantastic. I feel like, you know, Una Pizza Napolitana is also not far from me. And their like marinara pizza, just their like red pizza is perfection. But I think Pasquale Jones is like a little like it's not under the radar in that a lot of people like it. But I think people don't talk enough about how great their pizza actually is. And they have like a great wine list. It's it's relatively close to me. So I love going there. OK, on the topic of pizza, though, I mean, you're you're a plant based author. Let me ask you about the best vegan slices in New York.

48:07So I am I will say like I'm a little bit more of like I prefer Neapolitan pizza and I'm a little bit of a purist. Like a pizza that's just because a lot of a lot of places that do Neapolitan style have just like a pizza marinara on the menu. And that is like an absolute anchor of their selection. And that is my favorite. Like that would be my platonic ideal of a pizza experience. And I would rather have that than like a slice with vegan cheese or like a plant based slice that has like a bunch of plant based toppings. I would rather just have like perfect dough and perfect passata and olive oil.

48:45But when I do want to slice, Scars is really good. They have a bunch of vegan options. So there's that.

48:54Lucia of Soho also has like – so they have like a red pizza that you can either order in like a whole pie and I will do that and eat it as the week goes by. Or I think you might be able to get it by the slice. I'm not sure. But they also do a really nice job and that's basically just like a New York style slice that's just tomato. and I'm hearing a lot of tomato pies. I mean, do you mess with the plant-based cheeses on pizza? If I made it at home, I probably would. Like if I, because my dough is not fantastic. In order for something that simple to be that good, your dough actually has to be like fantastic.

49:28And I am not a pizza maker. Pizzaiolo. I am not a pizzaiolo. When I make it at home, it's like on a sheet pan and it's fine, it's serviceable. So then I would probably doctor it up with a bunch of vegan cheese and like maybe some, you know, roasted veggies or something to make it more special. But if I'm eating out and the person who's making the pizza really knows what they're doing, I would kind of rather just have the simplest expression. Yep. Let the bread shine. I'm a big bread lover. Tell me, is there a good plant-based cheese out there available? So my favorite is from a brand called Good Planet.

50:04And they make shreds and slices that are olive oil based. I love them. I think they melt well. I think from a sort of like nutrition perspective, I think the nutrition is a little bit of an upgrade over some of the other vegan cheeses on the market. That's for like melty, stretchy cheese. In the realm of more like cheese you would serve with crackers, there are sort of like cashew and almond-based cheeses that are pretty good. I think they're getting actually increasingly great as time goes by. They're a little pricey. So is buying nuts and making it yourself. So sometimes I would rather just go buy it.

50:42Like, and those can be really fun, too. I think a lot of people, when they become plant-based cheeses, the main thing that they're worried about missing is the main thing that they miss for a while. I was in that camp. But as time goes by, I think I sort of missed. I mean, I don't think about cheese all that much. The plant-based cheeses are sort of like a fun novelty for me. But I wouldn't say that I'm like they're not like a huge part of my habit. Yeah, it's not like your go-to after work is a slice of plant-based cavit. Yeah, no, that's not like my snack. That's not your one. All right. I have to ask, I've never had a registered dietitian on the show.

51:21So just like broadly and just from my interest, what is the job? Like what do you do as a registered dietitian? I know there's multitudes and it's not one thing, but what is your job all about? Yeah, there are a ton of different ways to sort of enter the field. I've had different roles as a dietitian. I still actually kind of wear two hats. So I see some clients privately, and there are dietitians who are just in private practice, and that's what they do. And then there's also like a huge number of clinical roles available to dietitians in hospital settings, clinic settings, outpatient settings, across a lot of different kind of like fields in medicine.

52:03So I am also, I work for a hospital system and I'm a renal dietitian. So I work with dialysis patients. So it's really kidney specific. Although a lot of my patients also have other health challenges that they deal with as well as being on dialysis. So I end up seeing a lot of different stuff, which is great and kind of working with a lot of different health challenges. There are also dietitians who work in ICUs. There are dietitians who work in pediatrics. There are dieticians who work in oncology, endocrinology. So in pretty much any part of the health care system, you will find nutrition professionals who are working in both inpatient and outpatient settings.

52:44And then there are dieticians who go into food service, into industry, corporate wellness. I mean, there's a lot that dieticians end up doing. So on the private side, what does that entail exactly? Do you have like a program? Are you doing consulting one-on-one? How does that work? So I don't have a program. I think some dietitians do like they have a kind of I think there are dietitians who have like a sort of a philosophy or like a specific approach that they are offering to people. For me, it's like much more personalized because what you learn is that people's relationship with food is very, very individual.

53:23The things that people are challenged with with food really varies from person to person. And then the changes that they need to make are so specific to them. I could never offer a particular approach to any two of the people that I work with. Everyone's so incredibly different. And they come to me for different reasons. They need different things. Their lifestyles are different. The kind of constraints of their lifestyle or their schedule are different. So it's really different. But most of the time, people feel as though something about their relationship with food is not working. Either that's very sort of like nutritional, like they feel like there is a nutritional gap that needs to be corrected.

54:02Or there's something about the way they relate to food that is kind of tangled for some reason. Like maybe food is making them anxious. Maybe they have a lot of struggles with body image. Maybe they feel as though they love food, but they don't have enough time for it. They need to create a little bit more space in their lives for food and they want accountability as they do that. It could be all sorts of things. Well, I have a bunch of questions about just diet in general. But your own personal journey, just a little bit about how did you enter plant-based, you know, the lifestyle of plant-based?

54:37Yeah, so I stopped eating red meat really pretty young. Never even cared for it much as a kid. Saw Bambi when I was like. Yeah, triggering. And I had also seen Dumbo was also a movie that had like a sort of like a similar effect on me. Does one get killed? No, no one dies in Dumbo. But Dumbo's mom gets kind of taken away to the circus. And I think those were it's you know, I see this with time. I didn't I wasn't processing this consciously as a kid. But I think those were my first experiences of being like conscious of the way we commodify animals. animal welfare as like a sort of that was like the first time I sort of had a firsthand emotional response to these questions of sort of like, how do we treat animals and what role do they play in our society?

55:28And yeah, like I think those movies, those movies had a really big impact on me. In both movies, it's an animal's mother who's affected. And I was very close to my mom growing up, I still am. And so I think that they had an impact on me. And I just, after the Bambi experience, I really did not want to eat meat anymore. And my mom's Greek. I mean, I don't think it was all that easy for her to accommodate it, but she did and was understanding. And I basically just ate chicken, turkey growing up. Like I stayed, I continued to eat poultry, but I just wasn't really leaning much toward meat and never really loved fish.

56:06So it wasn't a big part of my diet. And then when I was in college, I started leaning more vegetarian. And then after college was when I started getting more interested in veganism. I think at the time I was having like a lot of digestive stuff, which was not actually nutritional. I think I was a young person who was stressed out and figuring out life. I had had an eating disorder history that was like carrying over into the present. And I think that I basically was just kind of a stressed out mess. But I had a GI doctor at the time who was like, I don't think you're lactose intolerant, but why don't you try cutting out dairy and like see what happens?

56:41And so I did. And it did not fix my GI problems, but it did make me realize how okay my life was without dairy. And I had, I had just read Diet for a New America and Fast Food Nation. And like, I was sort of, I was picking up that thread of animal welfare that I had been interested in as a young person. And I sort of was like, I'm not eating dairy. I don't eat a lot of eggs anyway. Like I'm pretty darn close to vegan. And I it's not particularly hard for me right now. Why don't I just keep this thing going and like see how it plays out? And I didn't I wasn't wearing the label at first, but I just kind of kept going.

57:22And over time, I did start wearing the label. Do you feel anything differently, like, physically after you cut out dairy? I think if you had asked me at the time, I probably would have told you yes. I think that probably had a lot more to do with, like, the psychosomatic effect of taking. Like, I at the time was much more. And this, again, is because, like, I had an eating disorder history. I think at the time I was much more health focused than I am now in, like, a very particular kind of way. I think I was a little more obsessive about health than I am now. Thank goodness. But I think if you had asked me at the time, I felt like I was doing something proactive for my health.

58:01And I thought that I felt better. I think looking back now, food wasn't really the issue. And I think as time went by, I came to realize that food wasn't really the issue. So I don't think much changed in terms of how my body felt. But I think at the time I thought a lot had changed. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, really, really cool story. And I think many of our listeners can relate that, you know, the plant-based diet and the reason we decide to go on that journey isn't singular. No. And you become more in touch with the truth of it over time. So, again, I think I first got curious about veganism for reasons that I believed were health motivated.

58:44Over time, the thing that has kept me vegan is more ethics, right? Like I would not have remained vegan if I hadn't continued to feel strongly about the ethics of the lifestyle. So that's what keeps me vegan. And I think that is usually the thing with people who have been plant-based for a very long time. That's very often the anchor for them rather than health motivation. But everyone's different. And there are some health-motivated vegans who are vegan for a very long time also and have a great experience with that. Well, let's get to the book. I the title says it all grains, greens and beans.

59:20How are these the building blocks, you know, of of this plant based diet that you that your lifestyle, your your life? Yeah. You know, when I was when I was working on this book, I really thought of it as kind of a return to my roots. It's funny that we were just talking about when I became vegan and started identifying as vegan, because really at the time, like it wasn't as easy to eat out. Yeah. And so like the places I would go were like Angelica Kitchen. It was Sued back. Like the Sued. I know there's still one in the East Village, but it was the one in Soho, like where they had this like lunch special that was like eight bucks and a ton of food and amazing.

1:00:00It was all these places where you would go and a lot of them revolved around sort of like you would pick rice or a grain of some kind. There would be proteins. There would be like beans that they had simmered that day or they would have like tempeh. Angelica Kitchen used to have the best tempeh or like tofu. And then there would be some sort of vegetable in a sauce. And like, you know, of course, I've evolved out of just green bowls on repeat. But like that was a lot of how I got acquainted with what I consider to be sort of the building blocks of a plant based diet. And they are nutritious. They're relatively inexpensive, even in this day and age, like legumes and grains.

1:00:41And they add up to really good nutrition together. And so and I hadn't really grown up eating a variety of whole grains or legumes. Really, I had grown up with some, but like I didn't have a lot of familiarity. And that was really sort of what informed my early experience. You mean like how legumes are cooked around the world and like the different culinary tendencies? Or even different types. Oh, I see. You know what I mean? I think I like I think I had had like black beans or maybe some chickpeas growing up. But like I had not really had different kinds of beans. A pinto? You didn't dabble in the pintos?

1:01:16Not really. Interesting. No, no. And like, yeah, I guess my diet just like hadn't been all that varied or expansive. And so veganism actually introduced me to a lot of stuff I wasn't eating. I know sometimes when people become vegan, it's like a narrowing or or they fear it will be a narrowing. But for me, I was actually eating way more types of things than I had before. Yeah. So I was thinking a lot about places like Angelica. I was thinking a lot about just sort of my earliest vegan dishes at home, which was like I would make vulgar wheat with veggies and like beans in it. And then I would just like put a sauce on it.

1:01:52But I was thinking about those sort of simple homey meals. And I was thinking about how nowadays I have so many more options than I did then. I have all the vegan meats. I have vegan cheeses that we were just talking about. I have way more restaurant options. I can go to pretty much most great restaurants in New York City now and have like a true entree that is vegan as is. Oh, absolutely. It's completely and even fast food too. Oh, totally. Exactly. Like there's fast casual options. I have so many more options now. Um, and yet I still find myself kind of going back to when I'm like stumped on like what to eat or when I'm meal prepping on the weekend and like trying to just get some stuff in the fridge for the week ahead.

1:02:33I'll often just default to that formula of like some kind of legume, some kind of grain. Total aside, have you tried Hay Day? Do you know Hay Day? The canned beans and sauce? Oh, no, but I think I've seen them at Whole Foods. They look really good. They're really good. I love that brand. I'm a huge fan of what they're doing. I think that the pre-made sauces that the beans are in are so delicious. Yeah. I've seen those and want to try them. There are some that come in like pouches. Like a dozen cousins makes really yummy black beans. There's a brand on Amazon, I think, called Bean Vivo. That's like the same idea.

1:03:12And then Wegmans has like sort of like their own version of the canned in sauce ones. and they have like a cannellini bean with like olive oil and red peppers. I think that's going to be key, too, because I like I only buy canned beans. I don't enjoy making them from scratch and I don't feel strongly about like boiling them. But I do think it makes a difference when they come with some seasoning, because that is the difference between you have to like make a sauce of your own versus you can literally just add the beans to a bed of rice and whatever and call it a meal. I agree. I think that it's getting better and better.

1:03:46and shout out to Wegmans. Oh, totally. For our East Coast listeners out there, it's one of the best. I want to talk about the discourse around protein maxing. From a clinical professional, we have lots of thoughts on this show about protein. It really, really is the zeitgeist getting the correct grams of protein. My question for you is two parts. First, is this whole idea of eat more protein good? And the second question is, it seems like our tendency with this protein maxing is to go towards animal products first and not think about plant-based protein because we're not getting the macros that we think we need.

1:04:31What do you think about that? Yeah, it's funny. Protein maxing, this is like what happens when you're not on TikTok. I don't know what protein maxing is. I have like no idea what that means. Great. I'm so glad I'm breaking this idea. Yeah, it's it's no clue. Yeah, no clue. But I assume that just means like trying to get a lot of protein. It says it in the name. OK, OK. Yeah. I do know that we're in a sort of protein focus moment. Protein is having more than a moment. Yeah. Like on everyone's mind. It's the Chalamet of macros. A hundred percent. Yeah. So the question of whether or not it's healthy, like most nutrition.

1:05:07We always want nutrition answers to nutrition questions to be simple and they never are. They're always like super nuanced. It's one of the hard things about being a nutrition professional. Everyone wants you to give them like a good soundbite. And the answer is always like, it's complicated, you know, but not the best for podcasts, not the best for anything. It's hard to message on social media. It's hard to talk to my clients about like, unfortunately, nutrition is pretty. But that's also like the reason you're a trained professional versus a TikToker who is not a trained professional. Right.

1:05:39Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, look, you know, we don't – the RDA – we have an RDA for protein. I would say that the RDAs for macronutrients like protein, carbs, and fat are – they're a little bit less clear cut than some of the RDAs we have for micronutrients like vitamins and minerals, right? Because what we know is that people around the world do eat pretty different proportions of macronutrients. And people seem to thrive with many different approaches. There are people who culturally, like in their culture, they might eat more carbohydrates and get less protein on average. There are also cultures and places around the world where people are eating more protein and fewer carbs, and they also seem to be thriving.

1:06:20So it's very hard for us to know, like, what is mandatory for good health, right? But we do have a general sort of recommendation, which is, and you've probably heard this, 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight per day for adults, right? And then it is a known, a sort of known fact that there are populations of people who will need more. So what we're starting to realize is that for older adults, in order to prevent sarcopenia, we want protein intake to be a little higher. We usually say 1 to 1.2 grams per kilogram for that population of folks, right? And then there are populations of patients in hospital settings or just medical settings who we also know they need more protein.

1:07:03So dialysis patients, for example, generally we say 1.2 to 1.5 grams per kilogram. That's sort of like a high-protein diet that is geared towards someone on dialysis. There are people who need less. So people who have chronic kidney disease that has not progressed to renal failure, they actually need lower-protein diets because that's what's appropriate for their kidneys. So in other words, like there are situations where you might need less. But it's worth saying that in, you know, a sort of medical context, 1.2 to 1.5 grams is considered like a quite high protein diet. I am now seeing stuff online that's suggesting that much more than that is like the only OK thing for people who want to be fit and healthy and thriving.

1:07:46And I would say that that's an exaggeration of what we know and probably unnecessary. I don't know that aiming, if you're a sort of healthy adult who would prefer to aim for 1.5 grams per kilogram rather than 0.8 because you are especially athletic or just because you're especially concerned with maintaining lean muscle mass, I'd say go for it. But we do know that at the extreme side of that, people who are eating extremely high protein diets, especially if they have any susceptibility to kidney stuff, there are downsides to extremely high protein diets. And again, I'm talking about like people who are keto.

1:08:25Right, right, right. Or people who are aiming well beyond the sort of 1.5 gram per kilogram. But yeah, there are downsides. You might end up taking in a lot more saturated fat because you're eating a lot of red meat to make that work, sort of ripping off of the keto example there. You might not – you might end up – all that protein might end up crowding out carbohydrates and vegetables and whole grains and legumes from your diet, which will bring your fiber intake down. That's not so great for us either. And then again, there's the sort of potential consequences for kidney health. So there are downsides.

1:08:57I think the truth is probably that if you would like to, you could go above that 0.8 gram per kilogram recommendation. But you don't have to go too much higher. Yeah. I mean, can we get enough protein with a plant based diet? And I guess the original question was like, it seems like we just assume that animal based protein is like the big capital P protein. Yeah, totally. You know, there is some truth to the fact that we call these HBV proteins or high biologic value proteins. Animal proteins are a little bit easier for our bodies to digest and assimilate. So there's a little bit of truth there.

1:09:36But does that mean that you can't meet your protein needs on a plant-based diet? No, of course not. It means that you might want to boost your protein intake above that standard recommendation a little bit to account for the fact that the plant-based proteins are a little bit harder to assimilate. So I generally recommend that vegans get one gram per kilogram as a starting point just because the proteins themselves are a little harder for our bodies to digest and utilize. So there's that, you know. But aside from that, you can meet your needs through plant-based foods. There are a lot of high protein plant-based foods.

1:10:13I think one of the challenges is that people sometimes need to expand their understanding of what plant-based proteins are. So I know I just wrote a cookbook all about beans. But listen, like half a cup of beans has about eight grams of protein, maybe seven, maybe nine. Whereas, you know, a piece of chicken can have up to 30. Or like zero fat Greek yogurt. Right, exactly. So there is a difference in scale. And I think that doesn't mean that we shouldn't love and rely on beans for protein. But it may mean that you want to also look at other plant-based proteins like seitan and tempeh and tofu. And like there are other plant-based proteins that are more protein-rich per serving.

1:10:56You know, I think tempeh has like 15 or 18 grams per serving. Seitan usually has 18 grams. Vegan meats will usually have about 20 grams per serving. I know a lot of folks don't like them, but all I'm saying is that there are other options that pack a little bit more of a protein punch. So if you're getting a solid foundation of grains and beans and you want to kind of just eat a little bit more protein beyond that, there are things you can try that are pretty tasty and will expand on what you're doing. Are you one of those folks who is down with the vegan meats? Yeah, I love vegan meats. They're yummy.

1:11:30I think they taste good. I haven't eaten meat really in a very long time. And so for me, the texture is a fun novelty. The taste is a fun novelty. I don't think they have to be the backbone of anyone's diet. But again, I think they make it easy to boost your protein intake. I think that from a texture and flavor perspective, they're fun. What I often hear from folks is like, well, no, if I'm going to eat plant-based foods, the point is to like not eat meat. I'm going to just eat vegetables and beans. And I'm like, well, sure, but maybe spoken like someone who will eat meat again at some point.

1:12:03If you're a longtime plant-based eater and you don't plan to ever eat chicken or meat again, those foods fill a kind of craving or a nostalgia that's really nice. I find it really sort of fun and nostalgic to eat them. Yeah, I think you're right. It's definitely that like memory of childhood or wherever it may be having that, you know, that Morningstar Farm patty, whatever. 100 percent. It's really interesting that we're talking about protein because if you walk into any like New York bodega, I mean, how many protein drinks are there? like hundreds. And I want to ask you, like, are these like good, not good?

1:12:47OK, because I'm always challenged because it's a really great way to get protein and have calories if you're on the run, if you're busy, kind of like a meal replacement. We've talked about Soylent before on the show, like that's another one. But like, what do you think as a professional about these bottled protein drinks? Yeah, it's funny because, I mean, dietitians in clinical settings, We're also we're giving people oral nutrition supplements, which is what we call them, but basically like liquid nutrition supplements all the time. In hospital settings, it's often insure or other options there.

1:13:21But so like we're all very familiar with the notion of like a bottle drink. I see them as serving a purpose, which is kind of what you just said. If you're traveling and you're just not eating the way you normally do, you're not as able to pay attention to your sort of the balance of your nutrition as usual. For sure, grab a couple of them. They're great at airports. Or if you're trying to grab like a protein-rich breakfast on the go, I think that's great. I think the rest of the time, to me, just – and I'm not a purist about avoiding processed food at all as far as dietitians go. I'm like pretty relaxed about everything.

1:13:55I think there's a place for everything in everyone's diet. But like I do sort of think when you can default to just sensible food sources of any nutrient, that's kind of better than a supplement. Like or at least it makes a little more sense to me than going straight for a supplemental form. So I usually encourage my clients to try to get their protein from Whole Foods or Whole-ish foods whenever possible. And then if the drinks make it easy to fill in gaps or to deal with kind of like busy days, emergency circumstances, travel, etc., go for it. I don't think there is any problem with them. I don't think they're bad.

1:14:31But I also think that they can become a little bit of a crutch. And it's also good to take a look at your diet and look at the variety of your diet and ask yourself, like, am I finding nutritious, creative, varied ways of meeting my protein intakes in my diet rather than just kind of like leaning on these drinks as a quick solution? Well said. I want to get some recipes because you have some terrific recipes. I love this conversation just talking about the trends of eating, but you're also, you know, a very, very, very good recipe writer. And this book is filled with so many great recipes. And I love that you are thinking about the cake.

1:15:10And we're talking about frikka, chickpeas and herb cake. I love that because I think frittering and caking is a really, really smart way to get rid of a lot of things you have in the pantry. Tell me about your philosophy around patting, caking, whatever you want to call it. I'm delighted that you're asking this because actually for a while, like I had this thing where I was just like really anti-veggie burger. Basically what I would tell everyone, I was like, I don't quite get it. If I make veggie burgers at home, usually the recipes call for like 20 different ingredients. I spend like an hour and a half making them.

1:15:45I bake them. And then it's just this thing that I probably could buy. And I just spent like two hours on it. And it never used to make that much sense to me. And I think that that was like partly the recipes I was using. And I think partly I was just like I was being a little too overly ambitious in the way I was approaching the notion of a veggie burger. I was trying to get it just right. And I think what I realized as I was developing this book is like fritters and cakes are like they're a little bit of a lighter lift than a veggie burger. I think the word burger brings up a lot of really specific expectations.

1:16:18Yeah, like the grill marks. A hundred percent. And like the texture has to be just so, you know, whereas like the idea of just like a bean fritter, it's very open to interpretation. That could mean a lot of different textures and a lot of different levels of involvement. And yeah, if you just mash up some beans with some sweet potato or the like half cup of cooked whole grain that you have left over from a batch of rice or a batch of bulgur or frike or whatever, and you mash them up and you just either pan fry them or bake them, you do have this like nice, you know, firm little package. And they become a great vehicle for those odds and ends.

1:16:58I think, again, there's just like less of an expectation than a veggie burger and you can put a lot fewer ingredients into them and they're great. So I became a big fan. Yeah. What's the saucing? And sauce is like important. I do think sauce is important. If you're going to make something really simple, like if you're just going to mash up some some beans and grains and seasonings, a sauce will probably help to elevate. So I usually have like a batch of tahini sauce of some kind in my fridge. Sometimes it's just a bottle of ketchup. Oh, yeah. Like the sauce does not have to be ambitious. Ketchup, man.

1:17:31Ketchup is so good. It's so good. It's so good. Why is it so good? Yeah. And like, do you have a brand that you go with? I like, no, I usually get like whatever is not too expensive. Honestly, you know, I think people tend to make a big deal of like the sugar and condiments. But frankly, and that's fine if that's if you want to. But like the amount of sugar in even a very conventional ketchup, if you're really having a tablespoon or two, is not astronomical. So I don't think that like the micro differences between brands are all that fast. I've had the like fancier ketchups and they taste really good, but they're also kind of pricey.

1:18:08I don't know that it makes that much of a difference. Oh, yeah. I love that you're not you're you're you're being chill about some of these big questions we had. Like, should I have that ketchup for the sugar? Right. I think I think people get very hung up on like the amount of sugar in like peanut butter or ketchup or a vinaigrette. And I understand. I think it really freaks people out the notion that there's sort of like hidden sugar. But I think you also have to look at the net amount of sugar in these foods. And it usually doesn't add up to too much. And I think that if these store-bought condiments make your life easier and they make food taste better, they encourage you to eat things that are nutritious, you know, like a wholesome bean fritter.

1:18:49Like, you should keep the big picture in mind and not worry too much about the minutia. Let's talk about cooking with tempeh. Yeah. Because for some, they've never done it. Like, it's like you hear about it. And for others, it's like a foundation to protein, as you mentioned. Yeah. Flavor, how do you think about cooking with tempeh? I love tempeh so much. It's probably my favorite plant protein. Seems that way from the book. Yeah, yeah. I really, really love it. It's kind of an acquired taste. I know that the texture and taste are sort of specific, but I think that if you acquire that taste, it's pretty awesome.

1:19:22And the protein is like very, very good. So I love that about it. You know, for years, I was one of those people who was like, no, you don't have to steam tempeh. Some people believe that if you steam it before you marinate it or season it, that will both take away some of the tempeh's natural bitterness and also make it easier for it to absorb flavor and absorb like a marinade. And for years I was sort of like, no, I think that's one of those things people say, but you don't really need to do it. And now I've kind of come around. I have to say I started doing it mostly just to challenge my own.

1:19:59And I was like, I think I'm being a little bit pat and facile about my rejection of this. Maybe I need to try it before I decide that it's unnecessary. And then I started steaming it and I was like, oh, this does make a difference. So I do tend to steam it now and then I'll marinate it. Usually I end up baking it. But a sort of shortcut and like maybe hybrid method of cooking it is you can also simmer tempeh and like broth and tamari before you do anything else with it. And that'll actually like some of that savoriness and saltiness will seep into the tempeh before you do anything else, before you crumble it and add it to a pasta or before you bake it or before you do whatever you're going to do with it.

1:20:40And that is sometimes a little bit less of a time commitment than like steaming it, then marinating it, then cooking it. So that's become my little hack that I do at home. I just kind of simmer it in broth and a little bit of soy sauce or tamari and then I'll do other stuff with it. the book is a grain a green a bean huge fan of this book it's really really fun thank you really really smart stuff last question superiority burger what do you think oh i think it's great although i have to admit i haven't been to the new one i just have memories of the old one yeah it's so near me but when it first opened the lines were like really long yeah it's on resi now it's on resi now and i and i think i was like i was you know i was sort of like oh i don't want to go wait in line.

1:21:23I know you can go at lunch, but I don't tend to eat out at lunch a lot. You're working. Yeah, exactly. So total transparency. I haven't been since before the reboot, but I think I certainly follow them on Instagram and think they're doing really creative, cool things. Yeah, for plant-based in New York, it's one of my favorites. Yeah. And I think they're just like creative and thoughtful and fun. I think they have a little bit of whimsy built into their approach. I like that. So big fan of what they do. Gina Hamschall, thank you so much for joining this to taste. It was so nice to meet you, Matt.

1:21:52Thanks for having me today.

1:22:21guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

From the publisher

Eden Grinshpan is a Canadian chef and television host based in Toronto, Ontario. She has hosted Top Chef Canada since 2017, and she is the author of a very cool new book, Tahini Baby. In this episode, we talk about Eden’s career both on and off television. We dig into her New York City restaurant takes — the good, the bad, and the labneh — and how she developed her unique recipe style and vibe.
Also on the show we have a terrific conversation with Gena Hamshaw, author of the new book, A Grain, a Green, a Bean. We talk about her work as a nutritionist, and how her book cracks many codes when it comes to eating a plant-based diet.
Do you enjoy This Is TASTE? Drop us a review on Apple, or star us on Spotify. We’d love to hear from you.

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