609: ​​Dan Giusti Is Bringing Restaurant Chefs Into School Cafeterias

25:43It's like, OK, so the only reason you're here is this. And then they'll like tax some little thing at the end. And I like to feed kids. The kids, yeah. Love kids. So it is difficult. And, you know, don't get me wrong. I think there are a lot of people on our team who are burned out from working in restaurants. But I think there's a difference between burned out from working and like burned out in terms of working in restaurants and like burned out. And I hate to say that, but we meet some people that I think are genuinely in a place where they need to like just take a step back and really think about what they want to do because you can feel it on them.

26:14You can feel like they've had a negative experience and they're just grasping at straws to see like and that that freaks me out because we need someone who's like ready to go. So some people are like, I'm done working in restaurants, but I'm like super energetic. Because what we're getting into is challenging. We need someone who's like ready to go. It's not just the work in the kitchen, but showing up every day with the energy and the positivity and the patience to get folks in these kitchens really interested in what we're doing. That's really challenging work mentally. It takes a toll on you.

26:46You can't have somebody who's like just really just generally tired. And I feel like sometimes we meet people who are like, again, they need to like step back, recharge, maybe rethink of what they want to do and then maybe come back to us. But that's a hard that's a hard kind of decision to make sometimes. Yeah. So what is like success look like for a school in this program? What kinds of food is being served and like who's getting to eat it? Yeah. So I think success looks different everywhere. And it's and I think the way you have to look at it is like so every school district we work with is like at a different place.

27:19You know, some are already starting to cook a little bit from scratch. Some are serving primarily heat and serve meals that come prepackaged. So success for that latter school district might just be, okay, we're going to start making salad dressings from scratch. That's awesome. Okay, that's a win. And then you kind of progressively move from there. The district that's already cooking things from scratch, it's like, okay, like we need to keep this moving. And then success is continuously changing. I think this is one of the most challenging things of the work we do. Because like, for example, at NOMA, it's like there's right and then there's not.

27:56And every day you would show up and do everything you could. And it had to be right. And that's it. And then tomorrow we're going to do it again. It's going to be right tomorrow and perfect tomorrow and perfect next day. In this space, it's like we might be out of 10, we might be at a 1 or 2 or 3 or 4. And it might take years to get to 10. But every day you need to be trying to get better. Like any school district you talk out there who's trying to make their school food better, regardless if we work with them or not. They're going to tell you there's a million things that they want to make better.

28:30They're not complacent. They're just trying to figure out how to do that. And it's really hard and you can't just do it. It takes time. It could take years. So I think, you know, success is going to look different year after year if you're really being ambitious. And I think that's hard to do though. It's hard to continuously be ambitious day after day when you're not like reaching that like ultimate goal. When you like you're hitting that goal day after day, it's easy to come back and do it again. Because, you know, you've done it. But when you're like, like, and sometimes if things get a little slower for whatever reason, you know, there's a setback or whatever it may be, it can be hard.

29:07And then from the success perspective, again, you know, we work in school districts that have two schools. We work in school districts that have 100. and success in a school district that has two schools is probably going to be much more ambitious than success in a school that maybe ambitious isn't the right word, but, you know, cooking from full blown meals from scratch in a school district that has two schools, maybe not that difficult in a school district that has a hundred. That's extremely difficult. So, you know, success in a school district, a smaller school district, or sorry, a district that maybe is just getting started could be making nice sandwiches, well-made sandwiches that are wrapped nicely.

29:46I'd say that's a success that kids enjoy eating. In a school district that we've been in for two, three years, we might be talking about like one district we work in, you know, they serve like one of the dishes they have is like, you know, slow roasted pork shoulder with rice and peas. Yum. And it's delicious and it's very ambitious. And that's not every school district can just do that, but it's pretty amazing that they're able to do that. And that's where they're at because they've been doing this for a long time. Yeah. And the kids like must notice that something is up and different in the cafeteria.

30:16For sure. I mean, yes and no. I, you know, it depends where you're at. I think there, that's another thing. Like there are some things that we do that you just, you expect like, oh, the kids are going to see these. And then either they don't see it or they see it and they don't like it. It's not always how you expect it to go. I think there are a lot of times there are a lot of moments where we feel like we've made some progress in a food service program and maybe no one really sees it and yeah I'm so naive I'm like the kids must notice that there's fresh green beans instead of frozen yeah and it depends I mean the kids obviously are smart I also have this feeling like and I try to tell our chefs when they join this thing of like you know when you work in a restaurant you do a good job like Noma okay so So every night there or every service, you gave kitchen tours after service.

31:10And I always remember after, basically after I would give a kitchen tour, and I would usually give like, you know, the folks that we were really, you know, if they were food critics or whatever, and it was like every service these people were there. And I would usually personally give them the tour. And I remember after every tour, Renee Rizzepi would be like, so how was it? Like, what did they say? And it was a great time to get like debrief of a guest. You had like 45 minutes that you're just talking and trying to find out, like, what did they think of the meal? And if I didn't have something exclamatory to tell him, like, literally, it was the best meal they ever had.

31:41I think that was like the only thing that he wanted to hear. If it was like, oh, they said it was great. He'd be like, OK. And rightfully so. It was like, no, it was the best meal they've ever eaten. He'd be like, OK, awesome. Like, yes. And that feels amazing when you hear that. But in a school, you know, it shouldn't be these kids responsive. Like, yeah, it's great when kids are polite and they say thank you. And there's different times throughout the year where, you know, classrooms are sending letters to the cafeteria to say thank you and this and that. But, like, it should be our responsibility if we're going to ask these kids to go to school all day that they get a nice meal and they can eat it and feel good about it.

32:20And then, like, go on with their day. It shouldn't be this, like, you know, they're going to cheer you on. Like, yes. Yeah. So like, if anything, like I usually say, like, if we're successful, you probably won't hear much. Like you hear no complaining. Kids are happy. They're eating their meal. And yeah, occasionally, yeah, you will hear a kid be like, this is awesome. But you don't, you really don't hear a lot of that. And that's like, you have to like recalibrate how you determine success. Like if kids are eating the food, like they are finishing plates of food, that is awesome. And more kids are eating the food in general.

32:53You know, we're always measuring percentage of kids choosing to eat versus not. That is awesome. Like these are the things that you just have to watch and pay attention to and not wait for a student to tell you, wow, hey, great job today. That might not come. Yeah. Normalize the fact that they're just getting good food. They should. And in my opinion, that's their right. And it shouldn't be, you know, this expectation that they're, you know, that they have to come and say thank you. I just, you know, I don't think that's something that we should expect. Yeah. So I grew up going to public school and I feel like budget for everything was always a big concern.

33:27And I imagine that that's still the case today. And I'm curious about how that kind of factors into everything for the chefs. If they are able to, you know, if they have those frozen meals that you just reheat and they want to start buying fresh ingredients. Is that I imagine it's more expensive? Like how does that whole component work? Yeah. So just, you know, I could tie it up pretty neatly and succinctly because it gets like, you know, it's like giant topic to talk about. But essentially the way the National School Lunch Program works is a school district serves a meal. And if they're participating in the National School Lunch Program, which most school districts do, they get a certain amount of money back from the government.

34:06So I say, I'm going to serve a lunch that meets these nutritional guidelines. So you have to meet these nutritional guidelines. So that's a big hurdle. So this year, the base reimbursement rate, there's a lot of different ways to get kind of for there to be more money tacked onto this number is$4.43 for lunch. Out of that$4.43, we are usually targeting about$1.50 to$1.75 for food cost. So that's what we're spending on ingredients for food,$1.50,$1.75 to put together a lunch. Very challenging. in terms of going away from a lot of processed foods to more fresh foods there's a little bit of a like a swap in the two major levers it's like food and labor are the biggest costs when you have primarily processed foods food cost is actually pretty high because it's all processed it's all put together ready labor costs are very low because you're just heating things up so we just see a swap we start buying more whole foods which we could argue are better ingredients and also less expensive because they're whole ingredients.

35:08You know, we're not in most cases going out buying organic this and organic that. There are some opportunities in some places, primarily in California where we work, to get more local produce, seasonal produce, sometimes organic produce. But generally that's challenging in our price point. But we can go to more whole ingredients so our food cost goes down, but now we need to prepare those ingredients so our labor cost goes up. But we stay within the same budget. You know, the big difference between what we do in, say, like a retail environment. And I always bring this up, like on my social media, I'll post a picture, a video, something we're doing.

35:41I did it recently where I was really proud of a video of one of our partnerships. And all the comments were just like, you use so much plastic. Why do you use so much plastic? And those are all the comments. That's all people cared about. Nobody cared about the fact that like this person on our team is like cooking scratch meals for kids. And look, I get that. We live in a day and a day. Like, we need to be better about that. Thing is, like, plastic's cheap. There's a reason people use plastic. And people still use styrofoam in a lot of schools, which sounds crazy. But styrofoam literally costs nothing.

36:14It's not. It's terrible for the environment. If we want to go to compostable items, they're significantly more expensive, which I'm not saying we shouldn't. But it's not like at Starbucks, like, if they go to a compostable straw instead of a plastic straw, like, they can just charge, like, 15 more cents on the$5 latte. and nobody cares. We can't charge more money. So if we spend, you know, 10, 15 cents extra per compostable tray, that has to come from somewhere. And we're already buying like, you know, it's not like we're buying the best produce or chicken out there, proteins. So now all of a sudden it's like, well, you have 15 cents less because you're using compostable trays.

36:51So you're gonna have to take that away from the chicken, the produce. And then I would pose that question back to people. Like, would you rather us spend more money on the food, the ingredients that kids are consuming, or the wares that they're eating the food on? And that's a really hard question to answer. It's really hard. Yeah, it's one of those like infinite feedback questions that we all encounter about how we consume things in daily life. And I imagine, you know, not to point fingers, but some of the people commenting probably are using plastic in their own homes as well. Sure. And, you know, to be fair, like if one school district, even a small school district, or let's just say even a singular school works to decrease the amount of plastic that they're using or styrofoam that they're using.

37:38Just one school making small adjustments, which that's what we typically do. We work with districts to make these adjustments. Some of the school districts we work in, it's all compostable or even reusable. You know, they're not even, it's all reusable trays. is one school, the impact that that has is so much higher than one individual. Like, you know, the individual saying, well, I do this in my own life. It's like, okay, it doesn't really make much. To be fair, it doesn't make much of an impact. One singular school making those changes, just the small changes, doesn't need to be wholesale, no plastic.

38:11It's like, well, maybe we can move from, you know, plastic forks to using compostable forks, and that's like a good step in the right direction. that has so much more impact than one individual and but it's also so much more hard to make those changes yeah and the reusable forks like that's not an option because of the like time spent to wash all the dishes well see but see that's a great that's a great point that's exactly the same reason so like when we actually started when i started brigade the first school district we're in we went from zero to a hundred overnight we're gonna we're gonna all the values we have we're doing that tomorrow.

38:47And part of that was plates. We have reusable plates, reusable trays. Sounds amazing. Yeah. Okay. Well, you're going to have to pay someone to wash all those things. So paying someone to wash all those things means that you're have less money to pay someone to cook the food. Like it gets, you know, like something has to give. So it's all about a balance or to like, people are like, why don't you use reusable forks and knives? Like, have you ever been in a cafeteria Yeah. Kids like little kids in the eye. Well, and also little kids will throw them all away by accident. Adults like older kids will throw them away on purpose because they think it's funny.

39:21And you're going to pay someone literally to stand next to the trash can to make sure that doesn't happen. And we've seen that. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like it's funny because there's criticism of all these school lunch programs out there. And like, you know, we're in this mix now. And because of my background, maybe, you know, people give me respect. There's all these people out there who work so hard and they're so good at what they do and they're trying to do the right thing every day. And then people criticize them and have absolutely no clue the challenges that these folks face.

39:51No clue. Not even not even like a semblance of an idea. And it's so frustrating to me because it's really not that hard. Like your kids go to these schools. You can visit the school. You can call some up. You can write an email. Do some do five minutes of research online to understand how these programs work. But instead of understanding, people just criticize, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even think about throwing out the forks, but that is a huge problem. We did that. We, when we did plates in new London, we would literally see kids throwing stacks of plates away literally because they thought it was funny.

40:22Middle school, high school kids. I shouldn't laugh because I'm encouraging it. 10 plates, 15 plates. And then the little kids, like they're just trying to get through their day. Things are falling off. They're falling on the ground. They're falling. So again, is it impossible? I'm not saying these things are impossible. because, you know, I'm the kind of person that always comes out and says, like, you know, we need to think through how we're going to do this. And then my peers are like, well, we do it here. And I'm like, of course, like, there's places you can do this. You can do these things.

40:50You can figure it out. There's a lot of amazing things that can happen. But the assumption that every school district out there has the resources right now to just go out and make these wholesale changes, it's just, it's not reality, you know? Yeah, I think the answer, obviously, is just funding our schools more and like making programs like this possible to make those changes. And just to be clear, since we're on the subject, because it's an important thing as we're trying to inform people about the National School Lunch Program, an interesting aspect though of budgets is that the school food budget in a school district is actually separate from the general budget of the school district.

41:26So all the money that comes back for reimbursement for these meals goes right into that budget. and that money can only be used for that budget. Sometimes when school food programs are struggling, they might rely on the general school district budget to help them, but that can become problematic. So that's another thing. There's pros and cons, but these folks who run these school food programs are like on an island. They're like, they need to like maintain their own budget. They're not getting funding from anywhere else. It's just, they're running like a business. And that's the only department in a school district that has to do that.

42:03The only one. Everyone else, the money is funded through a general fund and this and that. So that's a real challenge. In fact, in some school districts, the school district will actually charge the food service program for utilities, electricity. I mean, it's crazy. It's like insane. Wow. Yeah. So how many institutions is Brigade working with right now? I think we're in the like a little above 4040 right now. So primarily school districts, again, from small to big. The biggest ones we work with right now are Fresno, unified school districts, Oakland Public Schools, Newark Public Schools, Buffalo Public Schools.

42:40So pretty big cities. And then we have working with a senior center here in Manhattan. And then we have a chef in Portland, Maine, who works in a place called Preble Street, which caters to homeless individuals. And then we've done a couple pilots in prison systems. So we haven't had like a real ongoing partnership there. So the idea has always been about being in institutions at large. But really, the majority of our work has been in school systems. It's really interesting. I feel like we've talked a lot about successes and struggles and all of these things. And I'm curious, like, if you could have a magic wand or a platform to make meaningful change, like, what would you want that would make Brigade, like, easier and more successful?

43:23I mean, to be honest, I think that more chefs being interested in this work would be my dream for Brigade or not Brigade. Yeah. So if you're a chef listening right now, do you have an elevator pitch besides this whole conversation? Yeah, that, you know, I think the narrative around doing this kind of work, being a chef in an institution is always just about it's rewarding. There's great benefits. And yeah, it is rewarding. It's really important work that we're doing. It is. There's no way around it. And it's needed work. It's crucial work. The benefits are great. We pay well. There's great, you know, a great schedule, all that.

44:02That's amazing. We've been beating that drum for years, and I think we can make that pretty clear. I think the thing that chefs need, ambitious chefs need, they want a job that's like, yes, like it's engaging. It's hard. It's like this is it. And that's the point I think we've had a hard time communicating. The idea of coming up with recipes that work within a very strict budget that can be created in X kitchen, but also this this other kitchen as well that has a different equipment set up and figuring out how that works and then deploying that into a school district that feeds 90 ,000 kids a day.

44:41It's cool. It's absolutely cool. And like, to be fair, since I started doing this work, I don't like when I when I'm like hearing about stories of chefs and restaurants and like, you know, I love restaurants. I eat out all the time. I think it's amazing. But, you know, I don't know. I'm not as enamored as I once was where like when I hear about success stories that don't even have chefs, just an institution that figured out how to like serve better food to, again, hundreds of thousands of people a day. That's crazy. Yeah. And that's intense and that's hard. And that to me is the missing piece of communication that we haven't been able to figure out how to get out there to more chefs.

45:21Because I think they just think of this as like, well, like it's rewarding work and that sounds great and it's a great schedule. But like I'm still in it. Like I'm still going for it. And it's like, yeah, you can still go for it and do this work. I think people think of it like they're giving up in some way. Like I've been working ambitiously in restaurants. And now I'm going to kind of I'm like retiring from that. Now it's like, no, no, no, no, that's not what you're doing. This is actually really hard and really engaging. And I think that's that's what I would tell chefs. If I had the opportunity to just continuously talk to chefs in person, that's what I would try to tell them, communicate to them.

45:57Yeah. I mean, I'm not a chef, but I'm sold. If you want to go from like 200 covers a night to 90 ,000 covers, this is the job for you. That's the job. Yes, that's it. That's it. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

46:36That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception.

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47:52As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. And you guys have like an inaugural summit coming up in July, right? Yes. So it's the Brigade Summit. And, you know, we're like in the midst of like really planning this thing. It's the first time we're doing it. It's the end of July in the Bronx at a Dream Charter School, which is a beautiful school that we work at.

48:35And the whole point of it is to bring groups of people together. Like I have groups of people that I interact with all the time, but they're never really in the same place. You know, now I'm usually at conferences where it's all institutional folks. And they're talking about certain subjects and certain things. and then I have a lot of peers, obviously, who are chefs in restaurants. They're usually in a certain place, and they're having certain conversations. A lot of these conversations serve both parties, but they usually don't end up in the same place, and as much as the conversations serve both parties, I think there's a lot of very differing opinions and perspectives, and I think I've put myself in a unique place where I hear a lot of these different things, and I'm just, like, really excited to have all those people in the same place, so So we're going to have our attendee list right now is like all over the board.

49:23I mean, you've got chefs from three Michelin star restaurants, school food directors, people who work in prison food, farmers, someone from Pepsi Cola's come, you know, like just all over the place. They're going to be in the same room and we're going to have conversations and topics like what does good food mean to you? Simple things. And it's just amazing to hear how different those opinions can be. And I think that's pretty powerful because I think you go through life living in a bit of a bubble thinking that good food means a certain thing. Or, you know, what should we prioritize when we're talking about good food?

49:59And you're going to have someone talk about seasonality, locality, all these things. Someone else not even mentioned those things. It's very fascinating. So the attendees will be along those lines. And then also the folks speaking. We're really in the midst of that now. but it's really trying to get as diverse of a group as possible that can just give their perspective. You know, it's not about we're going to have some big names there, which I'm excited about, but it's not really about big names. It's really more about having genuine conversation that hopefully people leave both inspired, but like thinking a little differently.

50:30You know, I know I think completely differently, like starting in this space. When I came into this work, I'm quoted saying this is which which is embarrassing. I think one of the first interviews I ever did for Brigade, I was still in Copenhagen, I said something along the lines of, I want to change the way people think about food. And I swear that my opinion on food has changed more than anyone I've talked to. That's for sure. It's completely changed the way I view food and the way it works and the way I think about it. And that's just because, you know, I've put myself in a different place and I've talked to a lot of amazing people who have different perspectives.

51:09I love that. And can I come to the conference? Is it open to the public? It is. Yeah. So it's open to the public. We're selling tickets. We'd love for you to come. We'd love for anyone else to come. We have a website, chefsbrigade.com. That's not the name of our company. Our company's name is Brigade. Brigade was not available, but you can go there and get tickets for it. I'll link to it in the show notes for this episode. And to close, I want to play a little rapid fire game with you. Yes, I'll try. So I'm going to make you pick some favorites. I'll try. Okay. Your favorite, like, classic American school lunch staple?

51:44Pizza. Classic square rectangular pizza. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. Your favorite ice cream flavor? I say mint chocolate chip. Green mint chocolate chip. Artificial green? Yes. Yeah. Your go-to food to bring to the picnic? I'm going to say, like, a good Italian sub. I don't remember the last time I was on a picnic, but if I went to a picnic, I think would be a good Italian sub. Yeah, like a six-foot Italian sub, you know. Everyone can have some. That's right. Your favorite Jersey City restaurant? Ooh. You can do a few. No, I was going to say, I haven't even, I think I've been to one. I'm not representing Jersey City right now.

52:26Don't you live in Jersey City? I do live in Jersey City. Do you eat in the city in New York? I eat in the city a lot, and that's a shame because there are a lot of very good restaurants in Jersey City, but I think, unfortunately, I eat out more often in New York City. Okay. Then your favorite weekend night out in New York restaurant? Yep. Estella. Far and away. That's my favorite restaurant anywhere. Favorite New York bakery? I would love to tell you what it is because I went there and I had an amazing cookie. It was probably the best cookie I've ever eaten in my life. But I was there a couple weekends ago and I felt as though they've become very, you know, as these trendy places get, the way they were treating people was very obnoxious and I will not promote them.

53:10Okay. I love that. I refuse to promote them now because it was very bothersome, but the cookie was delicious. Okay. Taking a hard line. Your go-to late night snack? So I eat usually once a day and I eat late. I usually eat a big meal at the end of the night. So for me, a snack is like my dinner. But in the true spirit of the dish, it's my favorite food. And also like a late night thing is aglio, olio, peperoncino, which is like a pasta dish, which is the kind of dish you would make late night because you have all the stuff around. And sometimes still to this day, you know, I've done it a couple of times where I'm with friends and it's like we've eaten dinner and it's like one in the morning and you make that.

53:51It's delicious. Second dinner. Yeah. Okay, finally, a food scene from a book or a movie, something made up that you wish you could eat in real life. I would have struggled with this question, but I watched The Big Night, which is an amazing movie. If people listening have never seen The Big Night, to me, it's the best food movie out there. And there's, you know, the final scene is basically the whole movie leads up to the one dinner scene. And it seems amazing. And I would love to have experienced that. And actually, what I also found out is that the Big Night takes place at the Jersey Shore, which is one of my favorite places on Earth.

54:28And I didn't know that the Big Night takes place there. So even better. I'd love to have been there. I didn't know that either. I thought it took place in California. And then they said something about the East Coast. And I was like, East Coast? I bet you this is Jersey. Sure enough. There we go. Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show. This was so fun. Thank you. My pleasure. Adrian Miller, welcome to This is Tace. How are you? I'm good. Good to be with you. Finally, I've admired your work for many years and you're here. So thank you for stopping by. Thanks, bro. Appreciate that. Yeah. Well, the book that you have just published, Cooking to the President's Taste, Asian Heritage Chefs in White House History.

55:06When I saw this title, I was amazed that there is a history here that I had no idea about. I've obviously, there's chefs who've had done state dinners from the Asian heritage, But you write colorfully and with so much reporting as a historian about these chefs who have not been given the time that they deserve. Why was it important to focus on chefs of Asian heritage? Well, I had previously written a book on the history of African-American presidential chefs. And it was while I was researching that book that I came across the memoir cookbook of Li Ping Kwan, who was the presidential yacht chef for Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge and Herbert Hoover.

55:49So I fell out of my chair when I found that book and read it. And I said, OK, this book was published in 1939, but it fell into obscurity. It needs to come back. A broader audience needs to know about this. And so when I got the book deal with the White House Historical Association, they encouraged me to find out about other people of Asian heritage who have cooked for presidents. They didn't want to just hear Kwan's story, which is fascinating in and of itself. And so that gave me the license to just start digging into all these archives and other things. And I've identified 37 chefs in this book, but I know I'm just scratching the surface.

56:25Incredible work. Before we get to more chefs and Lee Pinguan's story, let's talk about your own history with the White House. You worked in the administration in the 90s. And tell me about your experiences in the White House working with presidents. And what's the food like, Adrian? Yeah. So I worked on something called the President's Initiative for One America. It was an outgrowth of President Clinton's initiative on race. And here's the wild idea behind the initiative on race. Okay, you ready for this? If we just talked to one another and listened, we might realize that we have a lot more in common than what supposedly divides us.

56:59Wild, right? Nineties were a wild time. Wild times. Maybe we weren't communicating at that level that well. Yeah. So I was at the very end of President Clinton's second term. And so while I was there, I was on the policy side, so I didn't work in the kitchen. But I did get towards the end of my stint there. I got something called being special assistant to the president. So it's called a non-commissioned officer. So that gave me privileges to eat in the White House mess, which is this clubby private dining space in the West Wing. A lot of people don't know about it. It's really for senior administration officials, not necessarily the first family.

57:36So I got privileges there. And let me just tell you, the food was really good, especially the cheeseburger. Slammin'. Now, that was 25 years ago, so I don't know what it's like now. And that is run by Navy cooks. And there's another connection to Asian heritage because a lot of Asian cooks were in the Navy and they get assigned to the White House. Yeah, well, you write about cooks on yachts, on boats. They call them yachts, but they're large boats. What's the dining room like? Take us to the West Wing. I mean, the White House is small, so it's not a big space. It's not a big space. So it's really, if you've ever been to a private dining, like an old school private dining club.

58:11Now, I haven't been in a lot of those spaces, but that's what it's like. Like a lot of wood paneling, you know, old portraits. Yeah, it's just that kind of feel. You feel like you're in a private club dining room. That's amazing to have a cheeseburger in the White House. That's a great story. Yeah. Well, I want to talk about Li Ping Kuan, who you referenced. This book really sent you down, not just Li Ping Kuan's story, but the story of many of these chefs. Tell us a little bit about this important figure in history. Yeah. Yeah. So he was born in China and he was an accomplished culinarian before he even got to the United States.

58:49So as a young, young man, he trained under one of the famous chefs in China. So a lot of the people that entered the story go into U.S. military service because it was a pathway to U.S. citizenship. And so he saw opportunity. So he shows up as a very good cook. He's cooking on torpedo boats and other things, but then he starts working his way up through the ranks. Of all our military branches, the Navy takes cooking the most, you know, they're serious about it, especially these admirals. So there's actually an annual culinary competition in the Navy. Yeah, like similar to kind of like what you think of Top Chef and things like that.

59:24Have you written about this? I have not written about it. Oh, my goodness. But I want to, yeah. That would be a great story. Right? Being on the scene there. Yeah. So he makes his way up and eventually he gets assigned to the USS Mayflower, which was the presidential yacht roughly from the late 1800s until the mid-1980s. 1920s. Tell us about the type of food that Li Ping Kuan is cooking. I mean, of course, it's not Chinese food, I would imagine. I'm imagining it's very different, it's European inspired, but what's on the menu typically for these meals? So early in their careers, it looks like a lot of these chefs were just making Western slash American food.

1:00:02And one of the points of evidence is if you look at the Navy cookbook from 1902, it's like, you know, bean soup, all kinds of stews and things like that. But the interesting thing is by the time you get to the 1920s, when the official Navy cookbook comes out, there are Asian inspired dishes there. So chop suey, which is, you know, bits of meat and vegetables. You're seeing curries and things like that. So they're definitely making those type of dishes by the time you get to the 1920s. And that just shows the influence of these cooks and, you know, fairly short period of time. That's amazing to know that presidents were, at that era, were interested in Chinese cuisine.

1:00:40Yeah, there was more adventuresome palate than you might expect. Yeah. So Grace Coolidge loved Shop Siwi and had Juan teach her how to make it. No way. Yeah, yeah. Gave her a private lesson, so. Was Calvin Coolidge a foodie himself? That's hard to say. Cool Cal, right? Yeah. Nickname was. Yeah. So you hear more about Grace Coolidge liking stuff, but certainly Cal Coolidge loves some of this stuff. But you just hear so many stories about him being stingy and all this kind of stuff. So that kind of overshadows stories about his palate. Silent cow. Silent cow. Sorry, not cool cow. I've made that mistake with another presidential food historian I had on the show.

1:01:16Don't worry about it. I make that mistake every time. Cool cow, that sounds good. Before, Lee Pinh Kwan is a chef named Aloy, and you focus on this story. From 1905 in September, there's a banquet that Aloy cooks that you find significant. Yeah. So at that time, Theodore Roosevelt is president, and he's trying to broker a peace between Russia and Japan, what was known as the Russo-Japanese War. And so he brought delegations from Japan and Russia to Portsmouth, New Hampshire. They were originally going to do it in Newport, Rhode Island, but they felt that the Japanese delegation would experience more racism because of the white tourists there.

1:01:54So they wanted someplace more secluded. So they go to Portsmouth, New Hampshire. They have this conference starting early September, goes for a couple of weeks. So what Roosevelt did is he would have the delegations on separate yachts and then they would come to the Mayflower, his yacht, to actually have the negotiations. So there's this key luncheon, right? Just when tensions are high and it looked like the negotiations were going to just fall apart. And so Roosevelt said, okay, this is a delegate situation. I got a lot of egos. How am I going to work this meal? So typically when you have a meal, it's a sit down thing and everybody is jockeying for proximity to the president because where you're seated kind of gives an indication of your status.

1:02:36So the brilliance of Roosevelt is he asked Chef Loy, who was the chief cook on the Mayflower. He's like, OK, we're just going to have a standing luncheon. So there's not going to be any seating. Wow. Now, here's the thing. They weren't foodies back then. And so you don't get a lot of description of the meal itself. Only the reactions that people like the food. I was like, oh man, just give me a morsel. Give me a little bit. But I thought that was really interesting. It's cool. And you print the menu in the book. And aloe, is aloe cooking any Asian cuisine? Or is it mostly playing the American hits for these Japanese and Russian delegates?

1:03:13Yeah, from what I can tell, it's pretty much American food. Yeah. So one of the menus that I have from earlier is July of that year. It was like a clam chowder was the main thing and some other assorted things. So, yeah, it's pretty much American food. How could you imagine? I know you don't have documents to back this up, but I'm just going to ask you straight up. Like, how can you imagine Aloy is treated at this period as somebody of Asian heritage cooking for Japanese delegation, Asian, but then Russian and American? It's got to be an interesting dynamic there. I think so. I think there's a level of appreciation, right?

1:03:48But then there's this lens of servitude. Yeah. So his humanity was probably only partly recognized. And I'm just drawing an inference from my work looking at African-Americans who had served in similar positions. Get a lot of love, but at the same places like, yeah, you're second status. Yeah, you're still the cook. Yeah, so it's like this mixed reception. Well, moving ahead in time, there's the chef Ariel de Guzman, who you profile, who cooked for George H.W. Bush at Camp David and beyond. I like this section a lot. It tells the story of the Bush's tastes in food, but also the chef who clearly had some nice skills.

1:04:28Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, Filipino again enters the Navy as a way pathway to U.S. citizenship. And he excels. And at first he was assigned to the White House mess. But then he decides, you know what? I have a chance to work for vice president. Then George Herbert Walker Bush, he does that. But then Bush goes to the White House, asks de Guzman to help him out with that. And then the really interesting thing is that de Guzman then cooks for him post-presidency. Oh, wow. So when they go to Kenny Buckport or they're in Texas, he's usually there cooking for them and does it for a long time. And he actually comes out with a book in 2000.

1:05:10It's called The Bush Family Cookbook. So that's the second book from an Asian Heritage presidential chef that we have. Kwan's book and then we have his book. Amazing. Do you have a sense of the types of foods that were prepared at that period? So he was doing classic stuff you would expect from the Bush family, especially with main bag. So he's doing lobster dinners. But he would also mix up and do Filipino dishes. So we have adobo, kind of the pork adobo, which is a classic Filipino dish. And then another recipe that I love is sometimes a first family will go to a restaurant that's you know, whatever cuisine and come back and say, hey, we had this thing.

1:05:49Can you make that for us? And so if you've ever been to some of these Brazilian steakhouses, a lot of them are known for the puff cheese rolls. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So he replicated that. They went to a famous place in Houston, came back to the White House, said, we want to have this. And so he figured out how to make that. That's a really good story. Those are great, by the way. Yeah. I know, right? Addictive. Yeah. They're like gluten free. They're like really good. I love that. That's a good, good, good palate there. You move on to other chefs, and I think one that is a name that I found familiar, Christetta Comerford was the longest-serving White House chef and retired only in 2024.

1:06:28Tell us a little bit about the history here with multiple administrations. Yeah. So just a slight amendment. So there is one chef that served longer than her, this guy Henry Haller. He served 20 years, and she was 19 years and a few months. Okay. We're being technical. That's why you're a historian. I know. I know. I'm not trying to shame you. I just wanted to put that in place. Let the records be corrected. Yeah. So she's from the Philippines, encouraged to cook by her father. But she came up through the hotel ranks. So she wasn't in the military. So she was cooking for local hotels. And then in the White House, they have this thing called service by agreement cooks.

1:07:04So basically, the White House kitchen is very small. I mean, like 200 square feet or something like that. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really small. Wow. If you ever go on a White House tour and see the kitchen, you will look there and say, But my kitchen is bigger than that. Do they do the state dinners out of that kitchen? They do. So what they do for the state dinners, because of the massive size, that often they have to set up cooking stations outside and in hallways and stuff to accommodate that. Yeah, yeah. So she got started getting hired in the 90s during the Clinton administration to help out.

1:07:36And she excelled. And so finally, the chef at that time, Walter Scheib, decides to hire her as an assistant chef. So she comes on second term of Clinton. And then by the time you get to the second term of George W. Bush, that's when she gets tapped to the executive chef position. Wow. Yeah. I mean, to cook through administrations, do you find that from your research, is it just something that they just keep the staff because they want they want continuity? Is that the main reason or is it just is it just a tradition? I think it's more it's I think a lot of stuff's going on. So actually, over the course of presidential history, when there's a change of administration, the person who should be the most nervous in the White House kitchen is actually the executive chef.

1:08:21Oh, interesting. That's the person who usually gets changed out because for a lot of presidents, they want somebody familiar. And quite a few presidents either brought their enslaved cook to the White House or just somebody who was their private cook for years. And so, you know, that familiarity was so they would tap that. But when we get to the more modern presidency, that's when you start seeing considerations of, you know, somebody who's got proficiency in culinary and a great reputation and all that kind of stuff. So then you start seeing, you know, these multi-administration cooks. So, yeah, there's a sense of, hey, this person knows how to do this.

1:08:56We'll keep it going. It's really only it's unusual for a president to now change chefs unless they're just really not happy with what that chef is doing. And that's what happened with Walter Scheib and George W. Bush. So, you know, otherwise probably would have gone on for a long time. And, you know, Comerford, she's with Clinton as an assistant chef, then George W. Bush, Obama, Trump, and then also Biden during her run. You know, very different tastes there. Very much. And different state dinners, different style of cooking. I mean, this job, how many hours do you think she's working during? I asked her that.

1:09:37So, you know, for a typical day, it's probably like eight to 10 hours. And she, in the book, she shared what it was like to have that schedule and be a working mother. Yeah. Because she had a daughter growing up at that time. But she would come in and usually somebody else was starting the breakfast shift. And so she would come in and get lunch ready and work for dinner. But now when you have the state dinners, you know, you're just there for 12, 14 hours. Those are long days. Yeah, yeah. Those are long days. But is there a balance in that job? Are they traveling with the president or are they based only in the White House?

1:10:09They're usually based in the White House unless the president wants that person to come with him. So usually when they travel, there's kind of a transfer. You have other chefs that may go with the president. Yeah. It just depends because there's a small culinary team on Air Force One and they're not really cooking. They're just reheating food that was cooked at Andrews Air Force Base. or picking up Mickey D's just being honest here I'm just looking at some photos that I've seen recently or a taco salad, a hard shell taco salad a hard shell taco salad has been served on that plane as well yeah and then sometimes somebody from the White House mess that run by the U.S.

1:10:45Navy may travel and cook for the president so it kind of depends what the president wants at that time from both of your books and just your general research of this dynamic what have you learned about security in terms of obviously there is a security protocol that they're willing to share some. There's probably some things that you don't know. But clearly this is like a pretty important thing. It is. So one question I often get asked is, does the president have a taster? I was trying to be a little more eloquent with that, but yes, it's true. So the answer is yes. And the taster is usually the president's most vocal critic.

1:11:19I'm just kidding. For a second, I was like, that's a good joke. So the chef is the taster. So the chef tastes everything before it's sent out to the president. So what's interesting, though, is when let's just say a president wants to go to a restaurant. The most secure thing that can happen is for someone in the Secret Service or staff just to go to the restaurant and order the food because they don't know the president's going to get it. Now, if the president wants to dine in, they will have the Secret Service go secure the kitchen and then run the Social Security numbers of everybody and see who's supposed to be there, who's not supposed to be there.

1:11:50And then, and I've never had this verified, but I saw this reported, there is a trained chef on the Secret Service who then watches the person cook the meal. Eyes on the chef. And this person's armed. So, you know, if you watch cooking elimination shows, right, I think that's a real elimination challenge. It's quite the stressful quickfire moment that an armed chef is watching another chef. Yeah, packing heat, watching you. Have you ever write fiction? Do you ever dabble? No. That's the book. oh that would be that chef the armed chef that would be right that would be so great that follows the president thanks for planting a seed I mean just go there it seems like the perfect setup for a great crime novel there's this new thing on Netflix I haven't watched it yet but I think it has some of those elements yeah have you heard about this?

1:12:40know what's the show? The Residence I think it's about I've rejected it I think it's about murder in the White House okay those are always good those are always popular but thank you for I'm clarifying that because I never actually knew how it worked, but this is good to know that there's obviously a protocol there. Yeah. And then there's a strict protocol with the food supply chain. Yeah. Right. So they have providers who are sworn to secrecy. In fact, if a provider somehow gets out that that person provides food to the White House, usually lose that contract. Lose that contract. Yeah. So. This includes like Diet Cokes and five almonds and all that stuff.

1:13:15But believe it or not, there was a time when the White House steward would just go to the local markets and shop and people knew who that person was. And then there was a time for a long time people would send food to the White House and the White House would accept the food. I mean, who wants to waste a great pie? I'm sure there were some tasty dishes there. Yes. The most wild thing is someone sent a possum to Theodore Roosevelt. Like a live, wait. Yeah, live possum to be killed and then cooked. Oh, it's like a delicacy. Like here's a possum from my farm in West Virginia. Hey, man. So what happened?

1:13:55Did they make a pie out of it? They made the possum, but the president didn't eat it. But reportedly, the African-American staff was thrilled to get this and they ate it. Because back in the day, roasted possum and roasted sweet potatoes was the dish. That was like, that was the Epicurean delight. How can you imagine the flavors of this dish? I love this. So I want to try it. Yeah. I've never had it. But from all, everything I've heard, roasted possum is like roast pork. Yeah. But greasier. That's what I always hear. Do you think there's a restaurant in America that does it? I don't think so. If there is, I would definitely try to go.

1:14:35Yeah, definitely. For research at least. Well, moving on to the book, it's terrific. that you aren't only including chefs of Asian heritage who served on the staff, but state dinners. And I was delighted that Edward Lee's name came up and you wrote about the state dinner he gave for the South Korean president. And Edward's a friend of the show and spoken about this on the show. What did you find out about that dinner at the White House? Yeah, so I was grateful that he was willing to give us an insider's account of that dinner. So it was interesting. He talked about just kind of the prep and how he consulted with First Lady Jill Biden to decide how they were going to what the menu was going to be.

1:15:18And that but one thing that I really picked up on is he said that he talked with Chef Christetta Comerford about the dishware because they have to decide what dishware they're going to use for the dinner. And so she was explaining, oh, yeah, this was used at this particular state dinner or this was used here. and so he that's when the real moment of history kind of sunk in for him yeah and then you know the menu itself the way he just kind of blends uh south korea with his uh southern experience and brooklyn and everything so you know butter bean grits yeah with a short braced short rib the maryland crab cakes uh with you know korean influences highlights i thought it was cool very cool dinner i remember following it that an evening was happening in the guest list it was It's very cool they get to do that.

1:16:03Yeah. Lastly, you profile a chef who actually works in the White House, Tommy Krupadit. And he reveals the current situation with the current administration. Talk about what you learned from Tommy. Yeah. So he was another interesting guy because son of Thai immigrants. So he's kind of the hustle. You know, he got interested in culinary in high school, went to a local culinary school at a community college and then just kind of worked his way up. And then somehow he was working on a millennial. It was like a millennial celebration around 2000. And he met someone who was currently working in the White House.

1:16:42And he was like, oh, that's interesting. And so just pure hustle. He made it to a point where he got to the White House. And he had an eyewitness view of Christetta Comerford becoming the White House chef because he was already on staff at that time as assistant chef. And so he credits her mentorship with where he is today. And so it was really interesting just to see, hear his story. And that's a story nobody knows, right? Because he's never been profiled in anything. And now he's the White House chef. So, you know, word on the street is he's very good at making, you know, a nice steak with a tomato sauce that people might call ketchup.

1:17:18That's the word on the street. That's the word on the street. I can't verify this. Adrian, that's great. I mean, food is such a central point of this administration. you know, Health and Human Services Secretary, always jumping in the news about food. And of course, we have a very polarizing president. So what have you what have you observed about food in the current White House from your own research and just your interest in this topic? So that's the frustrating thing. So in the past, there were people were more open about the food in the White House and what the president is eating. Nowadays, we get we don't get as many details.

1:17:53So I don't have a good answer. Yeah. On that, right. Figured. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People talked a lot more 50, 60 years ago. Yeah. I think, well, there's probably less polarization. So food couldn't be used as a political football of some sort. But, you know, the savvy presidents understood if I how they could use food to make themselves more relatable. And by doing that and increasing their popularity, then it garners support for their political objectives. 100 percent. Yeah. Because if you're a popular president, then, you know, you're going to get stuff done. And I think the savviest presidents understood that.

1:18:29And I think Michelle Obama, you have to credit with having food at the center and, of course, creating a garden and making that important. And what's your take on the Obama administration and food? Oh, yeah, very important, especially on the policy side, the Let's Move initiative. Now, the White House has had a garden for a long time. In fact, John Adams had a garden and there was a kitchen garden. But, you know, they really ramped it up. And I think a lot of people learned from that experience. In fact, during that, she came out with the American Grown Cookbook. And so one of the recipes was Christetta Comerford's macaroni and cheese, but it's a cauliflower and cheese instead of the macaroni pasta.

1:19:07So we have that recipe in the book. And we actually have Chef Comerford talking about her experience connecting to the garden and also how she taught her own daughter about food through that time. That's really cool. Yeah. This book is very special and so many great stories. It's not just a cookbook. It has lots of history in it. And I think it's a great gift for the presidential fan in your life, which there are a lot of people. There are. It's very great. Adrienne, is there any future project that you're working on? You have a very interesting career in food writing and just in history. What are you thinking about right now?

1:19:39So one book that I would love to do is a history of black street food vendors. Yeah. And so I would show how they repped West Africa in the clothes that they wore, the intonation of their voice as they did what they were called street calls or street songs. The foods they introduced from West Africa, the ones they embraced from other cultures. But here's the really cool thing. Between 1880 to 1930, people would listen to black folks rhyming and singing on street corners to get people's attention. And they wrote it down to sheet music. And I have a hundred of those from various cities. So I actually had an agent shop that project around.

1:20:14No one's really interested in it. There was one publisher interested, but it wasn't a good fit. But so I'm trying to figure out, maybe let go of the idea that it has to be a book. Maybe it can be a podcast or something else. But that's the idea I want to get out. That's a wonderful idea. I have a lot of questions. What is the cuisine that are being sold to these street vendors? What kind of foods? Oh, so it depends on the city. But, you know, like, let's take, for instance, New Orleans. There's something called kala, which is a rice fritter they were serving. And then pralines. So a lot of candies.

1:20:44Popcorn was big. Peanuts were big. In Brooklyn in the 1700s, there were enslaved black women selling hot corn and baked pears. Oh, wow. On Fulton Street. Right on Fulton Street. Modern-A Fulton Street. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's how deep the tradition goes. Hot tamales is another very popular food that you see in a lot of places. So, yeah, peanuts, all kinds of stuff. It's a wonderful thought about writing a book about that. Yeah. Publishers, wake up. I know, right? Sign up for this book. We work at it. There's many publishers listening to this podcast. And honestly, Adrian, this has been such a pleasure talking to you and hearing about these great stories.

1:21:21Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Oh, thank you. Appreciate you.

1:21:28This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.