602: The Novel ‘Food Person’ Loves Cookbooks, Has Suspicions About Food Media with Adam Roberts

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. It happened to me, actually, when I had my food blog, the Food Network came calling. Oh, yeah. And they had me shoot a pilot or shoot a test video. And I wrote this whole script. And I was on a soundstage at the Food Network. And there was a whole crew on the set with cameras and lights and stuff. And I just froze. I literally just froze. Because I couldn't remember what I had to say. And it was one of the most mortifying experiences of my life. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. The great Adam Roberts is back in the show, and I couldn't be more happy to speak with him about his terrific debut novel, Food Person.

1:06You may know Adam from his pioneering food blog, Amateur Gourmet, but I know him now as a fiction writer, digging into the world we talk about here often on the show, food media, cookbooks, collaborations, and all the behind-the-scenes drama that can pop up. Adam has written an incredible universe in this novel, and we talk about how he wrote it and how cookbooks truly inform their writing. And at the top of the show, it's the return of three things, where Eliza and I talk about what is exciting us in the world of restaurants, cookbooks, and the food world as a whole. I hope you enjoy this episode.

1:42Eliza, we're back at three things. How are you? I'm good, Matt. How are you? I'm great. I think you just returned from a trip. Yeah, I was just in Chicago, which is one of my favorite cities to visit, especially when it's nice out for a friend's wedding. So I did a lot of wedding things, but I had a couple eating adventures, of course, that I can share as well. Maybe I'll start with a really great lunch that I had. Shirley and I were trying to find a place to eat. We wanted to go to Kusama, but the line is just so intense that we figured we would just go to Ukrainian Village in that neighborhood and look around for a spot.

2:16We ended up at a really good Chinese place called La Panyo, which means old friend in Mandarin. And everything that they had there was really so delicious. We like tried to rank our favorites. And I think the top couple were they do really good dumplings. We got pork and chive classic. They come in like a chili broth, basically, with sesame seeds and like all kinds of like pickled things. And so you're kind of like slurping on the broth and eating these dumplings. Also, their house noodle soup was so, so good. They do like beef noodle soup and kind of like protein rich, like hearty soups. But the house noodle soup is just thin noodles and the spiced soy broth that has some infused lard and green onion in it.

2:56And it was really like delicate, light, well-balanced, kind of cold. So like perfect. And then I guess the third thing I'll mention is their cucumber salad had like the most cilantro I've ever experienced on a cucumber salad before. So much. It felt like confetti and you kind of mix it through. But it was really light and fresh and delicious. And I just really liked this restaurant. It's called La Panyo. That's great. I love this pairing with cucumber salad. Yeah. I mean, we got like five. We got so many things that we had to take home leftovers and we ate them like late night after the wedding.

3:29We got like a sweet douhua tofu pudding that kind of fell into that category. Great 2 a.m., 1 a.m., maybe later. It was great. Yeah. Love that. What's your first thing? My first thing is I talked about with Jaya and briefly on Food Writers, talking about food writing, overcompensating. Have you seen the show? No, I haven't. It is really, really, really good. I watched it in a couple days. It's on Amazon streaming now. It's from Benito Skinner, who is known as Benny Drama online and just absolutely a hilarious show. It's just it's set in a college. And the log line is, you know, Benny arrives extremely closeted and he is going through it his first few weeks and then months of school.

4:15and it gives a lot of can't hardly wait energy, but with Benny's extremely unique and I would say full of heart comedy. It is a way of speaking about this experience he had when he was at Georgetown. It's autobiographical in many ways, which I've read about online, that I just love the show. The cast to Wally Barham and Adam DeMarco from White Lotus fame play incredible roles and I just cannot say enough about the show. Yeah, I've been wanting to check it out. So now that you have the co-sign, I'll have to give it a look. So great. What's your next thing? My next thing is a little like fun drink that I had in Chicago.

4:55I went to Foxtrot Market, which I think is like largely closed, but they still have a couple locations in Chicago. And I got this drink called Betweener. Have you tried this before? No, I haven't. I love Foxtrot though. I felt like I was doing like a Matt kind of cosplay moment because I know you like Foxtrot. Went into the store and we got, we needed like a little afternoon pick-me-up, which is what this canned drink brand is explicitly marketed towards with the name Betweener. It's a caffeine, like green tea caffeine and L-theanine sparkling drink. They have a couple of flavors. We got the passion fruit lime flavor.

5:27Wow. Very delicious, refreshing. We split it so it wasn't like that much caffeine. I think each can has like a cup of coffee, but it was super good. And I've been looking for it at like Whole Foods and places since I've been back in New York, and I haven't seen it. So it might be only in Chicago for now. It's called Betweener. Betweener. So they're going for like energy drink, but not, but like managing the caffeine and making it feel not so energy drinky. Exactly. Which I would not normally drink an energy drink, but I guess that's what this was. Sounds cool. Worked for me. I love that the name says what it is.

6:00Yeah. What's your next thing? My next thing is I got to go to the new iteration of Mission Chinese. I believe it's being framed as Mission Chinese 6. I'm not sure if that's the iteration. And I am really happy to report that it is exceptional. I'm very excited about it. It's located at 45 Mott, which is in Chinatown in New York's in Manhattan. And I was thrilled about this kind of reboot. It's not really officially in a Mission Chinese proper. It's like a pop-up within an established restaurant. But by all means, this is Mission Chinese back in action. And to remind, this is Danny Bowen's restaurant.

6:39The great John DeBerry is GM there. So I got to visit with John and he's working the floor and just great vibes inside. Now, the menu, it has a lot of classics on there. So you're going to get your thrice cooked bacon with rice cakes, your cumin lamb ribs. The kung pao pastrami is there. So all the hits from Missions Past are there. And I did try one classic, the broccoli with beef cheeks, which I remember from the previous East Broadway location was phenomenal. But really, I tried some new things, which really impressed me. They did beautiful, simple pea shoots that I think like the folks cooking in the back, the woks are really, really dialed perfectly well.

7:21And they did this beautiful cabbage salad, which, you know, sounds like a cabbage salad, but it's beautiful and balanced and acidic and salty and everything you want in like a light initial salad. and what I really liked was the shiso fried rice, which was showered with shiso. So much shiso. Like more shiso than I thought I even needed in a fried rice, but it all worked extremely well. It was a delicious bite. And then the whole fish was great, and I can't remember which fish it was, but it was something I really wanted to have that night. And to close, they're doing a passion fruit panna cotta with pop rocks as the dessert.

7:57So a really fun, simple dessert to close. Check it out. Mission is there. I mean, it hasn't gotten any big reviews or anything. It's kind of quietly opened in the space, but I feel big things are coming from Mission. My last thing from Chicago is had to pay a visit to Lula Cafe in Logan Square, which is, you know, such an iconic restaurant ever since it opened in 1999. And it was a perfect, like, early summer, sunny, early dinner to have there. Really special. I think my favorite thing that we had was the roast chicken, which has been on the menu since they opened in 1999. It's just perfect roast chicken.

8:31served on top of a potato bitter green panzanella that kind of soaks up all of the chicken juices and then an anchovy aioli. I think that kind of starving idea for a roast chicken is something that I want to steal and try to do at home. Also had a really delicious carrot cake. I love carrot cake. I've had it. You've had a carrot cake. I've had it there, yeah. It's a beautiful layer cake. It's very like cleanly sliced and I just love carrot cake. So that actually we took to go and I ate in the hotel room later because we were so full from everything else that we had. But I just love Lula. And I think if I lived in Chicago, it would be the restaurant I would want to spend a lot of time at.

9:06So it's always fun to check in on old friends. It's a great restaurant. And I love Lula. You know, we've had Jason Hamill on the show talking about it when he released his cookbook a few years ago. Such a classic Chicago restaurant. And by all means, the desserts were a real highlight for me as well. I've had that cake. And I try to go back when I'm in Chicago. go if I can get a reservation. It can be a tough table to book sometimes. Yeah, I just set a Resi alert, honestly, and then I got a table for 6.15 and I was at the wedding reception and I jumped on the reservation. Love to hear Resi alert coming through.

9:39Yeah, yeah. Shout out to the Resi alert. Shout out to Resi. I just also have to reflect on the times when they would on Halloween, they would reboot their restaurant. Do you remember hearing about that a reading about that. It was like their kind of, their like Halloween costume would be the entire restaurant would be a different restaurant. So I think they probably did Trotter one day. They did Taco Bell. I'm super paraphrasing from memory, but they rebooted the whole restaurant. It was like their Halloween costume. That's fun. I love that. I love that. And just great spirit there. And Jason runs a great restaurant.

10:12So happy to hear that. What's your last thing? My last thing is when I was in Portland recently, I got to go to the Meadow, which is a terrific restaurant chocolate salt shop everything it's a beautiful shop and um ashkenozy is a chocolate company that i've been hip to they're out of springfield missouri and they're they're in this bean to bar movement which i love but what i really appreciate is that they're the branding has truly the farmers front and center on the branding and i tried um one bar and i'd love to try more i'm going to order more online um they're pretty affordable too which i i really appreciate and And the bar that I tried was a 77 % dark chocolate bar from Davo, the Philippines.

10:56And it was amazing. This is really premium chocolate. And I highly recommend checking these guys out. Ashkenozi is the company. Okay. I have to say that I went on the website to make sure we were pronouncing it right and found out that the owner was briefly a professional wrestler in Japan. Okay. When he was in college in Tokyo and his wrestling name was Shooting Sean Springfield. That is. Really a delicious bit of information. Terrific chocolate. Thank you for that fun fact. Great catching up with you, Eliza. Yeah, thanks for sharing your three things.

11:34Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair. You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames.

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13:31Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Adam Roberts, welcome back to This Is Stace. How are you, man? I'm doing great. It's so nice to be back here. I love this conversation. I love that we're having this. Your book is Food Person. It's your debut novel. I read it in like five days. Okay, great. And that was only because of travel. I probably would have read it in two days if I would have been just sitting in my home enjoying it. It's so terrific. Anybody who listens to this show and listens to journalists and cookbook authors talk about writing cookbooks, uh we you cover like this dynamic between uh the the writer and the and the author in the ghost writing world uh but before we get to food person i just want to know like you're back in new york living here it's been maybe a year and a half or so what are your what's your rotation right now you were in la for a decade you're back what's it like restaurant wise for you you know it's funny because it's like i when i lived in la i would read the new yorker like tables for two column and I'd be so envious.

14:28And I'm like, oh, I'm going to hit all those restaurants. But the truth is, when you live in New York, I don't know if you feel this way, but you end up eating just in your neighborhood. Those become your favorite restaurants. So we moved to Boreham Hill, and my favorite restaurant in our neighborhood is Barbette. I don't know if you've ever been there. I used to live in Carroll Gardens, so I know the neighborhood really well, and I used to go to Barbette. Yeah, very cool place. I love it. I mean, to me, it's like the dream restaurant. It really is. It's cozy. It's not too crowded. It's not overhyped.

14:53Yeah. And they have that dessert where it's like a yellow cake with chocolate ganache frosting and sea salt. And it's like the best. Yeah. But in terms of like my regular rotation, mostly things around me. So like the Chinese restaurant near me, Shan is great. Szechuan. But then there's also the ones that like, you know, special occasion ones that like, I'm so excited, like Le Vaudour. Yeah. For my birthday is where we went. I don't know if you've been there yet. I haven't been there yet. Oh my God. It's like the dream of like a classic French New York restaurant. You know, I mean, it is a, it's an old restaurant.

15:24Yeah. But it has like the red and white checkered tablecloths. And they cook things that like you would see like in an old French cookbook, like veal brains and sweetbreads and all that kind of stuff. It comes up a lot on the show, Le Vador. Oh, yeah, yeah. We made a lot of year-end lists when we were doing the recaps. The worst thing about it is trying to pronounce it, but otherwise. You got it. You nailed it. Well, Adam, I want you to set up Food Person because there's definitely a setup. And I don't want to spoil anything because there's a lot of great twists and turns. But tell us a little bit about your protagonist, Isabella, and just in general, the gist of it.

15:57Yeah. I mean, the story is about an introverted, shy, aspiring food writer in her 20s that's in New York. And she dreams of becoming the next like MFK Fisher or the next like Julia Child. But she gets offered this job ghostwriting a celebrity's cookbook. And the celebrity is like a Lindsay Lohan type who's sort of spiraling downward. where she got fired off a TV show, and she has no interest in food except she sees this as a way to resuscitate her career. And so Isabella, this is like the last thing Isabella wants to do, but Molly, the star, needs the help. And so it's about this unlikely friendship that forms between the two of them.

16:34And it also, between that friendship building and deteriorating and building more, you really have a comment on modern food media. Isabella works at a website that's like a high-frequency news and recipe website with a lot of social component and pressure. It could be five publications that are in existence today and won't name any of them. You can name them. But honestly, Adam, what are you trying to say about modern food media through the character Isabella and her trials at this publication? Well, you know, one of the things I was thinking about on my way over here was like I started my food blog 20 years ago in 2004, and it was a new idea.

17:15Yeah, I mean, the saturation hadn't happened yet. So the internet as a place to launch yourself was kind of a new thing. But now, I mean, in 2025, if I were a young food writer, I would be overwhelmed at the idea of how to make a name for yourself, especially if you're a writer and not a TikToker and not making videos or doing podcasting or whatever. It's like, if you want to make a name for yourself as a writer, how do you launch yourself? So I think in a way, I'm writing about that challenge. You know, it's like, how do you make a name for yourself in the food media world and also hold on to your integrity?

17:52It's really, really well thought through because I can't imagine the pressure. There's a memorable scene where Isabella, who is a writer and editor and writing recipes and really in the weeds with text on the page, is like thrown into an Instagram live. Yes. Like in the test kitchen, there's a test kitchen at this publication. And really, she fails. And there's a comment about like not every food writer needs to be on camera. but maybe they all kind of do. It happened to me actually when I had my food blog, the Food Network came calling. Oh yeah. And they had me shoot a pilot or shoot a test video and I wrote this whole script and I was on a soundstage at the Food Network and there was a whole crew on the set with cameras and lights and stuff and I just froze.

18:32I literally just froze. I couldn't remember what I had to say and it was one of the most mortifying experiences of my life so certainly autobiographical that moment. That moment felt like you were writing from experience and it's terrific that the editor-in-chief is is is vile in the best ways as we love seeing people of power like uh flex that power in in ugly ways it's part of media yeah um i also like in food person at the heart of it is somebody a character who just loves cookbooks in a way that you write so beautifully uh you write about the history of cookbooks you write about modern cookbooks and through this character there's like a deep love of cookbooks tell me when you're writing this novel are you just like looking at your shelf because you're name checking i would say like 50 100 cookbooks by name some of them are real deep cuts which i love i mean i think any fan of cookbooks should read this book because you really do talk about cookbooks and you give little mini vignettes that pay tribute to these cookbooks well it's funny because i i if i ever get divorced, it won't be because of infidelity.

19:38It'll be because I bought another cookbook because I have so many cookbooks. I mean, I get in trouble all the time. Literally, if I come home with a new cookbook, I get screamed at. But I have, yeah, I write at the dining room table, which is appropriate. And we have a big shelf next to us. And I have a collection of really old cookbooks and really funny ones. I have like the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous cookbook like Robin Leach. I have Uta Hagen's cookbook. But then I also have Craig Claiborne's book on etiquette. I have classic veal cookery. So I have always loved cookbooks. And it's my favorite thing to do is to go to a cookbook store and just browse around and then come home with a cookbook and just sit there on the couch for hours, just flipping through it.

20:25And it's less about, you know, the getting recipes, which is a part of it. But it's also just about like immersing yourself into this world of somebody else and the intimacy of their kitchen and their way of thinking about food. It's there's something there's something that a cookbook does that I don't think fiction does or poetry or TikTok videos. It's like there's something very intimate and personal about it. Well, you mentioned a cookbook store. And I think that there's a central couple moments, actually, that take place at a cookbook store. And any fan of New York cookbook stores will recognize Bonnie Slotnick and Arca Stratus in Brooklyn, maybe a little bit of Kitchen Arts and Letters.

21:01And I think the owner of the store has a lot of heart and it's an important relationship between Isabella and the owner. And talk about how you wanted to portray your version of a cookbook store, because it's maybe not exactly the way it works at these stores that exist today, but there's some reality there. But you're kind of writing almost the idealized cookbook store. I mean, for me, I'm not a Star Wars nerd, but it's like Yoda's planet. I think Dagobah. It's like Isabella is going to get, it's like her mentor. And this is where she's, this is like her, or like Superman, like, you know, was that like Ice Palace?

21:43Ice Palace, yeah. But it's like, it's where she goes to like feel most like herself and where it's like, and she's looking at these shelves of these names and these iconic people. And this is her dream. And so it's like her mentor is Alice, who owns the cookbook shop. And it's sort of like she's the one who pushes Isabella to take this job. You know, it's like the idea that like ghostwriting a celebrity's cookbook would stop her from having this career. It's like, well, wait a second. Melissa Clark has ghostwritten cookbooks. And Julia Tershin has ghostwritten cookbooks. So all these people have ghostwritten cookbooks.

22:15And there's no shame in it. And it's actually part of the process of becoming a food writer. So I think it's where she grows as a character and where she wisens up a bit. Yeah, because she doesn't realize that you can actually write a cookbook. Yeah. And even though she's such a fan and a really talented home cook and works at a publication, she thinks cookbooks are unattainable. And I think it's a great moment because I think we talked to a lot of authors on the show and like you can write a cookbook. Yeah. Like we're acquiring cookbooks all the time here at Penguin Random House. And like there's plenty of publishers, Independent and Major Five, that want cookbooks.

22:49It's a beast that continues to be fed. So I think it's a great, if in reading your novel, you get into the mind of a really talented food writer making that jump to cookbook writing. And there's the counterpoint, which is that, yes, you can write a cookbook, but can you support yourself writing cookbooks? Yes. Which is a whole other question. And I think that's underneath the story a little bit because her mother is certainly an antagonist in terms of discouraging her from this career. And I think that that voice has always been in my head, you know, like, can you keep doing this? When are you going to hit the wall?

23:23Yeah, the mother is a complex character. You write a really, really good one there. I wonder where I got that. Deeply triggering to some people. I wonder where you got that. Please read this book. There's a lot of layers here, and it's just fantastic. Thanks, Matt. Well, you mentioned Melissa Clark, and you mentioned real-life people. Now, what I thought was very cool, and I want to get your take because I kept thinking, like, you're writing, like, conversations about living, active writers, like, between Isabella and Alice about, you know, Sola El-Waley, Alice and Roman, they're mentioned by name.

23:57Almost like you were, like, eavesdropping on a conversation in modern times. And I felt that was very fresh. Like, I haven't read fiction that had real food, you know, writers and media folks mentioned by name. Tell me, like, what's it like writing about real life people in this fictional world? I thought it was important to ground the story in this reality because I do think this is, you know, what people who are trying to become food writers, these are the people they're thinking about. You know, these are the tastemakers and the cookbook authors, you know, everyone from like Molly Baz to Alison Roman to, you know, Sola.

24:33These are the people who are aspiring to become food writers and cookbook authors are looking to these people. So for me to make up a bunch of fictional names, I feel like wouldn't have been as effective as just naming the names of the people that, you know, any young person today would want to become. And you pick the right names. You pick the people that I think that young food writers are striving for, to your point exactly. Oh, yeah. And really, you write about, you know, some of them you give a little personality to. Did you talk to any of these folks while you were writing it? I mean, are they going to be like pleasantly surprised?

25:06I hope so. So, I mean, there's nothing derogatory about any of that. No, it's fair. It's not. Yeah. I think, no, I did not tell a single person that they would be in this book. But if they read it and they see themselves, I hope that that's all a positive experience. I think so. I think you're very neutral to positive with all the names. There's no cattiness there, which, you know, maybe there was an opportunity to go there instinctually. But you kind of avoided that. Yeah, I did not want to get it canceled before my book comes out. I mean, good call, Adam. Thank you. Now, at the center of this book is this collaboration between Molly.