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Podcast Episode Notes: This Is TASTE - Episode 617: Masala y Maíz Is Rooting Deep in Mexico City
Episode Overview Hosts: Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard Guests: Norma Listman and Saqib Keval, chefs/co-owners of Masala y Maíz Release Date: [Insert release date] Duration: [Insert duration] Listen here: [Apple Podcasts](https://apple.com), [Spotify](https://spotify.com), [YouTube](https://youtube.com)
Description In this episode, chefs and co-owners of Masala y Maíz, Norma Listman and Saqib Keval, discuss their unique culinary venture that blends traditions from India, East Africa, and Mexico. They dive into their restaurant's ethos focused on equity, their latest expansion, experiences filming for Chef’s Table, and share their favorite culinary spots in Mexico City.
Key Topics Discussed
Introduction to Masala y Maíz
- Origins: The restaurant is rooted in a mestizaje exploration of culinary traditions.
- Founders' Backgrounds:
- Norma Listman: First-generation immigrant from the East African diaspora.
- Saqib Keval: Immigrant from South Asia, influenced by a multicultural cooking upbringing.
Culinary Inspirations
- Food Memories:
- Saqib shares memories of growing up with his mother’s creative use of leftovers in hard taco shells, blending Indian and African cuisines.
- Norma reminisces about her family’s summer dish, Salpicón, a cold shredded beef dish served on tostadas.
Restaurant Philosophy and Values
- Equity in the Workplace: Focus on creating a restaurant environment that prioritizes the well-being of workers.
- Expansion Plans: Discussing their recent move to a larger location to facilitate growth and enhance worker conditions.
Experiences and Highlights
- Shooting Chef’s Table:
- A surreal experience emphasizing a love story narrative, but also showcasing their staff's contributions.
- They aimed for authenticity and representation in their story.
Culinary Innovations
- Signature Dishes:
- Esquites Macaipaca: A fusion of Mexican street corn and a Kenyan coastal dish, showcasing their unique approach to flavor.
- Terminology:
- They reject the term "fusion" as it can feel gimmicky and extractive, instead embracing "mestizaje" to illustrate their culinary journey.
Community and Cultural Exchange
- Influence of Migration: Discussion on how different cultures influence food practices through migration, emphasizing the significance of shared culinary traditions.
- Local Recommendations: They share their favorite spots in Mexico City that reflect the vibrancy of its food scene.
Aliza's Houston Trip Highlights
- Tacos Tierra Caliente: Known for barbacoa, a must-try with great service.
- Nam Giao: Features dishes from central Vietnam, notably their delicious dumplings and bun.
- Truth BBQ: A prime example of Central Texas-style barbecue with standout brisket and turkey.
- Ninfa’s on Navigation: Celebrated for fajitas and Tex-Mex culture.
- Tiny Champions: Offers a modern twist on American cuisine with standout dishes like fried quail and risotto.
Conclusion The episode encapsulates the culinary richness of Masala y Maíz, the philosophy that guides its creation, and the personal journeys of its founders. Aliza's exploration of Houston illustrates the diverse food scene, emphasizing the cultural significance and communal aspects of dining.
Key Takeaways
- Culinary Intersectionality: The blending of food cultures creates a richer dining experience that honors heritage and history.
- Empowering Workers: Prioritizing staff well-being is essential in the restaurant industry, and growth should also foster personal and professional development.
- Food as a Cultural Experience: Engaging with food goes beyond eating; it involves understanding the stories and communities behind it.
Additional Links
- [Masala y Maíz Website](#)
- [Visit TASTE Online](https://tastecooking.com)
- [Subscribe to This Is TASTE](https://apple.com)
These notes provide a comprehensive overview of the podcast episode, highlighting significant discussions and insights while making it accessible for readers interested in culinary culture and the restaurant industry.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. It wasn't until that one dinner that we threw at a friend's house that we realized all of the common places that our food has. We got inspired. After that dinner, we couldn't stop cooking together and we couldn't stop talking and discussing and dreaming about what masale maíz is today. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbinell. Norma Listman and Saqib Keval are the chefs and co-owners of Masala y Maíz, a Mexico City restaurant rooted in a mestizaje exploration of culinary traditions from India, East Africa, and Mexico. It was great to have them in the studio to talk about creating a more equitable restaurant that puts their workers first, expanding into a new location, shooting an episode of Chef's Table, and their favorite spots in Mexico City.
1:26Norma Lissman and Saqib Kaval, this is Tais. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. You came rolling in with a toolbox full of knives, so you're in the studio. How has your New York trip been so far? It's been amazing. I feel so well-received by this city. Yeah. What have you been up to? We've been really busy. We've been in meetings. We've been meeting a lot of people. We've been cooking. We had a pop-up with Karima restaurant. That went amazing. They're such a talented team. It was such a joy to be in the kitchen with them. Yeah, I can imagine. It must have been a really fun collaboration.
2:05Have you been having any good meals while you've been in town? We have. Yeah, I don't think we've had a bad meal, actually. Any highlights? I mean, we ate at Karima, and that was spectacular. We did their tasting menu. It was really special. and tonight I think we're eating at Kabawa which I'm very excited about. Norma do you have any places that you ate at that you really liked or are those the highlights for you too? We had breakfast at Winsan and it was delicious. I love it. Did you get the mochi donut? Yes we did. That's my favorite thing to get there. I don't know if you had a different standout.
2:40I mean everything was perfect. The rice rolls like fun are so good. We had the pork rice roll with the crispy pork That was insane. I really want to talk to you about Masali Maiz, your amazing restaurant in Mexico City. But before we get into that, I want to give just a little bit of context into who you are for people who are listening. And I'm wondering if you could each tell me a food memory that you have from growing up that you think kind of shaped your point of view in some way. Recently, we've been talking about this more, but I. So my family were, you know, immigrant family from South Asians, from the East African diaspora.
3:17I spent hundreds of years in Kenya and Ethiopia. I was first generation born in the U.S., but grew up in this deep, multiple generation immigrant family with a lot of different cultural influences and migration stories in her kitchen. I, yesterday or was it the day before we were talking about my mom, used to do leftovers in hard taco shells. So good. Growing up, which I was thinking about, like we'd do some type of kima. She would make some type of kima dish or an Ethiopian, like a meat dish or some kithfor, something like that. And then cook it again the next day, the leftovers. Stuff it into these like cheap boxed harataka shells from the discount grocery store with some sour cream and American cheese, like yellow cheese or whatever, shredded and lettuce.
4:14And either some store-bought salsa, but generally it would be some type of chutney, just whatever from the fridge. Every time I think about that, like that is the perfect combination of flavors and textures. And it explains a lot of my love for hard-shelled tacos. I love that memory. Norma, what about you? Hmm. Lately I've been thinking a lot about salpicón and we've been eating salpicón at home because it's hot. Salpicón in the way that my mom prepares it. It's shredded beef, a little bit of cotija cheese, an oregano lime vinaigrette, chipotle, shredded lettuce, tomato, onions. And you put that over a tostada.
5:10And it's a cold preparation of beef and it's delicious. And I've been seeing slowly people doing takes on it. And I've always wondered why people are not cooking it more. We love it. We just had it for lunch last week. And it's something that during the hot months in Mexico was such a treat to come to. I love the sound of that. I've never had it before, but it's finally starting to get warm here in New York. And I feel like I always forget how I want to cook when it's hot out every year. Like my brain goes to like smoothie salad and then I'm bored in two days. So I feel like that's a good one to bring in.
5:52It's so good. I'm curious, like you have a child together. Do you think that cooking for your kid makes you revisit the way that you ate growing up more? Or is it kind of a separate mentality in terms of thinking about what you want to be making? Both. Yeah. I feel like it takes a lot of just planning. Yeah. for his meals and also now like cooking for all this together but to make sure that he and he's a very demanding has a very demanding palate so it's gotta have a lot of different flavors textures different styles of preparations i think when most people say their kid has a demanding palate they mean like chicken nuggets mac and cheese only yours is the opposite yeah and he doesn't like to repeat the same food on each meal.
6:41Or even the next day, you can't feed him the same thing. He gets bored. He wants new, exciting flavors. And like high acid, pickles, strong masalas, chili. He just eats all of it, but he eats. And it's cooking for him. He's, I feel like, definitely our most demanding client. Yeah. But also I think how special that if you guys are going to have a kid, you have a kid who's a good eater and who is an adventurous eater. Yeah. I hope it stays like this. People tell us that it changes. I really hope that would be heartbreaking for me if he was a really picky eater. So far, it's good. I got a couple of weeks.
7:28I was eating en cacahuatado. It was rather spicy with rice. And I served him just rice. And he was like, no, mom. He was just pointing at my plate and ended up eating the enca caguatado from my plate and loving it. So I really hope it stays that way. Yeah. He was at the restaurant with us a while back and he saw the shrimp. They were getting like enormous, famous shrimp with chile morita and vanilla ghee. And he wanted it and he ate it. And I was like, you know, it's got heat to it. It's a strong flavor. But he was just holding that shrimp and just gnawing at it. It was amazing. Yeah, I hope it tastes like that.
8:09That's really sweet. I feel like it must be really special to see this, you know, child that you've created, like eating an iconic dish that you've created, like such a full circle moment. Absolutely. I want to take a step back. I'm curious how you both met and if you remember the first time that you cooked together. We do. Yeah, we actually do. Sure. We met at a friend's restaurant. I was doing some consulting front of the house systems, and he was using her restaurant to throw pop-ups, people's kitchen collective pop-ups at night. In Oakland, right? In Oakland. Cosecha, shout out to Dominica Rice, is doing amazing food and work there.
8:56And he would be very annoying. He would come all the way into the kitchen and just be in the way. I was like, you're cute and your smile is cute, but get out of the way. And a few months after that, another mutual friend invited us to work on a dinner together at the Museum of African Diaspora. I was running the meal and people's kitchen was cooking. and I heard him speak and I saw the work that People's Kitchen was doing and I was like, this is really important work. And we started collaborating since then. Saqib, could you maybe speak a little bit about what People's Kitchen Collective is and was doing for people who don't know about it?
9:48I thought you were going to ask me, can you speak a little bit about why you were so annoying? Why your smile is so cute. That's... People's Kitchen Collective started as a political project looking at the migration of... Well, it was at the intersection of food, art, and social justice. And we're trying to use food as a tool of community organizing and political work. We were and are deeply inspired by the survival programs of the Black Panther Party for self-defense. And we would do a lot of our work trying to replicate and continue work in their legacy. So we do large-scale free breakfast programs.
10:23We would do kind of street shutdown takeovers where we would do large, like long tables in the middle of the street, inviting, you know, community members to come and share elaborate meals together. What we were trying to do initially was look at how we can decolonize the restaurant model and create a dining space that was by the community for the community that celebrated Black and Brown and indigenous farmers and cooked foods from our cultures in a way that wasn't precious and wasn't extractive and was very much rooted in community. At that time, when People's Kitchen started back in, wow, like 2015, 2016, around that time period, there wasn't a lot of these dining spaces that were prioritized, the voices of immigrants, of people of color that uplifted our foods and food stories.
11:14And that was, felt like really important work. It still is very important work, but it kind of fused this world of food justice and food sovereignty and like community organizing with food service and social practice art. Yeah. And it seems like a similar kind of building block to Masali Maiz in terms of the ideology and the way that you want to structure the restaurant today. Yeah, it's definitely a big inspiration for us. But I also think Masalimaes draws from a lot more movements from the global south, a lot more art inspiration, a lot of architecture, enormous background in fashion. Like there's, Masalima is very rooted in Mexico City and the kind of cosmopolitan, very old cosmopolitan nature of that city and how so many different cultures and art movements and graphic and design movements and architecture like have all kind of coalesced there.
12:12Yeah. And I think you both seem like people who are really interested in kind of research and thinking critically about like what is the history of this? Like what future we're trying to build? And I'm curious like how you kind of, well, I guess I never even asked you the first time you cooked together, but what that first time was and then how you kind of began thinking about like what kind of restaurant would you want to have? What kind of project would you want it to be? Well, the first time we cooked together was in Mexico City. We did a meal at a friend's house and we had always been cooking in support of each other's projects.
12:45I was either working with People's Kitchen Collective on events or he was helping me with different projects and cooking my food. And it wasn't until that one dinner that we threw at a friend's house that we realized all of the common places that our food has. We got inspired. There's dishes from that meal, versions of those dishes that are still on the menu at Masada y Maíz today. and it was going to the market and looking at ingredients and talking about where the ingredients came from, how they get to India, how did they get to Mexico, what routes were taking, and how the commonalities between the ways in which we eat culturally.
13:48and that was just the beginning. That after that dinner, we couldn't stop cooking together and we couldn't stop talking and discussing and dreaming about what Masala y Maíz is today. However, when we started, we thought it was going to be a research project between two nerds that, you know, we're starting to go out and this was going to be the excuse to meet in different parts of the world to do research and to cook and have fun. And little did we know then that we were going to end up opening a restaurant and be where we are today. Do you remember any of the dream research trip destinations that you wanted to do before you decided to open a restaurant instead?
14:42Yes, and now I'm bitter that we didn't do it. It's not too late. It's not too late. Fuck this restaurant. Let's go. You're already in New York. Just keep going. I mean, the trip that we had planned that we actually canceled when we decided to open the restaurant was going to Japan. We were going to go cook together there. And it just felt very dreamlike. And then we got offered the space Norma made. And she was like, well, I'm going to open something in this space. And she gave me, what, was it two weeks to move? Two weeks. You have two weeks to decide if you want to do this with me or not. But this is a good opportunity.
15:29And we did not want to open a restaurant. We were burnt out from working in restaurants in the Bay Area. and we had dreams of doing something completely different. I was back in Mexico City. I wanted to work with corn. I wanted to do a small tortilleria that would let me experiment with different processes and use the tortilla like a canvas, but in a more artistic than business kind of way and more research-driven. and... And I was in Oakland still and I had, you know, a lease and a car and, you know, my community there and People's Kitchen was like, after so many years, starting to take off and was becoming more established and had grown and was reaching like the kind of levels that I had dreamed of.
16:26But I could not imagine not doing this with Norma. so I broke my lease, sold the car, packed up the kitchen shifted and took a backseat in People's Kitchen Collective and followed Norma to Mexico City I mean, it just felt so right I mean, yes, of course, we were super in love and we were really excited about it and it felt very sweet but also creatively, politically Like all of it just felt really kind of the right thing to do at the right time. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting to look back on that and see where you are now with so many iterations of the restaurant and a family and all of these other things.
17:15Life comes at you real fast. Yeah. Two weeks goes by and then you have a whole new life. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last-minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea. Aura Frames. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love. And a gift that can be purchased in no time with a few clicks of the mouse. Aura Frames are great. They sent me one to check out and it was really cool and dumb simple to set up. I loaded photos using the app, and it was displaying them instantly.
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18:34That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey.
19:12It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey link in our show notes. I've been really lucky. I went to the maybe second iteration of Masada y Maiz and also Marigold's, the all-day cafe that you were doing. And I think that the collaboration between the two of you is like so evident in the food and the fact that you had like these late nights coming up with all of these ideas and all of that energy. I feel like that energy really comes across on the menu and this kind of exploration of flavor that you're doing.
19:47and you call it mestizaje, right? Like a mixed race kind of combination of India and East Africa and Mexico. And I'm wondering if there are any like dishes either on the menu right now or maybe earlier on that you think kind of really amplify what this exploration is and like what kinds of delicious flavors can come out of it. I think one of the key dishes that is a really great starting point to talk about this is the esquites macaypaca. Mm-hmm. Esquitas is a Mexico street food dish where you eat the corn kernels that are boiled in water with a pasote and onions, and you finish them with cheese, lime, and mayo.
20:32And there's a Kenyan coastal dish called Macaipaca in which you cook the corn in coconut milk with a sofrito that has ginger and turmeric and it has a very aromatic masala. And that those two together are a great example of our food. it's become a very emblematic dish. So we cook the corn kernels. We start them like we would cook a traditional esquite. Then we drain the juice and then move them to the sofrito and add the coconut milk and all of the spices. And we finish them with lime, queso cotija, and mayo. It's a really cool, yeah, it's a great example of our approach to food, but also because it, in talking about mesisahe, it doesn't hide the fucked up history of how corn got to Kenya or how these ingredients have migrated.
21:45It's one of the reasons we don't use the term fusion because fusion feels like such a... Gimmick. And yeah, like it feels gimmicky. It feels cheap. It feels like a whitewashed version of food history. of where like, you know, when cultures come together, it's not always on the best of terms. Like people are forced together sometimes or there's through sexual violence, through colonization, through imperialism, through forced migrations, all, and genocide. Like all these types of things also cause, you know, foods, new cuisines to come about. And the history of corn and that fucked up history of the Green Revolution and how why corn came to Kenya and is not being niximalized, like all that kind of stuff.
22:36History is also in this dish. And Norma does a really great example of contextualizing the politics and history of corn, not just in Mexico, but throughout the global South and how the world consumes corn. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Also, I think fusion sometimes has the connotation of somebody who's pairing things together that haven't been together previously, whereas like there are people who have been in the intersections of these cultures for generations and continue to do so. And it's not like someone is deciding to make like a kimchi quesadilla because it sounds good. It's because like somebody has this lived experience of combining these ingredients and these techniques in that kind of way.
23:15And that proximity, that cultural proximity. And I think like there's fusion that's used in communities of color that are like cooking laterally in society. And we're just because English doesn't have a better term for that mixing cultures they call fusion. And that for me is one thing. But predominantly in the fusion that gets more recognized and becomes more popular is generally like some white chef taking from different cultures where he feels like he found himself or whatever the fuck. Yeah. And and then taking credit for it of inventing a new cuisine. And that to me feels very gimmicky. It feels very extractive.
23:58It feels very cheap. And it feels like you're removing the cuisine from the culture. And that is like the peak of white arrogance for me, especially in our food waste and in our food culture. My kimchi quesadilla example maybe isn't the best one because to me, I think of Roy Choi in L.A. who did cookie taco and he's a Korean chef, but he was living in this Latino community. And so to him, that wasn't him being like, I'm encountering a quesadilla for the first time and I'm going to put this in. It was born out of being in community with these people. Absolutely. And there's an old history of Koreans and Mexicans together, right?
24:31Like that exists. Yeah, I think it's really interesting here in New York as well. I think there's been places like Chino Grande and a lot of the Chino Latino places that have been getting more attention and they are not making fusion for no reason. They're cooking the food of their people in the way that they migrated to Mexico or to Peru, other places in Latin America. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's why we use that term, you know, because it encompasses so much. I think the terminology that is being used now here is third culture. Just what's born, you know, from immigrants sort of living side by side.
25:15Yeah, I think that is the phrasing I've been seeing a lot. And it's nice to see like language continue to evolve as I think more and more people like want to find terms to explain their own existence or to like talk about other people in a more like authentic way. Yeah. Absolutely. And English is a language that is constantly lacking, right? It's so young. Limiting, yeah. It's so young and just so, yeah, limiting. So it's cool to see it evolve like this. Yeah. I'm curious if you see like other restaurants in Mexico City that you think are doing kind of similar mestizaje explorations. I think so.
25:47I think that there's a new influx of people living in Mexico City now. and they're coming with their cultures and they're doing, by default, by living in Mexico, using Mexican ingredients. And as they get comfortable with the culture, they'll start incorporating things into their menus. Yeah. There's a Korean-Mexican couple that have a restaurant called Jo Wong. That's really cool. They're doing really great Korean-Mexican food. They have a version of the food. Esquites, that it's delicious and addictive. Yeah. I love the idea of like a Esquites day where everyone is making like different versions of this dish that are rooted in their own culinary traditions.
26:34Yum. I'm just fantasizing about what I want to eat. So I know that you had a big move, I guess earlier this year or maybe last year when you moved Masali Maiz to a new location. I was curious like how long you've been wanting to make that shift and like what doing that kind of has opened up for you. Well, we were looking for a location space for about a year and a half. We made the decision a couple of years ago that it was time to grow a little bit, that we needed a bigger kitchen because him and I couldn't be in the restaurant anymore. The team was always like, chefs, you got to grow, you're in the way.
27:18You saw that place. It was teeny tiny with magic. And we want to keep growing. And what growth looks like for us, it's to keep learning and to keep experimenting, not necessarily expanding to more locations or opening more masada y maíz, but like having space to grow, you know. and we look for a while until we find we found this location the thing about mazala y maiz we don't want to do night service and that plays with 28 seats that are that it's packed all the time it was very limiting also in terms of economic growth you know it was really hard to give races. It had a low ceiling and super successful, but that's what it was.
28:17So we wanted to add a few more seats because lines were getting longer. Traditionally, Mexicans, we don't make reservations. Nobody wants to make a reservation. It's not in our culture. It's not in our nature. so all of my people and my friends were not able to come to the restaurant because we didn't take any walk-ins and there was just no space and because a place is so small, we needed to make sure that it was packed all the time so we took as many reservations as we could. So there were a lot of factors that influenced us into looking for a location that was a little bit more comfortable, that allowed us to breathe and grow.
29:09Yeah, I think the reservations thing is really interesting because I certainly don't like making reservations either. But New York has become like trapped in this, I don't know, golden box where a lot of the restaurants want to do it and then you can't walk in somewhere. And I think especially for Mexico City, if like most Mexicans don't want to make reservations, but Masale Maíz is a destination restaurant for people who are visiting the city, then I imagine you end up with a lot of tourists in the dining room and you can't really be like meeting your locals and you're like regular demand. Absolutely.
29:39So now we're able to hold tables and we don't release all the tables. So we have room for walk-ins so we can kind of balance that. But the new location also allowed us to prioritize the well-being of our staff in a different way so that the working space is more comfortable. There's more, the kitchen is still tight because there's a lot to fit in there, but it's more spacious than it was. We're able to have more people working simultaneously. But we have now like, you know, staff changing area and lockers and the staff bathroom and stuff that before we just couldn't afford or have. a larger office, we have a private dining room where also the staff meals happen, like all of that for us just felt like a very, like those were our priorities in this growth, right?
30:30It wasn't just that we could have now a bar program or we could, you know, double the seating capacity. It was trying to find like, we are going to grow into what we envision, like this, the, this is the version of Masada y Maiz that we've been looking forward to? And how can we prioritize the design so that it's not just functional, but it's in service of the needs of our team? And it's inspiring. I think that the first Masada y Maiz, we landed, the reason why we opened Masada y Maiz, it's because we were offered a place that had a dining table, had a kitchen, had everything, but we didn't choose any of it.
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31:12The second Masada y Maíz, we did it with very little money and with a lot of limitations of construction limitations because it was a historical building where you couldn't knock any walls or make it more comfortable. So there's a lot of limitations in what we could do with that place. And this iteration, it's finally, it feels like us from a design perspective, from many angles, from everything that he's saying, but also design-wise, I also feel like we're seasoned in what we're doing. We have a point of view with our food, but visual. We found an incredible architect that we worked on for Marigold Nassau.
32:08And we built this restaurant together. He has an understanding of our food, of ourselves. And he was able to put that into the design of the new mazale maiz. There's also a lot of Norma reflected in the design, like Norma's background in design and fashion. Like it's a sexy fucking restaurant. What's an example of like Norma's touch on the restaurant? Literally every aspect of it. Okay, fine. There's nothing that was done in the restaurant that is not a reflection of her like good taste. You both are wearing incredible outfits in the studio right now. So I have no doubt that that is across it.
32:47And I've seen the photos, but I think to probably like be physically in the space and also when it's full of people and in service and it has all of that life, it must feel just so much more of itself. absolutely we are i feel this new energy to be at masa de maiz i feel ignited like i want to be there it's it's effervescent and beautiful and i love the lighting and the sound that's finally good there are so many details we took care of all the details and when and i feel like people enjoy being there, right? Like the food is really good, but it's a vibe to be there and people get excited to be there and our staff are excited.
33:30And we, it feels, it feels like going back to the original, like that feeling that we had in the original Masale Maiz where it was once described as being at a house party. And that's how we designed the space. And that's kind of the feeling that has of like walking through different rooms at a house party. I love that feeling. And also So everyone always ends up in the kitchen at the end of the house party. So it's perfect for a restaurant. Absolutely. I imagine it must feel like a good time to be leveling up the design and the space because you did a really great episode with Chef's Table on Netflix.
34:04And I imagine that probably brought even more attention your way. What did it feel like to be shooting that episode? Surreal. Yeah. It was crazy. It's one of the biggest accolades you can get as a chef. And it was humbling, too. And we decided to go into it with full honesty and to show up as who we are and be vulnerable and have no filters telling our story. They made it into a love story, which I find a little boring. but the result of that is that people are so excited to come to the restaurant and they come with this incredible love and admiration for us and I guess that's something really nice and I am not being cynical it's actually I thought when I was scared when the episode was coming out I was like we're gonna get a lot of hate like I didn't know what to expect TV it's a beast of its own and it has brought nothing but love and good energy to us and that it's very humbling i was really mad because they cut a lot of my uh part on the episode i had to fight for them to put my story they made it at the beginning was like the typical just his voice narrating everything yeah i noticed that i was watching it like last night in preparation and and it was um Like really only in the second half that you got to talk.
35:43And I had to fight for that. Really? Yeah, I wasn't even, that wasn't even part of it. I would have fought more, but then the baby was born and my priorities changed. But I had to fight because, I mean, I don't speak until minute 12 of the episode. And the restaurant, it's called Masada y Maiz, and it's a restaurant in Mexico City. And I am the Mexican chef. But I mean, in that sense, it's, you know, white men with power telling our story. And it's also Netflix. And it was more like, how much do I want to fight? What I do love about the episode is the fact that we were able to push for our team to be forward and to decentralize as much as we could our image as chefs and to really show the importance of the teams behind restaurants.
36:46And I feel like the episode did a good job of that. And our team, I feel like, really rose to that occasion. They did so much work to prepare for the filming and so much work to make sure that the research behind the dish, the ingredients, like all of that, everyone was on the same page like that. I feel like made a big difference to them as well to see themselves reflect in that way on the show and to see their work. Yeah, to be celebrated in that way. Yeah, I think it is definitely portrayed as a love story between the two of you, but I think also a love story between the two of you and the team of people that you work with.
37:25And especially in the very end of the episode, I think there's a lot of kind of highlighting of the staff and showing them like being able to take over the reins as you two are making time to have a baby. And I think that is very apparent, which is nice. But it's so corny, the love story between Norma and I. There's so many shots of like looking into the distance. Me and the holding hand. Yeah. Incredible hats walking through a corner field together. Yeah. I mean, at least it's better to be known for loving each other as opposed to that couple that's like, why are they working together? They clearly hate each other.
37:57Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. We've all worked with those couples, too. Yeah, absolutely. Especially in the restaurant industry, I feel like. And the outfits were really good. We looked really good in that. You looked really good. Do you feel like guests come into the restaurant now and they want to get all of the dishes because they've seen them on TV and they're kind of like hoping that it looks exactly the same? Absolutely. Yeah. We also get a lot of people that come and just want pictures of the dishes that they saw in the episode, but they don't actually eat them. They just come and do Instagram photos, they do a post, and they bounce.
38:31Yeah, the new wave of tourism in Mexico City, it's crazy. It's people following a list and wanting to, they come and don't eat. They'll come to the restaurant and they'll have two dishes from the Chef's Table episode and that's it. They can't eat anymore because they have to, a taco tour or the other restaurant on the list that they have to cross. It's really infuriating, to be honest. Yeah, because they're going to all these places and they're not engaging with the restaurant or they're doing like multiple tasting menus in one day. Right. Which is wild to me. So they're not really enjoying the food or eating it well or taking the time to appreciate whatever restaurant they're in.
39:16They're just trying to check the boxes. And that feels kind of also very imperialist and very like, I mean, distinctly American to go and like, I need everything. I need to prove that I had everything. I need to conquer the city, like that kind of vibe. which is, it just feels very disrespectful to Mexican food and Mexican culture and Mexican dining and that legacy. Yeah, and I think one of the best parts about Mexico City is how there's good food everywhere and you can just walk around and, you know, be kind to people and try a lot of different things. Exactly, and just come back. Yeah. We're going to be there.
39:51The city's going to be there. The delicious tacos are going to be there. And just take time. Take the time to enjoy whatever you're doing. And I have to say not everyone, but it is like every turn, we do three turns and every turn, probably 15 percent of the people act like that. It's crazy. I just think about what my mom would say if she saw me like not eating food in a restaurant. Like that's like you clear everything on the plate kind of mentality. Or that you only I mean, they eat it, but they will only have two dishes. They'll come and they say, I want the samosas and I want the shrimp. And we go.
40:33I just want a taste. Because they want to cross it off the list and do the next thing. And they want the Instagram. Yeah. Do you think being in Central, does that help at all? The fact that you're not in Roma Norte area anymore or not really? Yes. I mean, we love it. We love being in Central. But I mean, I don't think it makes a difference on that of how people interact with the restaurant. But it does make a difference of now the community that we're in and being able to have a little bit of separation from the main tourist hubs. Yeah. It's also it is a place that tourists should go. It's such an incredible neighborhood and there's so much incredible food and architecture that I guess if people are going to go to Masale Maiz, cross it off the list.
41:18Hopefully they're able to do other things in that neighborhood as well. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit about your dreams for the future of Masalia Maiz. I know that you're here in New York because you're working on a book. I'm wondering if you would want to share a little bit about what that would be like. I'm really excited. We have a book coming out in 2026 with Penguin Random House as part of the Clarkson Potter imprint. And it is going to be our classic dishes from the restaurant and also a lot of the stuff that Norm and I cook at home. And it's basically this approach that we have with Masala Maiz for the home cook.
42:00And what I'm most excited about it is that the recipes fucking work. Like going into it, our goal was to create a book that people would feel successful with. So the recipes have been tested and retested and tested specifically for the home kitchen and adjusted. And they're not like dumbed down in any way. They're not, you know, trying to simplify the recipe for the sake of simplification. Like they're solid recipes that you'll feel really good about cooking and you're going to get the same type of flavors and the same type of dishes that you would have at the restaurant. But now for you to cook at home for your friends and family.
42:42Not the same type. The same dishes. We're basically adapting the restaurant recipes to home cooking. But it's exactly the same. We're not holding back. We're not keeping any secrets. for actually giving you the secrets in the book. It just makes like four servings instead of 20 or whatever. Absolutely. I'm really excited about this. I feel like this is going to be a book that is going to be in the best way, like stained and like beaten up a little bit in my kitchen. That's all I hope. I'll be flipping through it. It has a lot of narrative too. There's a lot of essays in the book. There's a lot of political essays, historical essays.
43:21a lot of our point of view also woven into the recipes. I mean, I would expect nothing less on it. Is there anything else that is coming up for you or is the book the big project? I think the move was the big. It was huge, yeah. It was huge. And then now the book. And part of the move also made us hyper-focus on the restaurant. all of a sudden there's a demand that something different from us. It was a level up, having also a better kitchen. I do feel that the food is better, you know, and we are now wanting to spend more time at the restaurant, coming up with new recipes, testing our tandoor oven, like growing, like this growth that I'm talking to you about, But it's this growth that when we talk to our team about the growth for the restaurant to grow, we need each individual present in the team to grow, including us, and to be excited about that growth.
44:36and there's been so much like i mean that's the like the physical growth that we've been doing but i feel like internally the push this level up is all has been at the same level of bettering our systems bettering our structures more investment into the well-being and quality of life of our staff and pushing for like the type of coaching work that we do with our team and the type of personal development work, like that growth, the individual growth that Norma's talking about doesn't happen on its own. It's something that we as the chef owners or Masale Maiz as a business is prioritizing to bring in resources to make sure that our staff are able to level up and feel comfortable and confident and feel celebrated and are scaled up for these positions.
45:26I love hearing all of that. and it makes me even more excited to come back to Mexico City and try the new version, the new iteration of Masali and Maiz. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumiere, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story. The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restauranteurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate.
46:06World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus. The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes?
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48:01And to close today, I want to play a little rapid fire game with you. So I'm going to ask you some questions. You're going to have to play some favorites. Just give me the first answer that comes to mind. Okay. Your favorite item on the menu at Masali Maíz right now. Shrimp. Suadar samosas. Those are both two of my favorites, I would say, from my last trip. Your favorite late night snack? Quesadillas. Tacos de suadero. Your favorite ice cream flavor? Corn. Pistachio. Corn ice cream is so hard to find, but it's so good when you find it. Your favorite street food spot in Mexico City? I'm not going to tell you.
48:45Catalina. Street food-ish. Yeah. Northern Mexico, La Tonina. Your favorite bar in Mexico City? Tlican. Same. Your favorite bakery in Mexico City? Saint. Saint. Okay, finally, a fictional food scene, like from a book or a movie, something made up that you wish that you could magically eat in real life? Not in that way of eating it would be so wonderful and pleasurable, but the way food is written about and talked about in Octavia Butler's parable series is fascinating and inspiring to me. Spirited away when the parents are eating at that night market. Like turning into pigs. Turning into pigs, yes.
49:33Everything in that market. I think Miyazaki is the crowd favorite response and nobody has ever said Octavia Butler in all the times I've asked. But I love both of these answers. Because it's very bleak. Yeah. But I like that you can see the beauty in that. And thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been so fun. Thank you so much for having us.
49:55Eliza, we are back. We haven't seen each other in a long time. Yeah, we've been traveling. We've been traveling. I was in Spain. You were in Houston. You're going to tell us all about your trip to Houston. Your first trip, correct? My first trip to Texas. No shit. Which is crazy. I don't know how I have gone my life without being there. Definitely my first time in Houston, H-Town, as I kept calling it to the chagrin of all of my Houston friends. But I was with—people do say that, but, like, not tourists. Not tourists, yeah. I had a great time in Houston. I think going in, I was definitely soliciting a lot of recommendations from people about food.
50:30And I think Houstonians are really proud of their city and certainly really proud of the food scene. And so I went in with a lot of expectations and I left feeling like I ate consistently so well. I love to hear that about Houston. And I think it's so cool that your first trip to Texas was in Austin because I think a lot of east west coasters, they always go to like South by. But I unequivocally before you left, I was like, Houston is my favorite Texas city for food. It's an incredible city. So tell me about it. Yeah, I want to run you through maybe some of my favorites from the trip. The first meal that I had in Houston was just a phenomenal start.
51:01My friend Danielle recommended this combination of tacos and then an ice house, which I don't know. Have you been to an ice house in Texas before? I think I may be. Are you talking about the Alabama Ice House? I've been to that. Yeah, that one specifically. But an ice house in general is this kind of indoor-outdoor style of bar that's very known in the Houston region. I think they have to serve a lot of beer on ice, and that's where the name comes from. So we went to the West Alabama Ice House, which is very legendary. They've been open since 1928. and beforehand we went to this taco truck that was just right across the street i think most people probably know it as like the taco truck by west alabama ice house but it's called tacos tierra caliente and they do barbacoa which i love and is harder to find in new york because i think people don't really have you know the space to be doing full slow roasting barbecue in that style way um it was delicious i love it i've been there for both it's incredible place so good the woman working at the taco truck was incredibly kind.
51:57I ended up chatting with her for a while. She gave us more tacos because it was our first time in Texas. And she was just so kind. And we ended up having to give some of the extra tacos to a stranger at the bar because we couldn't eat all of them. But they were so good that, you know, couldn't let them go to waste, had them with like a really nice frosty Lone Star beer. Good way to start. Quick question about Texas tacos or Houston tacos, you know, did you going in, you obviously know LA tacos really well, but is there a difference to the style of taco in Houston or at least? Yeah, I think there's probably a couple of different things going on.
52:33I think certainly flour tortillas are more common in Texas because it's closer to the region of Mexico where flour tortillas are more popular. Also, just barbecue in general, obviously, is so big in Texas. like barbacoa is, you know, a traditional Mexican style of slow roasting meat. So I think the fact that like they have space to do barbacoa in Texas, I knew that would be a big thing. And I had a lot of flour tortillas, I think, the whole kind of trip because I knew that there would be a lot of good ones there. So tell me more. OK, so Vietnamese food, another huge thing I think that was recommended to do in Houston.
53:05They have one of the biggest Vietnamese populations in the country. we went out to little saigon and went to a place called nam giao which is a restaurant in a strip mall which the la and me always feels like is a good start uh and they serve food from hui and central vietnam they have something specifically called bambat look that i wanted to try which are these clear chewy tapioca dumplings that have shrimp and pork belly and they're steamed in a banana leaf they actually have like a sampler platter trio of three different kind of squishy savory tapioca dumplings and banana leaf that we got and we also got bun which is like that really rich, tangy rice noodle soup, lemongrass, shrimp paste, a couple kinds of meat and sausage going on in there.
53:45That was awesome. And then afterwards, we went to a place called Linda's Tropical Fruit, which is nearby. Oh, wow. Separate strip mall. They do smoothies, fresh sugar cane juice, cut fruit, all of these things. But we specifically went because I saw on Google Maps that they had wax apple there, which is this fruit that I really loved when I was in Taiwan and Thailand earlier this year that is really hard to find here in the U.S. we bought Matt like a four pound bag of wax apple because it was the only quantity in which they would sell it to us. For the hotel. It was like an unreasonable amount of wax apple to consume so I was kind of giving it away to people.
54:20Did you burn out a wax apple by the end or do you still have the deep love for it the same? I still love it but you know it wasn't quite obviously it wasn't quite as good as when it hasn't been transported around the world but I was really excited. I know that feeling when you buy a large quantity of something that you really covet and then you have the first one you're like oh, I just bought a lot of these. Yeah. I mean, I was excited about it for sure. And it was fun to give it to friends who had never tried it before. But, you know, I would still recommend going here. Also, just like the smoothies and the juices that they do.
54:47Sounds amazing. Super good. I had to go to barbecue. I went to Truth. Have you been to Truth? I never went to Truth. No. Tell me about it. Truth is like, I think, one of the most common recommended ones when I opened up my DMs and asked people. And they do what they say is Central Texas style barbecue. I have not had enough barbecue in Texas to know what specifically that means. But it was very delicious. We got, you know, all the good things, brisket, smoked ribs, mac and cheese, potato salad. They do Brussels sprouts that have the jus, like meat poured on top. Super good. And also like a corn pudding.
55:18It was like a crazy lunch to do because then I just needed to take a nap afterwards. Yeah, it's probably like Hill Country barbecue outside Austin, that style with the beef brisket being the main one. Yeah, yeah. And we also tried the smoked turkey, which was not something that we ordered. But I was chatting up one of the guys working the barbecue line and he gave us a sample and said, this is not something that most people order. But I think it's one of the best ones. And it was like incredibly juicy, tender turkey, which I think is like not something that I've normally had before. Definitely not.
55:47I think the smoking is the best for turkey. We're getting ahead from our Thanksgiving conversation. Yes. It did make me wish that I had the ability to smoke a turkey for Thanksgiving. For Thanksgiving, exactly. Which is like my uncle does in L.A. when you have the weather for that. Two more that I want to recommend. Cool. The original ninfas on navigation. You went. I went. Yes, that was like my wreck and I was like, you gotta go. Yes, I went with our friend Jesse Sparks. Yes. And we had like the most joyous reunion over margaritas and queso and fajitas. They're known for originating or at least introducing the U.S.
56:18to fajitas. They have the best slogan of any restaurant I've been to, which is the best Mexican food since Texas was Mexico. That is like so good. It's perfect. we got stick fajitas obviously queso for the table it was right before pride night at the Astros game which is right near there so the dining room was full of people with like rainbow pride like baseball hats on who were going to the game which I had no idea was happening and I was like what's happening here? You're like did I just like what am I walking into? Right it was awesome they even have a like a Neemfuz branded shuttle bus that would drive people to the Astros game from there.
56:58I have been there on a game day as well. What I think about Nipah's is the quality of the beef. Yeah. It's just it's so tender. They just do such a great job. And obviously, it's a great Texas beef they're working with. Yes. And also, like the Texas style portions was not something that I was ready for before coming. Like, I was like, should we order more? And it was, you know, plenty. Yeah. And then I had a kind of like more of like a Brooklyn restaurant style of meal at this restaurant called Tiny Champions. You went for the Brooklyn style restaurant meal. They're probably, if they listen, they probably wouldn't like me saying that.
57:32They would love that you said it. No, because it's like Texas, but they do like the new American style. There's a restaurant called Nancy's Hustle that was very highly recommended as like the place to go to. And then Tiny Champions is their offshoot that does pizza mostly and pasta. And my friend Danielle, who used to live in New York, but is from Houston and moved back there, said that it was her favorite restaurant. And we went together and we just kind of feasted on all these really delicious salads. Like they had a cabbage salad with pistachio apricot agrodolce and pecorino that I really liked.
58:02We got fried quail, which is like a big Texas thing apparently, which was so juicy and delicious. And they served it with like fancy ranch is what they said and hot honey. We had a really nice spring pea risotto with pickled onions and mint. And it was kind of bright green when it came to the table. So that was all really good. And then I have a bookstore that I wanted to recommend. I love it. One less non-food rec. These are such great picks. I'm happy you had a great time in Houston. I mean, I had more meals, but I think these were the top ones. But as someone who, you know, when I say I travel for the culture, like food is always one of the main forms of culture.
58:36And I think, yeah, Houston has it on lock. And I totally get why all of my Houston friends wrap it so hard. The bookstore is called Basket Books and they have a really great cookbook collection, but also a lot of like local zines and fiction and events and a gallery space upstairs. And it's definitely a bookstore that if I lived in Houston, I would spend a lot of time at. I guess the bonus rec, the last thing I will say is that I was there for this event series at El Dorado Ballroom and Jones Hall and these other locations in Houston that Solange was curating. and the El Dorado Ballroom is a really special cultural space in Houston.
59:15And they have a cool bookstore downstairs and they also have a restaurant downstairs that I didn't get to eat at because of timing, but I was kind of widely recommended as a good place. And they have an oxtail burger that looks really good. So I think if people are visiting Houston, going to El Dorado Ballroom, going to that bookstore and going to this restaurant, I think it would be really fun and I would be curious how it is. And you got to see a salon show, hometown show. Yes. She wasn't performing, but it was a series that she curated. She curated it, right. And at the Jones Concert Hall, it was like a night of black female composers.
59:49And some of her work was being played by the orchestra as well as like some other composers. And she, you know, came out on stage and thanked everyone for being there. And the noise volume in this, like Jones Hall, I don't think there's ever been applause as loud before, which was really special. And honestly, I can't wait to go back to Houston. Well, thanks for sharing your Houston recs. I'm definitely going to book a trip there soon.
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From the publisher
Norma Listman and Saqib Keval are the chefs and co-owners of Masala y Maíiz, a Mexico City restaurant rooted in a mestizaje exploration of culinary traditions from India, East Africa, and Mexico. It was great to have them in the studio to talk about creating a more equitable restaurant that puts their workers first, expanding into a new location, shooting an episode of Chef’s Table, and their favorite spots in Mexico City.
Also on the show, Aliza shares her first visit to Houston! What a town. Stops included: Tacos Tierra Caliente, Nam Giao, Truth BBQ, Ninfa’s on Navigation, Tiny Champions, Basket Books, and the Eldorado Ballroom.
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