608: TASTE Travels: Eating and Drinking Really Well in Portland, Oregon

31:31Um, but around 2009, 2010, um, you know, we realized that diners kind of were like, would come in and be like, well, just feed us. And so we had, we always had an all our cart menu, but then people would be like, just make me a tasty menu. And so then we started offering a tasty menu, but it wasn't like, Hey, this is the tasty menu. It was just the chefs can just make you a tasty menu. You can have five or seven courses. And I would literally be cooking and I would look at the group of people and I would judge them. Not in a negative way, but I would be like, well, these people look like they came to town for a bachelor party and to go crazy.

32:16So I'm going to kill them. or I would see some, you know, maybe some people that were a little bit older that looked like they had really dressed up for dinner. And I'd be like, okay, well, I'm going to try and give them a little bit of a lighter, more progressive tasty menu. But it was all dishes that were off our menu. Everything was designed to be the menu at that point. Everything was designed to be a full size portion that you could order a la carte, or we could pare it down to a tasty menu size portion. And, um, and that was the identity of the restaurant. And it was beautiful. It was like very um frenetic it was busy it was loud it was bustling it was full people were packed in like sardines and life was very very good and we were having a blast um flash forward to the pandemic and getting the chance to reopen and serve you know if we were lucky 20 customers a night with spacing it out and you know just doing the best we can and it was like well i can't have 20 customers come in and maybe someone just gets like a salad and an appetizer and so we were like well we do you know people love our tasting menu so let's just offer a five course tasting menu everyone can prepay and it'll be easy and we can kind of pencil out we know that we can make this work and we can employ a good amount of people doing it and we can you know make ends meet with that and the million other things we were doing it just went over well and at a certain point andy uh foregang my partner and i looked at each other as soon as we could kind of you know kind of trickled up and it's like okay well now we can do 30 people and we're like hey these numbers pencil out this is kind of the direction the restaurant was wanting us to go with how many people were choosing that, that, you know, chef's tasty menu option before the pandemic.

34:07And it was like, kind of like a 50, 50 split and a 60, 40 split. And so it was like, this is, you know, naturally the way kind of, uh, the direction that the people were wanting to go. But before the pandemic, if we were to make a big change like that, I think it would have been kind of like an outcry, right? Like you can't change what you're doing. And so what the pandemic did was afforded us the excuse or the reason behind why we made that change. And also, we do have a hustling and bustling a la carte restaurant that serves very adventurous, fun food right next door. I can't ignore Canard next door, which is a terrific restaurant, too, and a little bit different style.

34:52And you can't ignore that place. so what happened was um before the pandemic canard was small plates more of a wine bar um and that was like hey we're gonna kind of create a waiting area for not a waiting area but like a place like what pigeon had overflow right like you'd sometimes you'd come to dinner and be like hey it's gonna be an hour wait so we created a place for people to go and have some oysters and some wine and wait and um and and and kind of small plates and then the same thing in the pandemic with with canard it was like well we're gonna reopen but we need to make ends me and make it pencil out so canard kind of became like regular like appetizer entree dessert style dining and then so when le pigeon went to tasty menu only then canard kind of became your a la carte uh version of what le pigeon was before in loosely and uh so yeah now we're the taste we're doing the tasty menu um do i miss the old days of like that absolutely like frantic crazy loud wu-tang clan playing um just high energy lapidgen absolutely as a businessman i'm a chef and a chef am i glad that i have like the opportunity to offer like diverse dining uh styles and experiences in my restaurant absolutely like you can't have it all and the tasty menu format has done really well for us um it's still controlled chaos which is fun you know and if i'm working the line that night it's probably a little bit more uh i try you know i'm kind of the only one that still works there other than andy my business partner that from the old school from the old days so i still try and bring some of that like kind of chaotic, fun energy to service.

36:44You'll pop in some extra courses during the tasting. Yeah. And just like, and just like make it a little bit more loud, joke with people a little bit more, have a little bit more of a, just a more of a raucous vibe when I'm on the line. Cause that's the restaurant that I created 20 years ago. Let's talk about your cookbook. 10 speed press published your book, the pigeon cooking at the dirty bird, iconic cover. I feel like it really slid into this era of restaurant books really going above and beyond just a tribute to the restaurant. There was a lot of personality in it. It really told the story of the restaurant book yourself.

37:22Talk about making that book because it's really one of my favorites from that era of the restaurant book. I think it was a really it was a peak era for restaurant books. I don't know that the restaurant book is as prevalent these days as it was. Right. Now it's like the what can you make at home. It's more like the what can you make at home book again or like the celebrity chef, like how to cook healthy food at home. And that, you know, it was right time, right place. I also don't know that as a commercial success, La Pigeon, that cooking at the Dirty Bird was a commercial success. but it did everything I wanted it to do which is it was on line cooks shelves at their house and it was a book that my peers bought that being said making that cookbook was one of the hardest things I've done in my career as far as like projects for a number of reasons one sitting in front of a computer and typing out recipes and writing is not my forte um it did help me in my recipe writing for the restaurant for sure um two uh it was a real tough time in my life uh i actually got sober like two months after that cookbook came out And so like my drinking and drug use was probably at its worst while I was trying to make that cookbook.

38:56And also my wife was pregnant with our second child and she was born not two days before the release of that cookbook. and so it was like this accumulation of a lot of big moments in my life and things that were new and uh challenges not to mention me being at kind of my lowest point with a battle that I was fighting with drugs and alcohol which I eventually overcame and so uh I think that that writing writing that cookbook was one of the things that led to me kind of hitting my bottom but then it was released a couple months later I made he changes my life and I'm super duper proud of it I also need to acknowledge that like working with Meredith Erickson on that book was amazing I mean she is I don't know if you're familiar with her she wrote yeah she wrote Joe I mean Joe Beef is like one of the most amazing cookbooks ever and she getting to work with her and her wanting to work with us she she embodied that like kind of freewheeling shooting from the hip um attitude that cooking at le pigeon was in those days and that those recipes were um and so having that cookbook on people's shelves or on my shelf at my house is now something that was super difficult for me to do from a like actual work and do it perspective.

40:32But it's something that I'm extremely proud of. And when I look at that book, I think that came out the way I wanted it to come out. Great story there, Gabriel. And I think that I'm happy you shared overcoming drug and alcohol abuse and it's something that you take very seriously and you've promoted in organizations and back to the book I think it's it's really a document of a time and place and that's why cookbooks are so powerful especially restaurant cookbooks when you go back into a time you can really learn about the style of cooking through the eras through the generations we're working on a big piece at taste on the Charlie Trotter cookbook which was I'm sure you own that I'm sure you've read?

41:18You know, the dessert cookbook probably had the most impact on me because before I moved to Portland, when I was, I told you earlier in the podcast that I, you know, in my entire career, I've been in charge of like creating dishes and, you know, having to be creative. And when I, when I, when I left Napa where I grew up and moved to Santa Cruz and got a job at a restaurant, I was, I was the pastry chef at like, you know, 20 years old with no pastry experience and so i would go home at night and just pour through charlie trotter's desserts and try and not replicate those desserts but i mean the flavor combinations and the stuff that he was doing back in the 90s uh really inspired a lot of the stuff that i aspired to create you know in my very early days of thinking about flavor and texture and combinations that's the power of cookbooks right there from a professional point of view at least but i think for a home cook who's ambitious you can learn so much about the eras and and i'm it's cool to hear about that you took that book and ran with it and as a cookbook writer like i never want someone to open up my cookbook and just make one of those recipes from start to finish with the exception of a couple of them right we had to put a couple recipes in there that um that were like hey a novice cook can just go from point A to point B and have this salad on their plate.

42:44But I think that the real point of a cookbook, especially a restaurant cookbook, is for someone to open it up and think, not what did they do and how can I do it exactly the same way, but what did they do? And then I can go to the farmer's market and what can I do? And so if you're looking at a recipe in a restaurant cookbook, don't make that exact recipe. Make part of that recipe and then make the rest of what you create your own and use it as a jumping off point. And I think that the cookbook should really be jumping off points for your own cooking, not replicating someone else's cooking. I agree with you fully.

43:22And it's a great, great idea with restaurant books. Gabriel Rucker, thank you so much for joining us as Dazed. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

43:59That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt. My friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception.

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45:16As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Earl Nimsen, it's so great to speak with you. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm great. Well, let's go right into it. You run an incredible range of restaurants. Eam, Hat Yai, Langban, Padi, Phuket Cafe, Yaorat. I've spoken about many of them on the show. We've had guests speak about them.

46:00And I just want to know from you, what's the common thread that ties all these restaurants together? So first of all, the favorites of this one is both. The favorites and apologetics is what we have in the country and also like respect to tradition. And then when we create something, we're trying to have a balance of like creativities and feel personal and generous. That's when we do something, but also have a deep root to what exactly going on in the country. Yeah, I mean, it ranges. You've got noodles, and you've got curries, and you've got the North represented. You've got Bangkok represented.

46:44You've got Southern Islands represented. How do you think about regionality in Thailand when you're putting together these restaurants? So when we first do something, it's more about what I grew up eating, childhood memory at first. And then Hadiyai is southern, which is where my dad's site is from. So we did the menu for that restaurant at Langban when we first opened. And the sad part about the tasting menu restaurant is once it's finished, it's never coming back. So one of the dishes on the menu was the fried chicken and sticky rice. That sort of reminded me of my childhood grew up eating. So one of the partners was a beverage director for us.

47:38And he wanted to do something. He actually wanted to open a bar. And he asked me to help with the food. And I was like, okay, we have this. fried chicken and curry and like roti and sticky rice so it could be good for the bar and thai style and then eventually i feel like there's a lot more to offer from southern thai cuisine why don't we just make another whole another restaurant that's actually represent what is missing in the state side outside of thailand and do something that's real that sort of remind people of where this is coming from. And yeah, it's become its own unique spot that's sort of also giving me confidence of like you can do something that's free or that's authentic and people appreciate it.

48:27It's so well said. I mean, it's taking these regional dishes and expanding the audience by offering these restaurants that are single topic, so to speak. Let's go back a little bit. Tell me about moving to Portland from Thailand. You know, via L.A., you were there for a short stint. What did you find in Portland, and what led you to open your first restaurant, Thai Cottage, in 2008? So I first moved to L.A. to study ESL and stay with my cousin who has a restaurant out there. And I lived there for six months, and I feel like environment and people remind me a lot of Bangkok, which I moved from.

49:14It doesn't make me feel like I'm living in America. So I didn't enjoy being there as much and talk to my other friends and we decided we should move out and explore what it is that some US has to offer. So we just drove out without any destination, just like drop up north first. And then we met, we stopped at a Thai restaurant in downtown Portland that she, the owner, letting us, like connect us with her cousin. So we stayed with her cousin and then they find a job, a place to stay. And we feel like this city is, with the people who are so kind and generous and helping each other make me feel more comfort and more feel like this is the place I wanted to be more than LA where people are like more hustling, more sort of like competing, not really care about each other.

50:19So people is the first factor that I decided this is the city I like. And then the rain actually, because where I am from, my dad is from Southern Thailand. It's Korean a lot. it's like six to eight months as well. So I get used to this environment that's better. And with geography, there's like mountains, there is oceans surrounded. So it's from a kid who grew up in southern Thailand, you sort of like this family environment that I can feel like comfort being here. I love that sentiment. You know, Gabriel Rucker shares similar thoughts on this episode about the Portland community being so supportive of restaurants.

51:08And I love to hear that. I mean, it's clear when you visit there that community is important. Take me to Thai Cottage in 2008. Like, what's this restaurant like? Because, you know, I'm setting this up because, you know, Earl, you won the biggest restaurant award that can be given, Outstanding Restaurant. It's like truly the best picture of the Oscars. And you won it last year for Long Ban, and I got to have a meal there, and we can talk about it. But talk about your foundation. So the first restaurant is something we just wanted to open just so we can survive and have something for our family.

51:44Because in 2008, there was a political conflict in Thailand, and they were shooting in the middle of the city. and my mom being a nice as she is she volunteered at a nursing camp to help people who got injured why they are shooting right out front so we feel like it's great that she did that but it's also not safe for her to be there so we apply an investor visa for my sister my brothers and her to come leave here just so we can be away and feel safe as a family and also open a restaurant is something that I know what to do and how to do it. Since I've been here and what we were doing is work at a restaurant by going to school or do something and also work in all the positions in another restaurant before.

52:35So I kind of have the knowledge of how to run a specific kind of restaurant that I can train my brothers to be in the kitchen with me and my sister can run the front of the house. and my mom was helping us doing whatever she wanted to do so we can take care of her and be together and be safe. So we did that for a year and I just feel miserable because of the food that we did wasn't what I want to be eating. So back then, all the restaurants in Poland are doing sort of the same style of food, so pretty much Americanized Thai food. So I miss all the food I grew up eating, like noodle dishes. What's the first one that I think about every time that you're not working?

53:26Let's stick there for a second. I have a question. What is this feeling of misery? I mean, this is incredible that you were running a restaurant, you're opening a restaurant, you're serving this food, but you're miserable. Not about the business, but about the style of food. You know, what are you serving that is making you miserable and what are you dreaming of? It's just a typical, like, curry with the curry, the watery down curry. That's something that I didn't enjoy as much growing up. And, like, all the things that I see at all the other restaurants, the same dishes, like hot Thai, pineapple fried rice, So something that people here sort of know what Thai food is.

54:14And they would just, when they come to most Thai restaurants back then, they would just go, okay, I want this red curry, yellow curry with this meat that they like. Which is not the way we eat back home for the most part. That's like the food that I saw when I first moved to the U.S., especially moved to Portland. And I feel like, okay, this is what people are eating, so we can cook this for them. But what about us when we want actual Thai food? We don't really have any option. So, yeah, that's like the food that we could eat occasionally for us. That's just to refill ourselves, just to have something to eat.

54:58The flavor is kind of like sweet forward in general, a little bit of spice not as aromatics so just something that the majority of the people in the non-Ouest can have but yeah that's sort of like there's a lot more to Thai foods Let me ask you about getting away from Pad Thai and thinking about noodles because you've got Pad Thai which is many different forms in America and it's a very beloved dish But then you're thinking about noodles. There is a noodle history in Thailand that isn't Pad Thai, that isn't this one dish that many know. So how do you think about noodles beyond the Pad Thai? So I always go back to what I grew up eating because I always go to the market for our families.

55:56and like while I'm doing market run, I would stop by at the Boat Noodle Shop or some other like Yentapo, which is a fermented tofu broth or just a simpler Tom Yum noodle. So there's a lot of varieties to choose from. So I was like, okay, I miss that. I would want to do that kind of food that I hope people would enjoy. so then you can choose like different type of noodles you can choose different type of broth you could do a small bowl you could do a large bowl it's the broth i mean you think about broth and pad thai and there's no connection between broth and pad thai so just that element alone is is so cool right and it's most satisfying to to me too it's like there's more fun more depth to it.

56:49That's spider sweetness. This acid is all in harmony. That's completely different than just the sweeter side noodles that we have back in the day at most places. Well, I read a terrific piece on Rezzy from Kat Thompson about, it was a profile, and I'd read it was terrific, and I read this really interesting moment in your life. You meet David Thompson, a chef based in Thailand who's written books about Thailand you'd read the books but you had never had his food and you meet him at a food festival in Portland and it changes your trajectory as a chef I'd love to hear about that interaction with David in Portland and what it inspired you to do so there's an event called Feeds Portland but in the day that's now I think that's a discontinued and then David was here and what he served was a grilled mussel called S-sauce which is a southern Thai marinade and just that skipper itself has the really nice aromatics in it that I didn't know what it was so I was like, whoa, what's going on in this one and later on I get to start at Nam and see the process the thought behind the depth in it.

58:18That's like they actually smoke this mussel. And what they use to smoke is like coconut, lemon glass, galangals in the process. So like give this nice aromatics and Thai sense to it. Actually, okay, this is nothing like I have heard or known before. And as far as like cooking, home cooking or cooking with any other restaurant, outside even in Portland or in Thailand. So that's the element of the dish that makes every dish interesting, even the freshness, the way they poach the ingredients. So I was staging for two weeks and then I was at the salad station. So everything makes fresh mix to order and they sort of like poaching thing in coconut instead of like just push in water or something as I used to at the other kitchen.

59:22So I feel like, okay, that's a lot more Thai cuisine that I didn't know about. So I get to learn all those techniques and then get what's like deep into it and sort of like go back to this book and read and see what more I did not know about in Thai cuisine. Yeah, it's like a, it's an amazing story that you kind of rediscover Thai cooking from this guy who visited you in Portland and you go to Thailand and you visit and you stage and then you return to Portland with all these ideas. What's it like when you return and you're thinking about growing your group and thinking about the opening of Long Ban, which, you know, as a tasting menu, it is exceptional.

1:00:11I mean yeah back then when after the start I just feel like okay that's that's that's that's that's that's really good and trying to think of how can we improve upon what already exists in Thailand so our NAM was offered an ala card menu and that was the night that I went and I didn't know what to order I ordered several things but ended up being the dish I ordered shouldn't be ordered together so it sounds like make the experience not as complete um based out of that i feel like okay how after being left kitchen after you know all these flavors of the dish what to make it more enjoyable more better experience is you sort of come up with the menu that can go together nearly one will have more high acidity, one will have more spicy, one will be more sweetness.

1:01:13So when you eat all this together, you just have more balance. So that's sort of like the idea behind Langban. We're going to do the main courses go well together. We're going to offer the food from underrepresented regional in Thailand that hasn't been offered outside of Thailand. And we're going to change the menu to our regional and throughout the ingredients that we could get here. So there's a sense of place and there's a sense of like discovery when people coming here. And also for us get to do research every month, because back then we changed menu on like very often, like monthly we changed completely.

1:01:57Wow, that's so much work to do monthly menus? It was a lot of work. It was a lot of stressful, but after the menus, like, after we come up with a menu, we actually enjoy and improv of each one of that, and it's sort of satisfying. It's sort of like, I feel like I enjoy being in stress, but it's also, it's like, well rewarded after it's been done, and you sort of like, okay, this is actually a good and interesting Tell me about the current Longban that I got to experience. I mean, when I was there, the menu was seafood, and that was the focus. I know you've done street food, you've done southern, you've done lots of these themes.

1:02:40How does it work today for visiting Longban for a meal? So each menu, so we plan the menu for the whole year, and we look at what it is out here and what hasn't been represented. and beginning of that month we did a weekend menu for a week because we never done i mean in 12 in 10 years we already do weekend menu once and we feel like we haven't done this we should do a weekend menu for a week and then after that what else hasn't been done so we haven't focused on the seafood menu ever so we should try to offer something that exists in the country We, in spite of the seafood dish that we have in Thailand that hasn't been offered as much outside of Thailand, and then come up with the dish, make sure we did that's half roots to the original one, and then bring the ingredients that we can find here locally, both Asian and ingredient that we find from the market, to incorporate into the dish.

1:03:52Let me ask you, you were in Chicago last summer and you hear a name called for Outstanding Restaurant. Take the stage in Chicago. Biggest award, I mean, I said at the top, but this is the biggest award in restaurants. What's that like? I mean, that is quite an experience, a heady experience. What's that like? Something that we never thought we could achieve, to be honest. It's the first time that this award has been given to a restaurant in Oregon. So definitely a big, yeah, it was an honor for us to achieve this award, to receive this award. It's definitely a transformative moment for Langban.

1:04:33It marks the first time that Oregon Restaurant has received this British honor. it's not only recognized the excellence of the community of Lamban but it's also like the contribution that we do to the communities, to the dining scene overall in the US because after Lamban has been opened we have seen a lot more movement as far as Thai restaurants and then we see a restaurant in New York that's offered really spicy food. I think Ugly maybe was doing a little cool thing. You see a lot more chefs that move to the U.S. and start doing their own thing. They all know about us. We sound like that's quite something that we achieved so people can be confident and be their own self and cook the food that they know that they like and be honest and enjoy doing that.

1:05:41It's got to be gratifying to see all of these restaurants around the country, the Holy Basil's, the Ugly Babies, the places that are doing food that is highly personal and highly regionalized in some ways and mostly highly personal. And you being the leader, that's got to be really gratifying. Let me ask you, how are the restaurants doing? I mean, you've got this group, and you're clearly on top of the tastes and trends of Portland by opening these restaurants with risk. I mean, you're opening all these restaurants. You're running them in a small city. How do you stay in touch with the tastes and trends, and how are they doing?

1:06:26I think, first of all, we are not a trend chaser. so Gershon is doing well and also evolving it's more of like reopening it between intention and identity so each one has its own identities that represent certain area of the country and when we do something we are thinking about this unit as why while we're doing it, is it missing the representation of this cuisine or not? Like, that's the neighborhood needed it or not? That's when we sort of, like, plan something. Like, when we do Yawarab, which is a Thai-Chinese restaurant, we just feel like, okay, this is underrepresented outside of Thailand, and there's a lot more really cool and interesting dishes we have seen and we grew up eating.

1:07:29That's really delicious. So we should do it and do it with confidence and do it with more depth knowledge about it. So we did, I think, three research trips with the team just to do the tasting. Sometimes we even take a takeout and put it in a thermal bottle and bring it back, either the sauce or the broth, just so we could like that coolie man as what it is actually out there so we can sort of replicate that dish that has been wait you're bringing back bottles of broth and sauce you're bringing it back yeah we I ordered it's like a Darash of Thailand it's called Grab to send to my condo so I ordered like whatever dish that we like and then there's some noodle dish that I really like So I just bought a thermal bottle, pack it in the bottles, pack it in my suitcase and bring it back and have a test between all the chefs that's doing.

1:08:37That's recipe development. And she's like, okay, this is what it is out there. We wanted to represent this cuisine, this region or this area. So we wanted to make it as close as we can so people kind of like know about this specific spot or region. That's an incredible scene, thinking about you returning to Portland. You're in your kitchen, and you crack the bottle, this thermal bottle of this broth, and you've got all your staff huddled around. What's that like? That's so cool. It is cool. Because after you're living here for a while, you forget what it tastes like. then that's sort of like giving you a master like recipe basically and you can just taste okay this is what it is then we know like what's the first flavor you recognize when you eat it then what are we doing how like if it's different than we know like we could write down the flavors profile of this one, then when we sort of like working on that dish, we have the knowledge of like what's the spice, what's the flavors, what's the aroma on that one, then we sort of like, okay, this is closest that we can with the ingredients we could get out here in Portland.

1:10:01So it's fun. It's fun for the team. They all get to do something that they haven't done and we are proud when we crack the code because that looks simple, but it's not as simple. Sometimes we even take a video of that spot, of how they cook it, what's the trick behind it. It doesn't look so simple. Then figuring out what did we do wrong and eventually be able to figure out. It's fun. Can we talk about coconut broth? Because at Longbarn, I had coconut broth that and I spoke about with Liza. I mean, it really, and I've been to Thailand. I've been lucky enough to go there a couple times and you, I've never had anything like it anywhere in the world.

1:10:50It was incredible. That one, that's a trick because usually people would just do a coconut milk and season it. What makes it unique is so you sort of buy fresh coconut and roast it whole in the high temperature for probably 15 to 30 minutes just to get that nice aromatic smokiness of the cold water. So you add that in, sort of add an element of aromatics to the broth. So I keep that uniqueness to that specific ditch that most plants doesn't have time or maybe don't know what to do with this to sort of bring another element to the ditch. Yeah, that's sort of been kind of a trick to a lot of good curry that we do.

1:11:46So we would add roasted coconut water just to add in sort of bodies and aroma to that. Your kitchen's amazing. I got to watch it firsthand, some of the prep. But I know there's so much work that's done even ahead of service. So I couldn't see all that great prep work. Well, Earl, this has been a real pleasure catching up with you. I'm really inspired by your work. I think you're such a savvy operator and a talented chef. And I just wish you all the best and success. Thank you, Matt. Thanks for having me.

1:12:22So, Liza, we are back and talking about the visit to Portland. I have a few more restaurants I want to highlight on this amazing trip. So there's a bar, I call it a craft beer bar, called Horse Brass Pub. that I have done some research because when I got this on my recommendation list, I was like, I want to check this out. And apparently this is a bar that really to get your beer on the tap, it was a bit of a grail for young beer brewers, craft beer brewers. And it was almost like an honor to get on the tap and it took years sometimes to establish your brewing. So they are well regarded for their craft beer.

1:13:02But as a non-drinker myself, I was curious about it and I was delighted by the NA menu that I'm going to say emphatically is right now the greatest to my knowledge, of course, right? And if you have other examples, but it is like the best NA beer and drinks menu I've ever come across in restaurants in America. High praise. Wow. High praise. I want to go over the list right now. This is a single menu for N.A. They have Bitter Burger on tap. More about that later. Two Town Sidekick, Altitude Spritz. They have two Athletics, Best Day, Corona, Deschutes, Guinness, Self Care, two of those, St. Agrestus, Sierra Nevada, and three Untitled Art.

1:13:48All N.A. beers. And what I really like is, and I'm stealing this from Jordan. We've talked about N.A. beers a bit and he's written about it. when you go to a bar and there's actual NA on draft, which is really rare, you know that they're serious about it and they have NA beer on draft. So I would recommend this bar, Horse Press Pub, if you are into craft beer. But to me, on the NA side, I was extremely excited. I tried a few of them, loved it. Okay. Where else did you go? Well, I got to pay a visit to Hanok. And I want want to talk about Hanok because Hanok is by the chef Peter Cho. He was in my book, Korea World.

1:14:28I've known Peter for many, many years since before he moved to Portland and was a chef here in New York City. And Peter's not been on the show yet. And I hope at some point he can get on. But Hanok is truly one of my favorite restaurants doing Korean food in America. It's always exciting. And what's exciting is he switches up the format quite often. And to me, that feels exciting. And And I got to pop in for a new menu and to set the table. You know, the restaurant is extremely unique. It's in kind of a former garage with a courtyard. Have you been? Yeah, I have been before. Sorry. I'm like explaining something that you've seen.

1:15:04How do you describe it? No, I'm just agreeing with you that it's in a former garage. I think if someone is listening and they haven't heard, that's the perfect way to picture it. Okay. It's like a former garage where there's like an apartment in there. I mean, the kitchen is open. It's a really, really cool place. And the menu, I've had menus there where he was doing mostly jungle and like large soups. It was like more of a soup format. I think he's done a kimbap menu in the past. I didn't try that one personally. But this phase of the menu is jibap, which is home cooked food, which is kind of a broad term.

1:15:40But I think you'll get it as I talk about the cuisine. you know his mom plays a big role in the menu and her own kimchi is in the is served as the panchan but it's 65 dollars a person which i think is a tremendous value and the jip-bop portion which comes across the table as like a number of small plates this isn't the typical panchan it's not like the standard kimchis and namuls and things just for light bites this is actually a full meal and I'll explain you know they have kale salad with braised mushrooms these beautiful caramelized carrots with whipped tofu ricotta they're doing a flounder with fermented fresno pepper in a broth they're doing a crab and egg with dungeness which is kind of like a garam gym play which is like the bubbly egg and that's just a start and then you you select your your main kind of like Kisa in New York is doing this idea which I think they're they're kind of doing similar things right now there's colby jim there's um a kimchi cured pork rib um halibut which i tried and absolutely love i love that like you know brothier um you know fish that's cooked down in the most beautiful way i love a joram and then um they have uh these if you're a vegetarian they have perilla oil noodles which um i cannot eat enough of and for dessert they have coffee jelly tiramisu.

1:17:02Yum. Nice closing dish there, Peter Cho. So it's Hanok and I just love this restaurant. I think if you're in Portland and you want a really unique dining experience, definitely check out Hanok. Okay, where else should I go? A few more to go. I have two more restaurants and then another closing shout out. I got to only have lunch here because obviously I've had a lot of food, but I really wanted to check this out. Jordan had recommended it. And it's brand new. It's called Javelina Indigenous Cuisine. And it's a brand new place. I think they opened up earlier this year from the chef Alexa Numkenna Anderson, who was born in Yakima, Washington and grew up on the Yakima Reservation in Topanish, Washington.

1:17:44I hope I got that right, the pronunciations. But I really enjoyed it. I had a beautiful salad and a fry bread taco, which had a bison and bean chili with diced tomatoes, sour cream, lettuce on top. So it was kind of like an open taco. Really delicious food. But I'm excited about the evolution of this restaurant. I know it's brand new, and I'm hoping others can write about it and I can check it out. They're doing, for dinner, for more heartier dishes, they're doing wild salmon and corn husk, a bison meat loaf and elk and bison skewers. And the desserts look amazing. Incredible. There's a blue corn cake that just spoke to me on the menu.

1:18:23And I hope to go back when I'm back in Portland. It's called Javelina Indigenous Cuisine. Okay, what's your last restaurant? Last one, you may have heard about it, guys. It's called Lovely's 50-50. Yeah, you been? Yeah, pizza. Yeah, pizza. Now, I'm stupid. I didn't realize this was the restaurant featured on Netflix's Chef's Table Pizza Edition, one of the four chefs featured there, five or six. I don't know. It was a very small note. So, like, this is a Netflix Chef's Table restaurant, which means— Big lines. I waited for 90 minutes. Yeah. Like, I got there at five. I put my name on the list, and it's like 90 at five.

1:18:58It's a lot. Not my style. And I got to hang out on Mississippi Avenue, so I got to, like, walk around Mississippi and really, you know, catch up with the— the hood and Tamar and I got a nice time when we were waiting and then we like hung out in the restaurant a little bit but 90 minutes is a long fucking time and the quote was accurate I was like oh yeah 90 they'll call us in 45 no it was like a legit 90 minute wait but I would say was it worth it was it worth it yes it was worth it it was a delicious pizza if waiting for pizza is your thing and you have a you're in a city and you want to try a new pizza and exciting pizza New York I wouldn't wait 90 minutes because we've got great pizza here Portland maybe has less options.

1:19:39But the pizzas are from the chef Sarah Minnick, who again was featured on that Chef's Table episode, that memorable episode that I have not watched, but many have said it's one of the better ones of that series. And it was spring again, so I was trying out lots of spring pizzas. One had fava pea greens and green garlic with scallions and talagio. Talagio is a pizza cheese underrated. Sounds really good. Super underrated, great pizza. I also had one with wild rams and amaranth and roasted spring onions and with a sheep feta so i was going kind of that lighter uh white sauce pie style i wasn't really doing tomatoes on this visit and i would say say the the style is like the neo neapolitan uh very quick rise in the hot oven they came out really dark i think that's maybe their point of view maybe a little darker than i like for neapolitan didn't really hold me back at all i loved it it was terrific pizza if the wait was 10 minutes i'd I'd be like, damn, this is exceptional pizza, but it was 90 minute wait.

1:20:38Anyways, it's not really we don't need to talk about the wait anymore. It was just a really good experience. And it stands up to the hype. It's lovely. It's 50 50. I do like lovely's. But you haven't mentioned my favorite Portland restaurant. I've been waiting this whole time. I know I couldn't go to your place. Please shout it out. OK, I mean, it's it's an establishment. But Nong's common guy for Thai chicken and rice is famous for a good reason, I would say. OK, here's the story about Nong's. I it was the plan was have you been before two times okay that's okay two times or three I mean literally when I was on doing the book when I was shooting the book with Alex and Duki we went right from the airport I mean like as long as you've been I think yes you don't have to go back if you're trying to eat at like 20 other places but I will say so simple so good if there was locations in New York I'd have it for lunch like every day it's so basically it's like a hiney style chicken but I mean it's it's like boiled chicken and it's the cleanest most pristine chicken you're going to have.

1:21:35It's just so delicious. Beautiful broth that has like ginger and pandan and garlic and the kind of chili sauce you put on top. So good. Rice with that broth. The broth is really the best part. You're right. That's my spot. But you said you have one more for the trip, right? Well, I have one more mention and is where I stayed because I'd stayed there 15 years ago on my very first trip to Portland. And I got to go there again. And I was so happy to to make a return visit to the Kennedy School, which is part of McMinimins. It's been operating for 20 plus years and it's up in Northeast. It's in a wonderful neighborhood.

1:22:14If you want to be in a great neighborhood and great location when you're in Portland, definitely say the Kennedy School. So Kennedy School is an old school and it still feels very much like a school. Like the hallways are like walking down the hallways of an elementary school, very high ceilings. What's cool is there's multiple bars. There's a small cocktail bar. there's a beer bar there's a restaurant there they have a movie theater um uh in the in the hotel um that plays second run theater i think it's like five bucks a ticket really really comfy seats and they have a a warm uh bath there like a like a warm pool that that it's more of a community space so i think it's not like fully a hotel there's like lots of folks from the neighborhood going in the pool going to the movie theater and love the vibe there um and i will keep going back to Kennedy School, and that's my hotel rec for visiting Portland.

1:23:04I'm so glad you had such a good and delicious trip. Thanks, Eliza, for letting me indulge. I mean, it was such a great trip and really hope we can go back. Maybe me, you, and Clayton can go back for some on-the-ground reporting. Yeah, sounds like we'll have a lot of spots to check out either way. Thanks for catching up, Eliza. Yeah, thanks for sharing.

1:23:27This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.