610: Big Flavors, Banned Words, and 20 Years at Condé Nast with Bon Appétit’s Chris Morocco

27:08And if you can convince them, if you can hold their hand, you can help them execute it for themselves so they see the benefit of what you're talking about, honestly, you'll, you will have a convert for life. I feel the same way. I feel like you have to always preach basics with these things because we take for granted that the audience sometimes, you know, doesn't know about like anything. Yeah, new people are coming in all the time. New people to younger people who have never hosted Thanksgiving. Who had their family cook it or they went to restaurants and this is the first time they go to B.A.

27:39and they're like, how do I, what, what, turkey, what? Right, and what do you have to give them? What do you have for them as a resource? Yeah. Give me like, this is a tough one, but I think you can. Give me like the truly most annoying recipe, the most tedious, the most, I would say, protracted recipe development process that comes to mind. for me it's it's the dishes i did that were for iconic known foods yeah a great example ba's best chocolate chip cookie like what a phenomenal responsibility to have to develop a recipe for something so iconic so first step you have to do your due diligence you need to go out and you need to figure out what are the top performing other five or six recipes and you need to cook every single one and see what's really worthwhile about each one.

28:32If anything, you know, surely like, you know, there will be positive attributes, but you have to see that for yourself. Step two, formulate your own idea about what this thing is. Start baking, see what people think, get feedback from a whole host of sources, you know, keep iterating and iterating. Certain things like should flaky sea salt be on BA's best chocolate chip cookie can turn into a conversation that lasts for weeks amongst the staff. Because that little flourish of Malden or Jacobson salt, that is not necessarily a back pocket reflex for a lot of cooks, despite what you might think from hanging out in New York City for many, many years.

29:14For the record, is that in the recipe? It is not in the recipe. Okay, so it didn't even make it. I did hand-chopped chocolate. Yes. I did two yolks and one whole egg. just for, again, like I'm more of like a savory, you know, somebody craves a lot of savory even in my suite. Yeah. So I want an intentional amount of salt in the cookie, right? But just a flourish of sea salt, I just think for some person out there, it's going to be an excuse not to make it. Yeah, and when you're talking about a wide audience and it can't just be the coastal trends in the hip bakeries, you got to recognize that audience.

29:49A hundred percent. What about just like working through process to get something like right that was feeling daunting. It was like - For that or for something else? Just something else that like - Oh. Because I'm hearing that the chocolate chip cookie part is just getting the best one, which is a huge burden. But what about just like a technical, something that just wouldn't work? Oh. Too many. Oh, man. I see your eyes. So many. Well, no, because a lot of recipes start out as what if. Yeah. You know, what if? what if there could be like, what's this, what's this breakfast cookie trend? You know, oh, let's do a morning glory breakfast cookie and let's not put any refined sugar in it.

30:33Well, I mean, are you, are you freaking kidding me? There's a reason that there's sugar in every single cookie recipe you've ever cooked. You know, we figured it out. I figured it out a lot, you know, a bunch of maple syrup, but you know, I had to like basically write an article explaining, You know, like I literally did this thing 13 times. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think we got to a pretty good place. But sometimes you are trying to make something happen on a technical level that simply doesn't want to obey. Yeah, it's a great example. And I've been seeing that trend everywhere, too. Yeah.

31:05It's a good one to tackle. This is one that I did for Healthy-ish, you know, our sort of former brand, you know, kind of focused on, you know, kind of like whatever, feel good cooking. and, you know, so we're always asking those questions. Liza Barbanel, former editor. Oh, yeah, gosh, of course. Co-host of the show. Why am I telling you this? Shout it out, yeah. Yeah, I work with Eliza on so many healthy-ish, you know, bits of content and recipes. And, you know, so yeah, she gets it. You know, she was there for a lot of that. Wasn't it great working with Eliza? Oh, she's, honestly, she's like one of those people who I'm like, one day you're literally gonna fire me because you're gonna be like, Chris, like, sorry, we just don't need you anymore.

31:43because like she's just like so phenomenally competent. Yeah. And, you know, she was like so junior and yet like had such a gifted editorial voice. Yeah. And it was there from day one. Yeah, absolutely. I love collaborating with Liza on Features and of course on the podcast. Yeah. Such an editorial talent. Yeah. I fully agree. 100%. We have to take a little aside, a side break and talk about coffee. It's a micro theme on the show. We definitely talk about it. We've had plenty of coffee folks on And I just love seeing in your highlights. And I know from talking to people in the industry because they've been up to the test kitchen from coffee companies.

32:19Yeah. Because they love talking to you about coffee. What are you drinking these days? And what's the fascination in coffee for you? Oh, God. I just coffee makes me so happy. It's like a warm hug for your palate. It's the thing that like, you know, literally pries me out of bed in the morning. I go to sleep thinking about it. Not because I want to drink phenomenal quantities of it. But just the way that that perfect cup or two, you know, through my day hits, it fills a mug shaped hole in my heart. That is how it feels for me to drink it. Thinking about the nuances of all of the savory complexities of coffee.

32:59I once made the mistake of just like sharing tasting notes with a friend in front of my wife. And she's still giving me a hard time for talking about the quote unquote angles, you know, of what I was drinking. You know when like coffee is like very rounded and very like, you know, plush and soft. And you know when it's like much more focused and sharp. Same terminology applies to wine. It's just these are the conversations I could spend all day having. I mean like you look at like Central American coffees versus East African or West African coffees. Oh, sure. And that roundness versus that sharpness naturally processed, of course.

33:33You could talk about that, which puts you into a whole other ballgame. But I love thinking about shapes in coffee because I agree that certain terroirs and regions express in different ways. For a long time, I was super into natural process coffees. I've backed off that slightly. Me too. But I think that, you know, the ability to recognize really distinct focused fruit flavors in coffee, like sometimes those show up very clearly. and natural processed coffees, you know, like you will taste like peach that you're experiencing as though like a thousand volts of electricity are just coursing through it, you know.

34:08Like coffee people usually tend to prefer, I mean like coffee industry people, I should say, tend to prefer clean, sweet, like washed coffees. Yeah, exactly. Where subtlety kind of reigns. But, you know, Philly, like once again, I'm spoiled. You know, I'm so spoiled. like poem roasters, Blind Tiger coffee roasters. This guy Charlie does such a great job roasting for my local cafe, Rally, which I love. You know, Rival Brothers, I get my coffee from Ox. These days I'm craving stuff that's a little bit darker. I wouldn't call it dark, dark roast. Yeah. But just something a little mature, a little bit more kind of chocolate, toasted nut.

34:52Yeah. Yeah. I prefer, I've been preferring Washed recently. I mean, I think I burned out on naturally processed coffees during the pandemic when I just bought everyone I could find. Yeah. But I agree. Like, I mean, it's all about the roasting, right? It's all about the roasting. And if you get the roaster who does it responsibly, it does electrify your palate. It does. And I think that some of those like natural processed coffees are still so interesting to taste. Yeah. Because it's like, you know, like, again, like wine is the best analogy for me. it's like you will taste flavors that feel almost outside the spectrum of like the known universe you know yeah for your palate what's your setup at home i am the only person who drinks coffee at home so i do a v60 pour over for myself every morning yeah no yeah i mean of course that's what you gotta do that's it v60 pour over get the gram scale get your extraction oh yeah like we're weighing sorry yeah i thought that was like just assumed no we're weighing yeah you know it's like i've been playing around with extraction though i feel like i've been doing the ratio yeah i have been i've been i've been putting more coffee i've been i've been i've been increasing my my dosage recently and just seeing do you take milk or sugar or do you drink black i always drink it black do you okay yeah i mean i i take milk and i'm proud fair fair i mean listen fair again but that that additional kind of plushness and roundness milk is kind of like it's smoothing everything out for me i i like milk as a as an after if i'm doing a second cup i think from morning from like the first thing to hit my palate i'm definitely always just tasting it you know out of um always just as the way god intended in many ways um i i see a incredible value in adding dairy or non-dairy to coffee at different periods in the day and i've been milking tea recently oh that's been a thing which i know is like not cool i put on gram and i got some comments but have you had your tea era yet you do you do you yeah i like i i think teas are fascinating yeah i think as like listen as as i get a little bit older you know i can't drink just like cup after cup of coffee it's just not it's just a lot for your system to take more than a couple cups a day but tea is just endlessly fascinating to me chris no cookbook i i feel like oh i know i know we got to talk about you you're gonna bring this up i know and like it's interesting because you mentioned your colleagues and yeah i feel like nearly all of them have cookbook deals or are doing cookbooks or have done cookbooks and like obviously you've had the opportunity um to write a cookbook but you haven't yet and are you waiting for the moment are you just not interested because you have your of your day job yeah i you know it's not that i'm not interested.

37:40I'm just actually really busy. And I know how much work goes into writing a cookbook. And perhaps seeing so many friends and colleagues do them, I know a little too much about how much goes into it. That will do it to you. Yeah. And I've got still a relatively young family at home. I enjoy my nights and weekends to be with them. I also support my wife and her career. And if I'm tied up on certain weekends, you know, working through recipes for a cookbook, you know, she's got to work that weekend. Like, what, you know, what do we even do at that point? I mean, listen, like, these are all details that I could figure out.

38:17But I also just think there's something usually very solitary about pursuing a cookbook just in terms of executing those recipes on your own, on your own time. I'm so used to, and frankly, just so love being surrounded by phenomenal cooks. I don't know what I would do without them. I really don't know what you would do. I mean, I, like, I know, but I just, it's better when they're there. You know, no, but you're not saying. I mean, I feel like there's gotta be a concept broadly that you would, given, of course, I recognize the family life and balance, and that's great, and to hear, and it's important.

38:56Let's just take that out of the equation. Okay. No, like, you have the time. I mean, there's gotta be an idea or an instinct or a direction to go in, Because you know publishing so well as well. The thing that endlessly fascinates me is dinner. Yeah. I mean, whatever. That's like probably the most glaringly obvious thing. Mirasota scooped me with her most recent cookbook, you know, which I absolutely love. But it's dinner. I want to know what you want to cook when you go home from work tonight. I want to know and I want to, you know, be part of that conversation, you know, because this is something that I'm still figuring out for me.

39:35Right. Like having kids, you know, whose palates are highly idiosyncratic, you know, having a home that's like mostly gluten free and mostly red meat free. I mean, this is a puzzle I am solving every single night. Yeah. I feel like you'd have a new take on dinner maybe when that time comes because of your experience and just dinner through the eras. It's something I would love to do. I mean, I love employing like ingredients with huge flavors. I like, you know, borrowing from different influences, using things in, you know, kind of unconventional ways. I think people, once they understand the power of, you know, the ingredients they can have at their disposal, you know, I think like there are so many amazing shortcuts to eating really well, but doing it in a smarter way.

40:24We're having this event on July 23rd. I want to plug it here. Oh, it's going to be awesome. You're going to be out of town, but you're going to, but Jesse and Chopo will be on stage with us at the Bell House. incredible lineup. Tell us about the BA section of the program. I'm so thrilled that you're joining, that BA is joining this event. I think it's going to be such a fun evening. Yeah. Like as a bunch of your listeners will know, Shilpa and Jesse started Bait Club earlier. Well, I guess like late 2024. And Shilpa came to us with this idea a couple of years ago, just basically how do you engage the bakers out there?

41:02How do we find the bakers amongst our audience members and really speak to them and find ways to, you know, start conversations with them. And Bait Club has been phenomenal because, you know, we see time and time again, you know, being able to peg certain recipes to, you know, like a broader theme, whether it's feel-good food plan, you know, whether it's fourth trimester, whether it's Bait Club, you know, the audience loves, you know, kind of like having some sense of like what they're going to get every month. So Shilpa and Jesse have done such a great job with their recipe lineups, with taking listener questions and creating an audio experience for Bait Club.

41:39And recently we just had our first live event for Bait Club at One World Trade. Cool. They did a hands-on afternoon tea with scone making. And yeah, they made it. You're getting the readers in the building. Oh, no, I know, which we hadn't done for a while. You know, just something so small and intimate, It was like 15 ticketed attendees, and we had such a great time. It's great. I can't wait to have them join the stage. The theme is Stay Cool. We're going to talk about maybe some summer baking on the stage. I won't be there. It'll be those guys doing a live episode of Bake Club. Yeah, Shilpa was already noodling on kind of what that theme might mean to that.

42:21It's going to be a blast. It's July 23rd. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story. The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.

43:04The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables and little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner.

43:37Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I had pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.

44:15It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. I wanted to close and ask you, Chris, like, where do you want to be in five years with your career? I feel like you're so involved in all BA cooking elements and it's an exciting time in media right now.

45:02Really exciting time. Where do you want to be? Yeah, I mean, honestly, like part of why I haven't done a cookbook yet is I've really been focused on helping shape the next generation of food editors, both within BA and outside the brand too. And, you know, just helping people along in their journeys. I certainly hope in the next five years I will have gotten that first cookbook done. I frankly hope to be where I am, you know, and just sort of, you know, helping evolve what BA is and how it exists. as a print product, as a digital product, as audio experience, video experience. I truly love being there.

45:44But I also fantasize about taking, getting one of those like one euro houses in Italy and decamping for a few years. I feel you on that. What about like a restaurant? Would you consider opening a restaurant? I think I probably know a little bit too much in the bad sense to open a restaurant, but I feel like there's nonetheless like so many people are in that position and they go ahead and they do it anyway. My wife and I joke that like it would be fun to have like, you know, some kind of creative space that's like part cafe, part home store, maybe a place where I could do, you know, kind of like cooking classes, you know, kind of community building.

46:29Something like that could be really cool. And I think sometimes it's just like you find the right space, you know, and that sort of dictates like what, you know, kind of what the program is. Yeah. Have you been to Binding Agents yet? The cookbook store in Philly? Yes. Isn't that great? It's so close to my house. Oh, cool. And it's one of those things in Philly, like I just walked by one day. I was like, what is this? I know, right. It is such a beautiful jewel box of a space with the loveliest people. It really is. And yeah, it's just one of about like 50 ,000 things that I just think is so phenomenal that's going on in Philly right now.

47:04I love that you moved there. I had no idea until you watched in the studio. It's such a great city. Binding Agents, great story. I had to plug them. Chris, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? I am ready. The best fruit? A peach. Where was it when you had it, the best one? Where were you? Oh, I mean standing over the sink every time, you know, but like a peach in season. I was like pears like hoved into view in my mind. But like now it's a peach. Sorry, pear. The worst vegetable.

47:36Parsnip. Have you developed a recipe that works with parsnip? Absolutely not. Because it can't be done. It's banned. I just I honestly get a like furious thinking about the flavor of a parsnip. Clawing like mutant carrot with like nothing to write. With nothing else to add. can't eat it raw let me ask you are there we have banned words like we just don't won't run them I'm sure you have banned words too are there banned ingredients in the BA test kitchen there's no no there's no real banned ingredients okay okay but people know like they'll do something involving a banana and like kind of like nervously look over at me because they know like it's kind of like one of my demon ingredients I mean banana is challenging I was talking to Hannah O 'Alea recently on an episode and we were talking about pairing lobster bananas and brussel sprouts at wd-50 i was like my guy that sounds intense gosh but if anybody could do it yeah you know if anybody could do it it was likely i'm sure incredibly delicious yeah like a banana kimchi actually oh wow i know wild right see like things like peanut and banana i need savory yeah if you go sweet with either you lose me yeah god help me with chocolate with either.

48:50Yeah. But I mean, honestly, you go savory, strong flavors, right? Because peanut, banana, these are such huge flavors, but you need things that match them. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I could go in a time machine and have that dish. What's your typical breakfast? It is coffee and buttered toast with jam, preferably from London Borough of Jam, my favorite jam company. That's the guy. I don't know that brand. It's so good. It's a little bit expensive, but a little goes a long way. And they do, I'm a little bit of a skeptic about kind of culinary jams, you know, like combining savory flavors in your jam. However, they do things like apricot with muscovado sugar.

49:28Sounds cool. Rhubarb with cardamom. And it's always a light hand. That's nice when the spice is not overpowering. It's super light. And it's like way too much. Do you bake bread? Do you have a bread practice? I don't have a bread practice. I don't bake enough at home. I find it, it's like a headspace thing. the kids get involved flour starts flying everywhere and before you know it things like go sideways and you haven't even like made dinner yet you know it takes up a lot yeah I would love to build out more of like a baking kind of hobby I'm just not there yet not there yet I get it I'm the same way I've been thinking about getting into a bread practice just but it's I did it in the pandemic and it was fulfilling along with everybody else you know had my sourdough did my thing and I was kind of like, yeah, this is okay.

50:18But I am also surrounded by incredible bread all the time. I know. I'm really lucky. It's not something I have to do myself. Yeah. What about Mighty Bread? Do you go there? Oh, I get bread from Mighty Bread all the time. I also go to High Street, which started in Philly. I get their bread from the farmer's market, which is just phenomenal. I mean, it's just lousy with great examples. Also, like Majdal Bakery just opened up a brick and mortar just down the street from me. their bread is just like it's seven dollars and improbably delicious just like so many other philadelphia institutions that are just quietly overperforming i just i can't get enough of it it's it's amazing and mighty bread hands down best cherry pie i've ever had in my life oh it was gotta check that out it was like late season that it was like it was really like late season cherry pie it was love so great on that note the best dessert it's it's it's chocolate cake yeah i i I tried to come up with something like more clever or whatever.

51:17It's chocolate cake. Don't reinvent the wheel. I was so delighted to see like chocolate cake kind of come back onto dessert menus recently, like Claude, like their sixth layer, you know, sort of like stunner. That is one that I've loved. But I love making chocolate cake. I've developed chocolate cake recipes. I mean, it's just something that I just adore. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Gosh, I could go so many different directions. I think it's prune. Yeah. I never went there. Wow. What was I doing, Matt? Where was I? Not even brunch? No. You didn't even line? Like, Gabrielle, like, such just like a titan.

51:57And I just, I blew it. I utterly blew it. I never got there. I don't even, I can't even guarantee that I would have loved it. It's more just like such an idiosyncratic restaurant that needed to be experienced in its time. I mean, you can buy it out, apparently. That's what the business is now. That's what I've been hearing. Yeah, people have been seeing some activity in there and kind of wondering what's going on. Good for them. Good for them. Pivot out of restaurants to private dining and your beautiful idiosyncratic space. That's the way to do it. When you're craving fast food, what's the move?

52:30All right, I don't eat that much fast food. I recently tried that blue drink from Taco Bell and was like, what is this? It's like flat Sprite, but like not even as good as flat Sprite. I go for like falafel. Yeah. Like Goldie, you know, falafel in Philly is maybe like sort of where I'll go. The tahini shake with a falafel sandwich, like every topping they have. Just I'm in heaven. It's a I wish. I mean, Goldie is truly a national treasure. I love that place. I mean, the things that Mike Solomonov has done is just tremendous from like Laser Wolf, like, you know, Federal Donuts, Zahav, which I still haven't been to and is like also top of my list.

53:16Oh, yeah. I've been to Kafar many times. The place is good. Love that place. Yeah, it's amazing. And Philly, you're like, you have all of them in Philly. We only have half of them here. Yeah, right. New York. Yeah, maybe you'll get a few more. Maybe. It'd be great. It'd be great. A few more. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food. Boring, obvious, but true Paris. Yeah. But here's the thing. Like, as a city I've had a relationship with for many decades of my life, I've known it as a single person living there for a year in college. I've known it, you know, kind of many years since then.

53:51Working at Vogue magazine. Well, yeah, like working at Vogue. And it's a city where my wife and I have spent a good bit of time. So like Paris, there's just always something incredible to discover. I just find it so gratifying. This isn't true exclusively about France or anything, but a place where everybody's thinking about food. Yeah. Like seemingly all the time. Everybody cares. Everybody cares about the baseline level of quality of what's surrounding them. That I really enjoy. Last one, your favorite sandwich.

54:23It's the Veg Classic from Court Street Grocers. Yeah. I think. Or it's, oh God, or it's the - Look at you too, you got it. Oh God, it's the one from Middle Child. It's the shops and club. They do their house-made pickles, very thinly shaved. It's like Cooper Sharp cheese, lots of mayo, house roasted turkey, gorgeous bacon on this like beautiful sort of focaccia loaf, ciocciata thing. Oh my gosh, it's perfect. And that's Middle Child in Philly. Middle Child in Philly. And they do a Shopkins tribute? Yes, they do. That's so cool. That's what that is. They're very cool. Yeah, I've never been. I've heard plenty about Middle Child.

55:05It is so, so, so fun. Just up the street from me. Well, Chris Morocco, this has been tremendous. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Oh, thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

55:19This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste. you