601: Plant-Based Around Every Corner with Mehreen Karim

30:19So we knew to advocate for that from the very beginning. But that's just an example. Yeah, I think it's really cool because it's an exercise in like similarity and also dramatic differences. And the result is a series of books that someone could buy or give to someone. And you could, you know, be focused on this mission of eating more in a plant-based way, but having that be expressed in very different ways. Yes, exactly. I think everyone got to be really honest about how they cook day to day at home and translate that into a book for beginners who maybe want to learn more about Mexican cooking.

30:55And they just happen to also not want to eat more meat or dairy or anything like that. Yeah. I want to talk about the aesthetic of the book also because I think it's really beautiful. You have these great photos that Emma Fishman shot. And I think like so many people, including myself, decide what they want to make in a cookbook largely based on the photos that stick out to them the most. I was curious like what that process was like if you were on set, like involved with the styling and just kind of how it felt to see the book come to life in that kind of way. Right. That's also so funny. I remember one of my first times hanging out with you in New York was with Emma.

31:33You and her were shooting nowadays or something. yes yes because i worked with emma when i was at bon appetit many years ago that is so funny that was one of my first i think that was the first time i ever met emma and then we realized she's from atlanta too anyway sorry then you guys do a project together exactly then she's shooting my cookbook that was wild um yeah i it was really beautiful to see how much detail went into the planning and how much they can produce and cook like on a cookbook shoot i think that was shocking to me um and to to see how elegant each photo turns out knowing that there's like a fast paced team just feet away from the backdrop and um box lights and everything it's it's really insane to see it all in the book now um because so much goes into making sure that like every element of every recipe is accounted for prepared um to me that's like one step above cooking at a restaurant is like cooking like food styling and the work that goes into that so one it was impressive to be on set for that because my only experience with that previously was seeing recipes be shot at bon appetit um and then on top of that i loved that styling was very, very intentional.

32:59And, you know, we had to create really intentional shot lists with details of like what elements can be on set, what elements cannot be on set. There were specific cultural implications that certain authors didn't want to make. So like they didn't want to see certain textiles. They wanted to make sure that maybe there's a recipe that is never eaten with a utensil like please do not have a utensil on set for that i think most of the authors got to be there on set for each of the books i was there for most of mine and then i wanted each author to have that same relationship with their shoot so it didn't make sense for me to be there for all of the books um but yeah it's it's lovely to see this lean towards what i would call like a patinaed slash like vintage feel to the way the dishes are plated and even I think the way the photos are color graded.

34:01Yeah. Yeah. I think it looks very timeless in a sense that like it's not hyper trendy in a way that some of the books that we've seen this year, but it also doesn't feel dated to me. It just feels like it's suspended in time. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. A lot of the textures and like the styling involved and the props were timeless. So I'm curious, like after, you know, I feel like these books are made and then there's this whole end to the process and then they finally come out into the world, like at this stage in the book process for your book and this whole series, like, do you think that your home cooking has been impacted at all by like working on all of these books?

34:40I have to laugh. Yes, my husband has never cooked more than he's clicked in the last two years for me while working on these. Because I was also pursuing these while doing pop-ups. So I was like burnt out in two different ways. And it's funny because I was, because I was so tired, we were eating so many more plant-based ingredients, namely tofu. Like we have so much tofu pasta at home in general. It's like one of our go-to meals is just like blending up tofu into a sauce and throwing that over cooked pasta. I mean, it's much more delicious than that sounds. It sounds good. Yeah, that's why we make it.

35:28It's like an Alfredo-ish pasta. Yeah. Similar to the pimento cheese pasta, as you were saying. So it's funny because, yeah, we just were leaning towards canned ingredients and like the pantry more often. And sometimes, I mean, obviously I still eat meat and I like share that to my social media and whatnot. And my pop-ups aren't always plant forward and more plant based. But my home cooking has definitely been impacted by one, the things I've learned from editing all the different books. and two, just wanting to be as low lift as possible. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there's another reason that might be impacting your desire to do that.

36:13And that is that you have another big co-op project on the way, which is a baby, which is so exciting. And I guess I was curious if you feel like you had any pregnancy cravings that were impacting the food that you were cooking, or if you think this idea of knowing that you are going to have another person to be cooking for in the future has kind of been making anything percolate for you? You know, I don't know what I would have done if I was developing the recipes at the same time as I had most of my cravings. So these recipes were all developed a year and a half ago, so right before. And did you have pregnancy cravings?

36:59No, I'm just I always have craving. So that's a thing I've learned. It's normal. Yeah. Like I'm going to wake up wanting what I want to eat and I'm going to eat it. And that hasn't changed. And that's that. Yeah. And that's that. What it has opened my eyes up to getting pregnant has opened my eyes up to the fact that, you know, one day I'm going to have to think critically about how I feed a child and how I introduce food to them and basically form their food psychology and relationship with food. And there's so much science out there about power dynamics when it comes to like feeding a child.

37:35Like you're going to eat this. Yeah, yeah. Like all of that has – we've all been really effed up, I think, by some traditional feeding cultures or like things that are normal to do. Like feeding a baby with an airplane spoon is like not the right thing to do. But that being said – What's an airplane spoon? You know, when you like open your mouth. You're not supposed to do that? No, because babies are supposed to experience the textures and flavors of foods like play. So they're supposed to use their little hands. Yes, they're supposed to make a giant mess. But what I'm trying to say more of is also that looking at the recipes in this book and the idea of having a kid that might have allergies.

38:18My nephew, who's one and a half now, and I cook for him when he comes over, my niece and nephew, whenever they come play with us, I have to think really critically about putting eggs and dairy. He's been vegan for the first year of his life, actually. And so I actually learned so much from developing these recipes and how to cook for him. And watching parents have to relearn everything they know about food to make food for their children makes me so sad because it becomes like a second job on top of becoming a parent. And so I feel really lucky that I'm kind of equipped now with the general knowledge to hopefully not feel so stressed if I have a child with food allergies or like if there are any restrictions I need to make.

39:09or the general practice of like going into my pantry, not having much to cook, but still finding a way to make something tasty. That's that's also what this book kind of celebrates as well. Like when you think you don't have much going on, if you have if you're if the back of your fridge has like really old miso and you have like a can of beans, you're actually quite set. and yeah I feel prepared now to take on the adventures of feeding maybe a very picky kid or maybe a sick kid whoever it is because of editing these recipes yeah I mean I think it is so surreal also to be promoting a book at the same time that you're like preparing to embark on a very different chapter of your life.

39:58I am straddling so many parts of my brain and I like to be consolidated. Like I want my purpose every day to feel contained by like a theme or that, I don't know. I mean, it's like my inability to multitask or focus, but if I don't feel convicted in what it is I'm doing 100%, then I'll stop. I like won't do anything and I'll find out what it is. I want to be saying or doing. And yeah, it's now that I'm focusing on promoting the book, I forget that I have a baby. There's a five pound child inside me. Yeah, that's surreal that you can forget. But I think, I don't know, I don't have kids myself, but it seems to be that the mentality is like, it always is going to be a yes and, right?

40:47Like you have this project of motherhood, and then you have all these other projects, professional, personal at the same time exactly there's there's so many people out there that naturally blend the two that i look up to like right now i i look at sola who who recently birthed a child yeah actually her uh delivery date and her book pub date were also like a month apart um i need i need advice yeah i need to reach out um and then emily mariko on on tiktok like of the like salmon bull fame of the salmon bull fame yeah she I think watching them to just continue to be the food personalities they always were and then there's a baby in tow and then it influences some of the things they say and do I don't know whatever balance they have going on from the outside at least seems really ideal to me and I hope to strike it one day yeah well if you need a babysitter along the way you know I'm on call yes please hi there it's Matt co-host of the show We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you.

41:53Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code.

42:33Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt. My friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting.

43:09I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar. It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always.

43:49That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Okay, I want to play a little rapid fire lightning round with you to close. Okay, yes. Favorite recipe in Make It Plant-Based Southern right now? The pancakes. The thing that you're bringing to the picnic? Dessert. Specifically cookies. Cookies. Are you making them or are you buying them at the bodega? I'm making them. Sorry, I would buy them at the bodega. No, you wouldn't. Yes, I would. Wow. I don't know you. What kind of cookie? Chocolate chip? No, depending on the season. I actually really like making cookies with jam, strawberry jam.

44:30Oh, yeah. I like those. Your go-to ice cream flavor to order? Anything akin to a chocolate brownie or a chocolate cake, specifically Brooklyn Blackout ice cream. Your favorite bakery in New York? Libre for the pain au chocolat. Your favorite special occasion restaurant in New York? Llama Inn for Lomo Saltado. Your go-to late night snack? This is actually my snack constantly throughout every day of the last year, string cheese. And I just had some at 3 a.m. last night when I couldn't sleep. How do you eat the string cheese? I bite it. Really? I'm a pragmatist. I don't want it getting under my nails and I chomp it.

45:24And yeah, my husband gets mad at me every time I do it. I'm so glad I asked this follow up. It's the hard hitting questions here. two condiments that you would bring like on a desert island uh spicy pepper jelly which there is a recipe for in my book so pepper jelly is spicy just to clarify for people usually it's fruit-based and then has some sort of chili in it that makes it spicy and sweet and then oh the second one uh mayonnaise preferred brand i mean sure cutie mayonnaise often, but I don't like Kewpie mayonnaise on things that I don't want to taste eggy. So sometimes on tuna salads, I don't like Kewpie mayonnaise.

46:09On bread, sometimes I don't like it. This is like the real southerner in you coming out with the different mayos for different situations. Wait, thank you for saying that because I don't like Kewpie mayonnaise on tomato toast. Oh, do you do like Duke's, Hellman's, something else? Right. Yeah, anything else because the the egginess is emphasized with like the sweetness of the tomato, I can smell the egg in the Kewpie. This isn't an attack on Kewpie. Stop talking about this because I don't like eggs, but I like Kewpie mayo and I'm worried that now I'm going to not get this out of my head. Yeah, you're going to smell it next time.

46:42And I wrote like one of my first stories for BA was like a deep dive on Kewpie mayo. And I'm its biggest fan. But again, I'm really picky. Okay, I'm changing the subject for my own good final question a fictional food scene like from a book or a movie that you wish you could eat in real life uh oh my gosh i mean obviously the typical answer is like these studio ghibli movies in ponyo there is a i don't eat ham i don't eat pork and there is a ham sandwich scene where ponyo who's like a little fish that turns into a girl eats it for the first time and it just looks like the most like salty slab of cured meat and she like chomps into it and you can tell it's springy yeah i loved cured meats i think in general so like bologna was a huge part of my life growing up i think that's what i feel when i see that scene is like i want my childhood bologna sandwich well now i'm gonna be thinking about that for a long time renee thank you so much for coming on this show this is so much fun and congratulations on the book series.

47:47Thank you so much, Eliza. Brenda Jagota, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. I know. It's really fun for us to get to talk in person because I feel like normally it's like a Word doc editing email based relationship, which is so much less fun. I know. I know. Yeah, I'm so happy to. Yeah, it's great to be here. And I feel like we've worked on so many different kinds of stories together too. So it's like a very like, yeah, a very active Google Docs like friendship. And then to be here is really nice. In real life, I feel like I'm kind of getting away with something because I don't know how much you would have identified as like a food writer a couple of years ago.

48:29But because you wrote something for me for Cakezine that was like Trojan horse music food story, I feel like I've kind of been bringing you over a little bit. No, that's exactly it. That's like I'm yeah, I'm primarily a food writer. I worked at Pitchfork for a number of years and I did social there, but I also wrote for them. And I have been doing music writing for forever. But then I yeah, then with you, I wrote that one music food story. And then since then, we've been working on food stories, which has been really fun for me. the story for Cake Scene, which I guess I'll just say in brief because it is such a funny Trojan horse, was it was for the humble pie issue that we did about pie and humility and humiliation.

49:09And do you want to maybe say briefly what that story was? There's this venue in DC that, um, that called Pie Shop that puts on like punk shows, actually all kinds of shows. And they also sell pie and they sell like, uh, like pie inspired by Girl Scout cookies. And then like savory pies like an Irish I forget what some kind of like Irish pie and so it's just like this really cool cool place so I interviewed the one of the one of the people who runs it yeah and it was this idea that like they're an indie music space they probably wouldn't be able to keep the rent up and like keep their doors open on their own but because they're also selling pie they have the second revenue stream that keeps them going which I love because I feel like I go to shows here all the time in New York and there's never good snacks at the venue.

49:53I agree. Yeah. And something that I just like, I like this like kind of contrast between like intense, like, you know, punk music or like a DIY venue and then like the kind of whimsy of pie and just knowing that like people want both and people contain multitudes. And, you know, I thought that that was kind of fun. Yeah. And I feel like it was mostly about like the humble pie thing was like, this is kind of like a humble place that's using pie to support itself. But I feel like we didn't really get into this, but I would think that like DIY scene, there is this weird like pie association. Like when I was growing up in LA, I would go to a lot of DIY shows, also very much in like the kind of biking community where people would like cycle around and there would always be like a random vegan pie or something.

50:37Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe. Well, I think the vegan element is definitely part of it. Somehow it's like, I don't know, like something about a cake. I don't know. I personally just like as a home baker really struggle with making a vegan like buttercream, for example, like for a cake. I think it would be easier to make a vegan pie. But also like something about like a pie, I think it has this kind of like humility associated with it where a cake can feel. And especially the way we like the kind of cake trend of like those Marie Antoinette cakes that have been really big for the last few years feel really decadent.

51:09Whereas a pie feels much more like earthy and like solid. Solid. like your grandmother's recipe, like that kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay, so we're here to talk about like two stories that you've done for Taste that I think are both kind of on this really interesting beat of maybe like internet food trends that are rooted in real life implications. And I feel like as an editor, I'm kind of like allergic to people will often pitch me and be like this TikTok trend, like, and it's just something that's happening online. And I feel like it doesn't actually connect to reality. But I think your recent tiramisu story really kind of hits on both of those things.

51:45And I was wondering if you could just kind of tell me a little bit about like where that idea came from and how you would kind of describe the thrust of this piece, which we've titled The Expansive Absurdist Canvas of Tiramisu. Yeah, yeah. So the idea for the story started a few years ago, actually, when I was just online looking through my like reels or whatever. I kind of noticed like different iterations of tiramisu recipes popping up, like a limoncello one and a matcha one. And I was just saving them because I was noticing this trend and I was like, hmm, it didn't it didn't feel like a story at the time.

52:17It just felt like a little bit of a trend. Like maybe this is what you're talking about, where it's like this one thing is trending, but it didn't feel at the time like there was something broader. There isn't like a why. There isn't a why. Yeah. So I just kind of I literally have like a folder on my Instagram, like saved of all these tiramisu videos from 2023. And I just was like, let me just sit on this until something else happens with this. and then um i then when i really started paying attention was like a few months ago uh when the yankees like announced that they were selling tiramisu in their like helmets and i'm like which to be clear like miniature yeah miniature miniature helmets i'm like so not a sports person that i didn't realize that like that's a thing they do you know it's like a miniature helmet and it's like uh they've done it with ice cream for a while and stuff so i was just like shocked by that i was like what is going on um so i kind of started doing research into like and people were also kind of thought it was funny and were writing bits about it you know like little pieces about it so that that was like what really caught my attention where i was like wow tiramisu is really like having this moment um so then i just started kind of doing some research and i was like wow it's like it's not just you know it's not just the yankees it's also like lint made a tiramisu flavor and there was this viral like tiramisu brownie recipe and then also i was like it made me also realize i had been seeing it on city and like people making weird surreal tiktoks using tiramisu.

53:35Yeah, this is where I kind of fixated on this. And I apologize because I've sent you like a million videos to fall into this format of people making tiramisu in unexpected vessels. But I think the first one I saw was someone who made tiramisu in a city bike basket, but it was like a tractor truck bed or a bathtub, all of these kind of like, why would you put tiramisu and that kind of thing. And in the piece, you kind of go down this rabbit hole of like, where did this come from? And it actually came from a restaurant with a very real purpose. Yeah, yeah. That's also been so fun to like trace back like where the trend came from.

54:14And also in the process to see how we got to this place. So yeah, so it started with Onda, which is a restaurant in Manchester in the UK. And at the time in 2023, they were a pop-up. And so they were just kind of doing, They just like wanted to make their lives easier, you know, so they like did what is a common restaurant practice of like prepping things, prepping ingredients, having it in a drawer or whatever. But they did it with a full tiramisu and they had this tiramisu drawer that they brought to like wherever they were serving food. And then, yeah, and then one of the people who runs the restaurant isn't the chef.

54:49And he made that distinction because he said it gave him this insight into this practice being a little unusual. Like he just saw the chef using it and was like, huh, that's like weird for to do for a full ready made tiramisu. And he posted it on their TikTok and it just like blew up in 24 hours, basically. Yeah. And it's from this place of you want to have tiramisu prepped for dinner service so you can just scoop it out. And if you put it on a drawer into a fridge, then it's just easy. But I think when you post the video of it, then everyone is like fantasizing about what they would do if they had a drawer full of tiramisu in their homes.

55:24Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that was the start of it because it was and Tiramisu had already been kind of like having this cultural moment around that time. And that's something that Patty, that's the owner of Onda, a co-owner, that's what he was saying to like people were, you know, people were making it. People were making those like iterations on on reels. And so they people had a sense of familiarity and interest in it. But then what they presented was something pretty new. So it was like this mix of familiarity and kind of newness. Yeah. And then I think the most natural progression was some creators started taking the like produce drawer in your fridge that you would put oranges in and filling that with tiramisu.

56:04And then it just got crazy. And something that you did in the piece that I really appreciated was you really went into like how much of this is actually tiramisu, like in these kind of fantastical servings. And it seems like there maybe is some kind of like Hollywood movie magic going on. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah. So from the from the fridge drawer, it's now like as we were talking about, it's become it. You know, it's now in city bikes. It's in tractors. It's in like really weird places. But I spoke to a content creator who she said, well, she didn't want to like say this for sure, but she thinks she's the first person to do the city bike tiramisu.

56:42She's like, I don't know. Should you be proud? I know. She's like, I don't know. Don't don't get me on the record saying this. So, yeah, so she but the way she explained her process is like there's kind of like almost a false bottom. Like it's like a kind of a tiny amount of it. And you just kind of spread. You put that little container into the bigger container and you like just spread the whipped cream around the edges. So it kind of looks like the whole thing is filled with tiramisu, but it's not. It's actually very easy to clean. And she says she eats it like the little amount she eats with her friends.

57:12So there's no like food waste. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, like what you think of the reception of these videos and if you think that's impacted the way that like people are maybe seeking out tiramisu in, you know, restaurants, like places where you would normally receive it. Because I think sometimes when things go viral, like there's a negative there's like this is wasteful or like there's like a backlash. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I feel like it's interesting because if I think of it now, like the way that those videos are being made is just gross. Like it is like it doesn't I don't know that the like but these videos have really picked up maybe in the last few months.

57:55But before that, what we were talking about with like the fridge, the fridge video or like the fridge drawer, I think that that does kind of incite a sense of like desire or like wanting the wanting the tiramisu. Because that was the kind of comment that was being made all the time then was like, this is how much tiramisu. I want this on my bedside table. Like, this is how much I want. Like, yeah, it was all about indulging and like kind of this way of being like, I love dessert. Like, I love tiramisu. And I think it built up a sense of hype. And then that huge outsized amount of desire like plunged into this like weird, surreal, kind of disgusting realm.

58:29Yeah, you kind of talk about this duality in the piece. I think it's like something along the lines of everything is tiramisu and tiramisu isn't everything. So, you know, you can be doing matcha tiramisu or experimenting with flavors or you can be experimenting with the container that it's held in. But I think the core driving fact behind both of those is that like tiramisu is delicious and not that hard to make. And so it's a very like accessible trend for people to get on board with as opposed to a princess cake, for example, that has all of those layers and the homemade marzipan and things like that.

58:59Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think at the end of the day, it's like just a very it's like almost a tabula rasa. It's like a it's a it's a dessert that most people can conceive of making and can also kind of imagine the way it tastes. They're familiar with it. But at the same time, it's like not, you know, it's it still has a sense of like kind of maybe humble luxury to it. It still feels exciting. It still feels like something you might get on your birthday or whatever. Something like that, you know. And going back to Onda, the like tiramisu drawer heard around the world, it kind of revolutionized their business.

59:30Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That which is really crazy. They were able to as soon as the video went viral, they were like kind of booked out for the next like nine months or something, they said. And it was like they when they got all those bookings, they felt so confident in their business that they were like, we can start a brick and mortar like store. And they've been running that since then. And Patty told me that like two or three times a week someone comes in to order. Like it's still going strong to order the tiramisu. Sabrina Carpenter just came in to try it. So, yeah. That's so crazy. They have to do like the kitchen tour where you can see the drawer as part of the service now.

1:00:06Literally. I think so. I think people do come to like see the drawer. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of the other piece you wrote for Taste recently, which is called Indian Pizza is Extremely Online, which is also kind of tracing this virtual trend that's been impacting business for people. And I guess, can you tell me about like what would you define as Indian pizza? And like when was the first time you encountered that? Okay. So, yeah. So Indian pizza in India is like really is really crazy. And it's the first way that I consumed it was like today you can get it with like momos in the crust. That's like so wild.

1:00:42Yeah. And like you go to a, you know, you go to an Indian pizza place and it like feels really fun and it feels like a kind of an event to go. Same thing with like if you go to McDonald's in India, it feels really fun. Like people have birthday parties there, that kind of thing. So it's like a slightly different vibe. So that was how I first encountered it. And then the phenomenon of Indian pizza in America, I really got into through a viral video at this place called Pizza Twist that I was like just really fascinated by. And I think that's how I first pitched it to you. I was like, oh, like, look at this crazy video.

1:01:15And you're like, oh, like, let's talk about Indian pizza a little more broadly. Yeah. And I think it is a fool's errand to try to describe memes or viral videos without showing them. But I do kind of want you to maybe briefly venture to describe, like, what was the video and maybe what about it was so compelling to you? Because I think we all are consuming a lot of, you know, over the top absurdist content online all the time, but it doesn't necessarily stick out. Yeah. Yeah. So the specific video that stuck out to me was there's like this guy on like, you know, like kind of on one knee, like proposing to this woman or asking her out on a date or whatever.

1:01:54And he has this like bag on his head, which is like strange. So that caught my attention immediately. And I think a lot of creators are trying to catch your attention in the first three seconds. That's like a big part of what gets video boosted in the algorithm. So sometimes they'll do something weird visually like that. And you're like, what's going on? So anyway, so he's like proposing to this woman. And she's like, ew, no, like stay away. Stay away from me. And then he takes off the bag and he like unzips his coat. Or no, he never takes off the bag. He just unzips his coat and you realize he works at Pizza Twist.

1:02:25and she's like oh my god she unzips her own code she also works at pizza so i don't even know why she's so impressed but she is and she's like oh my god let's go on a date like pizza twist that's amazing and then he's like no and then he then he's back he's like behind the in the kitchen he's like chopping vegetables and then like drake starts playing and it's kind of like this thing like you didn't want me when you didn't know who i was and now you know i work at pizza twist and i don't want you and he has this pizza that has like paneer and onion and cilantro and chili and all these delicious things on it yeah yeah that's the video yeah that's the video and it's it really caught my attention because it it i thought it really like was a bizarre and like interesting kind of uh like mixture of what i had seen on like indian social media of like this trope of like like i'm gonna ask you out and you don't realize how cool you don't realize how secretly handsome i am and you're gonna say no and then you're gonna regret it and it's like this weird like trope and then I saw it applied to an American context you see Drake you see the pizza and like I just thought it was this really perfect fusion of different social media kind of memes and tropes and that's what caught my attention at first yeah and then when you actually went to Pizza Twist and talked with the powers that be they're having like real financial success off of these viral videos and I think that's the like the editor in me that's the part where I'm like this is clearly translating into something what exactly it's translating into is the point of the story to kind of expand upon in the same way that you're talking about what is Indian pizza as a cuisine?

1:03:58How has it been evolving and changing? Like, who is the audience for Indian pizza in the same way as who is the audience for these videos? Yeah, exactly. And that's something that I kind of grapple with. Like, I think on one hand, these videos like really a lot, and I think it's a trend that's happening with a lot of like POC run restaurants right now are making this kind of, are making like meme or like surreal videos to show off their restaurant. And I think in a way it allows them to like, I think people, I interviewed like Kush Bouchard for this. And what she said, what I thought was great was like, people are becoming more adventurous eaters because they, people aren't just static.

1:04:36Like they can be influenced by this kind of content and influenced to try things that they might, you know, they might not like walk by pizza twists. They might not go in if they're walking by it, but if they see this video, they might be influenced. So that's one element of it. But at the same time, I do like kind of wonder about who the audience is for for these videos. I think like I when I spoke with the people who make the videos, they were talking about knowing that like some of it is intentionally cringy and knowing that they're going to get hate comments and in a way almost like farming for those.

1:05:06And so I don't think that's all of it, but I think that's part of it. And I do consider like, is this in any way like a weird performance to incite like kind of hate comments or something? And how is that like a weird performance of otherness or weird racial performance? And is that a net positive thing or not? Like on the one hand, you're making people more you're making people aware of your your restaurant. But on the other hand, like, do you have to do that in a way that's like cringy or weird? Yeah, I think maybe it speaks to this larger digital phenomenon, which is like good or bad views are more views.

1:05:38And especially like when there's so much general food content happening online these days, like maybe the way to break through that algorithm is if you make something that is just so. unusual or unexpected that you can reach an audience that otherwise wouldn't receive it. Exactly. Exactly. And I think like what I just realized really working on the tiramisu piece too was that, you know, when you're making content online and that's the main way you're consuming it, like you obviously, I mean, it's obvious when you say it, but it's like you can't taste it, you can't smell it. So the experience of eating the food comes second to every other thing that the food represents.

1:06:10Yeah. I think the other thing that's interesting is it's showing the staff as the stars of the video, which when I worked at Bon Appetit in, you know, 2018, 2019, like the big era of the Test Kitchen YouTube channel, that was totally based around having the employees be the stars and having people feel like they know them. And if I've seen a lot of Pizza Twist videos and then I go into their New Jersey location and that guy, I guess he has the bag on. So maybe this whole plan doesn't make sense. But if you could see who he was, it would be like a celebrity. There are lots of videos where you can see who they are.

1:06:42So yeah. So you're I was like, I'm spinning out because I didn't see a lot of these videos before you started writing the piece. But I think there's a parallel version that, you know, I watch a lot of videos in Spanish on social media. So I got a lot of videos of like family run Mexican restaurants that it would be like like an ocean wave crashing. And then it would cut to like a woman working at this restaurant getting a bucket of water thrown over her. And then she's like soaking wet and saying, like, come to whatever, Valentina's Taqueria. and like that whole, have you seen like that version?

1:07:14Yeah, I've seen, I have seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. Or it'll be like a car crash and then like it'll cut to her like lying on the ground. Yeah, and I sometimes feel like, well, I don't know exactly what like, you know, cinematic traditions that is pulling from, but I can say for the Indian ones, like they are pulling from the melodrama of Bollywood. Like those are the kinds of scenes that you see in a Bollywood movie. And like in that sense, what is so cool about it is I think it, It genuinely like the hybridization of the online content does reflect the hybridization of the food, too.

1:07:48And that that is like the kind of positive spin on it and like the kind of thing that's most exciting to me about it. Yeah. Yeah. I think in that sense, it does make it seem like it is speaking to a target audience as of people who understand that context and who think it's fun to be riffing off of it. Yeah. Yeah. And like they would do things where they like will say like come in for I don't know like a or if this if you tag this person, you know, a person with this name like they owe you a pizza and they do lots of like Indian names. So I think in that way, it's also like cultivating a specific audience, like you're saying.

1:08:20Yeah. I mean, I think that's really special because, you know, I have a name that's not common and I have a whole childhood of walking past like the places that sell license plates. And like there's never an Eliza or a Vrenda license plate. Exactly. So if there's like a buy a pizza for Eliza and Brenda video, like I'm sending that. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So in that sense, it's like it's just like kind of fun. I don't know. I like it. Yeah. I think both of these are really like fun, positive stories ultimately, which I think like there is so much viral online content that feels like it's, you know, maybe not main spirited, but maybe not so earnest.

1:08:53And I think the tiramisu in unexpected places and the unexpected ways of marketing Indian pizza are both kind of like a wholesome story. Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's fun to just like, it's fun to see people seeing themselves in a food, I guess. Yeah. And I think that's also a little bit of what I was saying of like, you know, in some ways, maybe if you're like a purist, you might feel like, you know, like the food coming second to all these other connotations might mean, you know, like in the case of the creator, like the creator I interviewed for the piece, She always talks about how she like does things that make people feel weird.

1:09:28She will like she won't season her food or she'll break the pasta in half when you're not supposed to do that to boil it or whatever. And that might lead to food that doesn't taste as good, you know. But at the same time, these other connotations of food that kind of take the foreground online, I think, can be really cool. Like the way food can like we're talking about with the Indian pizza can represent a kind of hybridized lived experience or the way like the person making it can represent an aspirational lifestyle or just like a like a person you like to watch online. You know, like, yeah, I think that can just be a fun part of what food means.

1:10:02And and for tiramisu, I think it can just really mean like a sense of escape. But also, like, I think it's a really communal food. And I think that's something people like about it is that it's like this big amount. You imagine it at a dinner table and you're all taking a scoop together, like with your with your friends or whatever. So, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I think we're talking a lot about kind of viral online food things. But I feel like probably the way that you eat in your day to day life is a little bit more offline. And I'm curious if to close, you would want to maybe tell me a little bit about like where you've been enjoying to eat in New York lately and if social media has impacted that at all.

1:10:38Totally. Yeah. Eating for me, I would say the two biggest parts of it for me are like social. Like I love I love getting like a big group of people. I love going. I do honestly love going to the same place over and over for like someone's birthday. Like I like when someone has a tradition of going somewhere. And it's also very visual. Like I love I love like a beautiful backyard. And so I'm like always going to like Sergina. I love their backyard. My favorite restaurant in all of New York is Cafe Himalaya. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I like it there. Yeah. I love it. I don't know why. I just there's never a wait.

1:11:12And the food is amazing. The momos are so good. And I just love the ambiance. And I like the people who go. I don't know. So I go there like for my birthday every year. I like everyone who's ever visited me in New York, I take there. What's your momo order? I get the beef and I get the beef momos and I get them fried. Oh, they're really. And then I get rice and you just like open it up on the rice and the juices get on the rice. So good. So, yeah, I think I think when I do find a place online, sometimes it's when it has like a funny visual angle. Like I've been meaning I was looking through my saved like restaurants or whatever.

1:11:46And I've been meaning to go to Time and Tide because they have that giant goldfish cracker. I'm like so those are the things that draw me in but I do end up just going to my favorite places like Cafe Himalaya. I love Tibetan food I go to Cafe Tibet in like South Brooklyn a lot. One of my friends we go there every year for her birthday and I did find one of my favorite restaurants ever via TikTok actually Kashkar Cafe. Have you ever been there? It's in Brighton Beach. No I haven't been but I like Brighton Beach a lot It's so fun because, yeah, because you're at the it's like my favorite beach food place to go.

1:12:22And they have some of the best kebabs I've had like ever. And you saw like a food person go there probably. Yeah, I saw I just like follow some like food TikTok account and they were like, you have to check this place out. And I was like, OK, I definitely do. So, yeah, it's funny. Like it does work that way sometimes. Over the weekend, I went to a new Thai tea dessert place around like maybe 23rd Street. It's called Noir, N-U-A-R. But whenever I read it, I think of like how Australian people say no. Noir. Yeah. You're braver than me. I'm not going to venture that. But I saw it on social media and I was like, I don't know, this looks really beautiful.

1:13:00I hope it's actually good. And the Thai tea that I got was really good. But specifically, the oat milk one was much better than the regular one. I don't know why, but that's my hot tip to you. OK, good to know. Good to know. Cool. Yeah, I think I think it can be hard with finding places online because like like you're saying, it's like, is it going to actually be the way they were? You know, it can be so easily misrepresented and it's hard to like something I love about Ambi, like I'm saying, I love like a beautiful backyard or whatever. But I also love like I love going to a place I love like Desi restaurants or like Afghan restaurants or Tibetan restaurants that feel like where all the like uncles are going to drink their chai.

1:13:37And that doesn't always get translated very well in a TikTok or that's not even what most influencers are trying to capture. Yeah. And then I think there's a flip of that, which is like I just saw a Subway take on Instagram that was like this white guy talking about how the best Chinese restaurants are the ones that like scare away white people. I think sometimes it flips over and people are like, if there's not a child working behind the counter, then it's not going to be good. Right. The idea that it's so not made for Instagram that makes it authentic. And I think, I don't know, there's a wide variety of experiences you can have.

1:14:10I agree. Yeah. I think that sometimes people go way too far. It becomes like a fetish of like wanting a specific kind of ethnic. Like, like, actually, something I mentioned in the pizza piece was that, like, people have this they really want ethnic food to be cheap and they want it to be like like you're saying they want it to be like a child is working behind the counter. And that's not fair. It's not. Yeah, we don't want that at all. And it's also not fair to, like, have a very specific and kind of fetishy idea of what the food is or what the culture is or whatever. Yeah, but I do think, to your point, there's something nice about being in a place that you know hasn't been built to attract a specific very online audience, but like rather has been built to make really good food.

1:14:51Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then people come to you over and over and, you know, I don't know that people feel kind of at home in. Yeah, yeah. Well, this has been so fun talking with you, and I can't wait for you to write some more stories for Taste so we can talk about them some more. Me too. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun.

1:15:12This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell, logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.