579: Say Yes to Michigan Produce and Spirits with Eli Sussman

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0:31yeah so thatcher's is this really cool michigan artisanal spirit brand and they've got these awesome flavors blood orange hibiscus elderflower and when i come home from work i like to make a single cocktail for myself helps me unwind after a really long shift and so i've been messing around with the blood orange and been making some gin and vodka cocktails for myself, a little splash of lime juice in there, a little orange peel if I'm feeling really fancy. And the hibiscus one's really cool. I've been drinking it, but what I'm thinking I might do next is make like an alcoholic granita that could be used in a dessert, which I think would be really awesome.

1:08And when I'm drinking a vodka, you know, I just want it to be a nice base for where I'm going with the cocktail. So I was using that with the elderflower and also with the hibiscus. And it was just like, for me, I'm just trying to get to a point where it's just a beautiful, well-balanced cocktail.

1:29This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. The meme can be funny, biting, poignant, and oftentimes ubiquitous. Eli Sussman, a talented chef and cookbook author, has mastered the art of the culinary meme with his Instagram account, The Sussmans. Eli is a proud Michigander, and on this special episode, we talk about the state's bounty and how Michigan's sustainably farmed, artisanal spirits brand Thatcher's is channeling the state's produce in their line of liqueurs. On this episode, we discuss how Eli mixes and cooks with Thatcher's, and we go over some of his favorite Michigan restaurants. Also on the show is a fun conversation with Matt DeLong.

2:07Matt leads Thatcher's commitment to organic ingredients and sustainable practices, as well as its unique portfolio of flavors. We talk about the process of flavor development and how hibiscus is actually quite versatile in the kitchen. I hope you enjoy this episode.

2:32Eli Sussman, welcome to This is Taste. How are you, my friend? Amazing. Thanks for having me back. It's good to see you. It's been a minute and we have a lot to cover. And I wanted to really have you in to talk about Michigan. We're both from Michigan, man. Love Michigan. Yeah, it's great. It's one of our finest states. Yes, we're biased, but that's OK. I mean, first tell me, like, what does it mean to represent Michigan as a chef? You are based here in New York City. You have multiple projects here. Your brother Max is back in Michigan. but you really are one of our state's most public chefs.

3:09Pressure? I love that. That is so wonderful that you think that and that people might believe that. I mean, I moved essentially, I moved out of the state of Michigan when I was about 21 years old. So I spent half of my life outside of the state, but I am a huge Michigan stan and I will continue to act as a Michigander for the rest of my life. I feel a devotion and a responsibility to tell everyone I meet about how beautiful Michigan is. And I think until you're there, you don't really realize what it looks like in Michigan in the fall and in the summer and what the West Coast and what northern Michigan looks like.

3:50So I am all about talking about Michigan. I mean, have you been intrigued by this like absolute explosion of Detroit style pizza around the world? I found it in Seoul. I found Detroit style pizza in Seoul. That's so wild. I didn't think that it would take hold as strongly and as quickly as it did. I saw one place doing Detroit style pizza and then all of a sudden there were multiple concepts that were focused on Detroit style pizza. And growing up there, I never considered it Detroit style pizza. There was Buddy's Pizza and there was Little Caesar's Pizza and they were both pizza. But I think that it's awesome that it's getting sort of its moment in the sun.

4:36And for people that are into that style of pizza, I'm happy that they're discovering it as a Detroit style. I'm more of a thinner crust round pizza type of person. So I enjoy Buddy's Pizza, but like it isn't my absolute be all end all favorite. But it's so cool that people are recognizing Detroit for the pizza. Have you done a Detroit style pie at Gertrude's? We don't. We haven't. But when we did, my brother and I had Ed and Bev's, which was this Coney Island concept. And we did Detroit style pizza. So we had for a couple of years, we had this concept at Ed and Bev's that moved around Brooklyn.

5:14It was in Crown Heights for a long time. And we did some pan pizzas there and Max was making the dough. Max is crazy about dough and baking. And that's always been kind of one of his passion. Early Roberta's employee. Early, early Roberta's chef right at the two star review. So he has been sort of always pushing dough as part of his M.O. And yeah, we we were serving Detroit style pizza in New York as one of the earliest. Not the earliest. In like 2015, 2016, there was Detroit pizza that was happening. You know, Michigan, of course, is known for, you know, making cars and, you know, pretty good sports reputation.

5:59I think they've done pretty well, Michigan. Definitely. Lions are actually an upshot. I love to see that. That's unbelievable. But I think the tremendous agriculture is the biggest story. And we've spoken with Michigan farmers on the show in the past. It's one of our greatest agricultural states. And, you know, when you think about Michigan produce, like as a chef, cooking with what Michigan has to offer, what comes to mind? Yeah, great question, because I love being in Michigan in summer and cooking. So for me, it's corn, berries, and my family spends a lot of time together every summer in South Haven, Michigan.

6:39So we've rented a house there every single year. And what we do is we go berry picking together. We go to the South Haven and often we'll stay in Saugatuck and we'll go to those farmers markets and we'll get all this amazing product. This Michigan hall will go back to the house and we'll cook food together. And growing up, cooking together as a family at the vacation week that we spent together, it just seemed completely normal. I thought, oh, everybody goes to the farmer's market and goes berry picking every summer. But then you realize the bounty of Michigan. And then I started getting, you know, produce here and realizing that in a lot of ways, Michigan produce outshines what I can get locally here in New York, even at the Union Square Green Market.

7:27Wow. And so I'm talking about blackberries straight off picking them and realizing that I never even understood what a blackberry should taste like until I went blackberry picking in Michigan. Yeah. And so, yeah, I love cooking with Michigan product. And it's just a Michigan in summer is such a magical time. And what you can get locally so close to your house, even in Metro Detroit, is kind of mind boggling. And people don't really consider it a like a produce capital, but it really is. Well, I love the segue because let's talk about Thatcher's, you know, which is a proudly Michigan, sustainably farmed artisanal spirit.

8:10You know, they're pulling from these farms that you speak about for their spirits. Talk about Thatcher's in general and what draws you to it. Yeah. So Thatcher's is this really cool Michigan artisanal spirit brand. And they've got these awesome flavors, blood orange, hibiscus, elderflower. And when I come home from work, I like to make a single cocktail for myself. Helps me unwind after a really long shift. And so I've been messing around with the blood orange and been making some gin and vodka cocktails for myself, a little splash of lime juice in there, a little orange peel if I'm feeling really fancy.

8:47And the hibiscus one's really cool. I've been drinking it, but what I'm thinking I might do next is make like an alcoholic granita that could be used in a dessert, which I think would be really awesome. So what do you look for when you're adding a flavor to like tequila or mezcal? Like, what do you what do you try to achieve when you've got one spirit, but then you want to add a second spirit? Yeah, I love tequila and gin. And so when I'm adding another component to it, for me personally, I'm looking for something that isn't overly sweet, but is going to contribute something to the cocktail. So I'm not a bartender.

9:21I'm not a mixologist, but I do really love messing around with cocktails. And so I'm always looking for balance and I want something where the flavor is going to come through, but not cover up the alcohol as well, because I want to taste some flavor of the alcohol. That's why I originally bought the tequila or the gin in the first place. So it's a really nice compliment to kind of provide that smooth, balanced, cohesive flavor of a cocktail. And Thatcher's also makes vodka. So tell us a little bit about the vodka that they're producing. You know, vodka, there's like so many brands out here. Why is Thatcher's so great?

9:57Yeah, I think what's awesome about their vodka is that's just very smooth. And I liked how neutral it was. So it was a great starting point for my cocktails. And when I'm drinking a vodka, you know, I just want it to be a nice base for where I'm going with the cocktail. So I was using that with the elderflower and also with the hibiscus. And it was just like, for me, I'm just trying to get to a point where it's just a beautiful, well-balanced cocktail. Love that. So let's think about Thatcher's as not just for cocktails, but for cooking. Because we use liqueurs and spirits, you know, when sauteing, when finishing.

10:38There's a lot of applications. And I just want to tap the brain of a chef how you would cook something with Thatcher's. Yeah, I think that a lot of cool ways that alcohol could be used and that you could utilize thatchers would be, you know, dessert applications, poaching some fruit in the hibiscus. So you could do like a really nice seasonal fruit that you poach in there, like a pear poached. And that would be really interesting. And I think what you're trying to do when cooking with alcohols is obviously you want to cook off that actual alcohol of it, but you're trying to infuse some of that flavor into the product.

11:13So it could be really nice as a baking additive component. You could use it to potentially flavor a sauce that you're using for a cake or a tart. And like I said, for fruit and poaching, it would be really delicious. I love that. But I also just love that we're talking about Michigan product. Yeah. I just I think Michigan products need more shine. And we're doing that right now. I want to talk about your brother Max. You know, he is in Michigan. He's a chef, prolific chef. I hear he's he's on the bagel tip. Everyone is doing bagels around the country. Bagels are everywhere. Tell me a little bit what Max is up to.

11:53Okay. So my brother, as I mentioned, is dough obsessed. and he has installed a bakery in his home. So he is now the bagel pop-up king of Michigan. And obviously there's people doing that in New York, but like he is the guy in Michigan that is doing bagels right now. He's doing sourdough bagels and he's doing them in this super cool way out of his house, which is that you sign up on this website, you place your order, you come to his house on Sunday morning and you can get your order. and he basically hands it out to your car and he delivers it. And he has, I believe it's called a cottage license in Michigan.

12:33So he's allowed to produce out of his home. He has this really cool farm outside of Ann Arbor in Dexter, Michigan. So he has what used to be one of the, they have a farmhouse and what was like sort of the mudroom, essentially, he's converted into a bakery. So this is probably everyone's dream that's listening. but he got an awesome oven and he has a huge mixer and he has a shaping table and he has a speed rack and he's just in there listening to music and podcasts by himself and he's hand rolling all these bagels and shaping them and baking them off himself and then he does pop-ups at a couple places around Ann Arbor and they sell out every single time he can't really actually keep up with production.

13:19That's a good problem. Yeah, it is a good problem. He is sort of a one man team. He has two folks that he relies on for sort of working the events and some production. But yeah, he's he's living his dream of making good bagels in Michigan because in all honesty, Michigan bagels are not where they should be. The culinary landscape in Michigan is tremendous. There's incredible chefs and restaurants on the ground. Bagels are sort of lagging behind still a little bit. I know Chicago has such a great bagel scene and culture. And it's just, you know, across the lake, you know, you've got something that's a state that doesn't quite have the goods.

14:00I'm not sure that people have ever cared about bagels in Michigan that much, which is weird because I grew up eating bagels every single weekend. Sunday, bagel day with the family. And we were a New York bagel family. So right down Woodward, we would go over there and pop over and they're good. And I still like them and I'm into them. But they are nothing compared to a Max Sussman bagel. And he calls it Bev's Bagels, which is our grandmother's name. Oh, great. And so he does all these cool bagel sandwiches and he's really trying to bring a chef mentality to the bagel sandwich. So he's making cream cheeses.

14:40He's curing lox sometimes. he's making turkey for the sandwiches. Like he's really doing it up. Dude, Apollo's got to watch their back. Yeah, totally. There's a new national bagel guy on the scene. I told him, I said, you got to come to New York and throw your hat in the ring. But I think his time in New York has ended. He's happy about Michigan. I don't blame him. I just want to close, Eli. It's been so fun chatting with you and hear a little bit about when you're visiting Michigan. It could be South Haven. It could be Detroit. It could be the suburbs. What are some of the restaurants you enjoy going to?

15:11you yeah well i always always have to hit leo's coney island when i go to michigan i wouldn't say it's a real culinary destination but for me it's one of the most important restaurants in the world and i always have to get a greek salad there and i'm getting it with chicken and gyro meat and i'm going to pita cafe which is right by my parents house uh in oak park they make these great lemonade, frozen lemonades, pita, hummus, baba ganoush, like shawarma. And then I think that I'm trying to check out like a new spot every time I'm there, you know, and there's all these chefs like Ladder Four and Grey Ghost opened a couple years ago, Barda and Selden Standard, the classic.

16:06And I like to see what some of the sort of more upscale restaurants are and are happening on the ground. And then there's the tried and trues like you got to go to Sister Pie. I love Sister Pie. And you got to just support some of these great, cool, small, independent folks on the ground in Michigan who are really working hard and just Miss Kim in Ann Arbor. Like there's a phenomenal culinary scene there and everyone's doing cool, interesting stuff. And I'm never there long enough to see everything that's happening. But I get like one meal and one snapshot. and grab my Leo's and then I got to shoot back.

16:43You got to shoot back and run Gertrude's in Brooklyn. Yeah, exactly. Tell me a little bit about what's up at the restaurant. It's incredible. You know, we're going to have our two year anniversary in June if time flies. And I think we're really settling into what we always hoped we would be there, which is the classic Brooklyn neighborhood restaurant corner location. And we've got this great French bistro vibe going with some of our Jewish flavors woven in. And I'm just really thrilled that the neighborhood has really responded to what we're trying to do there, which is just have a craveable, delicious, accessible restaurant that you can come to once a week, twice a week.

17:24And we want to be an extension of everybody's living room. So I'm just thrilled to be a part of the project and so honored that the neighborhood and that the people of Brooklyn and Prospect Heights have kind of taken us in. what's what's like the the the best seller that's like the dish that everyone's asking for right now there's a couple go-to's that we can never take off the menu as a neighborhood spot you have to keep certain things for folks and so we do a pickle brine chicken with this uh sort of a french honey mustard sauce that is always going to remain and then the ruben burger which is got sauerkraut and Swiss cheese and Russian dressing on a challah bun.

18:04And we do latkes that we hand form every single day with celery creme fraiche and trout roe. And, you know, those things are not going anywhere. People are, they're coming for those items. And so that's what will remain for forever. It's such a great restaurant. I think I've only been once in two years, and that is on me. I'm going to make a visit and we can talk about it on the show. It's great. Well, it was a pleasure speaking about Thatcher's and your love of Michigan, Eli. I hope to have you back. Thanks for having me.

18:46Matt DeLong, welcome. This is Taste. How are you? Great. How are you? Thanks for having me. So where are you coming from today? Where are you located? So, I mean, Thatcher's is located in Holland, Michigan, but I live just north of Grand Rapids. I hung back for a quiet space today. So just north of GR. What town? A small town called Pearson. We live on a lake called Little White Fish Lake. So 25, 30 minutes from downtown. Okay, yeah, of course. I grew up in Kalamazoo. Oh, yeah, sure. I worked in Kalamazoo for two years right out of high school. Little media company there. Lots of video and editing stuff in my early days.

19:23Well, listen, I love talking with a West Michigan guy like yourself. I got a lot of pride. You're the director of marketing at Thatcher's. We had a great conversation with Eli talking about his ties to Michigan and how he thinks about Thatcher's and thinks about Michigan produce. I love that conversation. You're going to fill in some holes here and go through the history of this brand and talk about Michigan agriculture. Tell me off the jump, what is Thatcher's link to Michigan agriculture? Yeah. It's really about real ingredients. there's a lot of stuff out there right now that isn't real, uh, from, from coloring to additives, um, you know, our link to agriculture here in Michigan, Michigan has such, um, uh, a great kind of climate for Michigan agriculture, especially in this West Michigan area.

20:12This, you know, is where I'm from, um, the rolling elevations in the lake effect, the rich soil, um, a lot of farmers turning to non-GMO, uh, offerings and, and different crops that they're growing and, you know, being vetted into this, I guess, this culture in this area of Michigan or Michigan as a whole, really, you know, along with a lot of our partners, you know, we're only sourcing clean ingredients, real ingredients, organic ingredients, nothing that really, really just a respect for nature. And Michigan kind of, especially, you know, I can speak specific to West Michigan, having kind of this unique climate and the lake effect.

20:51I have experience in hard cider making and apple growing here in the Ridge area of West Michigan. Thatcher's linked to that is really just kind of a partner with these vendors and these farmers. And being a customer of these efforts in growing non-GMO and organic ingredients and just being a good support partner for these farmers. It's such a great story that, you know, you work in marketing for a portfolio of brands and you're in the corporate world. But you originally came to the brand as a cider producer, which I think is really cool. What's it like making cider? Yeah, I mean, that's definitely started as a passion project.

21:36Still is super. I'm still super passionate about it, especially when, you know, tying in conversation with the farming and everything. Making cider is a lot of fun. I mean, most of you might know, but it's a lot like making wine. some nuance there. Uh, but the different varieties, you know, our goal is to find some of the more, uh, older heirloom varieties of, of being a little bit more tannic, a little bit more acidic, not, not just packed full of sugar, like, like some of these newer, uh, varietal apples, but, um, making a cider is extremely fun. It's translated a lot to what I'm doing now in, in marketing for Thatcher's, um, you know, the, the cider making process, uh, and the way we approach that is a lot reminds me a lot of what Thatcher's is from a liqueur perspective.

22:21And what I mean by that is just being a clean, organic, only natural ingredients added to these products. So it's been a great kind of parallel. Yeah, absolutely. And let's talk about the liqueurs. Like Eli and I had a great conversation about how he thinks about the flavors and how he cooks with them and how he mixes drinks. But I want to get it from your sense that you've got this range of flavors and it's all over the spectrum. How do you like to make drinks with Thatcher's? Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing for me is it's super easy to use Thatcher's to elevate any drink. It's super simplistic.

23:03I mean, well, I guess personally, you know, I've always been a two, three ingredient kind of cocktail guy on the lighter side. But my wife, family and I have been doing this fun thing since January 1st. It's called clean eating. And we haven't stopped drinking, no. That was supposed to last 30 days. We're still going at it. And so while we're still drinking, we're a little bit more mindful of kind of what we're putting into our drinks. And Thatcher's is just a super easy option because it is clean, but also super flavorful and easy just to kind of spark up that cocktail to get that kind of flavor you're going after.

23:41But for me, You know, elderflower gin and soda with a lemon, blood orange and a spritz. But I'm a big fan of kind of a light margarita with the wide range of flavors that we have. Man, it's so fun to make all kinds of fun margaritas with it. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, playing around with margaritas and liqueurs is modern mixology at its finest. I love that. Let's talk a little bit about the hibiscus flavor. Really, really cool and versatile. um how do you like to to make drinks with hibiscus yeah i mean kind of reflecting on the cider i i love hibiscus i go a long ways with hibiscus originally in the cider making days for me i brought it in um kind of as a color a natural color system and i really realized that there's a lot of flavor floral fruity notes happening here i love kind of a tart drink um so for me using hibiscus kind of back to the margarita thing uh you know with some tequila fresh lime it's one of those drinks i'll go make when i sneak off away from the grill or on the boat i'll make it up i'll bring it back and everybody's like what is that can i try it can i have a sip uh mostly because it's beautiful and then they taste it and it's it's just kind of different you know um to to bring that to those atmospheres of hanging out and having this bright colorful aromatic drink.

25:02Yeah. I love cooking with it too. You know, Eli had some great suggestions of how you can use it in a pan. Have you played around on the range with hibiscus? I've never cooked, no, really with any botanicals. I don't think I've ever played with the cooking side of it. It's always been the beverage world for me. Well, it's just great for accenting, you know, making a sauce for maybe you could just do some fruit in there and cook off the alcohol, but keep the flavor. Eli had a great tip for that. I think your thatchers, your range of flavors can be really integrated into home cooking, too, which is kind of like a sneaky little angle, right, for thatchers is use it as a cooking implement, too.

25:43Yeah, absolutely. And that kind of lends to the wide range of flavors. You know, there's so much you can do, whether whether it's a new sauce or it's a new drink you want to try or if it's just, you know, you've got your favorites, but likely we've got a flavor that fits into that. for any season too. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's, let's talk about how you develop flavors at Thatcher's, you know, in, in your, your corporate, you know, lab, you must have like a mood board, a vision board for identifying flavors that work and you have to, you know, predict years in advance. Take us behind the scenes a little bit.

26:21Yeah. I mean, essentially, you know, we're making very, very small batches before we scale. We're doing a lot of R &D and it kind of goes back to what I had just mentioned. You know, we love having a wide range of flavors because, you know, given any circumstance, any occasion or any season, you know, we like to have those options. So again, it just kind of respect for the natural ingredients. We're not recreating flavors. We're really just kind of capturing the essence of the real natural organic fruits and botanicals. You know, we definitely approach it from a process of balance. That's not overpowering, you know, balance between sweetness, acidity, but still kind of having some complexity there.