616: Meet Your New New York Times Restaurant Critic, Ligaya Mishan

26:19So I recognize that. Do you have a favorite tea story from the past couple of years or even for your long run writing for them? I really liked writing about fake cakes. Do you remember that during the pandemic where they're the cakes that look like household objects? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do remember that. That was really fun. I mean, recently I wrote about Sichuan pepper and and and I was able to connect it to, you know, doing ketamine and nightclubs. Yeah. Somehow. And so I'm writing about an ASMR and I think Virginia Woolf got in there, too. And so I sometimes just making the connections, the connections that aren't necessarily obvious at first look is part of what makes it fun.

27:06I mean, very zeitgeist of you to talk about ketamine. It spends thousands of years. But I love that about your writing. I don't want to embarrass you, Ligaya, but I hope you could do us a favor. I'd like you to read the lead of your first proper review as co-chief critic. I loved it. It was of The View. We'll talk about the actual review. But I just want you to read a little bit of the lead because it's such a Ligaya piece. And we rarely do this on the show, but you're game for it and I really appreciate it. Oh, you're so nice. Thank you. All right. I haven't read this out loud, so we'll see how it goes.

27:47Nearly 2 ,000 years ago, Rome burned for seven nights straight. Nero, the 26-year-old emperor, did not fiddle through the disaster as famously claimed. Bowed string instruments didn't exist. But as soon as the flames died down, he started building a vast palace over the ruins, big enough to house a 120-foot-tall statue of himself. There he alternately wooed and menaced his fellow aristocrats in a round banquet hall that rotated on a giant pillar, likely powered by flowing water, while pipes in the ceiling rained down perfume. We have megalomania to thank, then, for the world's first revolving dining room.

28:24Not until the 20th century did anyone attempt such a feat again. It's really good. Thank you. Trying that comparison. It's funny. I mean, it's funny. And I love it. I mean, how do you write your leads? Well, I mean, the lead, this is the horror of the empty page, right? You have to start. Where do you find it? Yeah. Oh, every time it's brutal. I think that, so when I was thinking about this particular restaurant, which is a revolving restaurant, so it's kind of a gift. I knew that there had to be something. So I thought, let's research. And there is an entire book devoted to revolving architecture that I found.

29:10Oh, amazing. So you reviewed that book to write this piece? I mean, I look through it. I have to admit, I did not read all maybe 500 pages. I wouldn't expect that for a weekly column, Magaya. You can't read everything. You may be fast reader, but not that fast. But yeah, so I think that the fact that through the story of Nero, I think it also this particular time of this precarious moment, this sort of apocalypse in Rome of this fire, and that the response would just be, I need a palace. And the 120 foot tall statue, I should note, this is all coming from Suetonius' take on Nero. So other historians say maybe it was only 96 feet tall, but still.

29:52Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I loved this idea, though, that this was sort of a one-of-a-kind thing that then just did not happen again until the 1950s. And then I was also thinking, and maybe this is where hopefully all of my tea writing will still come to play, which is I was thinking, well, why? This is always the question. It's not just that the thing exists. So revolving restaurants became popular in the 1960s. Why would that be? And so I had to do some hard thinking. There's not an answer out there necessarily. So I thought, well, I mean, it does coincide with the space age. And was there something about seeing the world from above?

30:32Obviously, aviation, all of these moments and this very optimistic moment for America, especially. I mean, there are revolving restaurants all over the world. But we thought so much was possible. Yeah. Right? Like we could have the world at our feet. It's such an interesting take. And you really thought deeply about the framing of it. And like revolving restaurants just in history, I don't think of one example of the food being particularly good. You know, you think of like the Space Needle in Seattle has a restaurant up there and it revolves and it's very touristy and there are bars or something.

31:11But the idea that Danny Meyer opens up a restaurant in this iconic and that space had been there for a long time and was maybe, you know, selling sun chips at some point before the reboot. A buffet. A buffet, I'm sure, a buffet. And what a wonderful tourist attraction to see Times Square from 360 Vantage. So when you go in and dine there, I mean, from the review, it felt like for a one star, you gave it a very fair take. It didn't feel like you were like blown away by the ambition of this restaurant, but it seemed like it fit the space. Well, I think one star is good. And that is – so I don't think that – when I'm approaching this, you know, we only have three, four stars in New York City right now.

31:57And there's not that many three stars actually either. So I feel like I want to restore the sense that a one star is a respectable – that's a respectable rating. You know, the food is so much better than it has to be for where it is and for that panorama, which will draw people no matter what. So I really – I wanted to honor that while also recognizing that not everything. You're not going to go and have the meal of your life there. But there are different – there are different restaurants for different reasons. There are different restaurants for different moments. I want to embrace all of that.

32:35There's a place just to go somewhere and the food isn't necessarily the focus. It's good enough. And that's good too, right? There's a place in our lives for that. And one star means something. You said it very clearly and I think there was – there's still maybe after this interview, but there's always been this like question about what did the stars mean? And you've done us a service by saying that because you should celebrate one stars. Now, of course, there's restaurants that will aim for three and get the one, right? That's a whole other ballgame with the one star, right? That's true. So a lot of it does depend on the ambition of the restaurant.

33:13And I think, you know, there's a lot to think about here in terms of a two star. It's such a big range. And what do you give a three star for? And I have to say that I think that I think that ambition that gets I mean, I think that swinging for the stars, even if it's not fully realized, that that's worth that's that's worth rewarding, too. So I haven't still working it all out. Tajal and I have lots of talks about it. But, yeah, this question of I don't think it has to be a perfect space in order to get a three star. I don't think that three stars is hooked into a certain price point or – right?

33:53Three stars to the Lechon place in the Bronx. That seems completely right to me if you go and you have joy. I mean that represents New York too. It represents the dynamic, the socioeconomic dynamic of the city that you shouldn't have to have a lot of money to get a three-star meal. And then there's – but there is also this question of what happens when you go to the place that's pretty good but so expensive. And at what point does it seem like it's too expensive for what it is? And at the same time, you know what? Labor costs are really high and people deserve to be paid for their work. So I think it's a very complicated question.

34:39Oh, I mean – And food probably should cost more than it does. Just look at our food system. So there's so many things to think about. So I never take it for granted either way. I understand the person who is thinking, don't review all the expensive places. But I also understand even the expensive places. It's not as if their profit margins are huge. The profit margins are the same, which is very, very, very low. No one's getting exorbitantly wealthy on running a restaurant. I'm sorry. If you look at the grand scheme of businesses in our city, I have to ask about the idea of the of the mid restaurant, because I think I've talked to like Bill Addison about this and many other critics over the years of interviewing restaurant critics.

35:21part of your job is kind of unknown you make these visits and you you kind of you experience something that is not good not bad but maybe mid and you can't really write about it what is that what is that like for you when you go somewhere that you just feel like it's not worthy of the review and you've already spent this time there that can feel a little disappointing and sometimes i'm disappointed on the behalf of the restaurant also because people are working hard and uh but But there just might not be a story. I mean, it's my job to find the story. So I do try and I think about is it worth it?

35:58Is there something else here? Are they doing anything that New Yorkers should know about? Is it just public service because this place is really hyped? So sometimes it can be enough. If a place is super hot, you can't get a reservation, and it's mid, then it would be a public service to tell people that. It's called a newspaper for a reason. There's news in it. Yeah. But if there's a place that maybe, you know, it burned a little brightly at the beginning, but then a few months in you can get reservations fairly, then maybe people are getting the picture. Yeah. And then it doesn't make sense. I don't think, first of all, I don't ever want, never just write a review to be, it feels cruel to pile on somebody who, right, it might be better just to pass over things in silence, I think.

36:42You save them from themselves. Yeah. I appreciate the aspects of the job. All that aside, though, do you get angry when you feel like you haven't been given value or you've been, I mean, you've been ripped off. I mean, it happens. You have that feeling. Did you get angry a little bit? I've been lucky that that hasn't happened yet. Okay. I think I did have a disappointing meal the other night. And it just sort of made me a little sad because the restaurant was so charming. The people who worked there were clearly working hard. it had a little bit of hype around it so i i just had expected a more and i thought is is part of the problem here my expectations would this have been fine um if i hadn't come in and i ordered so much maybe i ordered too much and maybe this is the place where you only get they only have maybe two or three really good dishes but if you get those and you have a great glass of wine you'll have a lovely evening yeah right so i i think it's very hard because i my my expectations going in are so much higher than someone else's.

37:47So but I think the only when I think about anger, I think there was one time I think I want to have a sense that the people in the kitchen respect what they're doing. Yeah, that makes sense. It makes perfect sense. That there's care and attention. We don't want to have cynical restaurants in our in our life. Yes, that's it. Yes. You know, like cynical meaning like possibly trying to upsell based on cultural cachet sneaking some things in just to get the bill up, you know, things that or serving dishes that they're not they don't believe in, but they they're doing it for cynical ways. Yeah. I will say that there one thing at this restaurant in this disappointing meal.

38:29So we had ordered just as a side some, you know, some some fries, right, just to have on the side some frites. Because you always should. Why not? I mean, you always should. Well, if there are frites on the menu, you get the frites on the menu. You're going free. It's not just dame out there. There's some good fries in our city. And never in my life have I taken a bite of a French fry and put it down. Wow. Was it temperature? It was texture. Yeah. A little too salty, a little too spongy. The sponginess. I know the feeling. Yeah. So I think I'm not hard to please when it comes to frites. I will happily eat McDonald's fries, which actually, of course, are like a gold standard.

39:17100%. But what I mean to say is that I've had many mediocre fries in my life that I've eaten joyfully. So I thought, what has happened here? Is something wrong with me or is something wrong with these fries? Have I lost all sense? I mean, you're joking in a funny way, but do you think about that sometimes? Do you second guess your instincts? Like maybe you've changed, your palate's changed, or your capacity to love a certain dish has been diminished somehow. So Tejal and I talked about this too. I think there are always these longers, right, where there's suddenly a patch of time where nothing really excites you.

39:54And you think, have I lost it? And then you taste something that resets it all. And you say, oh, right, this can be so beautiful. It's that January through mid-March time I think about most. I think about most because we've come away from the holidays. It's cold. It's miserable in New York. It can be really bad. And you're trying to get excited about certain cuisines that maybe express freshness, express warmth. And like you're in this like blizzard or this rain. And also it's just like a time of year we don't – I mean I'm just saying I see you having that moment of nothing is good. Yeah. But it's your job to like find the good stuff.

40:33Although in the middle of a blizzard, you can come in and someplace takes you in and there's like the shimmer of low light and they serve you something warm. Or I remember actually a place, I think it was a Ukrainian place maybe, in Queens. And it was so far from the subway in the depths of winter. I mean the wind. And I got in, right, and the vodka came right away and everything was suddenly haloed. And it just – so I think, yes, it's funny. So much can depend on your experience of a restaurant the moment, the particular moment you go. So I know that even if – no matter how many times I go, other people aren't going to have the exact same experience I have.

41:19I just have to keep that in mind. I'm just offering a guide. Okay. So. On a human level, not on a critic level, is there a food you just don't like? Because you're a human. We're not talking about the critic. You're human. And we all have our preferences. Is there something you just don't like? I'm not a fan of raisins. Yeah. Okay, they're very key in cooking. And when they're in a dish, I can. Yeah. That's different. But somehow raisins by themselves, when I see them, I think I try to evade them. Yeah. They can be funky. But when you put like a sherry vinegar and you. Transform them. And then they're juicy again.

41:57And they burst in your mouth. Yes. So I have to say all of my little food ticks like that, I think it's a me problem. Yeah, you recognize it. I'm ready to be open to all of those things. This has been amazing, by the way. Thank you for coming in. A few more questions. I mean, you mentioned the travel and balancing it. What is your travel? What are your travel plans? I mean, are you hitting a Delta diamond this year? Are you going like on the road once a month? I mean, what's that like? So I am thinking that I'm taking, you know, I'll probably take three or four trips in the next couple months.

42:40I like trains. Yeah. In America, that can be challenging. Well, you know, I did once years ago, I did a cross-country trip to California by train. So I don't know. I mean, I don't have the time to do that anymore. I have a family, so I can't. But I did look into it. I thought, oh, is it possible to take a train? Can I take a train to Chicago? And it would just take too long. And it's actually more expensive than flying. Yeah. So hopefully maybe once, twice a month. But, you know, I've got to go to these restaurants more than once. So and ideally not on the same visit. Right. You want to see a restaurant at different moments.

43:18That is. So that's a little tricky. A scheduling challenge. Do you have help scheduling at all or is it all on you? I think the editor said that maybe somebody could help me. Yeah. Yeah. Thus far. I just I just officially started my first official day at the Times on Monday. Well, so that was we had emailed about that because, you know, we think of you as a New York Times employee, you know, part of this institution. But the fact is, is you're a new employee there now. This is a new full time job. I was a freelancer for all those years, which was great. You know, when my daughter was young and just having the flexibility to just 100 percent be there to pick her up from school.

43:55What's the first week of the Times like? Are you just meeting people that you've known on paper and now you know them in person? What's it like? Well, it's fun. It's fun being on Slack and suddenly to DM people or then you meet a Pulitzer Prize winner in the hallway. And I just – it's thrilling, I have to say. So, I mean, maybe it gets old. But you walk in there and that's the newsroom. I mean, that's like what you – and everybody's, you know, like all these stories. The food section is right next to investigations. I just keep wanting to creep over there. I bet. But I mean, the food section is like an anchor in the paper.

44:29I mean, not just cooking, which is obviously a huge financial success, but just it's part of the paper. It's in the morning. It's like really foundational to the time. So I'm sure people are seeking you out. Oh, well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. with all that travel and circling back. I mean, physically, how do you envision yourself, you know, staying healthy? I mean, it's a lot. It's a lot. You know, so I run. I'm, you know, I run 40 miles. Maybe I'll have to up it to 50 miles a week. You're 40 a week. Cool. Do you compete? You know, long ago before, before my daughter was born, so really long ago now.

45:11But I keep thinking someday I'll get back into it. And so I made a New Year's resolution at the start of this year. It's the first New Year's resolution I have ever kept, which was to do push-ups every day. And I am up to 36 push-ups a day. Incredible. And you started with basically one or two. I started with 10. Okay, 10. And I do strength training once a week. I should do it more than once. But so trying, trying. Generally speaking, what's your route like? Where do you like to run around New York? Well, I live right near Central Park. So I'm very lucky. Reservoir loops. Yeah. Or I do the whole thing.

45:49So the whole thing is 6.1 miles. And there's like, you can mix it up a little bit. So part of it is on the reservoir. And I ride the bridle path. You know, I run the bridle path. But yeah, that's my - Lovely run. Podcast, music, nothing at all. What's in the headphones? It's music all the way. Music? Yeah, I think my playlist is 18 hours long because I just need to have constant variety. Yeah, 18 hours mix. And you're going on shuffle. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I feel like you can come back and talk about running. I think it's a micro theme here. Last question before we get to Taste Check. How do you want people to remember the LaGaia era of the reviewer?

46:33I know, sorry, this is podcast, me talking. I just have to ask that question because I think you have probably thought about that as you enter this new role. But say we're combing through the archives in 2015 and we're looking at this change. How do you want to be remembered? I haven't thought about it. Maybe I should have thought about it. I think I was just so excited to get this gig. It's a hard question at this phase. I hope that I'll be remembered. I hope that the research and scholarship will matter in the long run. that people might feel like they learned something. Because I learned something when I go to the restaurant.

47:08So I'm hoping that the readers will learn something too, that I can pass that on. I think that's a good answer. It's a tough question, especially so new in the role. But thank you for sharing that. I think it's like you're getting more than just what's on the plate, if it's good or not. And I just love that. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair?

47:41You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables and little baggies.

48:19I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I had pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.

48:59It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious.

49:39Taste check. Are you ready? I don't know how fast and furious, but I'll do my best. We typically cut the fast and furious part. We can be thoughtful and slow if you'd like. The best fruit. Mango. all year or is there a certain season? Oh, man. Well, only in season. I know. That's true. Do I have to name a fruit for every season? You don't have to. That's a good follow-up question to me. The worst vegetable. So this may sound slightly lame, but I don't know if there's a vegetable I hate, actually. I think that I just don't understand maybe all vegetables. I've never learned to love celery, but I want to because people do amazing things with it.

50:24So I've got to try. I respect that response. I think if you had been like, I don't like beets, that would be taped to some kitchen walls. Oh, oh no. Well, but I have to say because I've had some celery dishes recently which are really interesting. What made it that way without saying about the restaurant but what made it interesting? I thought it was a very cerebral uh well i i'm gonna it was a dessert okay so it was very cerebral and the server said something really beautiful that um she said you can taste the aliveness of the celery so i thought okay i'm i'm meeting celery fully in this in this dessert and um i need to get to know celery better i'm i'm i love that response i grew up in a community in west michigan that is known as It's a celery city, Portage, Michigan.

51:19Wow. Props to celery. What is your typical breakfast? It's probably very boring. It's yogurt, walnuts, blueberries every day. Definitely not boring, and it makes a lot of sense that you have a very diet. We're going to, like, unpack this a bit. Okay, what type of yogurt brand or just— It's Faye. It's 0%. I get my protein and my calcium. Walnuts and blueberries are superfoods. How many food writers out there start with 0 % Faye? I have it in my hand. I am one of them. We sometimes have to just do the zero faille and move on. Well, because the day will include chocolate. So, you know, that's second breakfast.

52:00That's second breakfast. A little square here and there. The best dessert. Of all time? It doesn't have to be a restaurant, just like category or the style of dessert. First of all, I love all desserts. I know you do. Maybe the celery one was more difficult. So I can think of – so a specific thing off the top of my head is a tarte au citron that I had at Bon Temps in Paris, which just seems to me like it's like a platonic ideal of a tarte au citron, which is – it's got this shortbread cookie crust. It has – there's a – the lemons come from somewhere special. And so they're extra – they have that extra bright sourness.

52:44And it's got meringue and there's a little lemon gelée as well as the lemon – anyway, it is a joy to eat. Yeah. But I should say desserts I've had recently – I don't know if I can throw this in. I'm sorry. I'm not doing it fast and furious. We're not. We're editing that part out. Okay. There's no fast and furious here. But I've twice had, in the past, in one week I had Madeline's for dessert. At one place they just came. Like a whole cone of mini Madeline's. At another place they were special. When a Madeline is warm, it's exactly, it's all I want to eat. Do you like a little texture on the outside of a Madeline?

53:23So there's like a little bit of a contrast between the inside and the outside? Just a little. Just a little. So thin. Exactly. It has to have that little thin. coating of breaking through and then you're getting done sponges. Yes, yes. Warm. It's hard to do with a pickup of a fresh madeleine at a busy restaurant. That's challenging. It's really hard. I should say there is a madeleine spot in Paris that I went to. The mountains were great and then we took some home and 12 hours later they were fantastic. Oh, that's a... I thought, how is that even possible? They usually get crunchy. Oh, wow. Blaise Sucre in case you're ever...

53:58Good, right. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? So, you know, I was walking through the West Village the other night and I passed the old Anissa space. Oh, yeah. And that was probably the first fancy restaurant I went to in New York. And my husband and I, we were total newbies in that sense. We went on New Year's Eve, which, you know. Rookie move for some, but a joyous move for others. And it was fantastic. So they didn't dial it in. They didn't try to dumb it down because it was all the newbies like us. And Anita Lowe is such a phenomenal chef that I just wish that she was cooking somewhere.

54:40Yeah, I think she I mean, I caught up with Anita a couple of years ago and she seems like she's having a good time not cooking. Well, more power to her. More power to her. And for the record, by the way, New Year's Eve restaurants in New York can be some of the best meals ever. I think I misspoke when I said new. I think we like to flex that we don't go out to restaurants. But like New Year's Eve rules when you when you hit the right spot because it's the hospitality is always dialed up and they get the balloons up and sorry I just want to state clearly I'm not shading the years in restaurant because it can be pretty fun a couple more when you're craving fast food.

55:12What's the move? Oh, so this is I feel like there's so many places that qualify as fast food for sure in this city so for sure but I might have the same answer as the we have a best sandwich question coming, I think. Yeah, I think we do. Sorry to give that away. So it might be the same. So maybe if I say it now, then it'll spoil it later. We can answer both questions and we'll end with a different question. Thank you for being aware of our... Oh, unless we're talking about if we're on a road trip. Sure. Yeah, outside the state. If we're on a road trip, please let there be a Taco Bell. Oh, hell yeah.

55:47Because what else can I do? There's a reason I know I like to. Oh, Taco Bell. What's the order? Oh, I mean, wow. Now, there aren't as many Taco Bells, so I have not been able to go lately. So now, off the top of my head, I have no idea. I think on your travels, you might find one in parts of our country where they are quite plentiful. Why are there not more Taco Bells? There are too many non-Taco Bells. Non-Taco Bells. I mean, that's a good question. Maybe we can bring it up in a future episode. I think, why aren't there more Taco Bells? Yes, I think we need to know. Let's bring back Mystery Show.

56:21So again, yeah, so more typically it's whatever burger place, I will get the fries. That's my order. Always the fries. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Bangkok. Amazing. I just, I could eat Thai food for the rest of my life. Love that one. And let's end with the traditional ending question. Your favorite sandwich. So I think it's in Sunnyside. Bolivian Yama Party makes a fried chicken sandwich, which I actually don't know how they do it. And I don't know if the secret is they have this mayo, this, I think it's pronounced Yawa, mayo that has, it has Lakoto chilies in it, which are just have a little more kick.

57:08A little more kick, but maybe some acidity or astringency that's cool too or whatever. Yeah, everything. The bun is perfect. Oh. The crust on the chicken is perfect. The pickles are perfect. Great answer. And what an amazing conversation. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. So much fun.

57:32This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.