606: The NA Craft Beer Boom Is Real with Best Day (Tate Huffard) & Visitor (Rob Jensen)

30:46You'll be part of it. But really back then, you must have had to have been crafty, pun intended, with the way you got influencers, got key channels to buy in. And I think I experienced your beer for the first time on the West Coast at a great all-day cafe. But how was it like getting the word out for Best Day? What was it like bootstrapping this company? Yeah, well, I am, I think, very fortunate that the place where I happen to get this thing off the ground is just a bastion for the lifestyle of kind of that intersection of beer and, you know, fill in the blank, music, food, surfing, running. So all this stuff was in my backyard.

31:31And I had a hunch that if I could just, you know, get some cans in the right hands, you know, things would start moving. And I remember getting my first production run, right, which was a whopping 50 cases. Wow. And, uh, you know, that's half a pallet. And I remember staring at that pallet being like, how in God's name am I ever going to get people to drink this much NA beer? And, uh, and sure enough, I, I put it in the back of my truck. I, uh, you know, I, I drove around, uh, you know, Marin and San Francisco. And my goal was to kind of own this five mile radius around Sausalito. And I knew the accounts that if I could just get it in there, that was the right consumer.

32:31And they were a mix of on-premise and off-premise accounts, but kind of the the tastemaker accounts, if you will. And they were, you know, beer gardens and, and, you know, great dinner spots and pizza spots. And, and, and then the independents, you know, the, the, the grocery stores that people go into who are looking for stuff that makes them feel better, whether that's vegetables or what, you know, whatever it is. And with local being a real big part of the story. So if you're thinking about focusing, it had to be. And like clearly running Food & Bev and Sausalito, local is very important to customers.

33:14And you have to clearly sell your beer as local beer. Yeah. Yeah. And then timing kicks in. And our timing just happened to be really good. where right when this was starting, you know, it was interesting seeing that kind of transition during COVID where, and I went through it too, you know, where you kind of reach the outer limits of like, wow, okay, that's a lot of wine or that's a lot of scotch or something. And I think a lot of people had that. And they also had just like a wake up with mortality, right? This is what happens during a pandemic. And then, you know, all those forces that we were talking about that contribute to the tailwind really started flaring up and that wind started getting strong.

34:01And, uh, I got really lucky with, um, you know, Mary at Whole Foods and Rusty at HEB in Texas. These people just were, they were looking for my product and I just happened to be there at the right time. And things started happening quickly. And, you know, so it went from the small independent retailers in San Francisco, who we still love them, you know, there's still a big, big portion of our business, but pretty quickly, you know, for the reasons that we were talking about with athletic as well, people were looking for that number too. Yeah. And people wanted something else and we were there at the right time and you know it's been a one hell of a ride over the last few years my gosh what's it like walking in you know traveling to texas walking into heb or whole foods and and bringing in you know your your cooler and and and doing the pitch like what's your pitch to them at that moment uh you know our our pitch is uh brand and taste I mean, it doesn't matter what you're selling in the world of consumer.

35:18It's those two things that are going to win someone over, right? And going in with enthusiasm and authenticity. And we were just really, really confident that if we could get in a room with someone and, you know, have them experience the brand through the packaging, through my story, through everything like that, and then taste the beer. we had them, you know, and they realize what's going on, right? They realize that, oh my gosh, like this is something different, right? This is, I got to get away from those O'Douls, those Klaas-Talers, because those are the things of the past. This is the thing of the future.

36:00And you pitched them on the Kolsch? Was that the SKU that you were going out with? Yeah, that's our lead dog. I mean, your lead dog is the smartest lead dog in the game, because I think everyone knows Kolsch. Like, and I said at the jump, like between a beer garden in America or traveling Europe, it's like the most iconic flavor profile. And you know it when you know it. You know, Pilsners and Hazies have, you know, a wide spectrum. But Kolsch is pretty tight. Yeah, yeah. And it's also different. It was just really clear that we're doing something different here and we care about, you know, what's in the can.

36:34What about the pink? Now, I think that's a big part of it or the peach, I guess I could say. How long did it take you to land on that? Because I think that is a cool color, you know, to lead with. And it says it's a little different than athletic. They don't have many pinks. And really, there's something about that can that just jumps out. Yeah, well, you know, I told you about our standard for the brand coming to life. And really, it is summarized as, you know, it's a brand so beautiful, you want to put it on your wall. and and the the other interesting contributing factor and kind of landing on not just this but the overall aesthetic is that if you if you look at the gender dynamics in this na craft movement it is virtually 50 50 wow and that is so far from what craft beer was and that's really powerful Right.

37:30It's powerful for for for, you know, what does this look like in grocery? It's powerful for how do people drink this at restaurants? And and it is. So we wanted to create something that was welcoming. right that that wasn't your you know your your craft beer of the past which was you know 95 percent male we wanted something that said you know this is a beautiful brand right and whether you're a male consumer female consumer whatever you are this should appeal to you both in in brand and in in taste were you were you looking at panettones i mean how how did you get up get to that pink because you're asking me to go down memory i'm going down memory this is what we do here yeah Yeah, I don't know.

38:13It took a long time. I remember the four walls of my office being absolutely covered in Pantones and different designs from ceiling to floor and walking around time and time again, myself, my wife, my friends, and landing here. And I feel great about where we landed. I mean, it's really fun. And it's just so rewarding being out. And when people see the brand, they really appreciate it, you know? Yeah, no, it's well said. So you took on$22 million in investment funding this year. And it's a significant raise for the NA category. Let me hear a bit about what you're going to do with this money and your goals with expansion.

39:06Yeah, well, I'd say three things to summarize it. We have an absolutely incredible team that we've built. People really see the opportunity here to be a part of something special and a brand that's really, you know, out at the frontier of, I think, what is going to be one of the most important consumer trends of, you know, our generation and subsequent generations to come. And so, you know, we're looking to expand that team pretty rapidly as we get into pushing to new parts of the country. Grow brand awareness. All of our marketing has been on the street, handing out cans and hands. We do that at 5Ks.

39:57We do it at concerts. We do it at yoga studios. We do it at beach cleanups. I mean, if there's anywhere where a beer might fit, we're there. You see it in boxes too, shipped around the country. I've seen your product in boxes. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing about being NA. You know, we can move product really quickly. And once we get that product in someone's hand and they experience, you know, the packaging that you're talking about, and then they crack it open and they experience the product, we got them. I mean, they love it. They love it. So for us, you know, being a small brand looking at a giant mountain to climb, you know, we got to grow brand awareness.

40:39So a significant portion is about getting more people into the tent. And thirdly, we're going to continue to invest in technology. And we are here to make the best non-alcoholic beer that the world has ever seen. And anything less than that, we're not doing our jobs. So it means continuing to push the envelope on what's possible. Speaking of funding, have the strategics been kind of hovering around you? I know I talked to a lot of founders on the show in many food categories and drink categories, and strategics are always part of the conversation. What's your relationship with them? Well, we've got a lot of work to do, and we're very focused on growing this brand, as we know we can.

41:23Um, I think that the strategics are all trying to figure out, uh, you know, they're taking a five and 10 year look into the future and saying, oh my God, you know, my customers are drinking less alcohol. I got to figure out a plan here. Um, and, uh, and so, you know, while they do that, we're going to be focused on doing what we do best. And that's growing this brand and bringing people, like I said, into the best day. So your phone rings a bit. I don't know about that. But, you know, I think it's a really interesting time in the category. And, you know, we've got a lot of work to do. We'll see where it goes.

42:06So what is the R &D pipeline looking like? Because, you know, looking at your list, you have four SKUs now. You know, there's not a sour. I'm not seeing really a European lager. I have one I'd like to request at the end. But what are you thinking about in terms of growing the actual offerings? Yeah, well, I mean, we've been so focused on just trying to maintain stock in our four core. That has been really difficult. But as we round the corner on getting ahead of the inventory problem, we have been doing some experimentation. So our beer that's coming out is called the Galaxy Ripple. And that is a Imperial IPA.

43:06So lots of hop characteristics in that one. And that's going to be for all the IPA drinkers. That's going to be, I think, an eye-opening experience. We will have – so we did a really fun collaboration with the Conservation Alliance, which was a Pilsner. It was called Nature's Pils. And we had a lot of fun bringing that to market. So the Pilsner – and it was just – I'll get you some of that. Yeah. It was a fantastic beer. So that one's coming back. We will have Belgian white. Oh, cool. You will have European white. Yeah, so that's coriander, chamomile, orange peel. It is really killer beer. And we're just, you know, we're not going too wide.

43:57I mean, we're going to stay focused. We're going to use our rotational beers as a way to continue to experiment and really push the envelope on what's possible. Where are your breweries now? I mean, are you only on the West Coast right now? No, we're contract brewed. So we've got a couple locations around the country. And again, as we expand our footprint, we're trying to stay as close to the consumer as possible. Yeah, we've got a really unique relationship where we have our own brewing team internally. That brewing team works a lot with our own technology. And then, you know, we find partners that have, you know, the capacity we need, that have the quality standards we need.

44:50And it's allowed us to move quickly, right, in a way where, you know, if you start building out breweries, you know, that makes the amount of money that we've raised look like pennies. Yeah, the capital. 22 doesn't get you much if you're building breweries. And contract is what I assumed. And you have to be a little bit, you know, a little bit, I would say, clandestine about who you because of contracts. But clearly, you have distribution in over 20 states, right? Yeah, we're pushing 36 states coming out of this year. So we're busy. Well, my request, and I've not seen this because, as I mentioned, I've had the Asahi 00 and I've had a Sapporo 00.

45:34But to my knowledge, and please write in listeners if you have any suggestions, but I haven't seen a Japanese NA. Oh, I love that. It's so funny. We were just having a product meeting and we were talking about that. A first mover is going to totally rock it if you can do and nail Sapporo. Because, you know, frankly, the distribution is lacking in America. And I know Japan has an NA culture. And I know tastes are changing in this massive brewing culture there. But no one has done their version of a Japanese brew. Good challenge. Let's see it. I love to see it. So we have a lot of industry folks listening to the show.

46:14folks who work in restaurants who maybe even manage bars or manage beverage programs. And to me, it still seems like there is a lack of understanding, particularly when you go to like the middle to the fine side of the coin, that there is a real market of N.A. beer drinkers out there. And it shocks me when you walk into a place that has 30 beers but only has athletic. And I just have to say there has to be an opportunity to make some money there because, frankly, we don't all want to drink a wine flight or drink full speed beer, particularly if we're going and having a large meal. We have to drive there.

46:56So what's up with that? Like an industry folks like what's up with that? You know, it's such a good question. And I think that, well, if you kind of zoom out and I think about telling people this idea when it was just getting going, right? After I opened that fridge and saw the O'Douls, people looked at me like I had eight heads. And there's no question that we have come a long way since then. But to your point, I think there's plenty more room for growth. And so, you know, I don't know. I mean, part of it is there are always going to be haters. And I welcome that, you know, in some respects. It feels good.

47:43It's motivating to prove people wrong. but man even in the last two years you know we've had we've worked with a major airline Alaska Airlines came to us and said you know we're recognizing our consumers are moving they're so great with food in bed the last yeah it's so great um you know we just rolled out with major food group so you know that that kind of stuff is happening we've got cruise ships we've got music venues, we've got arenas. And, you know, a lot of these things are like, it's like moving a tanker, right? It doesn't happen overnight and they want to make the right decision. And, you know, because of the three-tier system, there is the, you know, you have to have the right distributor that services the right account.

48:30And so, you know, you got to push through some walls in order to make it happen. But it feels like these things are coalescing at more or less a perfect time, right? Where whether you're a high-end restaurant or a bar, you also want to have some choice too. You don't want to just choose athletic because everyone else is choosing it too, right? You want to have some choice or you want to make the right choice. So I think that you're going to see, there's kind of been this inertia that we've had to overcome and you're going to see things pick up. and uh you know i i i liken it to the snowball rolling downhill and i think that's going to lead to a lot of exciting new placements and hopefully those those uh you know those haters in the media might uh might realize that they they missed it on this one and i you know i i think that they also take a uh a critical lens rightly so because there have been so many instances of other trends that people have said for one reason or another are going to be the next thing, right?

49:38And it's going to be an enduring trend and they've turned out to be flashes in the pan. I am really encouraged by how much growth has happened in our category that is not celebrity driven, right? That is not some major celebrity with the billboard and, you know, they have a major marketing budget and, you know, this thing goes from zero to a hundred and then crashes down to zero again. Yeah. All that growth that you've seen in our category, especially on the craft side, has really come organically, right? And that's because people are feeling good. It's word of mouth. And I think when you combine those things together and you hit the milestones that we've hit, it makes a really credible case for that enduring trend that's going to last.

50:30And I think that ultimately culminates with that completely tectonic shift in consumer behavior that we talked about. I mean, to get to 40 billion by 2033, you're going to have to open up to some brand new channels. And you could see a reality where we're one of the big QSRs jumps on this train. It has to happen. And I'll be very curious to see who that is, if it's, you know, a sweet green or is it a, I mean, is it a McDonald's? I mean, you know, in Europe, there's beer at McDonald's everywhere and it works well together. Yeah. Yeah. I saw, you know, there's a stat that 60 % of the consumption of non-alcoholic beer is incremental.

51:08And so it is happening with, it's all about different occasions. It's all about those moments where, you know, you want to drink a beer, but you don't for whatever reason. It's lunch, right? Or it's, you know, Tuesday night or it's Saturday afternoon, day drinking. And the non-alcoholic beer can really fill a void. We just got to be there. And then people realize like, oh my gosh, it's an unlock. Like I can go do that. And that's the way I think that, you know, that the smart, the smart restaurants, the smart airlines, the smart fill in the blank are realizing that for them, it's good business.

51:56Right. The hotel groups, it's good business. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Major Domo. Sorry. You mentioned Major Food Group and you mentioned Alaska Air. These are the tip of the spear when it comes to food and innovation in our country. It's obvious. Yeah. So there's got to be a QSR who's. Why shouldn't you have a great tasting non-alcoholic Mexican lager at Chipotle for your lunch? Yeah. You should. Yeah. It's just it's just it's going to take some time. What about the Kraft N.A. beer bar? Now, in New York with real estate as it is, it's probably challenging. But I could see like a Denver or a Phoenix or a place that maybe real estate isn't as crazy where this could actually work.

52:37Is there is there such a thing in our country that maybe I'm missing? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We see them popping up all over the place, whether it's a bar or an NA bottle shop. Yeah. And those those are just great. It's amazing to see that happen. And there's so much product discovery that happens. There's so much word of mouth that that creates, you know, more power to them. We love supporting those. Oh, I would love to walk into an NA craft beer bar and do like a bunch of flights and just do some. It would be a real joy to me to do that. So maybe New York will get one. I know there are bottle shops and some of the biggies have, you know, come and gone.

53:15But like local, like thinking local, thinking NA beer. I mean, there is a stigma, though, of going to a bar and not drinking alcohol. I mean, that's the hurdle, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing, though. I think once you, whether you're at a bar or a wedding or any sort of function where beer was there, once you get an NA beer in your hand and you get that taste, that stigma goes away. I mean, you are no longer thinking you're part of something else. You're part of the mix. And that's the experience that I think is a major unlock for consumers. Well, I'm a fan. This is 100 % unpaid. This is not a partnership.

53:59This is like my true love of your brand. I really appreciate that. Thank you. Tate Hufford, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

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54:52The full program is available at montrealonlumiere.com. Presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner.

55:25Yeah, man, I have so been there. Butcher Box is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure-cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.

56:03It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited-time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Rob Jensen, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you doing today? Thanks. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. Stuck to be on.

56:45Yeah, me too. I love that I was introduced to visitor beer recently. And for me, when I hear about a new beer that is in the NA category and it's thrusted into my hands, I'm not turning it down. and it's just cool to see somebody like yourself who's worked at Pitchfork and at agencies and somebody who has been at the tip of the spear of culture. I'm just going to say, I don't know you personally, but you knew some culture. You're down. You are venturing into this category, so it's exciting to talk to you. Thanks. Yeah, I'm excited to be having the conversation and you said it, not me, in terms of connected to culture.

57:31I feel like in my professional life, I've always been what I felt was adjacent to culture. But yeah, it's, I don't know. Obviously, like there's a lot happening in the NA beer space and it's an exciting time to be involved and part of the conversation. Yeah, so Rob, tell me what drew you to the NA beer category? I mean, do you have a personal connection to beer brewing? And also, were you looking at a market? Was there a business choice that non-alcoholic beers have a growth potential, perhaps? Yeah. Spoiler alert. I am not a brewmaster. I didn't assume so. Yeah. I live in Chicago. There's a rich drinking tradition and brewing tradition here in the Midwest.

58:24My co-founder, David, is from Milwaukee. So between Chicago and Milwaukee, rich beer tradition. But for me, and I think David, some of the personal connection for us probably comes from like, we've only been around for about three years. But the personal connection, I think, is rooted in a lot of ways in like our own selfish desire to be at a show or at a restaurant and you know wanting to drink an na beer without having to ask the bartender to pour it in a glass because we don't like the way the can looks or like you know there's the idea that like the can and what you're drinking and holding in your hand can mean something and i think just like prior to starting Visitor, we weren't really seeing anything that we selfishly wanted to hold in our own hands and drink in these settings.

59:20So we just felt like, okay, it doesn't seem like anyone is thinking about it in this way. And maybe perhaps we're uniquely suited to bring something to the market. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's definitely so much thought that goes into packaging for alcohol, for beverage. And, you know, I look at your can and it's like minimal. I mean, there's like aluminum. And then the naming convention is really cool. And I want you to tell me a little bit about how you decided on that. You've got lager and you've got extra IPA. You don't have like tasting notes. You're not trying to do specific styles from countries.

1:00:04What was the reasoning here yeah uh it's the whole brand is certainly minimal by design i think a lot of that stems from our opinion that brands in general this isn't just like beverage brands but just like brands in general are doing a lot and in many cases doing too much they're yelling at their customers they're like you know i feel like there's not a lot of subtlety that you see out there in terms of how brands are like interacting with the customers. And I think that really informed like mine and David's approach to the brand of just like, you know, as you mentioned, the packaging, the can is almost all bare aluminum.

1:00:49Our eco-friendly six pack carriers are pretty low profile. And I think we just wanted to, we wanted to come at this NA beer space from a different direction in a world where like you know you walk into a craft beer aisle like at a grocery store still today there's just like beer design is there's crazy dragons and illustrations and just like you know there's a lot happening so we kind of just wanted to do the polar opposite of what we were seeing um and kind of zig when everyone else was zagging yeah absolutely good well said and I think you're right. There's a lot of pastels out there. Pastels seem to be the jam these days.

1:01:36Taking back your time working at Pitchfork where you were running marketing initiatives and you worked at Shuba's, which I love Shuba's. I've been there a number of times. And you were at the venue and lots of alcohol is always around. And I've been to Pitchfork Fest, RIP, the Chicago one at least. RIP. Man, I'm going to miss that one. So you're looking at all these young people who have culture at the center of their world. They're drinking a lot of alcohol. Are you thinking about non-alcoholic beer in these spaces? Are you thinking that there's an opportunity? I mean, absolutely. I think my time in the Chicago music venue world and my time at Pitchfork was all pretty informative in that way.

1:02:23But I don't talk about it much, but I'm a musician as well and was playing and touring in bands for a long time prior to working on that side of the music business. And I think like for me, the seeds were like planted way back that, you know, during that time in my life where I was just like on the road a lot. And, you know, I'm thinking back to like, I was playing drums for Daniel Johnston on tour in 2010. And at that time, that was like one of the cushier tours that I had ever been on. And at that point, like, you know, you're playing bigger rooms, some venues have a bigger hospitality budget to take care of the bands.

1:03:12and you're rolling up to a new venue every day and there's just like multiple cases of beer and booze waiting like at every venue every day for you and I think that still is the case um for a lot of people on the road and for me I think that was the first time where it was like oh like and I never really had a problem like with I never really struggled with addiction to alcohol and or drugs or anything like that. But like, I was drinking every day, because it was there, and it was available to me, like, and it was, it was fun. And I think that, like being on the road and playing music, it's a hard enough lifestyle in its own right.

1:03:57And when you add that element intuitive, just like, suddenly, this is just available to you pretty much every day. I have a pretty, you know, I have a suspicion that had there been some good non-alcoholic beverage options and beer options available to me back then, I probably would have been reaching for them. So well said. I mean, I think of, you know, going to attending concerts as being a time when you're crushing so many beers and not having that option to take a round off even, not like take it all out of your life. Now that you go to shows and you've got a lot of different NA options, and I think all drinkers are just loving this idea that they can have a beer and have that palate refresh with a bitter profile and not get wasted or have the effects of alcohol hit them.

1:04:52And I love that. I love what you're saying. you know what what what what shows come to mind when you're at shuba's any like big you know favorites that are just at the tip of your tongue oh i mean it was it was a while ago that i was working there but um i think some standouts like i remember seeing the walkman um play at shuba's like pretty early in their career um that's a pretty big standout one to me um and i was also working for at the time it was a newer club it was like a sister club to shuva's called lincoln hall and i got to be there for um i was running marketing for both venues at the time it was you know i feel like a lot of people uh i i'm from the chicagoland area and i've been here my whole life but like some people sleep on the fact that like chicago has a sneaky amount of like small to mid like cap venues i think it's like it's such a cool thing about chicago um that's a long answer but yeah i think it's also you know you think about like these venues it's just like the way that they actually are profitable is it's based on bar sales like it's not just ticket sales and so i think like during this shift and like people are just drinking less across the board i think it was like it there was almost a delayed reaction in my mind of like venues were in denial for for a while that like their bar sales were down but i think like slowly they've started to come around to the fact that like yeah hey having any beverage options is it's like gonna allow you to maybe make up some of what you lost and it's not like taking away from your your bar sales it's additive yeah it's such a bummer when all you have is like the the coke gun you know when you're at a show like yeah i always like it blows my mind too at restaurants too it's like you know you've got people there who don't want you know that super sweet mocktail but like want to participate it's like get a craft craft na like like like like visitor just like what how do you think about restaurants because i gotta believe you know we talked a lot about clubs but you know getting into restaurants, breaking those accounts.

1:07:07And we just, we had Tate from Best Day on this episode before you. Oh, nice. You know, Tate's got a great story as well. And like, we talked a little bit about getting into restaurants. What's it like for Visitor right now? You're only three years into your journey, so you're at a different, you know, phase. You're really on the upswing. What's it like getting into the restaurants? I think right now we're being really targeted about, like, We're not trying to be in all the restaurants in the markets that we're in. We're trying to be in the right ones. And it's just like, okay, selfishly, those are the places that me and David want to be going to.

1:07:46So, it's like, I think like, you know, we look at like, what are the places of influence? Like music venues, art galleries, restaurants, like places where just like culture happens. And it's just like, we want to be a part of that conversation because, you know, there's no better way to make an impression than like being tied to like, oh, my friends and I just went to this amazing restaurant and we got this like, this really great NA beer. Like that association is so valuable and there's no better way to make like a first impression for people. So it's definitely part of our strategy. Smart strategy.

1:08:21I feel like Al's Ale up here in New York has done something like that in the East Coast, you know, getting in the right spots and visitor in the Midwest. Are you in New York City restaurants and also just we should have said this at the top but like how do you buy your beers yeah so distribution wise right now we have proper distribution in illinois wisconsin michigan new york city metro nashville small footprint in la and small footprint in sf um if you check out visitor.fyi we've got a little store locator where you can find places to buy visitor we also sell beer on our website um and we sell on amazon as of recently too so cool um lots of places to get us but yeah we're um we're definitely trying to be in not every spot right now but just the right ones yeah really smart it's terrific beer i test it's it's great stuff and you gotta try it no i you're welcome i like it a lot and that's why you're on the show it's it's you know there's a there's a lot of a lot of new brands out there and more coming and it's nice to hear uh an organic story tell me about the brewing process what can you say um i i think the most important thing to convey is that like when we started coming up with this idea and wanted to make an na beer uh again like coming back to the midwest brewing tradition like we didn't want to make a health beer we didn't want to like inject it with ashwagandha and eutropics like you know we didn't want to make like a functional health beer we were just like dead set on like this has to taste as close to like normal beer as we possibly can make it and um what that means is that like visitor is brewed just like a normal beer is with a few small modifications but like a lot of people like maybe assume that there's like oh well like you're going in and like you're sucking all the alcohol out or like the process must be so much different but like it really is brewed almost the exact same way that you would brew like a full octane beer um there's other ways to do it but i guess like we were just like hell bent on making sure that this tastes just like a normal beer yeah it seems like the you know when you de-alkalize that's takes away a lot of flavor and and that might be not the best body yeah body is a great word i think it does crush the body and And, you know, de-alkalized wines are mostly just horrific.

1:10:54And, you know, there's a few from Germany that are amazing, but it's hard to get that body back. But, like, with beer, thankfully, there's way more. And there's, you know, the brands I mentioned. It's cool. Like, is this process, was it tough to land on it? I mean, it's a lot to actually create an NA beer that has that structure. Yeah, I think it's like, as I mentioned, like, I'm not a brewmaster. but like i enjoy beer i still drink um and i have opinions about beer and so does david and i think for us like it really came down to like we had a hunch that a lot of people that would be interested in buying and drinking visitor like also still drank alcohol to some extent and that that definitely has has been true so far since we launched and like we even have like there's a place in chicago that's doing they're calling it a boiler faker special where it's like you can get a shot of whiskey with a visitor and to us like i think that like seeing people doing that it really crystallized like okay like these are the types of people that like we want to appeal to like oftentimes it's people that still are drinking or they're just like maybe they're alternating back and forth between a full octane beer and a visitor or drinking in you know a mezcal cocktail and then a visitor so like this idea of balance seekers and like what these people are looking for in a beer um we had a hunch that like let's just not over complicate this and let's just make an na beer that tastes like as much as a one-for-one swap for real beer as we possibly can The boiler faker is just on my mind right now.

1:12:43It's such a strong articulation. It's so great. Yeah. It's just a great articulation of how NA can work in all of a drinking culture. It's, you know, I love it. A hundred percent. Yeah. I guess this is getting back to like maybe the minimalist approach in general that we have. But like, you know, there are some NA beverage brands out there that can be preachy sometimes. or like, you know, like preach that you shouldn't be drinking alcohol. Like, A, I think brands have no place in like asserting themselves into the conversation because everyone's relationship to beer, wine, spirits, alcohol is, it's different and it's deeply personal.

1:13:25For us, I think it's just like, I think there's a lot of power in saying less and let the people that are buying your beer define like what it means to them and how it fits in their life and i think to a lot of brands that feels very scary to sort of like give up that control and that power to your customers but i actually think that like the payoff is in that like you can create a much deeper connection by letting them define that than telling them like this is how you should drink visitor and this is where it should fit in your life and there should be no alcohol like that's just i think it's i think it's a heavy-handed and a wrong approach so we're trying to kind of do the opposite there i mean it's it's kind of the liquid death model in many ways it's like just put the put it out there and just have like this this product available that has a great brand and a great name but doesn't like say anything specific right yeah there's yeah i think they're a good example of like letting the letting the customer sort of like create those definitions and and say where it fits in it's just like there's a lot of power in that and uh that's definitely our approach yeah and you have to have a great brand branding moment you know with with the aesthetics of the can and because if you are saying anything preachy that like what are we doing here because you're just like literally just a product with no story so you're like yeah you run there is a risk there um but but we uh we feel like we rolled the dice and we're playing it the right way.

1:14:57No, it's cool. So you have two products now. The Extra IPA was just launched. Do you have a pipeline for other products? Are you keeping it like one or two SKUs for now? I'm sure this won't come as a huge shocker. But again, back to the minimalist thing, we created Visitor with the intention of just like, with how craft beer traditionally has run, you're putting out a new style every couple months or seasonal things. Some people are kind of throwing shit against the wall, seeing what sticks, seeing what people like. I think we just wanted to have a really small core offering of beers that were all excellent and just like focus on quality in that and not like, you know, use customers as like a testing ground necessarily.

1:15:46So I think it was just like, you know, we only launched our extra IPA last fall. So for the first two years of this brand's existence, we were just rocking with Visitor Original Lager and that was it. We were one SKU. And it's a long way of saying like we want to put out more beers, but we're very focused and intentional on like less can be more and just like less, less beers. But like all of them high quality is what we're ultimately going for. Yeah, I think some of the folks we talk about on the show and, you know, in the space are very limited with their offerings. And I think that's wise. I mean, I have to ask you about Athletic because, of course, like Athletic was like the big first mover in many ways and really led the way.

1:16:39And I think you see Athletic now on a menu and you're almost disappointed. You're like, oh, you got Athletic. I mean, I'll drink it. I like Athletic. It's great. I mean, great product, but like, it's like not, it doesn't signify anything. My editorial here, not yours. What do you think about that brand though? I think it's athletic is really important in that I think they make good beers and they're, they're funded in a way that is opening doors for everyone else to walk in behind them in this category. So like they're doing a lot of hard work for everyone else, which we definitely appreciate.

1:17:27But I think it's almost like I think we're in NA beer 3.0 now. And so if you look at like, OK, 1.0 was your Sharps, your O'Douls, like the stuff that like tasted horrible and also like came with the stigmas of like, oh, you probably have a problem with drinking. if you're seen drinking one of these at a bar. And then there was like 2.0, which I think Athletic was the leader of and I think maybe Best Day falls into as well. Yeah. Where you have like the beers are suddenly good and, you know, but there's maybe like from a branding standpoint, it's more, it's inoffensive, it's mass market. You know, it's not really necessarily like planting flags in any sort of specific cultural references and that to me is like na 2.0 but i think now we're in 3.0 where it's just like the expectation is that for a lot of people is that like okay the beer has to be good and the brand has to fit my lifestyle and there needs to be some kind of emotional resonance with like why i'm drinking what i'm drinking and I think that's what we really focus on at Visitor is just like, how do we build like an emotional connection with these customers?

1:18:49And a lot of the way is just like, let them define the part that it plays in their life. So I know that's a long answer. No, it's a great answer. And I love breaking it down into versions or waves. You know, you're a man of music. So we're talking about like, you know, emo first wave, second wave, third wave vibes here. and I think it's really smart to think about it in eras and I think the 3.0 era is extremely exciting and it's exciting to see folks who aren't in the craft beer world doing their version like when Bells does an NA I'm sure it'll be a big story but that's cool but I like the startups too the new guys like yourself it's very cool yeah it definitely feels like um you know there's an there's a new brand popping up every you know every couple months it feels like yeah and it's just like yeah the the macro the craft brewers like they're all going to come out with their line extensions yep many of them will be good and they'll probably sell a lot of them but i just i i think there's an opportunity for people that haven't necessarily like been endemic in like the capital beer space that have other perspectives and aren't necessarily going by like the beer playbook um and anytime you have such a you know this i think hindsight will be 2020 like we're still in this huge consumer shift and how people are drinking and how much and when and the occasions but anytime you have such a big shift like this like that is the opportunity for innovation to try something different and just to like throw old playbooks away, which is like, that's the fun part of this for us.

1:20:40You said it really well. It's why we love covering NA beer on the show. It's a really, such a cool movement right now in food, in the capital F food media world is this NA beer moment. And yes, the line extensions will happen and they will be pretty good. But I like the innovation happening from the outside of the world. I have to close and ask you, you know, you're a music guy. What are you listening to right now? What's good? Can be old, can be new. I don't need to put any, you don't need to, you know, tell me your Spotify recap, but what are you playing? I'm not going to the Spotify recap, but let's see.

1:21:17What have I been listening to lately? I'm just going to go down the list. There's a band from Asheville, North Carolina called Fust. they just put out a new record that I have been loving there's a guy named Phil Cook who just put out a solo instrumental piano EP that I have been loving I've been listening a lot to the Laws only record the new Hamilton Lighthouser album is really good the new Panda Bear record is really good and then two records from last year that are still in heavy rotation for me are the Knapp Eyes album and the MJ Lenderman record. Yeah, been loving those. Great picks, Rob.

1:22:02I appreciate you opening up your Spotify or your Apple Music, whatever it may be. Yeah, great stuff there. It's nice to talk a little bit about music. And thanks for joining. Visitor of Beers is the brand. I'm a big fan and I'm really going to be, I'm going to be seeking it out in New York. Where can I get it in New York City? Let's give it a plug right now. My favorite spots to get it are, there's a spot called Turks Inn in Bushwick that's almost like a Wisconsin Supper Club inspired spot they carry us and then down the street it's owned by the same people there's a wild roller rink called Xanadu that is kind of new you can find us there so those are my favorite spots to go in New York you are you are absolutely putting your your beers in some cool spaces in new york oh and public public records too yeah love love public records yeah it seems like the strategy is like you're putting them in like places that that are like clubs and have like a lot of activity not just like restaurants yeah it's it's a selfish move um those are the places we want to hang out but uh yeah it's it's uh it's been fun to see people picking it up cool well rob jensen thank you so much for joining this is taste thanks for having me on really appreciate it

1:23:26This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.