615: Eddie Huang, an NYC Restaurant Pioneer, Is Back in Town Baby

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. That restaurant was really servicing me and my homies, like Maxwell Osborne, you know, like Kenzo Digital was up in there all the time. Like a lot of just like downtown New York artists, weirdos, but I think the food gatekeepers were grappling with what it meant to the food scene in Chefs, and it got struck down. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Eddie Wong hardly needs an introduction, but here's a shot. Eddie is a gifted writer, rap encyclopedia, film director, podcast host, best-selling author, and a pretty nice chef too.

1:11I've known Eddie since his days coming up in New York City in the 2000s, running the iconic Bauhaus and shaking up the food-riding world in the process. Today, Eddie's back living in New York after spending years in California, and we get into his new restaurant project, Gazebo, which is running as a monthly pop-up series. We also talk about New York City dining culture then and now, and Eddie takes the taste check. What a legendary conversation. I hope you enjoy it.

1:43Eddie Wong, welcome. This is Taste. Thank you, bro. It's great to see you, man. Yeah, yeah. It's a long time coming. Yeah, no, you were one of the first customers of Bauhaus, like on Rivington, I remember. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, you've been really pounding the pavement, like following food for a while. Thanks, man. So when the PR request came through, I was like, hey, yeah, yeah, fuck with Matt. I appreciate that. I'm just a big fan of your work, not just your cooking at Bauhaus Chayet and what you're doing now at Gazebo, but you as a writer. I mean, I've read a lot of your work, and it's just – we talk to a lot of writers here, and you're one of our peers, if you like it or not.

2:20Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just respect that. Yeah, no, I'm a food writer. You know, like I write about cookbooks. You sure as hell are, man. And we'll talk about cookbooks because you haven't done one yet. Yeah. I mean, let's just go into it right now. Why no cookbook? Because I feel like you've written so many, you know, screenwriter, you've written these incredible memoirs, two of them, which I've read. And I thought your second one in China was – that was a great book. Thanks. Love that. But why no cookbook? Yeah, you know, I actually have like a whole recipe document with – I think it has like 600 recipes in it that it's just a Google Doc I've been running.

2:52but um i think the reason why i know the reason why i haven't done a cookbook is because when i came out as a chef i really wanted to be a writer director like my interest was always in film because i grew up in a restaurant and i think i under appreciated the ability to tell stories through a restaurant like i understood it and i did it and i'm doing it again now and i enjoy it but i think because i grew up in a restaurant because like honestly like my parents the whole time were just giving me shit. Like, you know, you're just doing the same thing. You should do something better, yada, yada, yada.

3:26You know, I was like, if I write a cookbook and if I really embrace being a chef, I think it's going to be tough for people to see me as a writer director. And even, you know, when I was about to get the green light for Boogie, there were people at the studio, producers that were like, how invested in this are you? Like, are you going to go shoot a season of Wong's world are you going to focus on this and like that was a big reason why you know I didn't work it out with vice on Wong's world you know they you know they had budget issues at vice they offered at one point to do like a domestic version of Wong's world I was kind of a cunt and I was just like I mean it wouldn't be the world then would it you know yeah and we like amicably was just like I'm gonna focus on making this movie and so there were a lot of things I stopped doing I stopped doing like private chefing gigs and people if they're going to invest like millions of dollars in you to like make a feature film they want to know that that is your focus but as like hollywood is crumbling and the ability to tell stories through that medium is in flux um i've really had to look at myself in the mirror and art and communication in the mirror and i was like man I really just miss being able to cook something and then see somebody's face as they eat it.

4:46You know, that was kind of the beauty of Bauhaus was it was literally a counter. And you would come in, anybody would come in, I would just make the bau. And 30 seconds later, you just hear people going, oh, oh, you know, and like wiping their faces. And just like this shit is different. This is so it's like it's like American fast food. But with this vocabulary from China, it was such a refreshing, like back in 2009, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2009. 2009. You got to be giving credit. Thanks, man. I think it's a very simple idea, which was to cook food in the most authentic way to a Taiwanese night market Chinese culture.

5:30Hard to separate the two with the bao. Yeah, for sure. And we could play that. Yeah, no, I definitely don't want to get into it. We could. We'll get some downloads. We're good. We'll get some more downloads for the show. We probably will. Let's stick with it. Yeah, no, like, I mean, my views are, like, pretty obvious. Like, this is the flag of Sun Yat-sen, you know what I mean? And, you know, I would say that, yeah, Bauhaus as an idea was simply like, I can cook food authentic to the way I experience it in Taiwanese night markets. But we can be on Rivington Street in the Lower East Side, across from A Life, across from the basketball court, listening to the music, wearing the clothes, being the people that we are in America.

6:18It's like a super simple idea. It was like, we don't need to fuse. We don't need to, like, compromise. We don't need to assimilate or explain. It's just like, yo, we cook and fire Taiwanese food. And it's like we work in a store selling T-shirts, skateboards. That's it. And, you know, kind of like following that wave, you've got like Mission Chinese. Yeah. Right. You've got like a lot of folks who kind of were able to, you know, and take that ethic and then leverage it, you know, using a crappy word. But like what I want to ask you about is Xiaoye. Yeah. Xiaoye. I feel like I reviewed it and we talked about that review.

6:54I didn't know shit about any like cream food at that time. And I just didn't understand it. And I want to give you credit and just talk about it because I think you were really ahead of the time with that restaurant. Because what you're doing is cooking regional Chinese. You were cooking Taiwanese. You were cooking all over Asia. But you were doing it with vibes in mind. And this is like before vibes is even a term in a Mexican. And at that time, like New York, like wasn't getting Asian food. They weren't getting it. They weren't getting it as a cultural moment. And you really were a pioneer to like usher in the Uncle Boons of the world and these places that became like iconic restaurants.

7:28The restaurant did not work out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the vibe was too strong. The vibe was too strong. Yeah. But the point of view was too strong. And like, I think if that opens now and you're like, you know, the same age, you're young and you're like you're on like New York magazines, like top top two or three. But at the time, like Sifton didn't quite get it. I didn't quite get it as a critic. Yeah. And I'm just being, I'm admitting my mistake. No, but it's all cool. Like the thing is, is at the time, I think everyone was so focused on what was on the plate. Yeah, I know. And I was really focused on like what shoes people were wearing.

7:59And like, you know, I was into fashion. I was in this, I was into the low re side more than anything. I was into downtown New York and that restaurant was really servicing like me and my homies, like Maxwell Osborne, you know, like Kenzo Digital was up in there all the time. Like a lot of just like downtown New York artists and weirdos were like popping in and we were enjoying it. But I think the food like gatekeepers, you know, like critics like Sam Sifton were grappling with what I was doing downtown, what it meant to the food scene and chefs. And it got struck down, you know. And I think if a critic came out today and reprimanded a chef for being on their phone in the kitchen, it'd be like laughable.

8:45Yeah, exactly. But that was kind of like what Sam really stuck me with. And in the review, like I've gone back to read it every few years. It's great. Yeah. It's fuel. The food is fire. He's like, the Singaporean person I brought with me to eat was like, this is the best Hainan chicken I've eaten in 16 years. There was like really, really actually like kind review of food. but I've like stayed friends with Sam and even like three weeks ago because it's the first time I've cooked for someone like in a publication like a writer who criticizes or reviews food was like Tammy from Grub Street and I remember she came and she was telling the people at the flower shop like yo I need to like talk to Eddie like when is Eddie gonna come sit down and talk and they were like he's cooking you know and so I would make a dish and come over and make a dish and come over and I think she was like why isn't Eddie sitting down to talk to me because I got to interview him for this article and I was like I've been burned by Sam already like I'm not sitting in the dining room like if you come to Gazebo now like I come out when the desserts come out I do not hang out in the dining room because I have I've been killed once for it before you know we had Tammy in actually a few days after she visited and we were talking off mic about Gazebo and she mentioned that you were she was just like sitting there and her expectation was to interview you but clearly you made the right choice because you're focusing on the cuisine and we'll talk about your June menu and your July menu but Eddie I mean this this is like you're back in New York cooking at Gazebo and from Tammy's piece and talking to her you know your wife comes from a family of olive oil and I was thinking like Bertoli billions I was thinking but it's actually a small production.

10:31But olive oil is part of what you're cooking with now and this vocabulary that blends Mediterranean, Taiwanese, super fresh. How did you come to that? Yeah, so my wife, her family owns like a plot of land that produces some of the best olive oil in Greece. But the relationship between that field, the family, and the government is like very complicated. so they don't export and ship or sell outside of Greece. All of their oil is spoken for every single season, every single harvest within the country. And it's sold to local places and somebody runs the field. But everyone in the family gets like a huge five-gallon drum of it each harvest.

11:18So the first year I was married to my wife, it just showed up. Just a giant drum and it was like dripping olive oil. I remember bringing it in off. the sidewalk and i was like yo babe what is this it looks like it's from greece she's like oh that's like our allocation from the harvest and they send you the full five gallons the full five gallons and like dripping everywhere like i immediately got it into mason jars put them in like wow cool dark areas of the house yeah and um i started to use it and i was like yo this is the best olive oil I've tasted ever point blank period. Like I had great olive oil in Sicily.

11:56I had some great stuff when I went to Istanbul, but like the Greek olive oil is to me just like unstoppable. And, um, I started to cook with it mainly with like salads and cold dishes and things like that. And then I just started to get freaky. I started to do ceviche and like brush a little olive oil on the bottom. I was like, oh, that was nice. That was like, that gave it a little earthiness that wasn't usually there. I started to do stir fries at medium heat. See, that's the key. Like you were, you were able to dial a stir fry down to cook with the olive oil. That's the talent right there. Yeah.

12:34Yeah. No, it's hard to do. And like, to me, cooking is just the application of heat or not applying heat to certain ingredients. That's it. And so I think when you look at an ingredient, you got to say to yourself, all right what application of heat serves this item the best and i started to look at like chinese pork stir fries and i said to myself well i really like the char on like an iberian pork secreto the meat like by the rib i was like what if i first charred up the pork then i don't need a high heat stir fry to like brown that pork, I can put it on the grill, cut it up and then stir fry it at a very low to medium heat with the aromatics, deliver it like a tofu, a cured tofu and pork stir fry with the olive oil.

13:25And it was next level. It was a revelation. And it's, it's just like one of the greatest innovations of cooking in this generation has been sous vide, right? You're just messing with temperature. You're, you know, instead of cooking a steak at a high temp, you're like, hey, maybe if I cook the steak at a low temp, then finish it at a high temp, boom. I did the opposite. I'm cooking meat at a high temp, finishing it in a low temp, in olive oil, and now olive oil has another use. Because it's not degraded. You're getting the spice and the pepper of this great olive oil, right? Yeah. But then, in the meat, does it have a flavor profile from Taiwan in it?

14:04Does it have a Taiwanese flavor? Oh, it tastes like Taiwanese food, but in a luscious olive oil. It's just like, it's like, you know, usually, you know, a lot of people in Chinese restaurants are like Taiwanese street food. It's, you know, you're using soybean oil. You're using neutral oils that don't really have a flavor. Whatever. It's like the leather in a bootleg bag on Canal Street. Like what I'm doing with this olive oil is like, yo, I put it in Luayve leather. I like the call. Yeah. It's the same ingredients, but you're just putting it in better leather. No. And I think like diners, this leads to my question, just in 20, you're operating in 2009, 2010, and now you're operating 15 years later.

14:49I mean, what are you seeing about the New York City diner, the change? I mean, I observe that there's more money and just more ambition for a diner. That's my take, but I'd love to get yours. Yeah. For me, I do think there's been more attention paid to vibe. probably since like 2018, I would say. And I think people are much more concerned about like the music and things like that. Like when we started Bauhaus, people thought it was insane that we were just playing mixtapes and rap music like in the dining room. Now it's everywhere. Like I don't want to hear rap music when I go to a restaurant.

15:23That shit's at CVS now. Yeah. I mean, it's everywhere now. Yeah. Yeah. And so for us at Gazebo, it's like, you know, we've adopted like an Italian disco kind of like synth pop format. Italian disco, I think, you know, had a renaissance 2018, 2019 as well. I think you kind of want to like let the dance floor have the vibe and then let it trickle down into a dining room. So I chose Italian disco because I'm like, it's had its moment on the dance floor. I think the dance floor is at a higher BPM now. And I think Italian disco is fit for like another era in the dining room. Yeah, it's ready for its vibes moment.

16:06Let's go back to the gazebo menu. You know, you're doing monthly menus, which is terrific. You can smash the resi and hit the resi button to get your bookings for July. but in June you were cooking a lot of like the Eddie hits like lion's head meatballs and red cooked pork and then you wrote on your terrific uh subset canal street dreams about the July ambitions and I was like man this is sounding really good you're like more seafood less stews more vinegar uh how are you gonna evolve every month and talk about this July menu I think it sounds really cool man thank you you know like some of the best eating experiences I've ever had are in Jamaica in the summer.

16:41Like I love going to Jamaica in the summer and just, you know, it's just a lot of vinegar. It's a lot of grilled seafood. That's a big inspiration. Obviously like living in LA for a few years, Agua Chile, things like that. Yeah, yeah. Visiting Javier Wong in Peru, getting to like learn how to make Leche de Tigre from him. Yeah, yeah. That's a big inspiration. And then I think New York is just like in a Spanish Renaissance. Like Chef Nick from Servos, you know, that group is just on smash. Like I'm at Eel Bar intentionally and accidentally probably every week. What are you ordering? You know, you got to get the fried mussels there.

17:24Fried mussels is always phenomenal there. They do it in the shell. They are really aggressive. They change the menu, it seems, every five weeks. It's really, really impressive. on this current menu the black sea bass fried black sea bass but just like a wipe of mayonnaise is yeah is excellent um on a previous menu there was a rabbit bomba rice with some shellfish in there the way they're cooking is just extremely smart and uh in my upcoming essay on places i talk about the expediter there and like why he's like my hero yeah and give us a little preview When you talk about expo and that, what gives you, what allows you to offer praise and shout out an expo position?

18:08So expediter is kind of like my favorite position to look at a restaurant from during service, right? And you can see the tenor and pace. Like the expediter is really like the composer of the symphony. And he's setting the tone for the kitchen and the restaurant. He's the interstitial between like kitchen and servers. this guy every time a ticket came in he was outlining like what he wanted to do you could see in black marker his plan he's like all right i'm putting a box around this but i'm firing this and i'm firing that and i'm saving this and he was just like playing tetris in a very cool way and i was sitting there at a table directly catty corner so i could see everything he was doing and when he called out the dishes that he wanted fired the cooks just immediately turned one or two movements within three minutes every dish was in front of him and as soon as the order was ready he just put his hand up in the air and he goes hands and i was like damn this is like yeah it's borderline condescending to the servers and waste half but i love it i love it they're in their contract with each other.

19:22Yeah. They're a team. Because my thing is, the kitchen should never be ahead of the waitstaff. Yeah. I really think and I believe in hot food. I believe in serving food at the temperature it was intended to be served at. As the chef, I would hope so. Yeah. And so I love that this dude was just aggressively like, hands! Hands! I'm giving you this dish, my guy. Yeah. Back to my original question. But I just want to say, the servers and waitstaff at Eel Bar are phenomenal. Yeah. They would come running. And like no one had issues with it. I think everyone at that restaurant has bought into serving food at the correct temperature.

19:58That's cool. That's cool. And respect to those guys over at Eel Bar. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey link in our show notes.

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21:59Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Back to my original question, though, about the 2010 versus 2025. I know vibes are big, but what about just like the diner? You're cooking for Gen Z now. And that's like a that's a whole different diner than 15 years ago in New York. What do you I just love your insight into New Yorkers and how they're dining out. You know, I'll tell you, this is my theory. Like I said, how like music should trickle down from the dance floor into the restaurant. Like, I think when a restaurant is trying to keep up with the club or the rave or the dance floor, incorrect.

22:34right yeah i have no issue like gen z i find incredible like me too i'm just as a as a mid-millennial observer i'm just like go off do your thing you know like oh sign yeah yeah i'm you know i i love what's happening around like alphabet city tompkin square park like i walk into this is bowl and i'm like this is a gen z salad spot yeah fuck with it um but I'm not a poser. You know, like, I'm not from Gen Z. I think I understand it, but I'm not presumptuous enough to be like, this restaurant's for Gen Z. I know, I know. I think the restaurant owner, like, you got to just know who you are. And I think some restaurants, let's say Emilio Bellatos.

23:18Thank you for shouting. They represent a generation way, way older, right? Like a post-war generation in a way. but I think it's important to represent the generation you're from and you understand because then Gen Z or whatever comes after Gen Z, Gen Alpha can come to your restaurant and be like, oh, this is what you believed in. These were your values. And, you know, I think that's my responsibility. I think if I'm chasing Gen Z and hiring young creative directors and just being a thirsty old dude, it's like that whack dude that was in the club when we were young. Like I hated that guy so i'm kind of like i i believe that gen z will come find what i'm doing and what other people are doing but then they'll also have their chefs and their restaurants and you know like i love seeing ha's snack bar yeah right like great restaurant i haven't gotten to eat there because it's too busy yeah it's tough res man you know like anthony will offer me like two at 10 p.m I'm like, dog, I got a kid.

24:20You're a kid. I'm cooked at 10 p.m., man. You know, but like there are a lot of restaurants that I think are for Gen Z that embrace those things. Like I think if I told you what I see as the tenants of a Gen Z restaurant, it would sound condescending. So I'm going to refrain from doing it. We're not going there. But we know what it is. You know, you know what it is. Yeah, we know what it is. And just such a smart take about the idea of staying in your lane, cooking with point of view, and just not trying to thirst towards an audience. That's the recipe for a New York City restaurant to succeed.

24:55Yeah, yeah, yeah. I stand my ground. I still cook in NBA jeans. You know what I mean? Not ironically. I own those jeans. So it's like you want to see an ancient hip-hop man cook in NBA jeans come through. I love your style. You got the best. And as an aside, who's the Knicks coach? Man, I hope it's Mike Malone. That would be wonderful. Man, please. They're like talking to the assistant of the Timberwolves. I feel like right now the Knicks is like the hot girl at the party that everybody is like intentionally curving because it's like, oh, I get to curve a hot girl. And I just hope the Knicks remember they're the hot girl at the party.

25:32Everyone else in the Eastern Conference is dead. Well, Halbert going down is a big thing. Yeah. The Pacers are cooked. The Celtics are cooked. R.I.P. Like I hope everybody feels better and gets new Achilles. But like, yo, this is a Knicks time. We are the hot girl at the party. We got to remember that. And we should not go home with any bum coaches. Yeah, Malone's a winner. Sorry, listeners, if you're not in the NBA, but we had to ask you. Back to New York, you wrote in your terrific, you wrote an essay on your sub stack about the$16 Aperol spritz, which I think you use that as a great device to talk about cost.

26:08And you're, you know, in the commons, there's some, you know, some conversation about barriquette and bring it back. And like in an era, you know, the early 2000s when I moved here, like you could have food for$10 that was really good. And now it's like everyone's in debt trying to eat at all these restaurants. And I'm going to link to that essay. Definitely read it because it's terrific. But expand a bit about this like idea that you got to go out to a restaurant for cultural cachet and cool. But like we're going broke doing it. Yeah, I think one thing that like very viral popular West Village Girls article missed was like, it's not that they're just like lemmings and followers.

26:51It's like we're coming out of this era, I would say from like 2017, 2018 till now, where like everybody wanted to absorb and adopt rich people culture, right? Like people were seeing these vacationers on the Amalfi Coast and sponsored trips and things like that. Like the Revolve Coachella. And I just came up in an era where if you were downtown, you like didn't want to go uptown or midtown. Like you didn't want to be at the 21 Club or whatever. It was like, no, we doing our thing down here. And I do feel from 2017 to 2018, there's just like so much money and investment was sloshing around. Everyone saw their opportunity to rub elbows with really rich people, endear themselves to them.

27:41A lot of cool people, whether it's like DJs, stylists, designers, I think really like hoed themselves out to people with money and joined their entourages. And the tokenization of like artful downtown people has been really like whack to watch. And I just I think it's going to break because the downtown people and the artful working class people that have been faking it till they make it are not making it. And they don't have any more money on their credit cards to continue faking it with. So it's all going to bust. Yeah, I agree. we can't afford this lifestyle. Yeah. I mean, how do we revert back to when, like, I mean, fashion is your bag, so correct me if I'm wrong, but, like, in early 2000s, like, you could wear, like, old clothes, and it worked.

28:35The aesthetic worked. And, like, the aesthetic now is not that. I mean, we're talking about, like, stealth wealth and, like, paying for, I mean, this is a fashion conversation, I guess. But with food, I mean, downtown, there are no places you can go and have a$10 meal right now. How does that change? Or does it change? Or is it lost? I mean, I think things just are going to break. Yeah. Right? Because I think what needed to happen was the consumer needed to be responsible and set budgets and not spend. But I think it's really, really hard to do that when the rest of society is online spiraling and it's like, this is the hot place to be.

29:20I got to be here. I got to get the flick. I need this Aperol Spritz. Like, I got to be at the Bar Bianchi opening, you know? I love it. And you do it and you mortgage your future and you rack up credit card debt. But I think there's just ultimately going to be a point where, like, people bust out. Yeah. Because, you know, you can't afford it. I love that we took it there. I mean, I feel creative directors are just taking L's in all of your writing. You have to think about creative directors. Because it's a fake job. Expand on that. It's a fake job. Like, I'm the vibes officer, you know? I want to ask you a little bit more about July.