620: Hailee Catalano Shares Her Hearts For Chicago, Red Sauce Classics, The Jersey Shore, and Rachael Ray

26:36Yeah. And that was like maybe a year and a half to two years that I did the coffee videos. And then after that amount of time, I was like, oh, I know how to film. Like I feel more comfortable like with it. Because I would start to do voiceovers with those. So I was like, okay, I feel more comfortable. I feel like now I can like do what I really want to do, which is showing food and stuff. So I started with, I believe I started showing my breakfast here and there. And then I made pasta one day and then it just like. Like a rigatoni? Yes, like spicy, like vodka, pasta, pasta, yeah, anything, which I didn't know at the time was trending, which I guess it was trending.

27:11And so I think it got like 17 million views or something. And then that's when I just like really started gaining followers on TikTok. It's amazing that you tell this story about how organic it was. And I mean, this is really the start of like cooking on TikTok. Yeah. This like 2020, 2021 zone. It's like the platform is so new and it's mostly known as a dancing video platform and other things. But like food had not really like broken out fully. Yeah. And like you are one of the biggest voices, you and Chuck, on TikTok. and it's maybe not. I mean, you're being modest, but it's amazing that it starts that way.

27:52Yeah, just, yeah, one video can really make it go crazy. I feel like, yeah, I always think like, yeah, how did that happen? I don't know how it happened. I don't know. Yeah, it's weird because I just, I was like, okay, well, one pasta video did good. So then I just started making a bunch of different pastas. And then I really gained like probably like 500 ,000 followers within a couple of weeks just from that. I mean, so you're not like doing growth hack stuff. You're not thinking about strategy here. You're not. There's no agency helping you. At that time, no. Not at that time. No. Which is why I love it so much.

28:29Because I think we spoke with many who kind of started at least their public facing careers on either TikTok or Reels and YouTube. And you hear the story almost time and again. I mean, it has to be organic and it has to be from someone who actually has worked in restaurants for seven years. Yeah. Not everyone. I want to be fair. Like there's people who are amateurs who have not professionals who have done amazing work. Oh, yes. Of course. Yes, yes, yes. But like there's something about the restaurant chef taking those skills and then bringing it to the mainstream. I appreciate that. Yeah. I feel like, you know, there's so many.

29:05Yeah. It can go either way. I don't know. I think the algorithms, they're just, they're crazy sometimes. Yeah. If the algorithms was on your side. Yeah. And last TikTok question. I mean, what's going through your head? Because you admit that you're a shyer person. You're not the extrovert of some TikTok creators. But then you're getting these millions of people commenting all sorts of crazy shit. Yeah. What's that like mentally just having that parasocial relationship with your following? Yeah. Yeah. Well, when it first started happening, I was just like, whoa, this is so crazy. Like, I don't even know what's happening.

29:40Like, I'm just like when you first like kind of like read these comments and stuff, it doesn't really feel like that it's like actually people, I guess, you know, and then you kind of become like it's like, is this really a person? But then it is people. It is people. So it's kind of crazy. But always like for me, thankfully, I feel like I get a lot of positive reinforcement, which really has helped me continue to do it and make give me more confidence to like, you know, talk to the camera more or like show my personality more. So it is it's been very helpful in that case. Yeah, because, you know, now if you if you view your videos today, you're fully facing the camera.

30:18Yes, which is weird for me. Yeah. But not anymore. But like I never thought that I could ever do that. And I do attribute it to like, yeah, people supporting me. And without them, I would really have nothing really. No, it's amazing. Yeah. It's a great story. I want to talk about the cookbook. We often are talking to authors before their tours or New York can be often the first stop on a tour. But we're recording this when you just wrapped this tour for the most part. And I want to hear about it because like you're meeting all these people that know you. They love your videos. It was they know you, but like they've never met you.

30:56What's that like? What are those exchanges like around the country? Well, in the same way, it's like it was for me just very it was so great to finally meet people because for however long I've been doing this, it's all, like I said, just me reading comments. And, you know, it's people, but it's like means so much more when you meet people. And like you can see that, like, you know, people care so much, which is so like so nice. And like I can't even like thank people enough because it's just like I never thought people would be so like connected to it. And it just it really makes me like really appreciative as of course I am.

31:29And just like it helps me to want to like continue to do it because it does seem like it's having a positive response from people. And yeah, I feel like that was my the best part about the book tour for me was meeting people and like talking to them and hearing their like even just like a little story about like, oh, I made your yada yada. and like now I make it all the time. Like that's what I hope people get from it. Just like small traditions that make your life a little bit more happy. Yeah. Did you have a favorite stop or two? Yes. Well, I like it all because I can't choose and everyone is so sweet.

32:03But I did really enjoy San Francisco very much. I hadn't been there since I was quite young. So I was like, it was nice to go back. And then everyone, yeah, just like such a really great crowd there. I was like, oh, really, really nice. What else? I feel like, oh, in San Francisco, there was a lot of places I wanted to eat. Yeah. But everything kind of closes at nine there. Uh-huh. It's definitely early in the West Coast. It was kind of hard to get a place. But that's why I want to go there again, just separate of it, because I was like, I really, really like it there. Where else? Austin was really fun.

32:36Yeah. That was really fun. We did First Light Books. Have you been there? Oh, I haven't been there. Yeah. That's a really, really nice place. Yeah. And we had like a little they had like a whole like kind of party outside. Oh, fun. Yeah. It was like so cool. But yeah. Oh, it was also great to go home back to Chicago. I'm like, I see. I liked it all. The whole tour was great. But just connecting with with folks because you don't have a restaurant, right? Right. You don't have a place to hang out with with people. That is what I miss. Exactly. So that this was it filled a little bit of that like missing like the human connection that I feel like I used to have much more when I worked in restaurants.

33:12you know like talking with people that ate and stuff yeah um and we did some like restaurant pop-ups which was also very fulfilling yeah you can actually get get work the line a little bit yeah well i didn't really work i will be on it but i prepped i know i've done plenty of those with my books and it's it puts the chef in an awkward interesting spot because you're not really running service but it's your stuff yeah but we had like a whole prep day have you been to la sida in la no i haven't oh it's so good you got it yeah i don't know it it's filipino yeah Yeah. You got to go. But they're like the best crew.

33:41Like we had a whole prep day the first day. It was just so fun like to be back in that environment of like, you know, when you work in a restaurant, it's like the camaraderie. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And it was just like, I really miss that. And they're just like also sweet. So that was actually another really big highlight of the tour. That was Bob. Yeah. So you write in the book that the pandemic happens when you and Chuck were possibly thinking about opening a restaurant. Is that something that you are still considering? Yeah, I would still love. Well, my whole goal, I guess I forgot to mention that, too.

34:12Like when I first started my TikTok, too, I was like, oh, if I start this videos, maybe I can like manifest having this small cafe that Chuck and I want. That's why my name was Cafe Haley for some time. Yeah. But anyway. Yeah. You're manifesting it. You're like this version of me online is going to become this cafe. Yes. Like a small, like very like, you know, just a small place that did some little seasonal foods. Sounds like the Chicago place. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That was such a formative place. And then I would still love to do that. I just feel like it's maybe more of like a 10-year plan now.

34:45Which would be great. I would like love to like, you know, transition into that. Yeah. Maybe in a 10-year type span or five, depending. That is so smart. Yeah, I would love to do that. I mean, not doing it now. Respect to my folks in the industry. It's very hard. It's hard. And to realize it's not something you can just turn on overnight. Yes. Yeah. I feel like I want to, yeah, when I feel like very, like I really want to do this now. It has to be like a really, yeah, it has to be a really perfect time to do it. Because, yeah, it's so hard. It's like your whole life, obviously. It becomes your whole life.

35:20Completely. Yeah. And it's, but maybe one day. For now, pop-ups. Pop-ups, more books, video, live in life. Yeah. Travel. Yes. Not working, not baking the bread at 6 a.m., 4 a.m. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just making the bread at home. Yeah. Well, I got a bunch of questions about the book recipes because many of them speak to me. I love the way they're written. And one is this maple cheddar snack mix. Oh, yes. Love that combination. Tell me about what inspired it. Very cool recipe. Thank you. Well, I wanted to make something that's kind of like Garrett's. I've had Garrett's in Chicago. Of course. Shouts to Garrett's.

36:04Garrett's. Legend in Chicago. So good. So good. And they do the Chicago mixes cheddar and like a caramel corn. And then I was like, how could I make this into like a fun snack mix? And I was like, I don't really want to make like a whole caramel. Because like caramel corn is kind of hard to make, especially at home. Especially if it's a component in a thing. Yes, in a bigger thing. Yeah, I was like, what will caramelize without having to make like the caramel and then tossing everything in it? And I was like, maple. Because maple caramelizes quite well in the oven when you roast it. So I was like, or put it in the oven.

36:33So I was like, oh, maple cheddar is going to be delish. And it has the caramely notes. Cheddar has a car. I mean cheddar. Maple has a caramely flavor. So I'm like, and it came out good. It was really, it looks like a gray and it's pretty quick too. Yes, it's quick. And then even if I put cheese powder on the end to get the cheesiness, of course. But also I've noticed, and Rebecca Ferkzer, shout out. She tested the recipe. She made it with nutritional yeast on the outside. Same effect as the cheesy powder. So. Shout out to Rebecca Ferkzer. Yes. Love her. Best on the show. Definitely. Oh, yes. She's the best.

37:05Yeah. Love her books. And it's cool that you worked with her and testing. She tested all the recipes for my book. I was like, that is like so much respect for so many recipes to do in it. Like, you know, not that long of a time. To dial them all in that way. Yeah. So how did New Jersey, the fine state, inspire your love of antipasto and this recipe? Yeah. Growing up, we didn't eat a lot of like antipasto salads like that with like all the meats and stuff in it. I don't know. It just wasn't something we ate. But New Jersey, when I went to New Jersey, the pizzerias, they all have antipasto salad.

37:40So I was like, when I noticed that was a trend on menus, I was like, I want to get one at everyone we go to because I want to know like what people are doing with their antipasto salads. And it became a fun thing to try. And yeah, then I was like, these are so great. A lot of them are so simple. And like, I feel like there's probably just vinegar put on it. Like it's not tossed or anything. It's just like vinegar and then oil on top. and it's simplicity is nice that's also what taught me like not all salads are good when you toss them you know like when you go to like culinary school they'll teach you like you have to dress the salad in this sort of way but actually i feel like a lot of salads are better if you just kind of like lay them out more flat and then you don't toss it at all because it's like sometimes you wilt things when you toss it and then you just put the dressing over the top of the whole platter and it kind of seeps down and it's like evenly dressed without having it be so mushy, if you know what I'm saying.

38:35It's a great tip. I think we are so married to the bowl for salads. Yes. I think it's such a bad thing. But use a plate. Yeah. Not in every case, but in most salads, I feel like it should just be on a platter. Platter, salads. Yeah, because also serving it too. Yes. Especially if it's going to be presented at the center of the table like a bowl would. It's so hard. And then with the platter, you get all the toppings across the whole thing. Nothing's sinking to the bottom. So that's why I plate it on a platter. Yeah, good tip. Okay. Your mashed potato recipe is very interesting. Thank you. You add chicken fat to it, which I think is something that I've never really thought about.

39:10I've only thought about either olive oil or butter, but to use schmaltz in it is very cool. Yes, thank you. Yeah, I got that idea from, I was like, I want to just put something crispy on top of mashed potatoes. And I was like, oh, chicken skins would be good as a thing on top of mashed potatoes. And then I was like, oh, but that would be perfect to put the chicken fat, obviously, in the potatoes, because you've got to render the skins. You already have the fat. You put that in there. And then you got these lovely schmaltzy mashed potatoes with a little crunchy top all in one. And I think it's fun.

39:42And it's like a nice, I don't know, like if you're having something more vegetably on the side, then you have like mashed potatoes that are like meaty, which I feel like is cool because usually it's like the opposite. It's usually just a side. Yeah. And this is like more of a significant side. Yes. I can think about like holiday time, Thanksgiving, et cetera. Going for the holidays. Yeah. How are you getting the chicken skin and rendering the fat? Is there like a tip there? Well, I put a little water at first in a cold pan. I usually say to use like a nonstick. This is my only time to maybe use a nonstick because it can get stuck.

40:14So a little water, the chicken skin, cold pan, turn it on, and then you just low, like let it slowly render. The water evaporates, but all the fat comes out, and then you have all the clear fat, no water left, and crispy skin. And you can use the crispy skin on the top. Yes. Use the schmaltz in the potato blend. Yes. Brilliant. Love that tip. Thank you. That's great. Well, you're obviously a breadhead. I mean, this bread section is very cool. Thank you. And what new ideas are you bringing to bread baking with this book? Yeah, I included a sourdough crash course type thing just because I wanted it to be like, again, kind of like teaching people how to make just a basic sourdough loaf.

41:00without it maybe being too terribly intimidating. Because I feel like sometimes sourdough comes off really scary because it is kind of hard and it is a recipe that is definite or a method. I wouldn't say it's a recipe. Method, yeah. That it's like it does take trial and error. And I feel like we just need to tell people that it's not going to work maybe like on your first one because you have to like get used to it. Like working with dough, time, temperature. but it's not that you failed at it it's just that it's actually you're actually not failing even if it comes out bad it's like this is part of the learning process permission to fail yeah i'm hearing that yeah yeah like when and it's like such a fun way to learn it at home instead of like when we were learning it in a restaurant it's like if you mess up eight loaves 12 loaves of bread it's like really scary you're behind yeah the day is not going to be so great yeah but like if you're at home it's like you could still use that bread as croutons you could dry it out You know, it's not like detrimental.

41:59Sourdough doesn't have to be scary. And that's why I wanted to put like a crash course vibe in there. And people have been making bread and it's been coming out good. I've been seeing the pictures. So you've been seeing people cooking from the book. Yes, yes. That's also very fulfilling. I'm like, yay. Yeah, people are actually cooking from it, which obviously was going to happen with your following and just in general, the great book. No, thank you. But you never know. What's the big hit right now? What are people making a lot of? A lot of the roasted strawberry rhubarb sundae with pepita sesame crunch.

42:26Wow. Because rhubarb's in season. Oh, yeah. And that's a simple recipe, too. And it's a nice dessert, like feels kind of fancy or whatnot, but very simple. Also, you can prep it ahead, which is nice. So where is your audience? I mean, do you have like an area that you feel there's a concentration? Can you figure that out? I'm really curious. I well according to like the book tour I feel like San Francisco might be my biggest yeah because that was where the most people came so maybe San Francisco which I would never have guess actually when we went to the pop-up we were heading over to the pop-up in San Francisco we did this pizza pop-up I was like Chuck I don't know if anyone's gonna come because I had that was like my first like doing a pop-up like on the west coast type thing yeah and I was like I don't know if anyone's gonna come like it wasn't a ticketed thing so it's like you have no idea but a lot of people came to that so i'm like oh maybe i do have a following in san francisco so maybe san francisco i think also new york and i think chicago i think that's what i'm seeing yeah probably those three those three so all over the country really interesting yeah because i feel like there's probably audiences everywhere yeah i think i think i think everywhere oh a lot of new jersey yeah yeah represent of course well i love the the the recipe for the the moose pie oh yes It's Chuck's birthday pie.

43:50Yes. And please, that's my birthday pie because that's absolutely in my wheelhouse. And I love that you shout out Baker Square. Yes. You know Baker Square. I do. I do. Growing up with family in Chicago, of course, I went to Baker Square. Yeah. The best I remember. I honestly, what's so funny about it, I don't remember like the savory food that they had there, but I knew you would get your meal and you always got a slice of pie at the end. I know. Isn't that the best part? That was the best part. That's all I remember. Do you remember what kind of like savory food that maybe it was just like diner vibes?

44:17I felt like it was definitely an elevated Denny's. Okay, yes. That's what I'm remembering, too. Like club sandwiches. You could definitely get some burgers. Yes. Like the salads. I mean, it's kind of like a proto-TGI Fridays even. Yes. Maybe a little bit of—but it felt very Midwestern. And there were so many restaurants like that growing up that were just American food restaurants. Yeah, it was very much American food. But yeah, that was my favorite part was getting the pie, and I always got the French silk pie. Yes. Which I thought everyone knew about, but not once I moved out of Chicago. Like Chuck did and I was like, oh, I'm really craving a French silk pie.

44:50He's like, I don't know what that is. I was like, let me make it for you. And then that became his favorite pie and hence his favorite birthday pie. Take us through it. What's in it? Well, the one at Baker Square is like a more of a like a buttercruise, like a traditional pie crust. Then it's like chocolate mousse and whipped cream and usually like shaved chocolate on the top. But for the one in the book, I did a press in like cookie crumble type crust just for ease. And actually, I love, actually, I love like a crumbly crust, sometimes more than like a flaky crust, like a graham cracker. Those kind of crusts.

45:26Oh, completely. Especially when we were working with chocolate. Yes. We were working with lime. Yes, exactly. Those like creamy fillings. Creamy fillings, yeah. Yeah, so I did that. And then I made a chocolate mousse, but then I infused it with a little bit of Earl Grey for a little bit of a tea. Oh, cool. I like that spin. Yes. I love chocolate and like bergamot. So that flavor is really nice. and then have a little honey whipped cream on top to go with the tea vibes. What a pie. What a pie. I love that. I'm going to make that one. Yes. I have your book now. Oh, yay. You got to let me know how it goes.

45:57So you live in the Jersey Shore. I have to like shout it out. I love. Shout out. My sister-in-law runs a fantastic restaurant called Franny's. Yes. In like the northern part of the Jersey Shore. I feel like the Jersey Shore doesn't get enough respect for its food in Asbury, that area. Yes. It has some great restaurants. This is the section of the interview to shout out the Jersey Shore. Okay. Yeah. I love. Yeah. Growing up in Chicago, I never was like, let me live in New Jersey. Like I never thought I was going to live in New Jersey or like the only thing I knew about the Jersey Shore especially is like the show.

46:30MTV. Yeah. So I'm like never pictured myself. Seaside Heights. Yeah. The grind. That dates me a little bit. I'm a little bit older. No. That's what I'm thinking. Like the grind is filmed at Jersey. Yes. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I never thought I would live there or like enjoy living there. But I really feel like it's really such a lovely place. Like you can obviously go to the beach. There's so many nice places other than like Seaside Heights is nice in its own right. It's a different vibe. Definitely. It's a nice place. Yeah. But it's like, you know, there's so many calm, like not party, like beach towns on the Jersey Shore.

47:02You can get back to the city very easily. Also, a lot of farms. Like New Jersey has everything. Beach, farm, can get to the city, pizza. It's good. You just said it all. The farming in New Jersey is some of the country's best. Hands down. Yes, right? Absolutely agree. And so I feel like a lot of people don't think it's the Garden State. There you go. They say that. So, yeah, I really enjoy living in New Jersey. Always like, yeah, there's always. Have you ever been to Grand Tavern? No, I haven't. That's a really good restaurant in Neptune, actually. In Neptune. Yes, they make a really, really good burger.

47:36It's like American food. Best burger and martini on the Jersey Shore. so I love that I mean I know the pinball museum at Asbury oh that's so fun I go a lot it's so fun and there's a lot of ski ball in there too a lot of ski ball a lot of pinball it's a great stop yes I hadn't gone until like last year because I just never thought to go in and I'm like oh my god I'm coming here every day really really fun spot to like catch up on those vintage machines it is fun I love this conversation and we're going to be live at the Bell House on July 23rd yes that's coming up I can't wait I can't wait You chuck me on the stage?

48:11Yes. Chatting it up. Chatting it up. I had to plug that. Tickets are on sale. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes.

48:51Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. Butcher Box is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety.

49:26There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure-cooked with water and apple cider vinegar. It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste.

50:14Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited-time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you Haley, on This is Taste We Asked Guest About Their Asserting Taste So to close this interview Here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check Are you ready? I'm ready, oh dear The best fruit? Mango Yes I love a mango The worst vegetable? Brussels sprouts Why? Oh no! I cannot do a Brussels sprout anymore After frying so many Brussels sprouts Like working in a restaurant Oh, a tall day, yeah Every restaurant I've ever worked in There's always fried Brussels sprouts And I just, the smell of a fryer with the Brussels sprouts will really never make you want a Brussels sprout again.

50:59What is it about the fried Brussels sprouts that works so well in a restaurant menu? Everyone gets them. Yeah, everyone gets them. People love them. I used to love them until I had to make them so much. Yeah. I think it's, I don't know what it is. Usually it has some sort of sweet sauce or something. Yeah. I think it's the sauce. It's really, it's a good vessel for sauce because all the nooks and crannies. What is your typical breakfast? Usually it's just some sort of version of two over medium eggs. I like an over medium. Do you like over medium? I like an over medium for sure. Yeah. I like over medium.

51:29Over easy can be a little bit hard to like negotiate. Yeah, I agree. I know. Over medium is so particular, but it is good. And then lately I've been having it with, oh, some smoked trout and kimchi, which I know sounds wild, but it's a good combo. That's my latest one. What is the best dessert? Best dessert? Oh, tiramisu. Nice. Yeah, I love a tiramisu, which I wish I had one in my cookbook. I'm like, why did I forget that? There will be more books, I imagine. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Bar Marta in Chicago. It was, do you know Hog Salt, the restaurant? Yeah, it was someone that used to work in that group and they opened a restaurant.

52:07Very delicious place. Chuck used to work there. Oh, okay. So there's a little bit of that connection too. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Culver's. Yeah. I wish there was Culver's here because other than that, I don't know. Oh, Popeye's. Yeah. Those are great choices. Those are absolutely wonderful choices. I fully stand behind both of them. Thank you. Thank you. Great stuff there. A couple more. Favorite city outside America to visit for food? Melbourne. Yes. I would love to go back there. Yeah. Eat more. I went there in, that's when we took our little brief vacation or thing.

52:41Research trip? Yeah. I forgot what year. I don't know. Yeah, when I went there, but it was very cool. I want to go there again. I forgot what year. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Honestly, it's just like a turkey provolone, like classic deli, you know, iceberg, tomato, onion, oil, vinegar, oregano. Nice. Yeah. Oil, vinegar, no mayonnaise. No, I'm not a mayo on that kind of sandwich person, but I know people are and that's fine. People are. That's fine. No, I love that choice. Yes. Haley, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thanks for having me. This was great.

53:20David Neyfeld, welcome to This Is Taste. It's really great to meet you. Yeah, thank you very much for having me here. I'm excited for this conversation. I went to Kefiko in, I think, February. I talked about it in three things. Such a highlight of my great San Francisco trip. San Francisco is on fire right now. It really is. You know, I feel like as a city, we're having a major glow up. We have an incredible new mayor in Daniel Lurie. We've got a lot of new things happening. The city has gotten cleaned up. It's really in a growth phase right now. I think a lot of companies are coming back to the office, which is super important for restaurants, right?

53:56And I think San Francisco is just having a moment. It's a vibe. I agree fully. I'm going to link to the episode in the show notes. And we'll talk about your work with the Independent Restaurant Coalition, which you co-founded. Really important topics. This is going to be a great conversation because we got a lot to cover. We're not going to go back to 13, but we're going to go back to 19. Sure. Walking to the kitchen at Nobu in Tribeca. Wild. I mean, wild. I read that and I was like, we got to talk about it. What's it like, like just walking into this kitchen and really being super young, but clearly ambitious?

54:27Yeah. So first of all, I just want to give so much praise to Nobu Matsuhisa, who, you know, is a global brand. And a lot of people don't recognize this, but when I was 19, this is 22 years ago or whatever it is, you didn't go to your local sushi restaurant and get hamachi with jalapeno and ponzu. You didn't. But today, good luck going to a Japanese restaurant anywhere in the world and not getting that. That is something he brought to the spotlight. Same with miso cod. Miso, cod, like all of these tempura, popcorn, shrimp, all of these different things that now are ubiquitous did not exist. And so his unique background of being Japanese, spending time in Peru, marrying those cultures, bringing them first to L.A., right, because that's where his first restaurant, Matsuhisa, was, and then to Nobu in Tribeca.

55:25It was truly a mind-blowing experience to taste those foods. And I remember walking into that restaurant and just being enamored with flavor. The flavors were out of this world, textures that just crunch and pops and acid and sweetness and fattiness and umami. And all with like Japan as the root, which is not what diners were seeing, as you noted. I mean, you've got like a fish program that's traditional, but you've got texture and acid and jalapenos, for God's sake. Right. Well, and so you take that element and that kind of depth touch in terms of flavor and you marry that into a Drew Niepren restaurant.

56:13Right. So it's fun. It's exciting. It's the who's who. The service is great. It's a vibe. And then all of a sudden you're in the kitchen. You're tucked away in this little kind of corner because it's a New York kitchen, really small. And these bad ass motherfuckers. We can go there. We can go there. Thank God. Right. Yeah, yeah. A judicious use of the motherfucker. I really wanted to send it. You sent it, yeah. And then, so here's the thing, right? You had these cooks there, and, you know, today, I think an underappreciated station is the fry station. And when I tell you there was a fry station at a restaurant like that, there was, I mean, two to three fryers, right?

56:53you had everything was uh lined around the fryer so none of the tempura batter got anywhere and the tempura batters would be getting exchanged every hour so that way they were cold and perfectly uh frizzant that's expensive that's expensive and crazy and so like just something like that and then imagine this you're there you're tucked away in a corner you're trying to keep up with the i wasn't even a fry cook right i was the assistant to the fry cook switching out batters and things like that. And if I was lucky, I'd get to clean the fryer with a spider. And then all of a sudden you get a pat on the back and you're like, hey guys, how's it going today?

57:32And you turn around and it's Bobby De Niro. That's what being in that kitchen was like. That's crazy. I love that story. So you're at EMP. You end up working with Joel Robichon. And you open in Las Vegas. And I was just at a chef conference last week and Eric Repair was having a conversation. And he literally said on stage that he still has nightmares about Joel. Like today, the man just passed years ago. He still has nightmares like Derek Rappare. You worked intimately with this chef, and I'm sure you have many thoughts and emotions about working there. But I have to ask about opening in Vegas with Robichon, what that's like.

58:12Being 25 in Las Vegas was an incredible experience. There was a lot of things that I got to see. And look, the thing about that restaurant, which will never be ever again, right? Like at least for me in my career is money didn't exist. The concept of money didn't exist. I remember them bringing in what could have easily been$10 ,000 of Kobe flat iron beef and Paragord black truffles to work on a dish. So what they were doing is they were studying the inside of the flat iron Kobe beef with black truffles all the way through and then to cook it sous vide. And they must have tried 15, 20 different temps and everything like that to ultimately present to Mr.

59:06Robichon and for him not to like it. And basically the rule was like if Robichon didn't want to see anything, there was nothing that should be on the counter. So when he walked into the kitchen, nothing could be on the counter. When I say nothing could be on the counter, Matt, salt can't be on the counter. Oil can't be on the counter. Any of your cooking tools, they all had to be hidden. Everything. When he walked into the kitchen, he wanted to see pristine. Perfect. Yeah. And so when you worked in that restaurant, there was a lot of things to you that seemed frivolous. We made jokes about like, oh, yeah, like, what does he think we don't cook with salt or oil or something like that?

59:47But what you took away from that experience is you took away what the mentality was. And the mentality was whatever it looks and feels like ultimately will be what it is. Right. And so if I send everyone in this room on a mission for perfection, what we will achieve will be that much closer to perfection. Whereas if we start from a place that is a couple steps, you know, hey, I accept this. I accept this. I accept that. Well, then what you will ultimately get is a few steps back from perfection. And that's the thing that I took away from that. And look, the nightmares and all of that stuff, it was a different time, right?

1:00:25As I like to say, it was the 90s. Like when I grew up, people are like, your parents let you do that? Well, it was the 90s. So look, when we think about restaurants like that, hey, it was the 90s. And when Eric Rupert worked at Le Germain in Paris, well, it was the 80s. So, you know, you add to the 90s plus some cocaine. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly a point taken about that. And like it was an era when you pay dues and you clearly strove for perfection. And I think about the eel dish out of Robachon. Tell me about your experience, the eel foie gras dish. You know, such a phenomenal blend of flavors and textures, right?

1:01:08But like there were so many different elements in that restaurant and that Mr. Robichon had in the repertoire, right? Like everything from the tomato gelée dish with the, you know, thousand dots of basil and tomato, which, you know, the funny thing is I was thinking about this earlier and I started thinking about some of the elements in that restaurant. And a lot of people don't realize that probably the most important thing to Mr. Robichon above anything and the way he viewed the kind of pursuit of perfection is consistency. So a lot of people didn't realize that the tomato dots there, the main component, the main ingredient in that component was Heinz ketchup.

1:01:48Because what more consistent ingredient could you get in the world than Heinz ketchup? He wanted every dot to taste the same. The potatoes for the most famed potato dish in the world, right, came cooked in a bag. They came cooked in a bag. Now, people might be like, oh, so you didn't actually have to cook them. No, I'm telling you, to take those cooked potatoes and then to do a two to one ratio of butter to potatoes, to whip those things into submission, into fluffy delight, right? It was a talent. It was a technique. And I can't tell you how many times I broke that potato dish, which is funny, right?

1:02:26Because I wrote a cookbook called Dad, What's for Dinner? And you go to the mashed potato recipe. It could not be further from that. You're not doing 50-50? No, no, no, dude. I got to live, man. I have a cardiologist listening to this. I mean, 50-50 is how I go at Thanksgiving. But you have to put a little note by it if it's a buffet style and say, like, just go light. So it's funny, right? Like I, as a chef, and I was talking to my brother about this yesterday. I was talking about, like, that phase of being a chef where you just know enough to be dangerous. So you know what you know, right? And so you in your mind, you're like, everything is Robochon style potatoes, Robochon style potatoes.

1:02:59But as you get older, you start to think about things on your own and you start to have an independent thought process. So when you look at the cookbook and the mashed potato recipe in the cookbook, most chefs will look at that and be like, this is so strange. This is the antithesis of a chefy mashed potato recipe because first of all, I go back to using russet potatoes. Why do I use russet potatoes? because russet potatoes will yield you the fluffiest, not the most luxurious, not the densest, not the most creamy, but the fluffiest mashed potato. And so when I'm eating something like meatloaf, like the recipe for meatloaf in the cookbook and I make mashed potatoes, I want a fluffy light mashed potato.

1:03:36So I'm not putting a thousand grams to 500 grams of butter to potato, but I'm putting a few nubs in there and I really like it to be fluffy and airy. So it's funny, like as you go through your career, you work for Joel Robichon, you work You work for EMP. You work for all these different places. And then eventually you kind of free yourself from the shackles of everything you learn because you're not – now you don't know just enough to be dangerous. You know enough to be independent and think on your own. Yeah. I think we have to talk about Cape Vico's menu because it's really interesting. It speaks to me.

1:04:08I think you really make a commitment to honor Jewish, Italian, Jewish, Roman cooking. And I just – I love the menu. You have Star of David next to Jewish dishes on your menu. And I really appreciate that you're highlighting this cuisine that there's been some terrific books about it, written about it recently, and it's starting to get more attention. But for our listeners who maybe don't know about this tradition in Rome, tell us a little bit about it. First of all, I want to shout out someone who probably a lot of people have not heard of but should, Joyce Goldstein. So when you talk about books that have been written recently, right, you cannot forget that there is a whole plethora of incredible writers who are writing about Cucina Ebreca and, you know, Cucina Povera and the different and the Jewish cuisine of Italy and the diaspora, you know, 20 plus years ago.

1:05:04Right. And so when I started my research for, you know, doing the menu at Kefiko, you know, I derived a lot of inspiration from those books and those recipes. Obviously, I was traveling to Italy three to four times a year. I was trying to soak up as much time as I could. But for me, what I really wanted to do was I wanted to tie an element of my identity to the restaurant. Right. Like I love Italian food. I'm not Italian. I love making pasta. I went there. I spent so much time learning, but that I never had a Nona that I learned to cook from. So for me, what was important was to tie my own identity to this.

1:05:41The other thing that was really important for me is to show on the menu the pride of Judaism, right? And the fact that Judaism is one of those things that it's like a lot of people, they have a sense that Judaism is a religion. It is an ethnicity as well as a religion, right? A lot of people like me, frankly, are not incredibly religious, but their ethnicity, right, is very important to them. And to be able to bring that to the forefront and have people understand how we weave ourselves into a culture even 2000 years ago and how that's come out and become a part of everyday culture with the suplia telefono or the, you know, the karchofia le giudia or the different dishes like that, right?

1:06:26to me is a huge sense of pride. Yeah. And you're articulating them brilliantly on the menu at Cape Fico. When you're researching it early on, I want to go back to the author you mentioned, because I think that's cool. What are the first few dishes that you're doing? What are you really trying to specialize and really bring to the restaurant? Yeah. So I remember, you know, a lot of when I was reading Joyce Goldstein's book, you know, a lot of it was about tertiary cuts. A lot of it was about vegetables that were challenging to work with, right? And so one of the interesting things is like you think of a vegetable like artichoke today, right?

1:07:04And it's such a luxury vegetable. Well, if you were a Roman person of nobility, you're not dealing with that. You're not peeling that shit and dealing with the spiky stuff. No, that was for the peasants to deal with something. Nobility wants soft things, easy to eat things, right? Let the peasants have the thing that, but today, right? Coaxing an artichoke into the most perfect, acidulated, soft, slightly kind of, you know, fennel-flavored, beautiful ingredient. It's like one of the most fantastic things that I wait for every single year. The other thing are the tertiary cuts, right? The scarata di mercati, which is like the the waste of the market, the trash of the market.

1:07:50Back then, the Jews were only allowed to buy things that the Romans didn't want, right? So they got the scotch de mercati, right? Like the offcuts, right? So you got offals. You got different elements like that. And then also the other thing is that Jews were only allowed to have certain jobs. Certain jobs like shmata, being in the shmata business. So you could sell like cloth, right? You could loan money. So you could, you know, different things like that. So for me, learning about those things within whether it's books or going to the Roman Jewish ghetto and to learn about the history, all of those things are ways that I weave in dishes into our book, right?

1:08:31into our restaurant, the Cape Fico's menu and Cape Fico's menu to me. You know, a lot of it is about taking California and the Bay Area specifically and. Ideating what the cuisine of Italy would be like if the Bay Area were a region there. Very cool to articulate that way. Very, very cool because it's hard to do. It is really, really hard to do. Well, they're very different climate wise. Well, they're very different. Right. But you do have certain similarities. Right. You have a coastal area, but you also have mountains. You have both dairy and you have olive oil. You have, you know, so you have fish.

1:09:07You have animal husbandry, like in some of the most incredible animal husbandry practices around in terms of the agriculture. We have incredible, you know, when there was a time. So you talked about our salumeria, our charcuterie program. There was a time in our salumeria, which is one of the only state certified salumerias in the state of California. You're not doing it like after hours and hiding it in your walk-in. No, totally. This is in the dining room. Yeah, I love it. You walk into our dining room at Cape Fico, you see an entire salumeria on. It's not done, David. It just isn't done. Well, it isn't done also because that room could have been three more four tops, right?

1:09:48So you think about that. So the investment of that. So there was a time where we had eight breeds of hog. I want you to hear that. Eight different breeds of hog, which we were making different things out of in that Sola Maria. So when you talk about paying homage to a place, you have to do so with the things you have kind of near you, right? And if you have those type of ingredients at your fingertips, why not utilize those things in the best way that you can? Let's talk about the book, Dad, What's for Dinner. I think you see these books come and go, these cooking for family and various results.

1:10:31Mileage may vary. But I think what you've done here is really special because you're speaking to your daughter in the book and you're talking about her needs and the needs of somebody who's young. but you're using obviously your intellect and your interest in food ways. But still, with all that said, it's hard to do because, you know, to like say this is a book for children, for kids, but also interesting for adults, it's just not done. And I want to first ask you just in general when you started writing this idea out as a proposal, what did you want to do and what didn't you want to do? I want to push back on one thing.

1:11:12The book is not for kids. Okay. The book is meant to bring families together. It's meant to bring people together. It's a book about connecting. And so for me, I felt like so much of my journey as a dad has been, you know, how do I connect with my daughter? Right? I'm not good at arts and crafts. My schedule is all over the place. I am not your typical incredible archetype of a dad or a mom or a parent. What I do know how to do is I know food. I know food intrinsically. I know it in my fibers of my fingers, right? People ask me about touching meat and knowing when it's done, putting your finger in a boiling pot of water to taste it and taste if it's salty enough.

1:12:06All of those things in the most visceral way possible. That is my love language. I want to see people smile through creating food for them. Now, for my daughter, I desperately wanted to be an incredible dad. That's all I wanted to be. I wanted to be an incredible dad more than I wanted to be a great chef. And when I realized that, that was when I realized that that was like truly what my identity was. My identity was being a dad before anything else. And so when I was writing the book, I went through different seasons in my life. At first, I started in the pandemic, which nobody ever wants to talk about again, thank God.

1:12:44And, you know, I was basically learning the fact that everybody was having a hard time in the kitchen and getting food on the table. Everybody was at home. And now you had all these meals you need to get on the table. OK, so that's where it started. Then I was going through this really challenging custody battle. and I would not have a single overnight with my daughter. I'd have to drive one hour to go see my daughter and I would only get two hours with her and then I'd have to drop her off and then I'd have to drive an hour back. And I had to feed her dinner in that time. And this was like a test that they give you because you need to prove that you are worthy of being your child's parent.

1:13:28and so and it wasn't and and it was one of the most humiliating things I'd ever gone through which because for me I thought it was inherent like this is my child I should have the same right to her as her mother does but that's not the way it was and so to me it became a test a test of how much do you how much conviction do you have in being the father that you say you're going to be. And so for me, I would spend hours boiling a soup, getting everything ready, making a ragu, a pasta, whatever, and packaging it for her. And I only got one shot at it. There was no, hey, you don't like this? I'll make you something else.

1:14:11I would drive an hour to see her. I'd pick her up from preschool and we'd go play at a park. We'd play for 30 minutes. Then I'd put her in the back of the pickup truck and I'd feed her dinner. People would be walking by me looking at me like, Like, why are you feeding your child in the back of a pickup truck? And, you know, and that was just my life during that time. And to me, it was so important to nail it. I wanted to nail it. And so I remember those moments where I'd watch my daughter eat something out of a thermos, like a soup that she loved. The ones that like really stick out to me are the Jewish mother's chicken soup as well as the sausage kale Tuscan soup that both recipes are in the book.

1:14:54And I remember how much she loved it. I remember being proud of myself because she was eating protein and vegetables. And all of those things as a parent, when you watch your child consume, it's a strange thing. Like it's almost like you're looking at them and you're watching them charge up. And you're like, I've done my job as a parent because the thing that's inside my child is nourishing them right now. So then the next season of my life happens and I finally get an overnight with my daughter. And she's in the other room and I'm preparing dinner. And for me, like everything is about like you want to be perfect.

1:15:28You want to nail it, right? And, you know, kind of newsflash to everybody out there. There is no fucking perfect. You fuck everything up all the time. As a chef, I mess everything up all the time. There's a story in the, remind me to tell you the story about the pancakes in the book, but I'll just finish this little quick anecdote is, you know, the first night that I have her, I'm just sitting there. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I only get her for one night. I'm going to spend time in the kitchen cooking. I'm also not going to order Domino's for my kid. How do we connect? She comes in the kitchen.

1:16:03and together we started making every single thing together. We started, she'd cut the vegetables with her little plastic knife. And you know, at first as a chef, you're looking at the knife cuts and everything's just getting mangled. It's driving you a little crazy. Yeah, it's tough. It's driving you a little crazy. But that's also a lesson to be learned, which is like, who cares? Who cares? What are you trying to get out of this? Dinner, yes, done. Time, spent together, connectivity. You and the being that came from you are together and you are making life's memories together. And that is truly what this book is about.

1:16:39I want to give you license to bring your family together, to spend that time together. And so in the cookbook, am I trying to give you the most esoteric recipes? No. I'm giving you the best fucking meatloaf you've ever had in your life. I'm giving you some tips on how to make great simple things like soups and brownies and stuff for the bake sale. And as my daughter likes to call them, cuppy cakes. I got to tell you the story about the pancakes. Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask. So there's two different pancakes in the book, and people might ask why. is because I have this very chef-y version of a pancake, which we call the lazy weekend pancake, right?

1:17:18And it's involved and you've got a, you're frothing - How many grains are on it? No, no, it's a, well, like it's a whole wheat pancake, yes. But it's about like, you're frothing the egg whites and you're adding vinegar to impact the pH balance and everything like that. Completely impractical for your everyday parent, right? And so that, but that recipe is so good, it makes the best pancake I've ever had. But when I met my fiance, Vanessa, she had this hack for making quick pancakes. She would take like the Bob's Red Mill pancake mix. Yeah. And then she would chef it up herself. She would put some vanilla bean in there and some cinnamon powder and some this and some that.

1:17:57Into it. Things that were not in the – and then she would also crush up a banana and fold it in. I like – that's a great mix, by the way. I like Bob's. It was incredible. And so it was a way, A, to get a little bit more nutrition in there, a little more flavor and everything like that. It took five minutes before you were cooking your first pancake. And then so for me then I was like, okay, well, I wonder can we do a little bit more? Can we add a little protein powder to this mix and different things like that? And so what I learned was, hey, like also remember that this book is for the practical parent also trying to – look, breakfast is the hardest meal of the day in our house, right?

1:18:34My daughter is abstinent. Breakfast is just not her meal. She doesn't want it. And so for me, I like end up just forcing her. I'm like, you're eating something before you leave this house. So we can do it. Is Go-Gurt cutting it? No way. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Dude, she might. I didn't think so. Like I can make her something like a omelet with the crispiest, most beautiful bacon and fold it in with cheddar cheese. And the omelet is so perfect. She'll have it one day and it will be the best thing of her life. And she's like, daddy, I love this. This was so scrumptious and yummy, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum.

1:19:08The next day she looks at me like I've got six heads because I made her the same thing. She's like, omelets, I don't like omelets. I'm like, are you fucking with me right now? And so kids, look, first of all, they're terrorists. It rings very true to my niece and nephews. But you can't negotiate with terrorists is the most important thing, right? Like what's on the table is on the table. It's great. I want to ask you about Joshua David Stein and working with him. I had him in about a year ago, and a guy's working on like six, seven books, like lots of great books. I love his work, and he's been in many times.

1:19:39He brought up your book. I mean, he just was like David Neyfield's book. Like, it is so good. He just loves working with you. I'm speaking for him, but he said this. And I have to admire his love of a collaboration because I think that they're very challenging many times. And I have to recognize that he's one of our best collaborators. What's it like working with Joshua on this? Joshua was a very specific person that I wanted for the book. He's a dad. He's a single dad. He, you know, he's adjacent to our industry, right? Like he understands the mentality. I didn't even know how many parallels we had, right?

1:20:27Like both of our kids are half Brazilian. We, you know, like I wouldn't be speaking out of school because we've talked about this publicly on my podcast before. But like we both have had troubled troubling challenges with co-parenting. You know, we both do Brazilian jujitsu. We both have an element to us of conflict in our personalities of like we're constantly in conflict with this idea of the kind of whatever you want to call it. whether it's the warrior in the garden or like whatever that kind of manifestation is of the person who wants to roar and battle. And then the person who wants to be the more kind of philosophical kind of intellectual person.

1:21:19Right. And there is that battle. There's that constant tension and friction. And so I chose Joshua and like I was really grateful that he decided to do the book with me because what we ended up making together was something that I really felt resonated because he got it. He would be in car rides with me. And I'm telling you this and look, like, I'm kind of telling you very personal information here, right? We'd be in the car and I remember my daughter would say something. And for purposes of legal purposes, I don't want to say something that would be kind of impact my court case. But my daughter would say something to me that her mom would say.

1:22:03And I'd look at over him. I'm like, did she just say that out loud? And he would look at me and he's like, dude, like that is wild. Because I remember going through the same exact thing of like feeling like you were being alienated as a parent. And the truth is you're, what are we all trying to do? We're just trying to raise our kids in this way where we negatively impact them as little as possible. We arm them with as many tools and traits as we can, but we harm them as little as possible. And look, every kid is going to have some harm that you don't – you accidentally – and good. It gives you something to tell your therapist when you grow up, right?

1:22:49No one's ever going to have anything to write a book about if they didn't go through something. But I remember sitting there and just thinking, like, thank God there's someone here. Because I don't know that someone would believe me that this is being said if somebody wasn't here. And I'm so grateful to Joshua for being there. Because it was a really challenging moment in my life, right? Like, it was a challenging moment. And this book, Dad, What's for Dinner, you know, even in the title, it was not an accident. That title to me meant everything, right? Because a lot of people might ask, well, why call it Dad, What's for Dinner?

1:23:27Why not be more kind of inclusive or whatever? It's like, well, because in my house, it was Dad, What's for Dinner. Yeah, it's the story. Like that was the only choice. Yeah, it's your story. I mean, this is why it's a unique project. And really, again, these books come and go, cooking with children, cooking for children, and putting a lot of your own story into it is absolutely powerful and created a great book. Before we close, you co-founded the Independent Restaurant Coalition and an important organization. and I just wanted to check in about 2025 and just like ask, and I've asked other folks, chefs and folks who work in the industry.

1:24:09We have a lot of diners, a lot of restaurant goers, a lot of fans listening to the show. How can they be great diners and how can they help support your industry? Yeah, so here's the thing. I think we as the restaurant people need to remember and be cognizant that diners are not there for us. And it's not about like, and I think during the pandemic, we got into this idea of like, hey, like, what can you do to be better for us? And the truth is that ended up biting us in the ass because the second that all the diners got over the, hey, let's donate to restaurants for them to keep them alive. Let's buy their merch.

1:24:52Let's buy their mixes. Let's buy their non-alcoholic whatever. At some point they realize, hey, I'm spending my hard-earned shekels on these places. And they're acting like they're doing me a favor by being here. Let's not forget, we are here to delight. And so what I want for diners is just enjoy. You come and enjoy. You eat the way you want. You want the well-done steak. You ask for the well-done steak. I don't want to encumber a diner to feel like they work for me. I am there for their delight and for their enjoyment. Now, the thing that I would ask the diners to consider is this. Do you eat out too much to the point where when you go out to restaurants, are you not delighted anymore?

1:25:38Has it just become an afterthought? Cook more at home. Take the time to spend with yourself, with your family, in your kitchen. Spend more time cooking at home because then when you come out to my restaurant, you will be truly delighted by the fact that someone took your dish for you. Someone washed your dish for you. Someone brought a dish to you. Someone wiped your table. Someone took care of you. You've been looked after. Then that experience will be magical for you. And then you'll pay the bill and you'll enjoy. And all of the things that I think we mixed up throughout the pandemic in terms of like who's here for who will go back to being correct.

1:26:21I'm happy you flipped the question. I really am Because I think it brings up a great point. There's a before time and there's an after time. We're in 25 and we're well beyond that era. And especially with inflation and prices going up as they are. And menu pricing becoming a topic of great debate. That we have to realize that dining less and dining better is an ethic that will help everyone involved. I mean are there too many restaurants or are there too many seamless orders? When you say like dine less, I'm not saying who's the culprit. But what part of the industry is maybe failing there? Look, my family came here from the former USSR.

1:26:59So as someone who is, I'm the first American born in my family. I believe in capitalism to my core, like hardcore. So free market, you know, that's what I believe in. So is there too many restaurants? The market will tell you. People will go and they will spend their dollars where they choose. and then they will spend them again where they choose. And when they get great value, that's what will happen. Unfortunately, what ends up happening is some good restaurants die. Now, a group that I think can participate in maybe a more productive, collaborative way is food journalism. I think that food journalism can play a part in making sure that great restaurants continue to be written about in their seventh and eighth and ninth year.

1:27:53To me, there should be a list of incredible restaurants that are five years old, six years old, seven years old. That should be a list that comes out of an incredible magazine, right? Because then you're telling people like, hey, we wrote about this restaurant five or six years ago or hey, it missed our radar. We didn't see it. But when you want to see restaurants that are truly thriving, that deserve and need the attention, talk about the five, six, seven, eight, nine year mark. Right. And so are there too many restaurants? Not for me to say the market will tell you the market will spend its money where it wants.

1:28:31And look like life happens. Right. Good restaurants close sometimes. And that's just is what it is. Yeah. It's a tough industry. Margins are where they're at. And I think many publications do this. SF Cron and as well as New York Times have done their top hundreds and those in L.A. Times. And they cover restaurants that are not just new, but historical. But also I think and I brought it up many times in the show, maybe two times, is that I think in the prior point about journalism and media, I think that there needs to be more critics that are funded and there needs to be more investment in criticism and not just the new, but covering the in like covering the city and covering multiple reviews a week in publications like The New York Times.

1:29:15because it's a public service for the restaurants, for the industry that is so important to the city to actually fund these independent writers to go out and actually dine and dine anonymous and actually say what's good. And hopefully if they're doing the job right, they're going to find some year five, year six, year seven restaurants to write about for their large platforms. Yeah. How can government help restaurants? Now you're talking about it. Well, I've talked to, we've talked, yeah. I've talked to us a lot about payroll tax. Right. So now you're talking. So government has a major role to play.

1:29:47So I think government can do a lot there. Now, look, there's a debate going on whether tax on tips is the thing. You know, I think I really think is important that we recognize service charges as being should be a part of that. Right. Because I think a lot of restaurants are trying to make a leap away from tips. We all have heard now like the fact that like tips have a past with, you know, paying under the minimum wage or different things like that. I don't want to get into that. What I do want to recognize is we all do it differently and that government can help because why should they help? We employ more people per square foot than any other business in the country.

1:30:32We are the largest, I think the first or second largest private employer, if you tally all the restaurants, in the entire country. The diversity of people that work in restaurants, you've got college, people who are in the middle of college or master's degrees. You have formerly incarcerated people. You have newly naturalized citizens. You've got people who retired from a career and just are looking for a way to stay busy and stay engaged. You've got high school kids with their first job. You have career servers. You have people who, you know, view this as a metier, right? Like and they want to work in this industry their entire lives.

1:31:09The span of different kind of, you know, demos that work inside restaurants is incredibly important. Then you break it down to the amount of taxes that we provide for each metro and for the states and all of these different things like that. We keep the employment going, right? All of these things are super crucial. Now, what I think can be done is for us to start doing things like, you know, trade schools, giving people free money for trade schools. Also, maybe also like to me, like the internship or kind of, you know, what would you call it? Like before you're 18. Right. Yeah. Those types of I think a program like that, like a mentor mentee program.

1:31:53if we could find kids who are 15, 16, and they're like me, high school's not for me. I'm not going to go to college. I barely am going to get out of here. How can the government say, great, we need you to have a skill. So what we're going to do is pay half your salary. We'll pay half your salary. The restaurant will pay your other half. And all we need to do is show that you're going there. You're doing the 40 to 50 hours a week. You're going to the farmer's market. You're learning how to butcher. You're doing all these things. Guess what happens in two years? You've got a high school graduate who has a skill.

1:32:22They've got a way to contribute, right? That's a different model than just paying for trade school. I think actually giving the restaurant half the salary is a brilliant idea. Yeah, totally. What about payroll taxes? Look, payroll taxes are excessive. We have gotten to a place where we think that small businesses in general are the piggy bank for our lives. And we forget the fact that for every tax we impose on these small businesses. They don't just disappear. They manifest in the price that you see. So when you start going to a restaurant and you're like, why is everything so expensive? Well, look at all the costs, right?

1:32:57You have electricity going through the roof. You've got insurance premiums, which have gone up 60 % in the past three years. You have in California, you have payroll, which has gone up exorbitantly, right? You have taxes, all of these different things. So the government can play a major role here in improving the economy, securing these restaurants, which are super important in a number of different ways. Also, think about this. Every time you look at a challenged neighborhood, a neighborhood that a lot of crime is happening, a neighborhood that a lot of kind of like bad behavior is happening, what do you see?

1:33:32Boarded up windows. Exactly. You see boarded up windows. Restaurants keep neighborhoods safe. Restaurants keep neighborhoods engaged, safe, vibrant, beautiful. And then if you ever meet a small business owner who didn't sweep the front of their store, why do they do that? The sidewalk's not theirs. Point of pride, right? Give these people a little bit. You give them a dollar, they'll turn that dollar into two, right? And they will be one of the best investments you can make. Yeah, I love the sentiment. Had a great conversation with Camille Marcus about this recently and other chefs. She's incredible.

1:34:06Incredible. Both of you are. I think this is an important topic. We'll continue covering on the show. David, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much for having me.

1:34:20This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.