593: We Like to Dinner Party with Casey Elsass & Michael Symon

28:51But that is such a special part of this book for me. 40 of my friends came to set over the period of days. And now when I flip through the book, I see those people. it to me it feels like such a little secret of who everybody is but it also just feels like so much love that they like came and did that and brought their best clothes and totally understood the assignment and yeah it just I didn't want a studio shot book yeah um gentle and hires were my photographers and so generously let us shoot in their apartment which was the perfect place so we could just sit on a couch or sit in the windowsill and just give like real space and environment because i wanted the recipes to feel like they had left your home and gone somewhere and not just a perfected studio setup um so the jello that is such a funny recipe because I grew up in a very Jell-O household.

29:57And so I've known this for a long time, not necessarily in the bunt form, but in, you know, a bowl or whatever. And then I've also found out that all of my Mexican friends know that recipe. All of my Puerto Rican friends know that recipe. All my Filipino friends know that recipe. All my friends from the Midwest, the Jell-O capital of the United States, know that recipe. It's just like maybe the great unifier of all cultures is this mosaic jello and it's so easy to put together the only thing is the time commitment of letting jello chill multiple times over multiple days but you just make a few different flavors different colors of jello let those set and then you make a milk jello out of condensed milk evaporated milk regular milk and gelatin which gives it that incredible contrast beautiful white color right and then in a bunt pan you just cut up your color jello layer it in pour in some of the milk jello layer some more pour some milk jello so when you flip it out of the bun you have this beautiful exterior molded to the bun in this milky white and then you slice in and it looks like a stained glass or a mosaic of just all these jello colors floating in it it's been since i've revealed like pictures in the book and shared the book with some friends that is like the number one thing everyone it's a great photo it's a cool recipe does it just pop out of the bunt pretty easily yeah yeah i mean i always do like a safety dip in warm water dip in warm water yeah you want but it slides right out it slides right out it's really really really cool but the model in that picture is my friend viv who is probably jello's number one fan and i had brought that recipe to her house for a poker game like months before we shot the book so she was I think maybe the only model that had already seen the dish that they were going to be modeling so when Viv showed up with that dress I just was like this this is gold this is exactly what this it was a really cool shot no direction she just pulled it out of her closet and it's my favorite picture in the book It's a beautiful photo.

32:07And I really like the art direction of this book. It's great. What Can I Bring is the title. Make sure to pick it up. It's available in mid-May. Yeah, May 20th. May 20th. A few more questions. Tell me the story of the Subway cookies. Because I think we all, all New Yorkers, know kind of what you mean bringing baked goods on the Subway. I thought for a second it was the restaurant chain Subway. which we actually wrote a great piece. Priya Krishna wrote it for us in 2019 about Subway's cookies, which are actually really good. They're incredible. They're really good. I love that story. But talk about your Subway cookies.

32:45So my Subway cookies, I named them that because of the story of the birth of these cookies. I developed this recipe years ago. This has just been something I've been making for a long time. And I had made a batch that I felt like, okay, this is it. I think this is the final version. And I was going to meet up with some friends. So I packed them up in a Tupperware, hopped on the subway. And then the lady sitting next to me was so intrigued by them. They use black cocoa. So they're like super dark. That's what's in Oreos. So it's like that dark, dark black. But then with the chocolate chips, those suddenly have this like beautiful brown hue to them.

33:28And so she just was like so intrigued by them. And she kept asking questions about them. and finally I was like do you want one and she was like oh my god yes and she pulled her little like lunch Tupperware out of her bag I opened my Tupperware oh that's gave her a cookie and then the woman on the other side of me was like oh my god those smell incredible and I was like oh do you want one too and so I just was like passing out these cookies on the subway I moved to New york like way pre cell phones dominating our lives yeah and so i am always sad that we don't have that level of connection on the subway anymore you used to just you could only sit there that's all yeah you had like the newspaper remember when everyone had a newspaper in new york or the new times uh you you had your disc man yes uh and then you did not have your phones and they were like noisier yeah which but all you could do was like look across at other people and like make eyes Like, did you just see that?

34:25Like, and I just miss that kind of connection on the subway. So like that weird moment of these cookies, just like bringing the three of us together on the subway ride was so funny to me. I feel like the digital series is there for this. I know we love subway takes and like subways are so interesting. And subway cookies. I mean, let's talk. I like it. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair?

35:07You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt.

35:41My friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot.

36:19There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar. It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Casey, on This is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste.

37:02So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Okay, I'm ready. Okay. The best fruit? Cantaloupe. When it's right, it's right. When it's right, it's right. Yeah. How do you feel about cottage cheese on cantaloupe? I'm fine with it. I'm more of the Alison Roman style of a scoop of ice cream in my cantaloupe. Yep. That's heaven. Roman. I feel you and Roman share a lot. I feel like your book is very similar to Alison's first book. Yeah. I feel like there's definitely kind of like just because you both are very editorial and it's like you have bars.

37:40You know, you have bars. Like these are great, well thought through recipes. So Casey. Thank you. I love Allison. I love her work. She is a genius. And I think she changed cookbooks forever. Absolutely agree. Hard agree. Where's vegetable? Okay. I love every vegetable, but I would like to file a complaint with one vegetable. I hate that you can buy one carrot and you can buy one onion, but then you have to buy a ton of celery. That drives me crazy. I would like to buy one piece of celery to make my soup and then be done with it. Because then I have so much celery and I don't know what to do with it.

38:19Let's bring on the celery loosies. Get me big celery. Just call them loosies. Celery loosies. I mean, you're a food entrepreneur. You've done business. You've looked at P &Ls. Just do the loosies. Like imagine just picking out your one beautiful stalk with leaves and that's it. Like we do it with fruit in Japan. Yeah. Like, come on. This is a great idea. Yeah, this is a million dollar idea. Thank you. Very smart. Okay, what is your typical breakfast? I'm not a big weekday breakfast person. I eat dinner really late, so I don't really wake up hungry. But weekend breakfast, for sure. My boyfriend loves to sleep late.

38:53I scroll on TikTok for a while, and then it's like almost lunch at that point. So I would say like as close to Denny's as possible is my ideal breakfast. Like hash browns, eggs, sausage toast, maybe a little sneaky pancake waffle situation. New Hampshire has great breakfast. Oh, for sure. Anyone who's been up there. Yeah. New Hampshire's diner game in general is beautiful. Great diner game. Obviously, the maple syrup per year's short stack. I mean, just a great culture of agriculture. Yeah. Eggs, bread culture. Yeah, totally. The best dessert. Oh, I hate this question. Yeah, I know. It's tough.

39:35Because each category of dessert, I could pick a winner. Yeah, I know. But I would never want to go ahead. I'm asking the question, though, man. I know. Sorry. Okay. Mint chocolate chip ice cream. That is, from a young age, my forever love. It kind of doesn't diminish. You can keep going and going. And every one of it is good. Green, white, all sizes of chips. I love it all. Do you make your own? No. Smart move. Smart move. I mean, why make your own ice cream? I know there's Leibovitz, great book. Right. I know. I've always wanted to try David's recipe, but I just want to buy. Also, for me, ice cream is like you go out for ice cream.

40:17I don't like eating ice cream at home. I like a hot summer night going to get an ice cream. It's so fun. Yeah. You wait in line. You catch up. You have a scoop. So is there a favorite ice cream in New York City that you go to? You know, I would say one of my big complaints with New York is we do not have great, like, classic ice cream places. We have, like, really fun, creative ice cream places. Sure. But I want, like, a down-and-dirty guy poking out a window kind of ice cream place. Yeah, you got to head out of the city a little bit for that. Where I live, there's a couple of them. Yeah. And I love that sentiment.

40:49My friend has a place near Asbury in New Jersey. Oh. And that's the kind of ice cream that I'm at. Dude, I love Jersey Shore. Yeah. food is amazing okay a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead do you remember the restaurant Peels that was down in the Bowery 100 % that I think about all the time I loved going there some of my friends worked there every time I went there I ran into like three people I was so happy to see it just felt like everybody was there and it was just like I don't really remember much about the food except the biscuits are super good. I think so. Southern restaurant, right?

41:27I guess that makes sense. Yeah. Maybe. But it's just like the vibes there were perfect. Like that was that was like a restaurant done right. Was that an Andrew Tarlow restaurant? Like diner? I could see why but I don't think it was. I don't think it's right. I think that's just like an indie. But it was like that level of like perfected service atmosphere everything. That's why I love asking the question because it always like brings back just joy and like a little bit of sorrow but mostly joy. Great answer. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? McDonald's 100 % of the time. What's the order?

42:00Don't waste my time with anything else. My order is psychotic. I get a quarter pounder meal with a spray, large fry, and a Big Mac to wash it down. Not psychotic. Everyone who knows knows that you can't just do meal. Right. You're going to McDonald's for a reason. You're going to like, it's a survey of the menu items. And you can't just, my order is similar. I'm like a double cheeseburger meal. Always a six nugget, always. And definitely if I'm really feeling frisky, I'm doing some other sandwich, either a single cheeseburger. Yeah. I love McDonald's. Yeah, me too. So good. It's perfect. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food?

42:46Ooh. Okay, I have two answers. One is Oaxaca, Mexico. I lived there when I was 19 a long time ago, and that is like such a special place to me. But I think that is a style of food that is so special and so unique. And so even in Mexico, like they consider that like the cooking, because I think a lot of like indigenous practices were able to survive in Oaxaca that they haven't quite in the rest of Mexico. um and then my other answer is paris but all of my favorite restaurants in paris are not french food they're all other foods because i mean no one can compare it to new york but paris does have an international community in a similar way where you can get a really good version of a lot of different things in that city and i it i love eating in paris well said and have you worked on a mexican cookbook no that is my dream yeah i would love to yeah i can see you you know really diving into oaxacan cuisine and that being exciting definitely out of the six that you're closing can you talk about any of them no cuisine broadly that you're tackling oh all different ones yeah one is uh one one is super fun because it's like every it's kind of like an all around the world book cool and that was such a great exercise for me to do a lot of research do a lot of grocery shopping crawl all over the city looking for things yeah i loved that one um another one is kind of like middle eastern mediterranean uh it's a chef who has a couple very popular restaurants in the city yeah um and then another one that i just finished is a high protein vegan cookbook so it's kind of all over the place yeah what's what's the killer high protein vegan uh ingredient what are we what are we missing i would say everyone should get into lupini beans dude i love it tell me about them i don't know they are so packed with protein yeah they're just starting to like there've always been the like cento like jarred ones hanging out but you don't always see them but now i'm starting to see some brands do like packaged seasoned lupini beans i think they're probably like on their way to becoming like an it ingredient at some point but they're just like super high like way higher protein than a normal bean and they're great like mixed in things but they're also just great as like a meze platter kind of treatment what's the flavor of them i don't like if they're kind of neutral they're sort of like a smaller butter bean, I would say, like a smaller fava.

45:35But they're really good. It's really cool, Casey, to be able to jump around to all these projects. Oh, I love it. It keeps my cooking so interesting. Because when I'm cooking for myself, it's pretty rare that I use a recipe. I use them more for research or technical information or inspiration or whatever. But when I'm cooking, I'm just sort of digging around with what I have and figuring something out. But working in all these different styles just changes my repertoire and my knowledge and it's great it's such a gift so cool last one your favorite sandwich oh um okay there I think the best part about living in New York is figuring out your neighborhood sandwich spot and there's one right off the subway near my apartment and it's one of those like is it a deli is it a grocery store like yes one of those kinds of places and they make the best sandwiches like if i'm headed to the beach that's the first stop for sure but also like on nights where i'm like getting home late and i don't feel like cooking absolutely in that line waiting for my sandwich and they have one that's called honey bunny and it's all sweet it's like honey turkey honey mustard like just sweet sweet sweet but it's so good i love that sometimes at the end of the day you want to have like dinner for dessert yeah and that sweet flavor profile really hits.

46:58A sandwich, that sandwich and a bag of voodoo chips is my dream dinner all the time. So great. Spoken like a true New Yorker, a busy New Yorker. Casey Alsace, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much.

47:15Michael Simon, welcome back to This Is Taste. It's great to see you. It's good to be here. Thank you. I love this book. I love that you love this book. It's true, man. I know. You know what? But for us, it was an incredibly fun book to do because, you know, what started as a show in a tough time then became seven seasons of a show. And we do it in our yard and and I get to do it with Liz every day. It's the shortest commute of all time doing that show. And then the show turned into a book, you know, so about half the recipes are things that we've done throughout all the things we've made on the show.

47:50And then we have a bunch of new recipes. but it's just about getting comfortable with your grill. Yeah, and it's honestly a book that doesn't just have the premise of you can throw it on the grill. Right. I mean, there is an oven in the book. You use some cooking inside in the book, but not majority of the recipes are done on the grill. Yeah, well, I think people have to get over that a grill is just this grill. Like a grill, when the lid's off the grill, a grill's a stovetop. When the lid is closed on the grill, your grill is an oven. so anything that you could do inside you could do outside anything that you could do outside you could do inside like what's the biggest misperception about grilling that um men could not cook anything all year long and then go outside and be five-star chefs on a grill which is i'll just add that's funny to add which is a can be a very tricky cooking implement yeah that That was my father.

48:47My father was like, my mom did, you know, Greek Sicilian mothers we've talked about, but my mom did 90 % of the cooking. But somehow my father thought that when summer hit and he went outside, he suddenly would know how to cook because he's a man and it's a grill. And but it is it's you have to learn the ways of the grill. Like I always cook over live fire. That's how I like to do it. But, you know, there's some rules to live by that will make your life much easier when using the grill. Yeah. And I want to ask you just why do you personally enjoy it so much? Why do you why do you like to head outside?

49:27I mean, we obviously know the weather is nice and you don't want to make your kitchen smoky. But there's something about the technique that you use in a kitchen, in an outdoor kitchen that resembles maybe working the line at your restaurant. Yeah, well, one, I think flavor. I mean, you know, all of our restaurants have always been live fire. So there is the romance of live fire for me and the way that I cook. And I think it adds an element of flavor that you can never achieve on a stovetop or an oven, especially when you're cooking with charcoal or wood. um the the other thing is is like i guess growing up like growing up in cleveland i kind of grilled all year long because of summer spring fall and then you know brown's tailgate season so it didn't matter the season to me um but especially when if you grew up in a east you know in a new york or a cleveland or a pennsylvania or pittsburgh or whatever the thrill of being outside for a portion of the year.

50:23There's, I don't want to be in my house as soon as I could be outside in shorts and a t-shirt. I don't want to be inside. And the majority of the entertaining we do during that time of the year is outside. And so the last thing I want to do is have a party and I'm in the kitchen sweating and the party is, is a hundred feet away from me, you know? So I want to be part of the party. So I want to be outside. I want to add the flavor that the grill brings. I want to be, you know, enjoy the weather that is happening. And I want to be in the party. Yeah. And you're definitely the focal point of the party when you're grilling, which is nice.

51:04Yeah. It's nice to be the center of the party. I like attention. You know, attention is great. I'm a Virgo. So when you host Tailgate, what's it looking like right now? I mean, well, back in the day, it used to be like in the parking lot, grills, craziness. I'm not going to lie now. Now I go and I enjoy the food. You know, stadiums and arenas used to not have great food. Now they do, you know. So I tend to tailgate a touch less and enjoy what the stadium gives me. That's, you know, if you have like club level tickets, not to say you do. I do. Like we do. Look, I'm like bougie. It used to be, especially at Brown Stadium, there was no club level.

51:46There was no loges. There was no indoor seating. There weren't suites. You were part of the elements. That's how it worked. And as I got older, and occasionally Liz will come to me with the game, so club level was the best move for us. Yeah, and let those cooks cook, man. Just walk into the stadium, have some great food, than watch a game that this last season wasn't good for you guys. I'm sorry. No, it sucked. Yeah. Yeah, it was terrible. But I think you have a nice future. All right, back to the book. All right. You really, you open it really wisely. You know, there's that dreaded things to go with grilling ideas that kind of get thrown at the front.

52:28But you don't do that. You have, it's expansive, which I like. You don't even get to the meat until like page 60 or so. I'm thinking these feta waffles, Like you're saying, let's do feta waffles for a grill out, which is like, holy shit, that's super smart. So tell me a little bit about the waffles in this opening chapter. Well, like for me, the waffle started as, you know, chicken and waffles. Yeah. And I'm Greek. So I'm like, all right. There's like, you know, I'm not adverse to chicken and maple syrup and butter and honey and a waffle. It's delicious. you know but as a mediterranean kid i'm like there's got to be a more delicious way to do this or something that fits my dna a little bit better so you know we started playing around with waffle batters that had the feta and some other things folded into it which now you're you get to play with salty and sweet which is always like if you're cooking at home and you want a flavor that's going to make your guests happy.

53:30Salty and sweet is always a good place to start. And yeah, it's just about having a little bit of fun. And we've done them with like waffle irons that you throw into the fire. Those are fun, like the analog ones. Yeah, a blast. That's like Little House in the Prairie style. Absolutely. And as a chef, I love that kind of stuff. But you could bring, if you have electricity outside, you could bring a waffle maker outside or you could obviously do them in the house too. But yeah, you just treat it like a regular waffle. but the ingredients are savory. So you have this lovely feta waffle that could go great with chicken, go great with pork.

54:06You know, the Greeks, we love feta and like shellfish. So you could side them, you know, some grilled shrimp. They could hang out next to that. Like, so there's a lot of versatility there. There's a lot of great seafood in the book. We'll get to that. But first, rice spetzel on the grill. Never seen that. Wow. Into that idea. What inspired you to say, you can do rice spetzel on the grill? Well, again, I always set my grill up so one side's ripping, one side's basically no coals. So on the ripping side, I put a pot of water, you know, and, you know, we boil the water like we would inside on our stovetop.

54:40And, you know, if I'm doing a pork chop or pork loins or something like that that I think is so great with rice pretzel, I could put the pot up top, get it boiling, get the pork chops or whatever meat I'm cooking on, get the pretzel going. and again, you're outside, you're cooking outside, clean up's a little bit easier, you're not sweating in your kitchen. It makes a lot of sense too, like as this kind of quasi-dumpling that you're doing with these really big cuts of meat and grilled vegetables, it's a beautiful carb grain to do there. You know, I mean, look, people are always amazed how like speciality, how easy it is to make, you know, and it's just a battering, and just cut it into boiling salted water.

55:25It's super easy. And just a great side. Like, you know, I love a good old-fashioned potato, but I get sick of it as the quote-unquote starchy side all the time. Let's talk about grilling scallops. It seems very intimidating. Why is it not? Well, I feel like there's certain shellfish, especially, that you need to think of. Like this needs to be cooked quickly. Scallops, shrimp, lobster, certain different even fillets of fish. You know, it doesn't have to be shellfish. So it shouldn't be intimidating because like if you have a large, a large scallop and you get your grill ripping, just like you would a pan if you were doing it in a pan with brown butter.

56:16And you set that scallop down on the very hot grill and you just, you don't touch it. You just let the magic happen for a couple minutes, give it a flip, and then it's done. Like, so on a hot grill, and then you move them to your side of the grill that's with no coals. And in three minutes, you have dinner. Yeah. Like, what's easier than that? Yeah, it's kissing the grill, essentially. You're not overdoing it. Yeah, but you can't. Everyone wants to flip stuff too fast. Agree. And if you grab it and it's sticking, it's the, the protein is trying to tell you to leave me alone. Like I am, I am not ready.

56:57You know, it's, it's like, it's kind of like when your alarm goes off in the morning, but you're not ready to wake up yet. So you don't get your ass out of bed. You just sit there for another second, gather your thoughts, and then you get out of bed. when you grab the scallop and the scallop is holding on to the grill, it is doing its best to tell you, I need a minute. Like, just give me a minute. And then when it releases, it's ready. It's time to wake up. Time to wake up. Love that. Let's talk about swordfish. It feels to me, Michael, that swordfish is having a moment on the restaurant scene.

57:34Tell me about your recipe for swordfish and do you agree with me? I think it is having a moment. I think a lot of it is a lot of chefs, sadly not all, are responsible when it comes to, you know, the ecosystem and everything else. And, you know, swordfish got really overfished in the 80s and even the early 90s. And then it became endangered, you know. So we were pulling more swordfish out of the ocean than we needed to. It's in a good place again. It's always been a popular fish because it's a relatively easy fish to cook. And it's for, I feel for people that are seafood frightened. It's a very good starter fish.

58:22You mean frightened of cooking it? And eating it. And eating it too. Cool. You know, like, it's funny. Like, a lot of people are like, I don't like seafood, but I know I want to, I got to start eating seafood. I think I'm going to start with salmon. No, dummy. Like, salmon is a strong tasting fish. Like it's, and if you overcook it, then it's a really strong tasting fish. So they don't think they like the way that seafood tastes. And then they start with one of the more oily, stronger tasting fishes. Swordfish is mild. It eats a little bit like a steak. Like I could, like for my like hardcore Midwest carnivore friends, I could do a swordfish preparation similar to a steak preparation and they're going to be very happy.

59:02I really enjoy that fish. I feel like there's something about it that has a texture and like when it has it like holds flavor in a way that's really it's meaty is what you're saying. It's meaty. Terrific, terrific seafood recipes in this book. I'm really excited about it, man. The pork butt steak. Not as common. And you lean into pork quite a bit. Yeah, it's underrated. Talk about your ideas with the pork butt steak. You know, well, first off, you know, he is past, but Mike Mills, who to me is one of the greatest pitmasters in the history of America.

59:43Illinois. Yeah, Illinois. And when when Mike was alive, for whatever reason, he took a liking to me. and I spent a lot of time with him at festivals in his at his restaurants and and he loved pork like when when when you knew that Mike Mills like you liked you he made you a pork steak um and it's just it's a in this day and age where meat is so expensive it's an inexpensive cut it cooks up relatively quickly you could smoke it you could grill it you could wrote there's a million different ways you can prepare it. And it has that great intermuscular fat in it, which gives it a very deep flavor.

1:00:29You know, it's just a delicious cut of meat right out of the butt. And your sauce has Dr. Pepper in it and cherries. And I feel like pork and Dr. Pepper, that's taking me somewhere. It's taking me on a trip. You know, it's a little, it's like I typically don't lean – real far into the sweet i'm more of an acidic guy but every once in a while i you know i like a dish to be slightly trashy yeah um in the and i mean that in the in the good sense um and i i just when i was a kid we weren't my mom didn't let us i'm you're gonna really show my cleveland we weren't allowed to drink pop oh yo i'm from west michigan we call it pop soda for No, we call that pop in this podcast.

1:01:17I know, it's pop. It's pop going forward. So we weren't allowed to drink pop. Only on special occasions were we allowed to drink pop. And it was usually like graduation, confirmation, one of the Asians. And it was always, the party was always in the garage. There was a keg of beer for my dad and his cohorts and uncles and such. and then there was uh my mom would set up a little cooler with pop and she would put i like dr pepper was my pop of choice when i was allowed to drink pop so i was uh uh i i didn't drink coke or pepsi or all the like weird colored sodas yeah or all the remember like the little bottles and there were like red ones light blue ones like what the hell was in those things dr pepper was always my jam.

1:02:09I liked Dr. Pepper. So, and it works really well in a barbecue sauce. It has all these different flavors in it. It's kind of a unique taste, you know, especially if you want to go down the road of cherry. I like it. You know, it just works for me. And you're marinating the pork butt in anything or is it just seasoned? No, it's just like a dry rub. A dry rub, basically just a dry rub. And you can get that at like the butcher shop. Yeah, I mean, you could make your own. You could, I mean, there's a, I mean, quite honestly, you could just do it with salt and pepper too and baste with the sauce. Love a good dry rub.

1:02:42All right, let's take a break from the grilling talk and talk about you're in the mustard business. I am in the mustard business. You are in the mustard, but you are in a CPG game. You are launching a mustard. You have launched a mustard. Tell me about it. We are, I am new to the mustard business. We have a little company called Pop Mustard. How about that word? It's like, just rolls off your tongue. Well, and also it's the only whole seed mustard on the market. Oh, wow. Cool. Um, so it's, it's whole seed pickled and fermented. We do three different flavors, a smoked original, which is like an IPA and, um, and a spicy we're getting ready to launch now.

1:03:16Nice. Um, but it pops in your mouth like caviar. Like initially we called it Cleveland caviar because we thought that was funny and cute, but then everybody thought it was fish. So, or, you know, actual caviar. Yeah. So now we just say, we like jokingly say it's the caviar of mustards. Like in my dream, I have a dream sometimes that remember, I'm a little bit older than you, but the Grey Poupon commercial when we were kids where the two like Rolls Royces pulled up. Sir, is that Grey Poupon? Is that Grey Poupon? Yeah, like I want to do it with pop. I like I want to do like a recreation of that with pop, but not make it bougie.

1:03:50Make it like, you know, Machine Gun Kelly and Drake. Oh, yeah. Get those guys. I like that. I like that. Like, is that the caviar of mustards, man? I feel like you've art directed this and created this already. Tell me about the actual mustard business. Is it a good business? Well, I mean, we're new to it. We launched about four months ago. Oh, wow, pretty new. We're in Sprouts. We're getting ready to be in Meyers next week. Nice. So we're in about 2 ,500 stores nationally so far and growing at a controlled climate. So, you know, I think it's going to be a great business. It was a gentleman by the name of Michael Januska had a company called Old Brooklyn Mustard in Cleveland and won several gold medals and world championships for his mustard.

1:04:42And to the point is we used to do these pickled mustard seeds at Lola and Mabel's. And Michael's were better than what we're making. And so we started using Michael and then we went into business together and formed a company because I thought his stuff was so special. And it also wasn't getting the recognition that he was getting the recognition, but he old Brooklyn mustard wasn't selling what it deserved to sell. So we we created pop. We limited the skews to start. He needed you to help it out. Like, you know, a Cleveland guy. Yeah. Who now lives in L.A. It just works. You know, it just it just works.

1:05:19We're he's a incredibly talented. What he does. Yeah. And, like, you know, I have very specific thoughts about flavor profiles and what I think people enjoy. So we've formed a really good team. And it's all produced in Cleveland. They're all, you know, no GMOs, properly raised mustard seeds, and we handle them with care. Love a Meyer reference. Love a Meyer reference. It's at Meyer. Here we go. Pot mustard. I love that. All right. A few more grilling questions. You know, we hear about dropping ribeyes directly on the coals. It's been done. You are like giving us permission that you can do it more often than not.

1:05:59Give us permission on this podcast because it seems a little intimidating. People are so afraid of it. Like we've been doing it. I've been doing it forever. And it's like not even outside on the grill. I used to do it in my fireplace in the winter, you know, when I didn't want to shovel out the path to the grill and we had a fire going in the house, I would throw the steaks right on the fire. Like on a grate? No, into the fire. Just right into the fire. And the fire is so hot, it sears the exterior of the steak and you get this beautiful crust and then you just brush anything off that you need to brush off.

1:06:39You brush it, yeah. Which is very minimal because the heat releases it like it would a grill. Yeah. And you get that great charn, great flavor. And, you know, I think the one we do in the book has anchovy butter on, which I love with steak. What's the timing when you're just dropping it in onto the coals? How does that work? Just look at it. You watch it. I mean, like, it depends on the thickness. But it's getting heat from all sides, typically. You might have to give it a flip. You know, if it's like a bone chop, you know, wrap the bone in foil because you don't want the bone to catch on fire.

1:07:09But it's just a really quick, easy way to do things. that adds tremendous flavor and gives you that, like, let's face it, anymore, most steakhouses are all capable of getting the same quality beef. Like, you know, used back in the day, like Peter Luger got so much better beef than everybody else, so it was the best steakhouse. Now, because of people like Pat LaFreda, you know, Pat is so great at finding and dry-aging meat that most steakhouses could get a quality of prime dry-aged beef that is insanity. So if everybody's on the same playing field level of beef they're getting now, it's who cooks it best that's going to win.

1:07:53So a great steakhouse always has great crust, like that great exterior crust. Like no one wants to eat a steamed steak. No. You know? So the crust is where the flavor comes from. When you drop something in the coals, you get a great crust. You get like a steakhouse quality crust because no one at home has an upright broiler that's 1 ,200 degrees. Yeah. That would be ill to have one of those in your backyard. It would be so good. But yeah, I get what you're saying. It makes sense. You're going to get that perfect crust with dropping it right on the coals. Yep, every time. I love the back of the book, this index you have.

1:08:29I just wanted to touch on that where it goes through every recipe and it says what's vegetables, what's gluten-free, what's dairy-free. I just want to, that's great. I like that. Look, I feel a book needs to be user-friendly for people to go back to it and use it constantly. You know, we did a couple books, Fix It With Food, because of my RA and discoid lupus and how you could figure out what is causing the inflammation in your body. So we use the back of the book to label things properly. So if people do suffer or are watching their diet based on inflammation, they could quickly scroll through the back of the book and say, okay, you know, these ingredients don't work well for me.

1:09:16I could look at the back of the book and I could go to this recipe and I could cook this recipe. Michael, and this is Taste We Asked Guest about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Well, why are you talking so fast now? Because we're going to talk fast. Fast and furious. Okay, it's fast and furious. I got it. All right. Fast and furious. The best fruit. The best fruit. Harry's Berry strawberries. Nice. California speaking there. Very specific. That's the greatest strawberry on earth. It's very, very true. The worst vegetable.

1:09:46Worst vegetable. Oh, I love most vegetables. Yeah. White asparagus. I don't get it. Yeah. And like they serve it all the time at John George restaurant. They ship it in from France. I love John George. I just don't get the white asparagus. Yeah, indeed. What is your typical breakfast? Typical breakfast is three eggs. They're prepared different on most days, but I do love crispy eggs with a good dash of hot sauce, some hard toasted sourdough bread. I usually do it in a grill pan and like a half of avocado with a bunch of sea salt on it. Indeed. What's the hot sauce? I have to ask. I change all the time.

1:10:25I'm very in. Oh, man. You know, I hate truffle oil, truffle this, truffle that, truffle this. Like, it makes me crazy. But I do like truff hot sauce. It works for me. It does. The best dessert. Best dessert of all time, and most people aren't going to agree with this, but my yaya made it for me when I was sad, rice pudding. Interesting. What draws you to it? Memories, texture, cinnamon. Yeah, cinnamon. It has to have that ring at the top of it. On top, the cinnamon on top. Like Liz and I went to a rice pudding store the other day and the rice pudding was delicious. And I ordered, I think it was called the classic or something with cinnamon.

1:11:06And the cinnamon was folded in, which I enjoyed. But I prefer the rice, the cinnamon on top and like the break of cinnamon on the bottom. Of course, it's like a creme boule, but with cinnamon. Correct. Was it rice to riches? It was. You went there. I love that that place still exists. Oh my God, I got a giant bowl. It's so good. I'm staying at the Ludlow. Yeah. We went to Rice to Rich's and then we went to this great new bar called Revival. Have you been to Revival? No, I haven't. Is it good? Fabulous. Yeah. Had a great time there. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead?

1:11:38I'd say Lola, but that's exhausting. Yeah. A restaurant I wish I could bring back from the dead. You know what? And I'm not just saying this because he's one of my dearest friends. I miss Mesa Grill. I do. I miss that old school Southwestern food that Bobby did at Mesa. It was cool. We talked about it on our episode with Bobby about coming back to New York, bringing back restaurants in the Bobby Flay style. Yeah, I miss Mesa. It was a pioneering restaurant. 100%. And Bolo too. Yeah, Bolo was great also. What a cool restaurant. So you guys kind of came up in similar eras. Oh, same era. I think that's why we're probably such good friends.

1:12:22are, yeah, we grew up around the same people. We came up around the same time. I started at Food Network. He started at 95. I started in 98, you know, so, yeah, we've known each other a long time. 98 at Food Network, and now you're still there. Like, do you get the holiday cards? It's had a lot of different ownership. Okay, there's not. But I do get a card every year. You get the card. I do get a card every year. You get the invite to the holiday party. Yeah, I don't know if there are still holiday parties. I haven't been invited to them, but I do get a card every year. They've been very good to me for a very long time.

1:12:56Well, you've been good to them. It's a very, very cool relationship you have with them. Yeah. A few more of these. When you're reaching for fast food, what's the choice? If I'm on the East Coast, is Shake Shack considered fast food? You know, one out of three times I ask the question, that is the caveat to the response. Because everyone, yes, it is fast food. They're an IPO'd company. They're on the, you know. And then when I'm on the West, I know people have been saying it for a long time. In-N-Out Burger just crushes. I just had one the other day. Their fries kind of suck, but their burgers are awesome.

1:13:34The fries at Five Guys and In-N-Out are terrible. Yeah. Just have to say that. But the burger is excellent. What a great company, too. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Palermo. Interesting. I love that choice. Why visit there? Sicily to me is the greatest place that you could go for food in the world because it's this beautiful melting pot of like Italy, Greece, and North African cuisine. Yeah. Do you go every year? Not. I used to. Not anymore. But I do. I love myself some Sicily. And I love Palermo. And I mean, I had some good trips to Marsala too, which are great. But yeah, Palermo, and it's great too.

1:14:23Like I feel as someone who's went to Italy a lot in their lifetime, it's like, it's harder now to get the true Italian experience than it was years ago. Like Rome almost feels like you're, you'd be in Manhattan, you know. But like, but Sicily still like, there's not a lot of Americans there. It's like you're there. So you're eating their food. Like they're not making food to make the American consumer happy. They're making food that makes them happy so you get like a true, true experience. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Peanut butter and jelly. Take me to break it down. Bread choice, butter choice, peanut butter choice.

1:15:06All right. I will say if my wife's listening to this, rarely a day goes by that I don't eat a peanut butter and jelly. But I, the bread shares changes a lot. Yeah. My attitude on the bread, not the, like sometimes I toast it, sometimes I don't. Sometimes, like if I toast it, it's more of like a artisanal type bread that I like to toast. If I'm just out of the fridge sandwich, I get the multi-grain, oh God, the dude's on the cover. What's it called? Oh, Dave's Killer. Dave's Killer, the thin one. The dude, yeah. The thin. Yeah, the like 80 calorie. Yeah, and it's not because of calories. I like the ratio that it can.

1:15:49Yeah, me too. So the Dave's Killer, thin, whole grain. Justin's peanut butter, which I've become fully addicted to. And often we make our own jams, often. And then often Katie Pickens, who was my culinary director for 20 years, her mom sends me – I make strawberry. Her mom sends me grape all the time. and then if I bought jam I'm a strawberry I like strawberry is what I lean into the most and again I know exactly what the label looks like but I can't it begins with an M it's a little clear glass jar looks kind of sexy but they make a very good strawberry jam I love that sandwich I feel like it's an underrated sandwich I love peanut butter like I could eat it out of the jar with a spoon like several spoons of them and like sometimes like I'll have a peanut butter or like a Nutella which I love doesn't make me quite as happy like a Nutella banana peanut butter and jelly man it's just it's delicious I like the choice Michael Simon thank you so much for joining This Is Taste alright thank you

1:17:01This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me Matt Rodbar the show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, Director of Media Production and Development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.