In short
This Is TASTE - Episode 587: Setting a Place for Us with Hawa Hassan
Podcast Overview
- Podcast Title: This Is TASTE
- Hosts: Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard
- Description: Engaging conversations about food, home cooking, and culture, featuring interesting guests from food, media, and cookbooks.
Episode Description
- Guest: Hawa Hassan, chef, founder of Basbaas Foods, and author of the James Beard Award-winning cookbook *In Bibi's Kitchen*.
- Focus: Discussion about her new book, *Setting a Place for Us: Recipes and Stories of Displacement, Resilience, and Community from Eight Countries Impacted by War*.
- Secondary Guest: Maryam Jillani discussing her debut cookbook, *Pakistan: Recipes and Stories from Home Kitchens, Restaurants, and Roadside Stands*.
Key Themes and Discussions
Hawa Hassan's Journey
- Background: Hawa shares her immigrant experience growing up in Seattle and how food memories shaped her identity, particularly her nostalgic love for hot dogs and Doritos.
- Motivation for Writing:
- Desire to tell her family's story and broader narratives about being African and the impact of displacement and war.
- Previous work, *In Bibi's Kitchen*, focused on storytelling through recipes; her new book continues this theme but expands to broader socio-political contexts.
Setting a Place for Us
The Book
- Focus on Displacement: The book examines eight countries affected by war: Afghanistan, Democratic Republic of Congo, Egypt, El Salvador, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, and Yemen.
- Research Process:
- Hawa's objective was to explore each country’s culinary traditions while respecting their unique histories and cultures.
- She faced challenges in reporting, including travel restrictions and logistical difficulties, but employed a network of contacts to gather stories and recipes.
Countries Covered
- Selection Criteria: Countries were chosen based on shared experiences of conflict, instability, and humanitarian issues, mirroring Somalia's own struggles.
- Personal Experiences:
- Visits included the Democratic Republic of Congo and El Salvador, where she engaged with local communities and learned culturally significant recipes.
Cultural Insights Through Food
- Understanding Through Cuisine: Hawa emphasizes that food reflects the experiences of its people, illustrating resilience and identity amidst adversity.
- Empowerment through Storytelling: She argues that sharing these narratives allows people from war-torn regions to reclaim their identities and showcase their strength, rather than framing them as victims.
Cooking and Community
- Cooking Philosophy: Hawa talks about the importance of cooking as a means of connecting with one's heritage and fostering community.
- Recipe Development: Recipes in the book are not only practical but are interwoven with the stories and cultural significance of the dishes.
Maryam Jillani's Contribution
- Debut Cookbook: Focuses on the rich culinary traditions of Pakistan, addressing the lack of representation of Pakistani cuisine in the U.S.
- Cultural Context: She provides a comprehensive view of Pakistani food, distinguishing it from Indian cuisine while acknowledging their shared heritage.
Key Takeaways
- Empowerment through Food: Both Hawa and Maryam emphasize the power of food and cooking as tools for personal and cultural storytelling.
- Culinary Narratives: The books serve to educate readers about the complexities of the cuisines and histories of the featured countries.
- A Call to Action: The discussions encourage listeners to explore these cultures through their cuisines, urging them to appreciate the narratives behind the food.
Conclusion The episode offers profound insights into the world of culinary storytelling, emphasizing the intersection of food, culture, and personal identity. It highlights the resilience and community spirit found within the rich tapestry of recipes and stories from regions affected by conflict and displacement.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Resi is a digital platform that connects restaurants to restaurant lovers by elevating dining experiences, providing original industry content, and helping to fill some of the country's most exciting dining rooms. Because restaurants have always been more than just places to eat. The amazing world of restaurants is just a few taps away in the Resi app and at resi.com.
0:31None of these people see themselves as victims or see themselves as less than. There's so much honor in the way that they share their food and the way that they tell their story and that you can create a better world even if it's within your family.
0:51This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel.
0:59Hawa Hassan is a chef, founder of Bas Bas Foods, and author of the James Beard Award-winning cookbook in Bebe's Kitchen. She spent the past several years reporting an ambitious new book, Setting a Place for Us, Recipes and Stories of Displacement, Resilience, and Community from Eight Countries Impacted by War. We had her into the studio to talk about her research and lengthy reporting process.
1:25Hello Hassan, this is Tais. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me here. It's a delight. It's so fun to have you in the studio. And I'm really excited to talk about your new book, Setting a Place for Us. Before we talk about the book, I want to give a little bit of context into who you are. And I'm wondering if you could tell me a food memory that you have from growing up. You know, it's funny because I think oftentimes when I talk about my food memories, I talk about like my mom and her like sugo and bris and things you've probably heard me talk about. But the thing that constantly comes up for me is what I remember as a child that I went to for comfort.
2:08And I grew up in Seattle, Washington in the early 90s. So like around 1993, 94. And I went to the same gas station every single day. I went to this man named Mr. Henry. he and his wife fed me every day after school and the one thing that stuck with me from that time and that I often crave is this is gonna sound bad but this is my food memory especially when I need comfort is this hot dog he made for me this beef hot dog and Doritos like that's my memory and That's my comfort. I love this. Are the Doritos on top of the hot dog or are they on the side? It was a bag of chips when it used to be 25 cents.
2:53Yeah. I'm picturing them like, what flavor was it? Oh, the nachos. I was thinking Cool Ranch. Oh, I didn't like Cool Ranch at all. I only had it at like pizza parties, like when other people's parents provided that. The secondary. Exactly. Before you came to the U.S., had you had a hot dog before? Never. And I think that was a bit of the allure. Pizza and hot dogs were a big deal for me because I'd never seen them ever. Had you seen them like on TV or just not at all? I'd never seen any of that. I mean, I saw olives for the first time on the airplane. Whoa. Coming over to the U.S. I'm just picturing what it would be like to encounter an olive on the airplane for the first time.
3:38It feels like a very sterile setting. Yeah. Well, when I arrived in Seattle and I spoke to my mom finally, I told her that they were serving green ice. What did she say? She was sure that they weren't. Yeah, she was right ultimately, I guess. Yeah. Moms always know. I was like, I'm positive. There was like a hole in the middle. When you moved to New York later on, did you have any similar experiences of like foods that you had never encountered before that you remember? No, but when I moved to New York, one of the very first things I leaned on and leaned on heavily for the first year I lived here was pizza like dollar slice kind of pizza dollar slice pizza on Fulton and Nostran it's right next to Ali's uh the um Patty place I don't know if it's still there but I used to go there all the time getting on the train and getting off the train so shout out to the dollar slice I'm really excited because I didn't really get to do a podcast episode with you about your last book, In Bibi's Kitchen, but it's one of my favorite books.
4:42And I think you just do such an interesting thing when it comes to coming up with cookbook ideas. And I'd really love to hear about how you first came up with this idea for setting a place for us. So setting a place like In Bibi's Kitchen was really born out of a desire to tell stories about selfishly myself, my family. In Bibi's Kitchen was based on the fact that I wanted to preserve those stories and I wanted to tell broader stories about being African. And I knew I couldn't do that if I'd focused just on Somalia. And I knew I couldn't do that if I just focused on the recipes. And I knew I couldn't do that if I had just focused on grandmothers and recipes.
5:25And so it was like the Indian Ocean and the countries that touch and how that pertained to where I'd come from, which was Somalia. I always knew that the second book after that would be about displacement and war because that's what I grew up in. And ultimately that that event of displacement and war became the bedrock of my life for so many years. And I knew that would be the second part of the follow up to M.B.B.'s Kitchen would be, you know, how do you talk about that and how do you how do you create a bigger space for what it looks like to be you? Yeah, absolutely. And I guess I'm interested in why cookbooks as the vehicle to explore all of that.
6:07So then I'd have to take it back a little bit to 2014 when I launched my company, Best Best Foods. And the intention prior to all of that, I was talking to my mom because I really wanted to leave my old life and my old career. And I had kind of been like in an examination phase of myself. I wanted to figure out who I was, where I'd come from, who my people were. And I also wanted to like undo a lot of the stories that had been told to me about who I was, which for so long, the story that I constantly told myself was that, one, I was Khalidja Usman's daughter. I was Hussain Ahmed Adhan Ilman Baran's daughter, that I was one of 10, that I was born in Mugdisha, that, you know, all these other things that happened.
6:52But that was like the thing I hung on to. I was like, I know who I am. I know where I'm from. And then later I was like, oh, God, I'm so beholden to this story that I'm not creating new ones about myself. And then I became the girl next door and I became a basketball player. And, you know, I became very American in all the ways that a teenager could be living in Seattle, Washington in the 90s. And so, you know, country music was me. Grunge was me. Like all these different identities had become who I was, which I really loved because I'd created this this way of being just how Hassan and not like how Hassan passed, but like how Hassan present and future.
7:35And so in 2014, I'd come to a fork in the road and I really was starting to confront, even though it was nice to hold on to those stories. What more could I do with them and how could I create better on who I was? And also, like, I was like, I need to go to therapy. Like, a lot of trauma has happened. And so to answer your question, I got into the food business to tell better stories, again, selfishly about myself and my people. And that's how all this came to be. It was how do you arrive at the dinner table and how do you innovate from there? Yeah, I really love getting to hear about all of these different versions of Hawa.
8:19And I think that kind of process of, you know, not even myth making, but just storytelling about ourselves and people around us is so foundational to cookbooks and is something that I think has been lacking in a lot of ways for a while. And I really want to talk about the process of making this book happen, because as someone who reads a lot of cookbooks, I've heard you talking about it. I read the blurb, and I was like, oh, this must have been a really ambitious and complicated reporting process. The book focuses on eight countries. I'll name them. They're Afghanistan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Egypt, El Salvador, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia and Yemen.
8:55How did you come up with this list of countries and how did you try to, you know, pay respect and understanding to all of them? I wanted to examine countries that I felt mimicked Somalia's like climate in terms of the things that we'd experienced as a people. And so some of the things that I when I was thinking of which countries I would go to or which countries I would feature in the book was about I wanted to examine conflict and instability. I wanted to also examine civil war, refugee and migration crisis and then humanitarian concerns. Right. So like the DRC and Liberia have long endured devastating civil wars.
9:39But in places like Afghanistan and Yemen, not only have they experienced foreign intervention in a way that has devastated the countries, but they've had constant ongoing wars. And then I wanted to look at places that had just political upheld. And that was places like Lebanon, you know, Lebanon for so many people. Actually, when I was thinking about these countries and I was talking to subjects from these countries, people would be like the DRC and Lebanon in the same conversation. And I was like, yes, in the same conversation, similar things are happening, whether you know it or not. So those were my guiding points in regards to the countries that I included.
10:33Yeah, I think it's really interesting to think about what are the similarities, what are the differences, and how do we learn by having both of those side by side? Which of the countries did you visit, and how were those experiences for you? So I visited the Democratic Republic of Congo, El Salvador, Liberia, and Lebanon. And had you been to any of those countries before? I'd been to El Salvador in 2020, February, right before the world shut down, to do the proposal for the book. So before M.B.B.'s Kitchen had come out, I knew that I needed to do the work for this book. So I did that proposal based on my visit to El Salvador.
11:14And what was it like for you, I guess, to go—you went back to El Salvador afterwards. Did you notice similar things or have different experiences? Well, the nice thing was, is that I'd already had, I'd had the subject that I wanted to feature. I'd had the friendships in the community that I'd created. And I went back in March of 2022. So two years had passed. It was interesting to see how the climate had changed. Bitcoin had become the way of life and the money of the place. Really? Yeah. So that was interesting. Also, you know, in El Salvador, there's huge migration rates due to game violence and instability.
11:54And so just right after I went, they'd had a new president. And so there was a lot of conversation about that and people being jailed. So it was really interesting. And then how did you handle reporting on the places that you weren't able to go to yourself? I hired like in VB's kitchen I hate to keep talking about in VB's kitchen but I used the same tools that I did there and so I thought about who I knew in my personal circle and then from there on I was like okay we're only about six degrees removed from the person that I need if I didn't already know them and so I got in touch with photographers I got in touch with local reporters.
12:37I got in touch with friends who were from these places. And so the DRC, even though I went there, my friend who did the cultural editing for the book was the person who ultimately connected me to some folks on the ground. And so it was just word of mouth and friends and community members that I was able to tap into. Yeah, I think reading the book, There's so much kind of cultural knowledge and history that you're setting up, and then it also accompanies these recipes. How did you think about wanting to have the kind of reported essay and recipe parts of each chapter connect? Did you come up with a list of recipes that you wanted to have from each country, or did it kind of come later?
13:20Sure. I think a lot of that actually was based on, naively again, was based on, I kept thinking, what would an Egyptian kitchen look like? If you were to have dinner at an Egyptian person's home, what is the thing that they're going to make for you? And the same for a Lebanese, the same for a Congolese person from the DRC, same for a Liberian. And what from there I did was choose the top eight recipes that would be reflective of that culture. And then I took it a step further and I went to the people that are from these places and I said, hey, Omar, does this reflect a Lebanese kitchen? And the answer often was yes.
14:03And then sometimes there would be things like we, you know, if you're going to talk about that soup, it needs to be a day such and such soup. Like you have to tell us what's in the soup. And so writing of the recipes was a bit interesting because there were cultural contexts that would be in the title. And so that was fun to learn and figure out and then put into our recipes and interpret into our recipes. And then I worked with a recipe developer and we continued developing the recipes over and over until we felt that it was reflective of an Egyptian kitchen or a Lebanese kitchen or a Liberian kitchen.
14:47Yeah, I think that context is so interesting because also I would imagine sometimes it's if you're doing this dish, it would always be served with this other thing on the table. And so that dish needs to be included as well. There's so many kind of overlapping pieces. Right. And you'll see that in the book where like, you know, there might be a standalone recipe, but then I reference it goes best with this other thing. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea.
15:22Aura Frames. AuraFrames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love. And a gift that can be purchased in no time with a few clicks of the mouse. AuraFrames are great. They sent me one to check out, and it was really cool and dumb simple to set up. I loaded photos using the app, and it was displaying them instantly. There are no limits to the amount of photos you can load, and you can customize messages with each photo. And here's the deal. You can preload an Aura frame with photos and have it directly sent to that special person in your life, gift-wrapped and all.
15:57There will be no price tag, and you can include a personalized message. Think about it. All those photos from this past summer's family reunion delivered in a digital frame. That is pretty cool. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get$35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code TASTE at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames dot com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout.
16:37Terms and conditions apply. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story. The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.
17:20The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Another thing that I noticed when reading the book is these kind of QR codes that you have throughout, Can you tell me about why you wanted to use those and what kind of purpose they serve? Yeah, I, you know, I like to think of myself as a student. I like to think of myself as a window into other worlds. And oftentimes I found that when people speak to me, they either shy away, even if it's the pronunciation of my name, they like shy away and then ask me for permission how to say it.
17:55And I really wanted to give people permission from the get-go to say, you know, you have the tool. Here it is. Let's learn it together. And that's where that came from. But it also just comes from wanting to call things by their name and not wanting to, like, water it down. Yeah. So the QR codes, when you scan them, it takes you to an audio file of pronouncing the recipe name. So people know how to refer to all of these things. And I think it's really smart because even like myself as a child, I love to read and I would always be mispronouncing these words that I would encounter in a book but that nobody would say in real life.
18:32And my parents would have to correct me. I think especially for a book that has so many different languages, it's a really like thoughtful step to include. Thank you. I mean, I still mispronounce things. My husband thinks I say people's names wrong all the time. I'm like, I just added an S. It's just a little extra flavor. Sure. I'm curious when you were reporting this book, either traveling at these countries or, you know, having conversations and meals with people here in New York. Did you have any like meals that were especially memorable or meaningful to you? Getting to Congo was such the DRC was such a complicated.
19:11I call it like a shell game because I just felt like I was in a whirlwind of moving pieces that I had no control over. and we were, it was two days after I won the James Beard. I left the beard, got on an airplane because I was like, I don't care what happens. I need to get this done. So we left, we got to Paris, get to Paris and are told we need a visa, a Laflung visa, a flying visa to get to the DRC. And I was like, nope, I talked to the embassy. They said no. And they were like, you can have somebody call the airline and we'll let you on. So we ended up staying an evening in Paris and I found somebody on Instagram because I had written this whole post saying like, haven't processed this, I'll come back to it.
20:00Thank you, everybody. I'm on my way to the DRC. And a Somali person had written me and said, like, Kinsasha? And I was like, yeah, I'm on my way to Kinsasha, but I'm stuck in Paris waiting for a visa. He said, don't worry, I'll get you the papers in the morning. gets me two visas, which cost me, I'm not kidding you, thousands of dollars. I mean, again, it became a part of the shell game because it was like hustle after hustle after hustle, which I was the mark at every turn. And so when we when I think about that, for me, there was no place more. And each place was special in its own way and offered a different experience.
20:42But when we got to Kinsasha, I had a friend set me up with Lana and her family and they gave me refuge. They brought us into their home. And I talk about that in the intro of the book where I say the food is almost inconsequential because I needed the warmth and the comfort of like a family setting and a dinner table. And she provided that for us that evening, our first night in Kinsasha. Wow. What a story and also like a testament to the network of Somalis around the world that you got your visa immediately and kept going on your way. Oh, my goodness. I still, you know, I had spoken to the friend that sent me up with Lina.
21:24He said, you're going to have to wait a few days. And I was like, no, then we're going to miss Kinshasa altogether because I have to be in Liberia in a few days. And so wherever he's listening, I hope he knows I'm very grateful, even though I was hustled. Yeah, it's just part of the deal, I guess. I'm curious, like zooming out on more of a macro level, what do you think we can learn about a country or a people or even a family like by looking at the food that they have? I think when you think about that coupled with the countries in this book, you have to think about a place like Iraq, which is often said to be the cradle of humanity.
22:02You know, you got to think about Egypt, which has one of the oldest civilization on Earth. You know, you have to think about the things that these people experience every day. And the number one question they're asking themselves is what's for dinner? You know, how are we getting the kids to school? and I don't want it to be lost on anybody that none of these people see themselves as victims or see themselves as less than. There's so much honor in the way that they share their food, in the way that they tell their story and I think the takeaway here can be that you are no victim of the times, You are no victim of your circumstances and that you can create a better world, even if it's within the one that you live in, even if it's within your family.
22:54Yeah, I think that's really important. And it makes me think about, you know, at the beginning of this episode, you said that it's almost a selfish impulse for you to be wanting to do this book. I would say it's kind of the opposite of selfish. But I'm curious if as a Somali person, as a Somali refugee, if you kind of feel differently about that part of your own background. like after speaking with all of these people who share this kind of common experience? I don't. I mean, I feel, you know, for so long, I wanted to move away from that part of myself. And I just wanted to be so, so close to what everyone else was, which is just like the girl next door, you know, that eating hot dogs.
23:36Yeah, eating hot dogs in my Doritos. but I don't I don't feel any different I think if anything I feel proud I feel a deep sense of pride in who these people are and our connection and our similarities and the kindness in which we show up in the world and how we greet one another and the way that we share is just so different from the West. And so I feel, if anything, much more closer to that older identity of mine than I do further from it. I'm curious also if your own home cooking has changed after working on this book, if there are any like recipes or techniques that you find yourself like cooking at home that maybe you weren't doing before.
24:25Yeah, I think. Do you cook at home also? Yeah. Yeah. I figured, but I was like maybe I shouldn't be assuming. No we cook. It's so funny. I asked my this is I'm getting off subject but I asked my husband the other day I said what are you proud of so far this year and he like told me three things and he's like what are you proud of and my number one was that like we just eat at home. Like we eat all our food. We don't allow our food to waste which is a big step for me because I love to grocery shop. Like I need a market every day. we cook a ton at home my husband cooks a ton I think when I was enthralled in the world of in Bibi's kitchen I made a lot of foods that were reflective of the Indian Ocean and I used a ton of those spices and some of those spices are reflective in setting a place for us but now I find myself cooking cooler foods you know things that are finished with like tahini or not a hot sauce, but a cooler sauce.
25:30And I think in so many ways, my cooking is changing and the things that I'm eating are changing because I'm cooking from places that I'm not from and cuisines that are, you know, for a lack of better comparison, reflective more of the Middle East. That's really interesting. I love thinking about like warmer versus cooler foods, but I see what you mean about like a warming spice blend versus something that has different spices going on? Absolutely. I feel like everybody writes a book hoping that people are going to read it chronologically in the way that it was written. But when I speak to people who read cookbooks, like often that's not the case.
26:09And they're kind of like flipping to a chapter or to a page and seeing what catches their eye. If someone was listening to this episode, if there are any recipes in the book or sections that you would recommend somebody like check out as like a first recipe to make at home? So I would absolutely love that, you know, if somebody's going to open up this book and there's an easy recipe to go to or a very delicious recipe, I think like the arayas from the Lebanese chapter, it's a meat stuffed pita. It's delicious. It's warm. It's got great flavors like toasted nuts, ground beef, a seven spice mix, which I feel like now everybody has a seven spice mix in their pantry.
26:50Well, if they don't, I think it's a worthwhile addition, especially to make this recipe. Totally. So you said that you had this second book in mind, even while you were still finishing in BB's kitchen. I don't mean to take away from this moment of book release, but I am curious if you have another book idea or like the next thing that you're kind of interested in working on. Funny that you asked. We did not plan. Yeah. Yeah, actually, I have two books that I'm currently working on. One about an examination of lunch hour globally, and then one that's focused more on ritualistic eating. What is ritualistic eating?
Read the full transcript
27:29Like, what do you eat when? You know, what do you eat when the king dies? What do you eat when you give birth? What do you eat when you talk to God? Oh, okay. I'm excited about both of these, but especially ritualized eating. I think there's so much meaning and value and like mysticism in that. Are you doing both of the books at once? Yes. And I'm doing them with a dear friend and a bestie so that we can get them together. So the next two books have a similar structure to Setting a Place for Us and in Bibi's Kitchen. It's about global eats. I imagine your Google Docs or wherever you're managing things has a lot of interviews and people and places like all in different sections.
28:11Yeah, it's so funny. A poet friend asked me today, she's like, how are you doing all of this? And I sent her a video of my Dropbox. So everything's in Dropbox. Wow. Okay, I want to see the video. It'll be good inspiration for me too. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey.
28:46It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies.
29:19I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. Butcher Box is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure-cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.
29:59It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited-time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Before we close today, I want to play like a rapid fire game with you. So I'll give you a question and then you're going to play favorites and tell me the first answer that comes into your head.
30:43Okay. A recipe from setting a place for us that you would make for dinner tonight. I would say the full. I know that it's a recipe that it's flavell beans. I know it's a recipe that most people eat for breakfast or lunch, but I would make it for tonight because I've been eating more. I've been eating a diverse protein dinner. And so it's something that I would make for tonight. I love full. I do, too. A favorite cookbook right now that isn't your own. I just looked through Ghana to the World last night. I haven't read through it, but I got it last night and I think it's really beautiful. And I think it is a book that is hopefully going to make it easier for more people to make books like that.
31:32It's a beautiful book. It really is. Your favorite grocery store in New York? Shahadi's. I live right there. It must be so nice to be close by. I feel like I would go every day, too, though. Yeah, I go there quite often, sometimes just for discovery purposes. Your favorite bakery in New York? My husband told me not to say this, but it's true. Winston's. Why can't you say it? He's like, everybody knows it now. And I'm like, we knew it a long time ago. Yeah. And they have a second location now. So I'm hoping. They have one in like First Ave in the Lower East Side, East Village. Oh. I know. You could go after this.
32:10I know. Thank you for that. What do you like to get there? The donuts. Really, it is the best mochi donut I've had in New York. Yeah. My niece just came to help me in the kitchen. And she lives in New Jersey. And I took her there after. She had powdered sugar everywhere in the car. So cute. Your favorite neighborhood restaurant? Walters. Your go-to late night snack, whatever late night means to you. Probably Greek yogurt, honey, and walnuts. A restaurant that's not in your neighborhood that you wish could be your neighborhood restaurant? Okay, only because I grew up in this restaurant. Cafe Jeton.
32:52Ooh, I don't think I've been there before. Oh, my God. They have a Vinegar Hill one now. It's not the same, but it's on Moth and Prince. What do you get there? I've gotten the fool there. I get the salmon there. I also get the couscous there. Okay, final question. A fictional food scene, like from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish that you could magically eat in real life? Oh, this is great. Probably the second season of Master of None. I think there's so many great food scenes and episodes in there. I love episode one where he's learning to make pasta. I love episode two when his friend comes to visit and they eat at Mossimo's restaurant.
33:42on. And then I love episode, I think it's episode seven, the Thanksgiving episode, where, you know, they're going over him and Denise's friendship and the many different versions of Thanksgiving that they've had together. It's warm, intimate, and it's just beautiful storytelling. Wow. I haven't thought about that show or that season in a minute, but I love that you're referencing specific episodes. It makes me want to go back and rewatch it. You have to watch it. I'm going to want to eat pasta afterwards, I think. Yeah. Or a lot of ice cream. Yeah, all of the above. Hawa, thank you so much for coming into the studio and talking about your new book.
34:20I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
34:27Mariam Jelani, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? Good. I'm so happy to be here. Well, I'm thrilled to have you on the show. I absolutely love your work, your journalism. You've written a number of amazing stories for taste. And really, this book, Pakistan, is such an incredible editorial work. It's exactly the types of books that I love to read. I like to strive to make books like this. It blends deep journalism with great editorial photography and reportage. And I just learned so much about Pakistan in reading it. And so major congratulations. It's so good. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much, Matt.
35:10It means a lot. As you know, I got my started food reporting at Taste. So it's been a long road. And I'm so glad that you, yeah, that you enjoyed the book. Well, you have to pick it up, listeners. Pick it up. And I have the link in the show notes. You got to buy this book. It's remarkable because, you know, cookbooks come in many forms. This one is when you read. I mean, there's incredible reporting and stories from all over Pakistan. We're going to go over the multiple regions you cover. You have a deep connection to it. But just from the jump, you know, why was this book needed to be written?
35:46Well, I've been thinking about this book for a very long time. You know, I think aside from this book and also another Pakistani cookbook that just came out, Zareen's Kitchen, out of the amazing Pakistani restaurant in the Bay Area, I think the last Pakistani cookbook to be published by an international publisher was in 2016. It was Summers Under the Tamarind Tree by Sumaya Ismani, a beautiful book. So just based on the fact that it was a while ago, so there's been a huge dearth of cookbooks on Pakistani food. Despite the fact that we've seen an explosion of international cookbooks in the past several years in the States, you know, you find lots of cookbooks on Iranian food, lots and lots of cookbooks on Indian food, to the point where you see Indian, you know, cookbooks have started to branch out into regional cuisine.
36:41There's an Afghan cookbook, a Sri Lankan cookbook. And, you know, there just wasn't like an absence of a Pakistani cookbook that was published in the United States. And while like Samaya and Zareen's cookbooks do an amazing job of like spotlighting Pakistani food, personally, what I really wanted was to sort of like, I think a lot of their cookbooks sort of come from their personal experience and their childhood. And what I wanted to sort of bridge the gap was to sort of present a more like complete look at Pakistani cuisine. By no means exhausted, but just a more like a broader view of what Pakistani food is and kind of try to make a case for why it deserves its own space on the global culinary map.
37:27Yeah. And you really, really, really give it a ton of space. And those books are terrific. They're written from restaurant point of views and more personal point of views. and you take more of a third-person documentary approach and really answer a lot of questions I had about Pakistan as a country and about the culture there. Give us a little bit about the background, your background with Pakistan, you know, living there and visiting. What's been your journey with Pakistan? Sure. So I was born and raised in Pakistan. It's also where I went to college. So, yeah, I was born and raised in Islamabad.
38:06And then I did my undergraduate studies in Lahore, which, you know, gets its own chapter in the book. And then I moved to the U.S. as a graduate student in 2008. But because of my sort of work in international development, I maintained a very strong connection to Pakistan. I was working on education programs there and would go visit both my hometown Islamabad, but as well as rural parts of the country. like several times a year. So yeah, so kind of, even though I've been out of the country for like 15 plus years, I have a very strong connection to it. And obviously food writing helped continue it, sustain it.
38:49Even when I stopped working in international development, I think it was a really meaningful way for me to stay connected to the country. And so it's evolving food culture. So yeah. Well, you had a really deep insight into the communities outside of the major cities. And it really shows in the book. I mean, very few, you know, English-speaking journalists and English-writing journalists have the ability to travel throughout the country like that. That's why this book is so special. I have a question about just Pakistani cuisine in the United States. You know, many of our listeners live in the States.
39:25And, you know, there are Pakistani restaurants, of course. But, you know, oftentimes Pakistani cuisine gets lumped into, quote unquote, Indian cuisine and Indian restaurants will be serving Pakistani cuisine and many diners would never know the difference. So how do you how do you negotiate this for your your U.S. audience? And maybe give us a couple examples of dishes that you would consider Pakistani in heritage that we might we might know as Indian cuisine. So I've been thinking about this question a lot. It's a very good question. And it's also a tricky question. I don't think personally, and I think other Pakistanis may disagree, I don't think there's any one dish that people can point to and say, oh, that's Indian or that's Pakistani.
40:12because I think we have such a red shared heritage and there's so much cross-pollination. When you generally ask Pakistanis what Pakistani food is or what Pakistani dish is, they normally point to more meat-heavy dishes or they'll point to Nihari. But Nihari likely originated in these Muslim neighborhoods in Delhi, which is the Indian capital. They might point to Halim, which is this gorgeous, like very hearty lentil and meat porridge. But you can find that in parts of India as well. There's pie, which is like a very popular dish in Punjab, which is like a goat stew prepared with goat trotters.
40:55You can find that in India as well. And so what I kind of what I've tried to do in the book is and maybe it's not a satisfying answer, was that instead of saying like, that's Indian or Pakistani, or is that Pakistani or Afghan, I've tried to say, well, it's Pakistani and Indian, or it's Pakistani and Afghan. If the cook preparing it identifies as Pakistani, they're infusing that dish with their own sort of history and their own take. And so I've taken a very generous view of what Pakistani food is. That's a very satisfying answer, I'm going to say. Okay, great. You did a great job. And I think it's impossible to have certainty with this question because of Pakistan's, you know, you know, history as a country, which is so young.
41:47And really, you negotiate well. Tell us a little bit about the travel for the book. Because clearly with the photography and stunning, stunning photography and the design really makes the photos pop in a way that I absolutely love. What's it like reporting this book? What kind of miles did you put on just to get out into the country and, you know, meet these cooks? You were in a lot of kitchens. It's clear from the head notes and the writing. Yeah. So I think for the travel, I mean, it was very ambitious. I only had six weeks to travel, right? I mean, I think the way these book timelines work, I didn't have a ton of time for field research.
42:32It was as soon as I sort of got my advance, I had to kind of run to Pakistan and then squeeze this trip right before Ramzan starts rolling in. And so if anyone who's never lived in a Muslim country knows that the country kind of shuts down during Ramzan. So I didn't have a lot of time. And so within that six-week period, it kind of had to make some very difficult decisions. But I think we did a pretty okay job in reasonable coverage of the country. We got in all four provinces and Hunza in the northern areas. I started the journey in Karachi, which is probably one of my favorite cities in the world.
43:15It was a very strong start, so it was kind of hard for the rest of the places to live up, but I think they did a good job. I contracted a travel company, Route 16, who also ran a really cool boutique resort in Upper Hunza. They helped organize the logistics of the trip and also filled in the gaps of some of my kitchen visits. Together, we like brainstormed an itinerary where we shortlisted the town, cities and villages that I could visit during such a short period of time. So we were trying to like balance the need for representation, making sure that we were covering as many region and diverse communities as possible, but also just keeping very basic practical considerations in mind, which was like travel time, expenses.
44:04you know how many dishes I could even like like also looking at bang for your buck like how many dishes how many visits good visits could I get out of a visit to a particular city so I worked very closely with them we started off with a big spreadsheet where we listed out all the potential visits all the potential of all the potential cities all the potential home visits and within that all the dishes that I was sort of interested in learning about from Karachi I traveled across Sindh province, tried to cover different terrains. From there, I did a quick trip to Kwera in Balochistan, which was personally a very special trip to me because I've never visited Balochistan.
44:48It's probably the poorest and most underrepresented province in the country. And we know, forget the rest of the world, but I don't even think the rest of Pakistan knows very much about Baloch cuisine. So I spent a few very meaningful days there. And then from there, I went to southern Punjab and started traveling my way up, mostly through buses and cars. So I think it was me and Belize. And from southern Punjab, we went to Lahore. Then we went to my hometown, Islama, did a break there, went to Peshawar, and then kind of closed off the trip in the northern areas. And so you'll find a chapter in the book, which is like of these beautiful mountainous terrain.
45:37That's where we sort of ended the trip. So yeah, it was pretty epic. I can't believe I did that. Well, with this travel, with all this extensive travel, you clearly got into some very unique spaces, probably places that a journalist hasn't seen. Give us a couple examples of being in some home kitchens and what were the dishes that you experienced there? Definitely. So I think I was sort of reflecting on the number of dishes that were directly sourced from these visits. And I would say a solid 60 % of the dishes that you'll find in the book were sourced from this trip in Pakistan. Of course, a lot of them include dishes that I learned in my own family home.
46:24But there are many that I think that you won't be able to find those recipes online. To sort of give you an example, in Karachi, in Karachi is a very well-documented food city. But there I was able to sort of spend the afternoon with like the indigenous fishing community. There is a fishing folk activist, Fatma Majeed, that one of my college mates was able to put me in touch with. And, you know, she taught me two really beautiful dishes that made their way into the book. One is like a lovely fish soup, which is flavored with tamarind and a lot of like bright herbs like cilantro and dill. And this other and an equally bright and delicious palau with prawns.
47:14so those are that that was like a really meaningful visit um because it not only like it was a recipes that were closely tied to their community but again did a good job of archiving recipes that you're not going to find online um similarly in um umarkot in sindh uh the same province i went further up and i um learned a few vegetarian dishes from a hindu family who's lived there for multiple generations. One of the dishes that makes its way into the book is called besan quesabzi. And it's like a really warm, I'm trying to find a simple way to describe it, but it's kind of like a flatbread that's prepared with besan or chickpea flour.
47:59And it's spiced with like onion, basic spices, cilantro, chili. And then you cut it up and then you simmer it in a bright tomato sauce. Again, it's a dish that you can find in India as well, in the Rajasthan province, but in Pakistan, people wouldn't really even know that it's a Pakistani dish or that it's actually quite rooted in the province. Yeah, those are just a few of the examples of some of the dishes I directly sourced from the trip and that have made their way into the book. And these are recipes that you typically won't find online or in Pakistani cookbooks. Well, Miriam, you know, the book is a loving tribute to the cuisine.
48:42But in some sense, it's a call to visit Pakistan. And for our listeners, you know, folks who maybe have Pakistani heritage or those interested in Pakistani cuisine, it's a call to visit. What is your answer to the question of should I visit Pakistan as an American right now? That's interesting. I thought about this question when I was writing the book proposal, because the book is meant to inspire cooks as well as travelers and get people excited about Pakistan. I think if you've ever traveled to other parts of South Asia, like India, Sri Lanka or Nepal, you know that even though they're from the same region, it's the flavor of each country is very different.
49:24And I would say the same for Pakistan. So if you're really curious, I would definitely encourage you to go visit. the way I would describe Pakistan and the way I would also describe its food it's kind of where South and Central Asia meet and because it's not a huge tourism hub Pakistan is so excited to welcome visitors and so yeah you should definitely visit Pakistan but you should especially visit if you have a friend or a colleague or any connection then you must absolutely go then you have no excuses you will get spoiled to death. If you don't have a personal connection to Pakistan, there's a lot of new travel companies, like the one I worked with, who help set up very curated itineraries for you.
50:11They take care of the logistics. The travel infrastructure is still developing. It's still very much a work in progress. So it's always helpful to have a company kind of back you up and help iron out some of the things that are more confusing about travel to Pakistan, like the visas or just sort of the logistics, like booking flights are your own is not the most intuitive. But it's still come a very long way from when I left the country. The security situation has improved a lot. The last prime minister, Imran Khan, made a huge push to promote tourism. There was like a bunch, the Pakistani government was courting a lot of influencers.
50:48And so, yeah, the country has come a long way since I left. And yeah, I think that if there's, If you're curious about it, I think it's definitely worth the visit. It's a fascinating place. Miriam, I love the photography. I've said a bit at the top, but how did you work with your photography team to execute these images? And how did you write with the photos in mind? Because it really connects well. So I was, I think with the photography, I was really keen to not characterize Pakistan. I wanted to give readers a true sense of the place through the photographs. And so with the location photography, I decided to go with, I believe, Deninsia, who had a lot of experience with documentary style photography.
51:35They went into a location and didn't instruct anyone to do anything. They just sort of blended in the background and let the scene play out. Of course, there were challenges that came with that because it made the design process tricky because the light was all over the place. These weren't cute, brightly lit kitchens. There was a lot of variation in what the final image looked like. But luckily, the studio photographer, Sunny, was really great in helping sort of pull the visual feel together.
52:11Sunny, he's the one who did the studio photographs. We talked a lot about how we wanted to communicate like a sense of a mother or your aunt or grandmother's table. and um and so we so we so we sort of do kind of that inspiration from the location photography and try to like apply that into the food styling the food photography so you'll see that it's not like a highly stylized um um it's not a very highly stylized photos we wanted to give a very like kind of um yeah like a very genuine warm and sort of realistic feel and i'm so glad that you you think that it came through. Oh, it absolutely did.
52:52And I know the challenges of shooting outside of the studio. My books have all been that way. And honestly, it makes for such a fuller book. And you really accomplished such a feat with it. And the design is great. I'm going to close and just ask you, what's next, Miriam? What are you working on? It's a great question. It's definitely not another book. Honestly, I think I've been so immersed in this project for so many years. And as you know, I've been working on this, thinking about this book, working on this book while I've been living in a lot of different places. And so I'm really excited to actually kind of look outside of Pakistan and sort of engage in food writing outside of the country.
53:39Of course, you know, Pakistani food writing is always there and it's always be close to my heart. But I'm just really excited to sort of engage in like a broader set of issues, broader, you know, like a like a bigger geographical area. So, yeah. But yeah, happy to just sort of take on a smaller size project for now. So, Miriam, we're picking up the book. Give us a couple recipes that you're just so proud of that you think are really going to resonate with the U.S. audience and really dishes that you think we should be making. Okay. So that's a good question. So the one dish that I do think just for the audience in the U.S., I think you should definitely give the chicken haram masala a try.
54:25um it's um it's like i i love this recipe because it's to me it's really truly i i don't want to sign contrived but it's truly the perfect weeknight dish uh it's um it comes together so quickly and it's so full of flavor and it's a great way to use up wilting cilantro and wilting mint and it's just it's personally um you know uh like just makes my week week you know weeknight meals so much brighter. So that's definitely one. And then another one. Okay, so I begin the book with talking about curry. And I think it may be probably my one of my top three favorite dishes in the world. It's a bit more involved.
55:10It's at home, I would have at growing up, I would have it as a weeknight dish. But I think when you're in the States, and you don't have like that much dedicated time to cook. It might be more of a weekend project, but I actually think it's a beautiful dish. It's fully vegetarian, but it is so filling. It's kind of like, yeah, it kind of warms me up inside. It's these chickpea fritters that are, you know, it's pakoras, which I think many of your listeners will be familiar with. It's chickpea fritters that are simmered in this really bright and flavorful yogurt curry that's, and you serve it with plain white rice.
55:52So it's probably one of my favorite dishes. And yeah, I think that while it may seem a bit more involved in terms of the number of steps involved, it's actually quite straightforward to prepare. So there's nothing tricky about preparing it. Like, I don't think you're going to go wrong with it. So yeah, it'll take a bit of time, but I think it's worth the effort. Miriam Jelani, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
56:45and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.
From the publisher
Hawa Hassan is a chef, the founder of Basbaas Foods, and the author of the James Beard Award–winning cookbook In Bibi's Kitchen. She’s spent the past several years writing an ambitious new book, Setting a Place for Us: Recipes and Stories of Displacement, Resilience, and Community from Eight Countries Impacted by War, and we had her in the studio to talk about her research and reporting process.
Also on the show we have a great conversation with Maryam Jillani talking all about her amazing debut cookbook, Pakistan: Recipes and Stories from Home Kitchens, Restaurants, and Roadside Stands.
Do you enjoy This Is TASTE? Drop us a review on Apple, or star us on Spotify. We’d love to hear from you.
Read more:
Hawa Hassan Shares the Spicy Somali Pasta [Vogue]
Maryam Jillani: TASTE Cook In Residence [TASTE]
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
