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Podcast Notes: This Is TASTE Episode 581 - It's Always Ice Cream Season with Tyler Malek & Pooja Bavishi
Episode Overview In this episode of *This Is TASTE*, hosts Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard engage in a delightful conversation centered on ice cream with two notable guests:
- Tyler Malek - Co-founder and head chef of Salt & Straw, an acclaimed ice cream chain known for its innovative flavors.
- Pooja Bavishi - Founder and CEO of Malai, a South Asian-inspired ice cream brand making waves in Brooklyn.
Key Themes Ice Cream Innovation
- Tyler Malek's Vision: Tyler discusses the creative process behind Salt & Straw's unique flavors, including the idea of "flavor trinities" where flavors are developed to work harmoniously together.
- Imaginative Flavors: The episode highlights unusual flavors such as bone marrow, smoked cherry, and chili crisp peanut butter, showcasing how Salt & Straw pushes the boundaries of traditional ice cream flavors.
Culinary Heritage and Flavors
- Pooja Bavishi's Approach: Pooja shares her mission to bring South Asian flavors to mainstream ice cream, creating a bridge between cultural heritage and modern culinary trends.
- Flavor Profiles: The conversation dives into specific flavors like masala chai and gulab jamun, illustrating how traditional spices and sweets can be transformed into ice cream.
Notable Discussions Ice Cream as a Creative Medium
- Accessibility: Tyler emphasizes that ice cream serves as a safe and accessible medium for customers to explore new flavors without commitment, as they can sample before purchasing.
- Ingredient Sourcing: The importance of high-quality, local ingredients is underscored, with discussions on sourcing unique varieties of vanilla and chocolate.
The Cookbook Journey
- America’s Most Iconic Ice Creams: Tyler’s new cookbook focuses on classic ice cream flavors reimagined, aiming to teach readers the foundational skills needed to create their own ice creams.
- Pooja's Cookbook: Pooja discusses her cookbook that accompanies her Malai brand, featuring recipes that incorporate South Asian flavors while remaining approachable for home cooks.
Insights into Ice Cream Culture
- Seasonality: The guests discuss how ice cream is perceived as a seasonal product, with fluctuating sales throughout the year, particularly in colder months.
- Cultural Relevance: Pooja highlights the growing acceptance and popularity of ethnic flavors, signaling a shift in how diverse culinary backgrounds are embraced in mainstream food culture.
Key Takeaways
- Creativity in Flavor Development: The episode showcases how ice cream can be a playful platform for exploring and experimenting with flavors.
- Culinary Stories: Both guests emphasize the importance of storytelling in their products, connecting customers to cultural and personal histories through taste.
- Future of Ice Cream: The conversation hints at a bright future for both Salt & Straw and Malai, as they expand and redefine the ice cream landscape in America.
Conclusion This episode of *This Is TASTE* serves as an enlightening exploration of ice cream not just as a dessert, but as a cultural artifact and a canvas for culinary creativity. Both Tyler and Pooja are paving the way for an exciting era of flavor innovation, eager to share their passion and expertise with a broader audience.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Your most important customer is your diehard customer, like your super fan. And those super fans fall in love with the B-side recipes. And it's just like a music album. Like, you know, it's like all those radio hits. You're like, oh, really? You're that person. And then you're like... If you're a real fan, you like bone marrow. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like our honey lavender herb, our baking olive oil. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel. Tyler Malek is the co-founder and head chef of Salt & Straw, a cult-followed ice cream chain with shops across the country.
1:06Based in Portland, Oregon, Salt & Straw is known for churning out the most imaginative ice cream flavors around. In their new cookbook, America's Most Iconic Ice Creams, Tyler takes a look at the classics with fresh eyes, then extends into new territory. It's so fun having him in the studio to nerd out on ice cream, from hitting up vanilla geneticists to building flavor trinities in each scoop. Also on the show, we catch up with Pooja Vavishi. Pooja is the founder and CEO of Malai, a South Asian-inspired ice cream company based in Brooklyn and one of the sharpest founders in the ice cream game.
1:40We talk about Pooja's big idea for Malai and dig into her debut cookbook. I hope you enjoy this episode.
1:51Tyler Malik, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you. This is amazing. It's so fun to have you here in New York. How has your trip been so far? I love it here. We just opened two shops here. And so now this has been the perfect reason. I come once a month at least. And it's just, it's literally like the epicenter of food. So there's so many restaurants on my list. I'm so excited. Yeah, I just went by the new location. That's kind of by, I guess, is it Chelsea? Washington Square Park? Yeah, we're kind of like West Village on Hudson there. Yeah, where's the other one? Upper West Side, kind of near the Natural History Museum.
2:27I got to get you to come to Brooklyn. It really feels like a target audience. I know. I love it out there. Well, where, what neighborhood? I'm in Fort Greene and I think we could have more ice cream shops there. But there is a lot of like Van Leeuwen in Prospect Heights kind of area. Which is also beautiful. Yes. Okay. I know. We really want to open up there. We will. No pressure. We'll make it happen. Waiting. We're waiting for the perfect spot to open up for us. Well, I'm happy to have you in the studio. And obviously we're here to talk about your great new book. But I want to give a little bit of context into who you are and the kind of perspective that you're bringing to your work in ice cream and beyond.
3:02So I'm wondering if you could tell me, do you have any food memories from growing up that you feel like really kind of shaped your perspective on food or kind of encapsulate your childhood? So many. And in fact, this book is like, this is like the culmination of so much. um honestly i like to think of my life uh between my two grandmothers actually um one of them they both lived in like a very rural montana uh but one of them was an amazing cook and she she was like classic grandma who would make like i don't know 30 different types of cookies for uh for the holidays you know and so uh slowly throughout my life i would slowly learn to cook different versions of those um my favorite was to make crumb caca which i don't know if you know that No, what is that?
3:47It's like a lace cookie that you roll, which is basically like my first version of making waffle cones. So I was training early. But that and almond brittle, which is one of our famous recipes in the cookbook. You know, different candies and things. And my other grandma, and I say this in the nicest way, she let me make my own birthday cake from a box when I was like six and a half. Or six, turning seven years old. so like she was just she was horrible at baking and cooking in the most beautiful way sweetest grandma way possible and I think you know she like just she encouraged me to keep on learning and cooking and would get me any ingredient I ever dreamed of and so having that dichotomy I think was so fun to grow up with because I just learned the basics from from grandma Malik and I I'd, you know, just have this free kind of playground to cook from Grandma Ballantyne.
4:45I think it's nice to have that balance because some people who are so good at cooking and baking, they don't leave room for anyone else to ever do that. Right. So you needed to have the kitchen that you could make your own box cake in. Yeah. And what were you doing before you were doing ice cream? Well, ice cream, we literally started Salt and Straw when I was in culinary school. Yeah. So we started as a push cart and it was supposed to be just like a summer thing. We were like, this is so fun. We started having fun with creating flavors. And this is 2011 in Portland. So, I mean, if you'd ever been to Portland, especially in like that era, it was like it was the episode.
5:19Like we were the most famous food city in the country. And for very good reasons. We were doing there's like just these amazing chefs that were up and coming. And I get to go stage in the kitchen with, you know, Andy Ricker at Poc Poc. And then the next day, go to our ice cream cart and make like, you know, these really cool Isan Thai flavors of ice cream, you know. And so like that became my method of learning and kind of trolling the city for the best of the best and, you know, replicating what I learned through ice cream, which in many ways is kind of the foundation of this book. You know, this idea of learning as a foundation to then create.
6:02Yeah, I really picked up on that when I was reading it. I think in your introduction, you talk about going to Stump Town Coffee and tasting coffee there. Yeah, back in the day, I'm sure it must have been the most exciting place to be drinking coffee. How did that experience expand the way that you were thinking about flavor? I mean, it was so fun. I remember it was my go-to place before and after culinary school. I'd go there and just hang out and take notes. And the first time I went there, I was sitting and ordered a cup of coffee and was completely overwhelmed by the different varieties and types of coffee and the ways they can brew it.
6:39And then all of a sudden, there's like, I don't know if it actually happened, but there was like this bell that went off because they all of a sudden, everyone stood up and started doing a cupping, which was crazy to me. It blew my mind. All of a sudden, they steeped 12 different coffees, and then there's these people in curly waxed mustaches would sit and slurp their coffee to get this flavor. And it was incredibly pretentious, but also so eye-opening to what food and flavor can be. And if you really like dig deep into that, like deep nerdiness of an ingredient, one ingredient, coffee, there's so much to learn.
7:23And I fell in love with that. And that became my life mission to learn, like grasp that depth of knowledge around coffee and chocolate and vanilla and caramel and like every ingredient that we ever use in ice cream. It just became so fascinating for me. yeah I really see that playing out in the flavors at salt and straw and I I mean this in like the best and nicest possible way but you guys are freaks yeah ice cream flavors that you do bone marrow smoked cherry chocolate potato salad like yeah did you always have this ethos of wanting to push kind of the conventional boundaries of what an ice cream flavor would be I mean in some ways it doesn't have anything to do with ice cream it's just the it's like the reality of this ingredients we're faced with or the themes that we're taking on, it becomes something so much bigger.
8:12And ice cream just so happens to be like the coolest vehicle in the world to make, to create in, in the food world. Like not many people realize this, but ice cream is so freeing and it's also so safe for a customer or a guest to kind of walk in and taste. It's really like we have the only food medium in the world, in the universe, where you actually get to taste everything before you buy it. And then if you taste everything, you don't buy anything, it's totally fine. You know, like, can you imagine going into like, you know, like, Gramercy Tavern and be like, can I just have one spoonful of that bone marrow dish?
8:46I'm not going to buy it, but I just want a spoonful. You know, that would be ridiculous. But as salt and straw, like we encourage that. And that is actually part of like the experience that you get. And so it becomes something bigger and grander and, and the way the ability to be creative is so it's so unique and it's so freeing. Yeah, I think you're right that it's such a nostalgic and comforting experience for people eating ice cream and also the fact that you can try a flavor and then go back to your default chocolate if it actually isn't something that you want. Maybe like from the perspective of a guest, you have the ability to push yourself more.
9:25Yeah. And we design our menu that way. Like it's 100 percent like we'll design flavors that are just made to sample. Like in some ways I'm like, I hope no one buys this, usually because it's so expensive. But it's also just like it's fun to kind of push people's limits. And sometimes that'll be the only time someone has ever tasted real wasabi in a wasabi and green apple sorbet. Or maybe it's this one time we get to kind of convey this really unique story of this first generation maker from San Francisco who she moved from Mexico City and started her edible bug business. You know, like these are stories and flavors that I think we can kind of like Trojan horse our way in to your mind and like kind of convince you and convey these these are perspective on the world.
10:12I love talking about where these ideas are coming from. I'm curious, how do you you come up with themes? You have set flavors. Sometimes they cycle in. Like, is there a rubric that you guys use collectively to think about what the menu is missing or what you want to add in? Yeah, I mean, it's all. And this is, you know, again, getting back to the book, like it's it's there's always a foundation you have to have. I think you can't I don't think it's possible to create without boundaries and creating the boundary is actually the hardest part of any creation process, to be honest. Like it's really easy once you've created boundaries.
10:46You can it's so easy to, you know, especially in ice cream to think of different flavors and et cetera, et cetera. But we're creating a boundary of what you're going to what you're going to stick to. and in the book it's creating your chapters right um is the hardest part and ironically it's the same when you're writing the book like once we decided what our 10 chapters were going to be the book like felt like it just wrote itself um but that back and forth with our editor you know it was exhausting and beautiful and um and thrilling and by far the most critical part of all of this. So the book is called America's Most Iconic Ice Creams.
11:25What made you want to write a book in the first place? And how was the process of it for you? This is my like food nerdom all in one book. And so it's dense, but also so fun. I mean, what we've realized was we all cherish some of the greatest flavors of our childhood. And we broke it down. We kind of rated the 10 greatest ice cream flavors of all time. And what I believe is if you can get those foundation recipes down, you have credibility to create whatever you want from there. And so we, really the whole book is teaching you these 10 recipes and we're going to teach you like the science of why it works, the history of that flavor, that like everything that goes into this one chocolate flavor and if you learn that then you can start testing out some of the more unique flavors like a chili crisp peanut butter chip cup ice cream with you know once because you know all the science of why the chocolate works with that flavor and how to melt it and etc you know or the you know about using cocoa nibs and things like that like it's it's and all of that makes sense because you have your foundational education.
12:40And so that was the idea. Like use these 10 amazing recipes, French vanilla, you know, freckled, chocolate chip, chocolate chip cookie dough. Create our versions of it at Salt and Straw, which are the best versions. Like costs are out the window, skills, you know, like it's just like the most beautiful version of all of those recipes and then start playing with it. So talking about the playing part, I imagine maybe this is just me, but it's hard for myself to think about going to the Lance to make my own ice cream because there are people like Salt and Straw and so many other ice cream stores or even in the freezer section, like you can buy good ice cream without making it yourself.
13:21So why would you make the case for making your own ice cream? Well, just to layer on that, just to pile on, it's also usually more expensive to make it yourself. Right. Cream is so expensive. Takes forever. No, I here's the deal. uh what we tried to invoke in this book is this idea of like being creative in the moment and um and i we kind of talked about this like ice cream is one of the most beautiful mediums to do that um and really my dream of dreams is that you can read through this book and just have fun reading it and then have the foundation to know that you can create whatever you want like it's these are just like blueprints but the reality is ice cream is so much more like savory cooking than any pastry like you don't have to think of the science quite as much if you think if you've got the blueprints then you can make a delicious ice cream and we think of it i think this is kind of a weird analogy but i think of it like soup a lot like and this is just bear with me because it's kind of funny but like if you've got a great stock like a chicken stock or mushroom stock and then you go to the farmer's market and you find like these amazing vegetables and maybe a really good meat, um, you can make a soup on the fly and it's going to be fun and delicious.
14:33Right. Like, and it's the same with ice cream. Like we want you to have these foundations. Like we have a great stock recipe. We call it our ice cream base. You can make large pots of it and freeze it and thaw it in your microwave or whatever, you know? Um, and then when you're ready to thaw it, you know, get whatever you're inspired by in the farmer's market like fresh strawberries and roast them a little bit and mash them into that ice cream you've got the most beautiful strawberry ice cream you'll ever dream of and so that's really the idea is like how do you use ice cream as this like moment of inspiration when you when you're out and about yeah I love the soup metaphor I think it's a really good one and I think it goes into this idea of yeah you can buy canned soup at the store you could go to a place and get it.
15:17But if you make it yourself for somebody, like it just feels cozier and better. And I, you know, have friends who get into ice making ice cream making phases or they do that all the time. And when I go over to their house and eat the ice cream that they've made, it does hit better than something maybe that they got at the store. Cause I know that they were thinking about the flavors they wanted to have in it. Or sometimes there are flavors that you want that you just can't find at the store. Oh yeah. Or it's like really cool chocolate that like they, They only make, you know, you know, 10 pounds a week.
15:46And you're like, I got my hands on this or this really cool. And, you know, those ingredients that you find out there that are special to you, special to your neighborhood. I'll never be, you know, like we're trying to find those at Salt-N-Straw and make those into ice cream. But we can't use, you know, we can't find all of them. So I think that's where it kind of comes down to you to be able to create. And also have like freedom to test things out and make mistakes. Because I think that's also part of it. Like people thinking of ice cream flavors is probably the funnest activity you could ever think of.
16:16And so you should have free reign to do that yourself. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story. The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.
17:03The full program is available at montrealenlumiere.com. Presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last-minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea. Aura Frames. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love. And a gift that can be purchased in no time with a few clicks of the mouse. Aura Frames are great. They sent me one to check out and it was really cool and dumb simple to set up. I loaded photos using the app, and it was displaying them instantly.
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18:23That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Yeah, I want to talk more about some of the really creative flavors that you guys do at Salt and Straw, because I think it is what sets you apart. And you mentioned a little earlier that sometimes you make flavors that you just think people are going to try and not even eat. Are there any flavors that maybe you thought were too out there, but actually found a customer base or on the flip, like something that you thought was going to have mass appeal, but actually was one of those taster flavors?
19:04Oh, I mean, this is like, that's a good question. And also really hard to answer. Yes, on all of the above. I think what I, we have a theory, I have a theory in the ice cream making. And I think this can apply to every restaurant menu that the, I call it our B-side recipes are the most important on the menu. and that's because like your most important customer is your diehard customer, like your super fan. The, you know, 5 % people that are like out there telling everyone, all their friends to come visit. And those super fans fall in love with the B-side recipes and it's just like a music album.
19:51Like, you know, it's like all those radio hits, you're like, oh, really? You're that person? And then you're like - If you're a real fan, you like bone marrow, yeah. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, like our honey lavender, our Bikini olive oil. Yeah. And so the B-side flavors, those recipes are, in my opinion, the most fun to create. And that's where we put the most love into, to be perfectly honest. And some of those are, like, incredible. I think, you know, when we go through the list, like, some of my favorites that we've made are even some of the most simple. We did a smoked cherry and a vanilla ice cream, and it just came down to finding the right variety of vanilla, which there's hundreds of, you know, there's thousands actually of varieties of vanilla if you really go out there and look at the world.
20:38And so finding the right variety of vanilla and finding the right variety of cherry and right level of smoke and all of that, it's just once you kind of get that to all line up, it can be one of the most, you know, you can create things that you would never dream of. Yeah, I love thinking about how sourcing fits into everything as well. Do you have people on your team and their whole job is to just go out and find and taste all of the vanillas? Or how do you narrow in on the specific ingredients that fill into the recipe? Yeah. I mean, for us, it'll go a few different ways. But we do have our test kitchen in Portland, Oregon, where we just we're constantly trying new ingredients and testing them out, putting them in ice cream.
21:19um we make it's not actually we test ice cream not unlike what you would do at home we've got an at-home machine and we'll just make one pint at a time and maybe make five to ten pints of ice cream every single day so we're constantly testing new ingredients and flavors um i think for us like it um i i'm in love with the idea of finding locality in your flavor um and sometimes that can create really unique perspectives. And I think chocolate is a really good example. Like if you go across the country, there's a lot of different people roasting chocolate. And chocolate is still so small compared to coffee that you don't have quite the diaspora of styles.
22:05Like if you go to Miami, for example, there's this really wonderful chocolate roaster called Esquisito. And her style is so unique. And she's, you know, the types of beans she's bringing in are so unique versus like if you go to Portland, there's a guy from Ecuador. His company is called Cloud Forest. His style of technique of roasting is so unique. And so you can get like, you could look at, you know, even beans from the same region of chocolate, cacao beans from the same region in this chocolate and they'll taste completely different. And there's something really, really cool about that. Because when you fold that in ice cream or you, you know, drizzle it on top as a fudge or whatever, like it's there is like you can taste that that you can taste Portland in it.
22:55You can taste Miami and you can taste Seattle like there's something so, so special. But you just have to be ready to like taste that. And you have to know how to like be careful with those ingredients or how to find them. Hearing you talk about fudge that you drizzle on top makes me think about. I feel like there's a dichotomy between the ice cream places you go to that have like mix in heavy flavors versus the places that have lots of toppings that you put on top of it. And I think that adding the topping on feels like maybe like second wave ice cream as opposed to like the era we're in now where like the ice cream makers are kind of controlling the mix in for you a bit more.
23:32Does that resonate with you at all? A little bit. Yeah. I've never really thought about it. I know. My brain is expanding as we talk. No, you're right. I think, I know, I guess this is going to sound really vain, but it's the equivalent of going to a restaurant and asking you to put salt on your dish, I suppose. I'm like, I made this ice cream very particularly to be composed. No substitution. I'm not that strict about it. I love it when people try to create their own combinations and things like that. But at the same time, each flavor, it's designed to be perfect by itself. So that's fair. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense.
24:10And it makes me think about trends in ice cream. I feel like ice cream has just evolved so much as a medium over the past 10 years. How much do you think about, oh, like lavender, for example, as an ice cream flavor being something that people are looking for versus just off in your own world doing your own things? Oh, lavender is like basic now. I remember writing that recipe 15 years ago and being like, this is so cool. And we were creating new ways to steep lavender. And now it's on every single menu, which it should be. It's a really delicious flavor and really unique in and of itself. Yeah, I mean, that was, to be perfectly honest, that was the biggest challenge with writing this book because we had to break down.
24:51Like, I remember sitting there with Francis Lamb, my editor, and I was like, okay, here's what I think are the 10 greatest ice creams of all time. And he's like, oh, I disagree wholeheartedly. And so we had to duke it out. What were some of the draft picks you guys were fighting over? Do you remember? Well, one of my favorite battles was green. Not only the flavor, but what do you call green tea ice cream? Oh. And so for me, I grew up on the West Coast. And, you know, I've spent my life going to different parts of Asia, China, and Japan. And I call it matcha ice cream. Yeah, me too. And it's that bright green with matcha powder.
25:33um versus east coast new york they're like well no it's green tea ice cream and it's usually steeped green tea rather than the matcha powder i feel like matcha has one actually you know yeah oh that was a half hour conversation just about that um another one was uh perlines and cream i was i love that flavor i i didn't realize that's so west coast versus pistachio ice cream We were talking about like, how do we, what's the most iconic nut based ice cream? And they're like, oh, pistachio for sure. And I'm like, we don't have pistachio on the West Coast. I would say Rocky Road. Rocky Road. That was the third.
26:10But is that a trademarked ice cream? No, you're okay. Okay. Yeah, don't worry. People swoop right now. I don't know who these trademarkers are, but we just ignore them. No, I'm just joking. That's so interesting. I feel like corn ice cream is one of my pet favorite flavors that has become a thing in Which one? Corn. Corn. Like the vegetable? Yeah. Not like kettle corn, but just sweet corn ice cream. Not like the band either. But it's hard to find. Restaurants will do it on their menus here in New York. But in a packaged form, quite difficult to find. Yeah. It's really hard to make. It's actually not.
26:43It's in our first book. So you'll have to get the set. Yeah. When it came time to, you know, do a second book, how much were you trying to expand versus like narrow back on themes that you were introducing in the first one? I think for us, like the first book was this introduction to Salt-N-Straw. And we wanted to transport you as if you were in a Salt-N-Straw. And at the time, we had only had shops in L.A. and Portland. So it was really this fun opportunity for people in New York and across the country to feel like they were visiting Salt-N-Straw. This was a completely different, like for the second book, we wanted it to feel like we were transporting you into our test kitchen.
27:20and you can all the imagery the styles the the recipes they're designed to feel like you're plopped in and you're testing recipes with us and that makes it really fun and energetic and especially for foodies it should it's just you know there's you could spend days with this book if somebody like listening to this was getting a book and picking it up for the first time are there any recipes or chapters you would recommend they start with i know it's written in order but I think people don't necessarily read things in order. Yeah. It was designed to not read in order, actually. Oh, amazing. That was my dream.
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27:56I wanted to, like, my hope was that someone would just open it up and just, like, want to spend time on whatever page they landed on. We're both just picking up our copies and flipping through them right now. and it should feel like I mean my hope is that like to be honest you should be able to flip through it and just like be captured by you know enraptured by the colors and like whatever again whatever like catches your eye you should be able to stop there and just like fall in love with the with the copy and the imagery I opened at random and I landed on strawberry tres leches which does really appeal to me yes I love that one so much And that recipe is beautiful because the way you soak the cake, it just turns like it becomes the perfect texture to kind of dollop into your ice cream.
28:45That whole chapter is all about berries and specifically strawberries because, you know, there's there's so many different techniques and ways to use a berry. And the reality is it's one of the hardest, you know, you don't really understand. You don't appreciate how hard it is to make a good strawberry ice cream because it's so juicy and watery. like um so to be able to cook it down to the right texture and flavor it's uh there's a lot of magic that goes into that i suppose that's a good place to start i'm yeah i'm looking also you know it's nice that there isn't just ice cream recipes in here but you know later on the chapter is this wild foraged berry slab pie yeah which you could eat with ice cream or you could probably turn into ice smash it into your ice cream yeah pie milkshakes that's another good ice cream thing Yeah.
29:31Yeah. Yeah. Which is basically, yeah, just ice cream before you can have that fresh out of the ice cream machine. How do you feel about soft serve? I love soft serve. We used to have a soft serve shop in Portland and it was COVID casualty. It was so sad. But it's it's a different world altogether. That's what I have to that's the one thing I have to say. It's it's not designed to be as high in fat. It's not designed. It's designed to be served a lot warmer. and so you can get brighter or like you can get fresher more intense flavors but it's not as nearly as unctuous maybe and it's harder to kind of create stories out of I suppose I don't know if that makes sense I think it makes sense from like an ice cream developer point of view as someone who eats a lot of soft serve I feel like the swirl also is so important in a way that when you're scooping, maybe there's more into an ice cream scoop than I would imagine.
30:30But I think to me, like the swirl, the soft serve is more difficult to perfect than just scooping ice cream out of the pint. Oh, it's so hard to swirl ice cream or soft serve and to get it right. So it doesn't look like dollopy, like a, yeah. You know that we have Mr. Softy, like the trucks that do soft serve all over New York. And there's one that I go to all the time, but I look and see who's in it. And if it's this one guy, then I have to get it because he's so good at swirling. But if it's his cousin, then I like, I can't go. His cousin? I think they're cousins. He referred to him as his cousin.
30:55It could be like metaphorical, but he's better got to get him in line because the swirl is just not as perfect. Maybe I would love to be retrained by him then. Yeah. The swirl is really hard. I'll like take a video for you next time I see him. Thank you. It's too cold right now. No, I think, you know, for me, like there's so many different styles and techniques. I mean, even just starting like if you the first chapter is vanilla. and that's a great place to start because honestly like just understanding the depth of what this one ingredient can and should be i think is at the heart of the book and you know we do that 10 different times um but vanilla in particular is probably the most overlooked ingredient in the pastry world especially um it's one of the most complex flavor compounds ever um and people just roll over it you know like it's plain as vanilla or they've had like bad vanilla yeah and so or fake vanilla yes which is vanillin and that's only that's a chemical synthetic chemical version of one of the 220 flavor compounds that's in real vanilla so that's where you like diving in and learning that and then understanding like oh there's different ways to extract the flavor there's different ways to to use it um like you know in researching for the book i talked to this a vanilla bean geneticist that has like started looking into the different styles.
32:21It's just, there's the history of vanilla is so, so fascinating. And it really, it's, you know, kind of getting down into that, like learning about that and understanding, oh, there's drastic differences in quality and how they dry it. There's drastic differences in flavor and how it's grown and what varietal they're using. It's so fascinating. And just understanding those basics can transform the way you make your vanilla ice cream. I love that someone is a vanilla bean geneticist out there. This is my new dream podcast guest now, I think. It's so interesting. Yeah, I'll introduce you. Please.
32:56So we're talking a little bit about ice cream bases, base flavors. I want to make you like play a little bit of favorites. I'm curious if you have like a favorite ice cream base flavor right now. Oh, it changes all the time. It doesn't have to be forever. just like this specific moment in time um i'll take uh salted caramel oh okay i just i love salted caramel um i you know like it's one of the first things i learned in pastry school to cook to make a good caramel um and it's it also is a good like kind of you know just a good moment to look at what flavor trinities do for you um so this is one of the most famous flavor trinities in the pastry world or the first thing you learn in pastry school, this idea of a trinity is the fact that salted caramel is not just salty sweet.
33:51And this is like the biggest mistake people make. They're like, I love salty sweet. You're like, no, no, no, no, no. You love the salty, the sweet, and the bitter of a good caramel. And that's what makes this magic. Because if you didn't have the bitterness, it would just be completely one, this linear flavor profile. But that bitterness completely transforms when you add the salt because the salt opens up your taste buds and helps you taste the bitter qualities even better. And the sweetness actually like holds it all together and kind of wraps your tongue in this little present. And so that's what a good caramel is.
34:25And once you know that, then you know when you make your caramel at home, you need to burn it. You have to burn it. You have to burn it so hard. Literally until it's like smoking and your fire alarm is about to go off in your apartment. you know and then you know that you know like that's how what is kind of creating this epic flavor you know you're this trinity burning it and getting that bitterness um and so that's again like i just knowing that background and understanding what that flavor trinity does completely transforms how you make salted caramel ice cream or salted caramel in general or even when you're tasting caramels at the store it'll transform how you think about it um and then it also opens your mind to like what are these other flavor trinities that you're you kind of start like mapping out in your head yeah in my head right now i'm trying to think about another flavor trinity that's in an ice cream flavor oh yeah i mean um you could have like we've got i i mentioned one of my favorites is our um chili crisp um peanut butter cup so you've got that like uh you know the spicy and the sweet and the nutty um with that peanut butter and the the chili crisp and that sugar that's kind of in it.
35:36That sounds like my dream ice cream flavor. I love chocolate peanut butter. I don't know. I'm trying to think about if that is a trinity or if that's just two together, but it has that kind of savory sweet going on right now. Chocolate, yeah. Yeah, the chocolate peanut butter and then that chili crisp. It's like so good. Or chocolate peanut butter and a heavy dose of salt. Like chocolate and peanut butter by itself, it isn't actually like that good unless you add either sugar or salt. Yeah. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, that's good. It's also one of those things that even though I normally like a nice chocolate, I think sometimes when you have the less good milk chocolate, it actually tastes better with the peanut butter.
36:10That's fair. Yeah, yeah. Maybe it's because it's sweeter. Yeah. I'm looking for Trinity to justify my preferences, but maybe I don't need to. But now it completely changes your perspective. And like, it's always, even at cooking now, like use that philosophy, because as you're cooking, you know, you've got these two ingredients here. Like, what's the third thing that sometimes people won't even notice, but that third ingredient that'll just kind of completely uplift this and marry them together. So I'm curious, after working in ice cream for so long, how is your appetite for ice cream? Do you still eat it in your spare time?
36:41Oh my God, I love ice cream so much. It's the greatest thing. It's the greatest food in the world. I don't know if you can tell. I get really excited about ice cream. You've been beaming this whole time. Yeah, yeah. Do you like snack on it or do you eat it at work only? So we have this thing at work in our kitchen. So our kitchen, we have a whole block in Portland, Oregon, inner southeast. If you ever come, you're welcome to visit. And we make all our ice cream there. And so every morning at 9.15, we have what we call pint cuttings and tub cuttings. So we take a sample of all the pints and tubs that were made the day before, and we cut into them and taste it.
37:22And so every morning I'll have, depending on how much testing I need to do, up to a pint of ice cream. Wow. It's a lot of ice cream. Your bones must be so strong for that calcium. I know. A lot of protein. So we eat ice cream every single morning as a job. And I love it. It's the best thing. I'll never get tired of ice cream. I'm glad. It makes me feel like there's hope in the world that you can never get sick of ice cream. You could be happy. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request?
38:03A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code.
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39:57That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. So to close today, I want to play a lightning round with you. So I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions where you're going to have to pick your favorites. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. Some of them might be easier than others. I'm bad at this kind of stuff. It'll be great. Soft serve or scooped ice cream? Scooped. I'm sorry. Your favorite ice cream on Salt and Straw's menu right now? Oh, sea salt with caramel ribbons. The trickiest ice cream flavor to get right at Salt and Straw?
40:35Fish sauce caramel. ice cream it's really tricky balancing all of that yeah it's in the book too so you can go on that journey with me yeah your favorite ice cream topping uh hot fudge but like really really good hot fudge and maybe a little bit of hazelnut in there so you get like a homemade like nutella your favorite store-bought ice cream that isn't your own haagen-dazs don't say de leche or vanilla your favorite non-ice cream dessert oh i've been eating so much bingsu right now oh yeah game changing okay wait say more about it what do you like uh green shaved ice yeah it's like so refreshing and i i just got had a strawberry and sweetened condensed milk two days ago i was like i'm over the moon you can eat it and just feel like light and happy and I like how this is so ice cream adjacent still also it's still frozen it's no no it's ice and cream so it's very different there's a space um a restaurant that's not in your neighborhood that you wish could be magically your neighborhood restaurant this is I I have so many favorite neighborhood places um I gotta say we were talking about this last I I genuinely am in love with Coco Doc.
41:58It's like the fried chicken. I could eat I want that every single day for breakfast. Okay, now a restaurant in your neighborhood that you love and you think more people should go to. In Portland, Beaverton, Oregon, if you know you know. They just opened, it was at the old Dooku Place. See, I'm really speaking to the To the locals. They opened First Avenue Pocha which is like this Korean pocha restaurant that's like yeah I'm sorry I don't know why I keep on talking about Korean food I was just like on my mind right now okay finally a fictional food scene like from a movie or a book that you wish you could eat in real life I think the uh like this is gonna sound sad but a Harry Potter one of the feasts at the I know that's basic why is that sad oh it's just basic you know actually people never bring this up really yeah and I've read all the Harry Potter books so I'm always waiting for someone to talk about the endless feasts where you can have basically everything.
42:55I know. And it's like coming out of the table. Yes. And who knows? It could be elves making it downstairs. But it is the house elves. We find that out in the second book. This is becoming a Harry Potter podcast. But I think you should own that answer. It's a good answer. Thank you. If you were going to supply ice cream to Hogwarts, what flavors would you do? Oh, every flavor ice cream. You're right. They could just have it magically coming through. Yeah. Yeah. And you never know what you're going to have. It could be like earwax. Or it could be salted caramel. Who knows? Yeah. Okay, I think honestly I can't end anywhere better than there.
43:29Tyler, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you.
43:36Pooja Bhavishi, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? I'm so good. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk about your ice cream. I used to live in Carroll Gardens and you were just up the street. Delicious. Malai is like amazing stuff. Thank you. I'm so glad you've had it. Absolutely. And I think you have a lot of fans in the media. And it's not because you're, like, cool with media people. It's because we like good things and original ideas and well-executed products. And you've done all that. I love it. Thank you. Yeah, I think that Malai is really good. Yeah, it is good. Well, before we get to the ice cream chat and talk about Malai's big plans in your new cookbook, I do want to know.
44:15You know, you live in Brooklyn. You're all over the place. Where are you dining up right now? Oh, man. Well, I live in Clinton Hill, and so I have a lot of neighborhood favorites. Lorena is a very much my go-to spot. I go to Sisters for a drink, Par Laika. But I just had friends in town last weekend, and my go-to spot for taking people out is Bonnie's in Williamsburg. It always hits. It's so, so good. Yeah. I mean, what a Brooklyn through and through restaurant, Cantonese American. And I'm vegetarian and it's like it's just so vegetarian friendly. It's I can't say enough good things about it. Yeah.
45:01Well, let's let's talk about Malai. I mentioned you have your retail spot in Brooklyn. You have a place in D.C. You're going to be opening in Philly very soon. And I mean, your CPG business is really taking off. You can order nationwide. You can order nationwide. Yep. But take us back a little bit when you founded Malai. You know, what was your goal with bringing, you know, definitively South Asian flavors to ice cream? which, you know, there's places, of course, around the country that have done this in the past, but not with your ambition and certainly not with the range of flavors offered. What was your what was your big idea then?
45:44Well, I mean, I think it's a couple of things. One is that I love desserts. I have a very big sweet tooth. I always have. I love the hospitality behind desserts that it will always make someone happy. and so I knew I wanted to be in the dessert business I was an enthusiast and a hobbyist but I'm also first generation Indian American and that was a very defining shaping part of my life it always has been it still continues to be and I realized that these flavors these Indian flavors and spices and flavor profiles were always a little bit otherized they were very much exoticized and I just thought that it could be more mainstream.
46:27There were so many people that enjoy these flavors on a daily basis. There's so many people who are curious about these flavors and, you know, like the quote unquote ethnic aisle in the grocery store was changing. Then why wouldn't it be as, why shouldn't it be as typical and normal to pull a pint of masala chai from your grocery store freezer as it is a pint of cookies and cream? And so that, I wanted Malai to kind of change change the game, change the way ice cream is perceived in this country. And really lead the way in that. And so, like, it's very cool to see people who haven't grown up like me or have had the same kind of upbringing to enjoy Malai and for Malai to be, you know, the neighborhood scoop shop for them in a way that, you know, that, like, that TCBY was for me.
47:18Oh, I mean, shout out TCBY. I grew up on that stuff. The country's best yogurt. The country's best yogurt. What a statement. I mean, when I moved to New York and it was Tasty D. But I was always like, that's not TCBY. It's not TCBY. I love that reference point. Let's talk about the flavors that you're bringing. I mean, you get like the spice was the Daba in Indian cooking and you have these incredible spices that are used throughout the world. They're not like just in India or South Asia. And there's something about these flavors that connects with people. It's like they have a transportative quality to them.
48:02Is it cashmere chili or is it, you know, turmeric or I mean, so many different flavors. It's around the world, but you're bringing them into ice cream. And I have to think that, you know, you don't have to know that flavor at all to get like, this is really exciting. Like Rose is exciting, which has got to be on the business side, a huge opportunity. Well, yeah. I mean, one of my favorite things to this day, Malai turns 10 this month. So we have been around for a while. And one of my favorite things to this day is when someone thinks that they're not going to like a flavor just by the name of it.
48:44And I'm just like, give it a try. Let's play this game, right? Let's see if you actually don't like it. And, like, it's really interesting how spice transforms when it's in dairy or, like, even non-dairy flavors, right? And how fat can really make the, you know, butter fat and dairy fat can make the spice bloom. and it takes on this like new nuance and like the sweetness with the ice cream. And like obviously ice cream is something that everyone has a reference point to. Everyone knows what ice cream is. And so to start to have that as a starting point is really easy for us, right? Everyone knows what ice cream is.
49:24Everyone loves ice cream. And then we're just trying to introduce them to new flavor. And it's really, really cool. Like I said, like rose with cinnamon, roasted almonds is actually our most popular flavor. It's the only flavor we don't take off menu. And it's very, very fun to see people who are just like, oh, you know, like rose reminds me of my grandmother's perfume or I know it's going to be too floral. And I'm like, just wait, just wait and try it. And like with the cinnamon that we add, with that nuttiness. And then again, like it's with the dairy and the sugar, like it mellows it out and it gives this really like nice sweetness.
50:00And yes, there's a floral quality, but it's really balanced with the spice that's in there, too. Well, I love your ice cream because like Van Leeuwen, it's not too sweet, in my opinion. Thank you. I mean, I hope that comes off right. I mean, for me, I hope that's a compliment because I think ice cream, especially the industrial brands, it's like sugar is what you get first and then you get the flavor. Yeah, well, I mean, ice cream is, I can be a very big nerd about this. Like there's a lot of things that go into ice cream making, including like the amount of air that we turn into it. The amount of butter.
50:33Yeah, exactly. The amount of butterfat. And it took a while to get it to the place where it is now. And I'm really glad that you enjoy it. I do. And I think like when you're talking about these, the way that dairy reflects the spice. When I go to your shop or when I try your flavors, it's like freshness is what I think about. Because, you know, like peanut butter and chocolate is great. I'm a huge fan, obviously, but like it's not fresh. It's like boom. And sometimes, many times, especially after a meal, you want that lightness, that freshness. Yeah. I mean, that's really interesting that you put it like that.
51:09I mean, I obviously love peanut butter and chocolate as well. And we have. You have it. Yeah. Yeah. We have different flavors of that. I mean, I think that the freshness in our product really comes with like the local dairy that we use. Yeah. Like we use, you know, Hudson Valley dairy. It's really like the cows are on the farm that like where we make the ice cream. Like it's the freshest that you can get. But also we don't use eggs in our product. And so that eliminates a little bit of heaviness that's often found in ice cream. And it like it melts really quickly in like this really nice way, which leaves like it's a warmer temperature, which you can get more flavor.
51:48Should I get more nerdy about ice cream? I think you're getting into the weeds in the best way possible. Let me ask you, let's get a little bit more into the weeds. How do you think about building a flavor? You know, what makes a great flavor? Because you've got these, you know, you've got jaggery, you've got these classic Indian pastries that you're basing it on. You know, how do you come up with your big ideas? Yeah, I mean, I think more than anything, what makes a really great ice cream flavor is balance. But I will also say without any of those flavorings, without the saffron and the rosewater and the cardamom and all those spices, what you need is a really good base.
52:29And what makes a really good ice cream base is a beginning, middle and end. And a lot of ice cream that you can find on the market, not like I think that there's really great artisanal ice cream out there, but like the, you know, like the ice cream. The bigger tubs. The bigger tubs, let's call it that. You'll notice that when you eat the ice cream, it just kind of dissipates in your mouth. It just kind of goes away. The flavor as well as just like the product just like kind of goes away. And like what you want from an ice cream is that you want to you don't want to be hit with sweetness. You want to be you want to taste the dairy and you want it to have this finishing flavor as well.
53:13Almost like this like cooked caramel taste to it. And that's what makes a really good flavor because ice cream, you may not know this, but it's frozen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And because of that frozen quality, you start losing the taste the more and more that you eat it. So you still want that really satisfying feeling. And to get that, you want that beginning, middle, and end. Yeah, the first bite is always the best. The first bite is always the best. Always the best. Yes. Which is why, you know, you got to have like some fudge in there. Because you got to like set it. That's just, sorry, I'm like, we'll get to like some Sunday talk later.
53:51Always here for Sunday talk. I have to take this advantage to ask you about a specific flavor profile that I love, but I don't get. and it's fenugreek. Please describe this flavor. I would love to. Okay, great. So fenugreek, you can find fenugreek seeds and then you can also find the leaves. The seeds is what we use in ice cream. To be very transparent, I grew up with my parents, my mom soaking fenugreek seeds in water and making me drink that water every day because it was supposed to make me healthy in some way. Doctors may disagree. No, it's like a very, very big Indian thing to do that. And like, you know, it may or may not have worked, but it's not tasty.
54:45It has this really metallic-y, bitter taste to it. But put fenugreek in dairy and it transforms. So cool. And it almost, it tastes like burnt sugar. It tastes like maple. And it still has those bitter notes, so it's a little bit more nuanced than just straight maple. But it's so familiar. You taste it and you know exactly what that is. And then you get that little bit of bitterness and you're like, huh, that is a little different. Yeah, and it's so, so good. Well said. I mean, I've always wondered about that flavor profile. And I think burnt sugar is really smart. Yeah, yeah. But it's like a little more umami maybe, savory.
55:30Yeah, there's a little savoriness to it, which I love. We just had a coffee cardamom and fenugreek soft serve and people were into it. Talk about the jaggery flavor. I think jaggery when you, you know, enjoy Indian pastries or desserts, I guess, or visit, you know, Indian grocery stores. You see it everywhere. Yeah. I got to believe jaggery is a pretty foundational flavor for you. Well, jaggery just as an ingredient is a foundational ingredient for me. It's a sugar that you can only really get in South Asian regions that grows there. It's brown sugar, but it has this texture that's super soft, which is super unique.
56:10And I grew up eating like a piece of jaggery with my meal because you always have something sweet. Very cool. Yeah. And so it has this really, you know, cooked flavor, molasses-y. and obviously so good in ice cream. And so we incorporate into our soft serve. There's a jaggery ice cream recipe in the cookbook. Yeah. And it has a little bit more nuance than just white sugar. There's like a fruitiness to it. It's really delicious. It's very unique and very delicious. Well, we'll get to the cookbook, but one more question about the business of Malai. You know, you've got Location New York, you've got D.C., you've got Philly.
56:50You know, how big does this get? And I mean, how do you think about building your retail business with ice cream being really popular? Some may say saturated. Some may say there's too much ice cream. I'm not one of them. I think you can always have more ice cream. But like it's a challenging business to expand. But you clearly have your eye on the prize. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I have big, big plans for Malai. Tell me about them. World domination. Really? Okay. I'm into that. I mean, here's the thing. Like, I, you know, I think that I think that I'll talk about this country. I think this country is ready for something like Malai.
57:30I think that I think this country has been ready for something like Malai. Right. Like, I think that, you know, to to build this to build this company to Malai as not really good Indian ice cream, but just really good ice cream. Right. Like that's a big shift in how we're thinking about things. And I think that that's really important. And I think that that's really it's really cool to see us thriving in markets like Brooklyn and D.C. and Philadelphia. And, you know, we are a dual market product. We absolutely have our, you know, our South Asian fans of the product, but we have our non-South Asian fans as well.
58:08And we are trying to, you know, market to both of them and to become as mainstream as possible. And I think that that's really cool. And I think that, like, I think that, like, I love that Malai is leading the way in that. Yeah. What was the second part of the question? Well, what markets are you looking at to expand into outside of these three? I mean, it seems like the diaspora, there's concentrations in, you know, certain cities. Everywhere. Yeah, right? I mean, honestly, there's concentrations of the diaspora everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we have, you know, with all of that said, with all of our big goals in mind, you know, we are still a small business.
58:49And, you know, we have limitations. We have resource limitations. And so we will get to those goals as like in due time. We are a growing business and we've grown steadily in the past 10 years. But we're not like we're not one of those zero to 100 in one year kind of thing. You know, like we're steadily growing business and we have our eyes set on big goals. I can't wait to follow up. I'm definitely going to be keeping track of the story. What do you do in the winter? You have three locations in the Northeast. Oh, my gosh. We just. What do you do? We're just, you know, looking at our clocks, waiting for summer to come.
59:28The winter's hard in the Northeast. Yeah, I mean, you saw it, yeah. But also ice cream is a seasonal product. It's not necessarily a weather-dependent product. So even in warmer climates, the, you know, sales of ice cream goes down in the winter. Oh, yeah, in California, January is pretty much the lowest, right? Absolutely. I mean, people buy ice cream seasonally. They don't buy it in the winter, no matter what the climate is, right? But that said, you know, it's – first of all, we – as we're growing, we see more traction in the winter. But second of all, you know, because it's a seasonal product, you know, it's like 65 degrees outside right now.
1:00:10And I'm seeing people in shorts outside. And, like, they're, like, laying out in Central Park. And people are so ready for the warm weather to be here by this time of year. I mean, your Brooklyn location is popping right now, I bet. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, exactly. And so because it's a seasonal product, it's around this time of year that we like start getting busy, even if the weather hasn't turned quite yet. Yeah. And so that's really exciting, too. So we just we honestly in the winter, we're just waiting for the summer. We do hot drinks. You ride it out and you do some hot drinks. You probably do a chai.
1:00:41I mean, honestly, our Q4 is still pretty strong because we have a really big launch around the Bali, the Indian New Year. Yeah. And so our shipping really picks up in the last part of the year for we do a big launch around the valley. We do ice cream pies for Thanksgiving. And then we have a holiday launch as well. So it's really January, February, which is hard on anyone, to be honest, that we just need to ride through. You just ride through it and then hope for a really hot July. Correct. Do you sell more as it gets hotter? For sure. I mean, what's really interesting is that there is we do a lot of sorbets in the summer as well.
1:01:22So there is a period, you know, you know, when like that those two weeks in July where it gets like over 100 degrees, that's when our sorbet sales really skyrocket. Like it's just like it's people want something really refreshing. But yeah, otherwise, the correlation is absolutely the hotter again. I mean, very cool. I mean, everyone, when it's 99, you want to just at night, you just are 95. You want to go get ice cream. Absolutely. All right. Pooja, top three flavors on your boards. First of all, that's really hard. I know, but you came into the studio. You got to come to play. OK, so our most popular flavor I already mentioned is rose with cinnamon.
1:02:04Yeah. I also love our masala chai. Oh, yeah. The reason for that is that it's just like I just feel like it's my mom's recipe of masala chai. It's like the family blend that we've been using for generations. Where's your family from? Gujarat in India. Oh. So, you know, we really like our sweets. Do you know it? Have you been? I have not been. I use a word that I try not to use. I'm kind of obsessed with Gujarati cuisine. I was in Mumbai last July and I went to a Gujarati restaurant in Mumbai. Shri Thakur. No, I don't know. Shri Thakur. This whole Thali set up. How cool. No one really says that they're obsessed with Gujarati cuisine.
1:02:52I mean, I'm just having this one meal and meeting a couple folks and just talking about living on the show. Absolutely want to go there. I love it. Well, I'm obsessed with Gujarati cuisine. Yeah, yeah, right. Tell us a little bit about it. Well, it's really, I mean, you don't really see it here. It's not like flashy in any way. It's like very, yeah, it's like very much like a bread, thal, vegetable. Like that's a very basic meal. It's not, it's a whole wheat bread. Like it's not, it's not like there's not much decadence around it. It doesn't have like the Kerala pop to it. Yeah, it doesn't have like, you know, yeah, like the beautiful coconuts of Kerala.
1:03:32or like the beautiful curries of North India, right? Or the sweets of Bengal, right? Like it's a little bit more low-key, but it is my comfort food. Yeah, cool. And the thing, like the defining factor, like kind of like the thing that, you know, people make fun of with Gujarati cuisine is that Gujarati is like things sweet. Yeah. And so they even put sugar or jaggery in like their vals or their, you know, like any kind of savory dish. Yeah. Because we are sweet, savory kind of people. So that's why like even with like my meal, we would have like a piece of jaggery on the side. Exactly. And that really tracks Hotel Vasavada.
1:04:20Yeah. I just saw her the other day. Incredible book. Yes. Desi Bakes. Love that book. So, yeah. Her recipes are so great. Yeah. Really, really great. A little bit of a tangent, but I love that. I'd love to learn from you. I'd love to learn more about Gujarati cuisine. I'm just very, very interested in it. Let's take a trip to India. Yeah, I would love to go there one day. All right, let's talk about the cookbook. Yes. I mean, the first question is, like, you're selling a lot of ice cream, so why do a cookbook and have people make it at home? Like, what's the impetus to do your own cookbook right now?
1:04:54Sure. um one is it fits in with our major goals right like that big goal of like wanting to change the way that we're like thinking about things these things that like you know these ingredients should be a part of your pantry um when you're making ice cream you should think about making a coffee cardamom ice cream as well as maybe a chocolate ice cream right um and so i just like I want it to become a part of the lexicon. Very cool. So that's, you know, that's, it's a part of our goals. So that's number one. And number two, why shouldn't you make it at home? For sure. And well said, like you want people to understand what you're doing.
1:05:36And the best way to do it is to write a book about it. Yeah, totally. I mean, obviously, like there's like some really beloved Malai flavors in there. The Masa Chai Rose, both of those are in there. Orange fennel, mango and cream. And like these are the recipes that I like started off with. Like these are the recipes that I made in my apartment when I was first thinking about Malai. But also there's like some, you know, some recipes that never made it to the Malai menu that were stuck in my head or, you know, like that I thought could be turned into a fun dessert. So it's more than just what we offer in store.
1:06:12So if you're a novice ice cream maker or you have never tried it and you're interested in making ice cream, how do you get there? I know you have your base recipe, which I really like. You've got your recipes, but what's the gear required? How are we doing it? Yeah, I think that's the one thing about ice cream making that can be really intimidating is that you need special equipment. So there are a lot of recipes in the book that uses a condensed milk recipe. So basically all you need is a can of condensed milk and some heavy cream and the flavorings to make ice cream. And you don't need an ice cream maker.
1:06:49Word. And so that's really helpful in, you know, if you're intimidated by like, also you might not have the counter space for an ice cream maker. I totally get that. And so, yes, some of the recipes do require an ice cream maker, but a lot of them don't. And a lot of them you can even buy ice cream to make it into whatever it is that we're— Wait, how? So some of the recipes use melted ice cream. Wait, what? So, okay, do tell. Yeah, yeah. How'd that work? Well, so I think melted ice cream is a really cool ingredient to replace, like, things like custard. Like, we have an orange fennel French toast where you use melted ice cream for, like, the custard base for the French toast.
1:07:28Yeah. We have a melted ice cream cake. Yeah, there's a lot of things you can do with melted ice cream. I think Ina Garten, when I interviewed her one time, it's like melted Haagen-Dazs vanilla is creme anglaise. I mean, exactly. I mean, it is. Yeah, it is. She uses it. It's like her jam. Smart woman. Yeah, she is. And as are you. When you say you don't need an ice cream maker, what are you using then to make it? So what you'll do instead with the condensed milk recipes is you'll need an electric mixer or you'll need a really strong arm, which is also cool. Muscles. But you're basically whipping the cream.
1:08:05So like to emulate the ice cream maker, which is basically whipping in air, turning in air to make the ice cream light and fluffy. You're whipping in the air yourself. And so you want to, you know, beat the cream until it's like whipped cream consistency and then mix in condensed milk. That will be your sweetness and then your sweetener. And then you'll put in any of the spices or flavorings that you want. And then all of Malaya's, as you probably know, you know, Malaya's ice creams are very balanced. We use salt in every single one of our ice creams. And so you'll also want a big pinch of salt.
1:08:43And then you freeze it. And then you layer it into your freezer safe container and you freeze it and you get like those same kind of like that texture, the ripple. And you can scoop it out and it's the same. Absolutely. Yeah, it's the same. I am like I have your book. Thank you. And I'm going to do that. Okay. I'm going to do that. Let me know how it goes. I will. I will. It's really cool. I really like Gulab Jamun. I think. Who doesn't? Such a good dessert. Those little balls. Yeah. Syrupy. There's syrup. I mean, it's basically like three desserts in one. It really is. Donut soaked in a sugar syrup.
1:09:17I don't know. There's a third dessert there. It's like the perfect combination of texture and sweetness. Yeah. Right. I mean, I really, when you can get a good one, I've had a few, you know, around the country, you know. But you've made it into an ice cream flavor. Correct. How does that work? Well, it's, so we, I made it into an ice cream flavor in the cookbook. It's something that I've been wanting to do for a while. And the reason why it's taken this long to create this flavor is because gulab jamun has all of these very typical spices found in South Asian desserts. It has cardamom. It has saffron.
1:10:00It has rose water. And you have to really balance that perfectly to get that to emulate gulab jamun, right? Right. It can't just feel like just like spices. So it took a while to perfect this recipe. We do use all three of those spices in this ice cream. My mom's gulab jamun was always a little saffron heavy. And so that's how I know it. And so the ice cream is also a little bit saffron heavy, but it does like finish with rose water. We put actual gulab jamun donuts into the ice cream. Of course, of course you need that texture. So it like has that, you know, like gulab jamun is like, it's like, it's soft.
1:10:41dare I say a little soggy. It has to be. It has to be. It's like saturated with syrup. Totally. And so we needed to get that in the ice cream to really get, you know, the total feel of gulab jamun. I mean, like, India has got this incredible skill for, like, the soggy, like panipuri. Yeah. Well, panipuri's not soggy. Oh, it's not. It's crispy. It's super crunchy, right? Sorry. It shouldn't be soggy, but it's like the play of liquid and crunch. 1000%. I mean, I guess Exactly. It's like, it's so unique. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. And you have to like time it perfectly. Yeah. Really, really amazing cuisine.
1:11:21One of my, I mean, absolute favorites. Like, I'm so happy that you've told us about your philosophy here. So to be clear, you can order the ice cream online and it ships nationwide. Correct. Yes. We sell nationwide through Gold Belly. Great. And we ship to all 50 states. Amazing. So you're a Gold Belly. I've gotten some great ice cream vehicle belly great spot alright a few more questions the Faluda Sundae I want to know it's a recipe in the book you're not just doing pints but you're doing like full ice cream desserts for sure and tell me about Faluda which I love as well yeah so so the Faluda Sundae actually has like a has like a story behind it so when I first started Malay we were selling at fairs and markets all over New York City and ice cream, National Ice Cream Day was always a really big day.
1:12:14It was like the day that like we, everyone, like just like, you know, brought out all the stops. Like they wanted to sell their best and finest ice cream. And this was my second year of Malaya. It was 2016. And I decided that we'll do a riff on Faludha. And Faludha is this dessert. It's a Persian dessert that has, you know, come over to India. And the Indian version, at least my family's version, there's so many versions of everything, is that you have like basically a rose flavored milk. And on the bottom of that cup, you have vermicelli noodles and basil seeds, which is very similar to chia seeds.
1:12:52And then you put a scoop of ice cream, usually a vanilla ice cream on top. It's very good. Yeah, right. There's a lot of textures happening. But it's essentially this milkshake. But nothing's blended together. Everything's like very. Well, its textures are independent. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And then you eat it with a spoon. So you're like getting everything and then you're left with this like rose flavored milk. It's delicious. And so I wanted to riff off of that a little bit. And so I made this rose pomegranate follow the sundae. So we still did the vermicelli noodles and the basil seeds. I made like this rose pomegranate syrup, used our sweet milk ice cream and topped it with more syrup and pomegranate seeds.
1:13:33And it was like it was a gamble because these textures are not familiar at all, especially in a dessert, you know, like to get noodles. Yeah. Like syrupy noodles. It was it was. Yeah. I applaud my boldness. Yeah. From being a baby business owner. But it was received so well. Like it was just like everyone just loved it so much. They were like they were like delighted by the different textures and the different ingredients. And so I wanted to put this follow the sundae in the in the cookbook. And so it's the same thing. It's this layering process. And it's not hard at all. You just like there's a lot of store bought ingredients you can get online or at an Indian grocery store.
1:14:24But you just like put all of these things together and you end up with like from compiling all of these things, you end up with this really special dessert. Yeah, and then at the end it has that melty. Totally. It's so good. It's like it mixes in the syrup. End of the Sunday. Yes. It's so good. I love it. Oh, I love it. Terrific book. I just want to ask you at the end, what's it like cooking at home for you? I mean, you've got this business. You've written a cookbook about ice cream. But are you cooking? Well, I actually live with my parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, no. They are doing the cooking.
1:15:02My mom does the cooking. Yeah. But she, I mean, she still makes very traditional dishes. And then, you know, I come in with like the tacos and the pasta. I see, I see, I see. But they're making Gujarati dishes? They do. Yeah, yeah. I mean, my dad doesn't cook that much. But, yeah, my mom definitely makes these Gujarati meals. Definitely some things that, a lot of things that like I grew up with. But she, too, is on Instagram and loves to follow a recipe creator or two and likes to try new things. How fun. That's great. Yeah. On This is Taste, we have to discuss about the certain taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire.
1:15:43Fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? I'm ready. The best fruit. This is so typical, but I love a mango. What kind? So Alfonso mango is great. and then the geser mangoes which come up in Indian stores are imported from India are so so so good. What makes a great mango then? I mean the perfect sweet slash tartness at one time but like also you just know when like you cut into it and your knife just glides through and you know that it's going to be like this perfect texture. That's amazing. The worst vegetable? Summer squash. Yeah. It's such a filler. Yeah, it's too much water in there. Yeah.
1:16:28Yeah. What's your typical breakfast? So I, this is, sorry, this is so long. I do chai in the morning. Yes. So I make chai in the morning and I usually have that with like a couple of crackers or a piece of toast. And then a couple of hours later, I do like either oatmeal or a yogurt bowl or eggs or something like that. So a two-step breakfast. I have a double breakfast. Yeah. So great, though. Yeah. Like you just got to keep being fueled. I mean, if I had it my way, I would have a triple breakfast. Yeah, like every three hours. Like 11 a.m. third breakfast, then you segue into a later lunch, and then you have a, oh, so good.
1:17:05It's so good. Yeah. Yes. Like that a lot. Are you working at the shops a lot? I usually actually work from home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got your home set up. I've got my home set up, and so I know when my second breakfast is coming. Okay. Very nice. All right. big one for you the best dessert I mean besides ice cream I mean there's nothing better than ice cream it's creamy it's cold it's sweet it's all the things okay I'll give you that one you run a business so you get to say that one alright a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead do you remember well I mean it still exists I'm very much acknowledging that but in the East Village Caracas Arepas Bar was there and like it was my go-to for anything and everything.
1:17:55Dude. Let's go there. It's so good. Maribel, the owner, incredible woman. Really? I haven't heard that. The Guasacaca, the original Guasacaca at the 7th Street location, so good. Is that the meat one? Guasacaca was the guacamole and chicken. Okay. Not for you yet, right. Yeah, yeah. There was one with beans and a harder cheese. Oh, yeah. Oh my god, it was so good And I would take anyone and everyone there all the time It would be like my East Village date I mean, and it's all about the sauce And it's all about the sauce I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I went there And I very much know that it still exists Well, there's one out in like the On the beach On the beach, yeah It's a beach place and it's great But it's seasonal, can't go all the time It's seasonal and they grilled the you know the arepa perfectly I do agree I remember the open I mean that place was honestly if this was you're interviewing me that would be my answer it's like truly one of my favorite restaurants that no longer exists in a special place so I've never said that we've done this question a lot so thank you for bringing that memory I love that I'm there for you last one your favorite sandwich um probably like in new york can be anywhere oh man well anywhere i'm gonna just i wouldn't air a touch in new york i mean this is probably top three sandwiches anyway but the broccoli reuben from court street grocers yeah right so good so good and like so um like you have you have to just want it because it does not keep you have to eat it right then and there you have to eat the whole thing.
1:19:44Oh, yeah. There's no takeout, no leftovers. There's no leftovers, but it's also just so satisfying. Love that answer. Well, you will come back when you're dominating the world, as you said. But Pooja, this has been such a fun conversation. I love Malai, and I'm so happy you came in. Thank you so much for joining This is Taste. Thank you so much for having me.
1:20:10This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell, logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.
From the publisher
Today is all about ice cream, and we have two guests who know the business inside and out. Tyler Malek is the cofounder and head chef of Salt & Straw, a cult-followed ice cream chain with scoop shops across the country. Based in Portland, Oregon, Salt & Straw is known for churning out the most imaginative ice cream flavors around. In the new cookbook America’s Most Iconic Ice Creams, Tyler takes a look at the classics with fresh eyes, then branches out into new territory. Aliza had so much fun having Tyler in the studio to nerd out on ice cream, from hitting up vanilla geneticists to building “flavor trinities” in each scoop.
Also on the show, we catch up with Pooja Bavishi. Pooja is the founder and CEO of Malai, a South Asian–inspired ice cream company based in Brooklyn, and she’s one of the sharpest founders in the ice cream game. We talk about Pooja’s big idea for Malai and dig into her debut cookbook.
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