622: Basque Restaurant Blowout: The Good, The Bad, and the Pil Pil with Max Shapiro

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. The prices in Spain, and especially in Basque, are shockingly lower than anywhere else. I got a wine at Echabari that would be probably$1 ,800 or$2 ,000 on a wine list in the States for 200 euros. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rothbard.

0:59Today on the show, I welcome him Max Shapiro. He's co-host of the terrific podcast Air Jordan, and he just returned from northern Spain. We talk all about it. Max has such a mind for fine dining, and we go over all of his discoveries, what he liked, what he didn't like. It's a terrific episode. I hope you enjoy it.

1:20Max Shapiro, welcome to This Is Taste. You just returned from Barcelona last night. How are you? All things considered, I am fine. My body isn't in shambles like I thought it would be. So that's a positive. Well, I appreciate you taking the time. I wanted to have you on right away. I followed you during this recent journey. Barcelona is where you started, but you went north to San Sebastian in the Basque region. And I just have to say, Max, you're the co-host of Air Jordan with Jordan Okun and one of my favorite shows. I think you guys are really terrific. You know your shit and you have lots of opinions.

2:01and you were posting away and anyone, I'm going to link to Max's Instagram account in the show notes. Please follow if you are interested in Los Angeles dining where you're based, some travel, but really just getting these great reviews of restaurants. First, just like tell me about how you think about your own criticism because you really are a version of a critic. You work in real estate. It's not your job, but you really take a lot of time, spend a bit of money doing this work. Yeah. And the reviews are still coming. I still have like seven more reviews to come. But the way I look at it is I look at it from the perspective of someone with no motive other than to help others that would potentially be in a similar situation that I would be in going to a city where I want to rely on people that share my tastes and I want to base where I want to go off of that.

2:59So, you know, I don't belong to any publication and no one's paying me. I'm not part of some group like Michelin or World's 50 Best where there's politics involved. This is self-funded and this is these are my opinions. You know, some people might not share the the taste that I have, but those that do follow along. Yeah. And you have a really strong point of view. You really think about fine dining and wine service deeply. And I think that's a real wheelhouse for you. Have you ever been approached by like these big boards to join the party? Other than one that I can't mention?

3:41No, I have not. OK, interesting. I've said so many things about them over the years. They probably really dislike me. Yeah, you're honest about it. And I think I share in much of the criticism about World's 50 Best. I think it's a very narrow look at our global restaurant scene and you have a lot of thoughts on it. And you visited many of the places that have appeared on World's 50 Best in this in this great journey. And I didn't realize you had seven more to go. I'm only we're only going to talk about the places that I know you went to. Right. Yeah. So I have I have much more in the pipeline.

4:17Well, fill us in if any are worth mentioning. But before we get to the actual visits and restaurants, how do you plan a trip like this? Because it really is a special trip because you're very scheduled. You're thinking about reservations months in advance. You're thinking about travel because many of these restaurants you visit that we'll talk about are very difficult reservations. Well, for this trip specifically, my girlfriend and her family every year go to a different place in Europe. And so this year they said, you know, it'd be really great if we went to San Sebastian. And I said, I chimed in and I go, I'm coming and I will plan it.

4:58So that's when that started about four months ago, I would say, maybe less. And the first message I sent was to Echabari and I built from there. Unfortunately, a couple of places in San Seb were closed because they were on their holidays. So I missed a couple of places I love, but I don't feel like I missed out on too much. Amazing that you went with your girlfriend and her family. And this just brings up a big question. I mean, this is, I would say, aggressive dining in the best possible sense. I mean, it's a vacation that's centered around dining. Were they down? Did they know what they were getting into?

5:39I warned them. I said, this is a sport. And you really, really, really are going to be tested. But the good news is the food of the Basque country is so fish and protein heavy that you don't really feel like shit because you're just eating really high quality ingredients with not a ton of filler. And they don't use butter all that much. So you're not really being weighed down. It did get difficult at times, but no, they were able to handle it. I love that. I mean, clearly you found a match there, Max. You found a match. Exactly. Yes. And you wrote in several of your recaps how you have a long history with northern Spain.

6:30I think you mentioned you've been going to certain places for almost 20 years. Tell us a little bit about your visits to this region, which I think are clearly, I would say, a decade ago and even going back further, were the center of gastronomy. We know El Buji's important inspiration and influence in the region. That's obviously important. But really, I feel like we've maybe moved on from Spain in some ways. But you keep going back. Yeah, you know, I'll never move on from Spain just because of the ingredients and the way people treat ingredients. And all of this goes back, and Echabari goes back to 2008, where I did have an El Bui reservation.

7:11And I went to El Bui. And, you know, I was more excited about El Bui than any restaurant I'd ever been to in my entire life. And the setting was magical. And I ate about 40 courses. And of those 40, 10 were great. And then the other 30, I'm not sure I could ever tell you what they were. Right. They just lost a memory and time and maybe some some spherical versions of of of of verju or something. Right. But that's but that's that's what happens with creativity. You know, there are so many misses. And there were 30 misses out of 40 that trip. I still had a great meal and I had a great time. But when you really think about it, you're like, wow, 30 of these dishes weren't all that good.

8:00But then a few days later, I had gone to Echabari and some people in the know had told me, well, you should probably check this place out. And I went there and it changed the way I look at food for the rest of my life because it was ingredients that I had never had prepared in such an incredible way or taste as good. And I actually cried at that meal. I love that. I know you're telling the truth. I am telling the truth.

8:59reviews that Spain might be a place, if you're very serious about wine and collecting wine, it might be a place where you can drink some great European wine, Spanish wines at value. Is that correct? I am only speaking on French wines, Champagne and Burgundy specifically. I don't know what it is, But the prices in Spain and especially in Basque, in the Basque region of Spain are like shockingly lower than anywhere else. You could be in Paris and pay the same amount you would in Los Angeles and New York. But we're talking, I got a wine at Echabari that would be probably$1 ,800 or$2 ,000 on a wine list in the States for 200 euros.

9:49And that 200 euros has the tax and tip built into it. So when we're talking 1 ,800 in LA, New York, you're throwing tax and tip on top of that. Wow. You can name the names. Because we have a lot of industry followers, and I think you're not going to come off as just like a wine guy if you just want to say what that wine was. Yeah, that was Jacques Salos Vio, which means Virgin Original. All right. The champagne. Yeah, you're very, very astute to champagne value and just premium champagne. I'm not a wine person myself, so I can't respond to these. But please share the bottles when we talk about wine, because I think some listeners will appreciate that.

10:37And really good point. I mean, I would love to investigate that on taste for a piece about why you're seeing these values. I mean, is it just by speculation? Is it is it there's an inventory issue? They need to move bottles out and they're just like trying to make their money back when they can. I don't know. You know, I don't know. There's an inventory issue with Salos and they don't have enough of it because it's highly allocated. But, you know, I've talked to people and they go, well, I buy it for this much and I only do a small markup because those that love these wines get so excited and they buy them.

11:12And the margin you make on that small markup is still more than a larger markup on a lesser wine. So they're still making money and hitting margins. They're just not like hitting a home run in that arena. Let's start in Barcelona. You fly in many folks when you're coming from America. You fly into Barcelona. I was just there on a Taste Travels culinary trip and I got to go to some great restaurants. We didn't overlap on any. But Gresca was on my list. I had a couple nights off and I went to Ultra Marino's Marine and I wrote about it. I love that place. But tell me a little bit about this visit to Gresca.

11:49Well, Ultra Marino's is great. And Gresca, Gresca to me is this perfect mid high level restaurant. You walk in and it's extremely casual. But then you look into the kitchen and you see their kitchen suite, how everybody's operating in their stations. and you go, okay, this place is serious. And you see the food come out. And the way things are plated at Gresca are very, very simple. But just from the eye test, you can tell something's going on here. It's great ingredients, treated beautifully, with a great wine list, great energy. And it's just the type of restaurant that you wish existed in every city.

12:34And Spain is lucky to have it. Yeah, I mean, it's on the list of mine. And what else did you find out in Barcelona? Is there anything that surprised you from your couple days in Barcelona? I tried a new restaurant called Surubar, which are actually Gresca alums. And what they've done is they've tied together yakitori and Spain. and um you know the best example of that is a chicken skin yakitori with prawn tartare on top and lime and that was delicious and it was just a very fun restaurant where all the seasoning was on point and you know the cooking temps and textures everything was just it was really impressive and that that was the first time i had ever been to suru and it won't it won't be the last either.

13:26I love that you went to Suru and you kind of bucked a little bit about the Catalonian cuisine that you probably would be probably more inclined to try in Barcelona, especially in the early days. You took a little bit of a gamble and went for this kind of fusion-y place. It sounds delicious. And of course, they're pulling from the ocean and there's incredible produce available on the seafood side in Barcelona. Yeah, absolutely. And if you want to expand on more things in barcelona you know estimar is uh seafood heaven uh rafa zafra is is amazing he's an el bui alum but i love when these el bui alums open restaurants and go so simple like literally like grilled fish on a plate and that's it um which is amazing cocina hermanos torres is the perfect example of a three michelin star restaurant with all its bells whistles service, but they're having fun and they want you to have fun and experience pleasure.

14:25And they also get going modern, but keeping the food rooted in classic flavors and foundations. So it's that great juxtaposition of whimsy, but it took 24 hours to make this sauce and you can taste it. Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely the appreciation that you would get in the hours spent in the morning, early mornings, setting up that 90-minute meal of yours. Right. 90 minutes, it's a lot longer than that. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, you're doing wine service. So, I think about 90 minutes for this type of meal for myself, but you're getting wine service. And on the note of service in general, I mean, you have a lot of thoughts on Air Jordan.

15:12You and Jordan riff a lot about that Los Angeles service and maybe some shortcomings there. But I think you have a lot of heart and I think you appreciate great service. Let's just set the foundation for this conversation about service, Max. What do you like in your service on the wine side and just generally for the cuisine? You know, I'm pretty lenient with service. I only get upset when it just gets really bad. Wine service, if you're a restaurant that wants to provide wine service, provide that wine service. Pay attention to wine glasses. Pour when necessary. Take things off and put them back on the ice when necessary.

15:52Clear glasses. If you're not going to do that, just put the bottle on the table and I'm happy to pour wine for myself and for the table. it's just noticing things, right? Clearing plates, cleaning up the table if there's crumbs on it, whatever it may be. So I'm not that crazy about service but when service is really great I appreciate it quite a bit. I appreciate that. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last minute shoppers you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea, Aura Frames. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love.

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17:19That is pretty cool. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get$35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code TASTE at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames dot com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request?

18:00A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey. Link in our show notes. Let's head north. I think you headed out of Barcelona. You went up to San Sebastian and the Bosque region. And we'll talk about some restaurants up there. But for me, like the region is really special.

18:37And one component to the cooking there is this pil pil sauce. And it's magical when you get a good one. And I want to like break it down a bit. how this very important technique and this sauce is used in the cooking up there? Well, you know, some people go super classic and they just do the olive oil and garlic and then the collagen or gelatin from whatever seafood it is they're cooking. You know, if it's going to be cocochas, which are the cod or hake throats, there's going to be it's going to be a way thicker peel peel because of the amount of gelatin there. But if you use a Turbo or a Red Bream or a Soul, it's going to be a little bit lighter of a peel peel.

19:25I personally enjoy when they add vinegar to it because seafood loves acid. Everything loves acid. And I also like when they add those dried guindia peppers just to give it like a little extra something. because when it goes extra classic with just the garlic and the olive oil, it lacks seasoning and acidity, quite frankly. Oh, I mean, that can make or break a very lightly grilled seafood. I mean, you have to have that balance of acidity. And we use citrus here a lot in the United States, sometimes incorrectly. I mean, look at our regions when you have that big lemon that you're supposed to spray all over your overcooked fish that we have this heritage, but in Spain, they're using peel peel to really enhance this fresh seafood.

20:20Yeah, absolutely. And you know, they don't use any citrus up there. It's all vinegar. So delicious. All right, let's get to Eshtabari. And let's just talk about this restaurant that I think for me, it's the number one restaurant I want to visit in my lifetime. It'll hopefully happen. And you've been going back time and again, and you referenced earlier about the time when And it was off the radar. It wasn't part of World's 50 Best. And now, of course, it's been anointed. It's been one, right? It made one a couple years back. No, never. It's never been one. It's been number two two years in a row.

20:54And I got pissed off this year because Bitor, the chef, does not like going to these events. He does not like these lists. He doesn't like this stuff. He doesn't like leaving that restaurant. So if he gets number one, he gets off the list and doesn't have to do this anymore. So I wanted him to get number one so he doesn't have to go to these things anymore. Yeah, it's a crazy, crazy world. And they make everyone go to Las Vegas. It's like, Jesus. Yeah, especially going to Las Vegas when 99 % of that list is Europe and Asia. it's like what do you why are you having them go to las vegas and i'm gonna guess that like the the the sem pelgrino water was not necessarily a focal point in the dining room at eshtabari it was not but they do serve it i mean they have to almost like yeah just spiritually i mean they serve it but and this is a joke a little inside baseball but like it's this this whole list is is supported by San Pellegrino and Aquapana, the water giants.

22:03And it's a joke when you, when you think about having this water from Italy being put into like Copenhagen restaurants, it's like, what? You got your own waters. They have many of their own waters, sparkling waters, you know, Spain's got Vichy Catalan, which heavy salt levels, which I love more than San Pellegrino, but no, we can't use that because we got to play the game. Yeah. So what's the, what's the scene check at Ashtabari? What's it like dining there? I really am curious about what the style of service is like. I know years ago they serve a beef course late in the meal, maybe even as one of the final courses that was like a long tradition.

22:40But what's it like? The final savory, yeah. Yeah, the final savory. You know, I'm glad you asked that question because a lot of people look at these lists and they look at how mythical Echeverry is and they think that it's this fine dining palace. It is not. It is very casual and it's simple. It's an hour outside of San Sebastian in a small town called Achebay, which I think has 90 residents. All the buildings are hundreds of years old. You're surrounded by these verdant mountains of nature. As you're driving there, you'll drive by a million cows and goats and water buffalo and things like that.

23:23It's just an idyllic situation and location. The food is all grilled by Btor. No one else is allowed to grill the food. It's about ingredients. Not all of the ingredients he uses are local. The beef he's using is from Galicia. The prawns he's grilling are from Palamos. The anchovies are from the Cantabrian Sea. That being said, he does milk his water buffaloes and make cheese every day. So that's quite local. But it's about fire and it's about seasoning and ingredients. And that's it. So it resonates with me the most because all of us have had a prawn before, or at least I hope we all have. But you've never had a prawn that is as succulent and delicious and sweet while also being oceanic as the prawns from Palamos.

24:24And that's what it's all about, right? Like you've had chorizo before, but the chorizo he's made is the best chorizo I've ever had. Anchovies. He cures his own anchovies for at least six or nine months in a wood barrel. It's the best anchovy I've ever had. And that's why I cried the first time I ate there is because you have a foundation and a reference point for all these things that you're eating. But you have never had them taste this good. Just like the steak. My last visit, he's using 12-year-old Rubia Gallega Vaca Vieja beef that's aged for about 40 days. And it's the beefiest tasting beef I've ever had.

25:14It's just delicious. And that's what it's about. It's not the bells and whistles. You go to the bathroom. You don't come back to a folded napkin. Your napkin's the same place you left it. This isn't that like high-touch service. It does have a Michelin star, but according to Michelin, their stars are only given based on food, which if that's the case, this is a three-star restaurant. Yeah, but it's just small town, simple ingredient cooking all over fire. Bitor has built his grill to his specification, and he creates his own charcoal with a special oven he built. and that's the flavor you get even down to dessert everything's cooked over fire the chocolate souffle is cooked in that oven that creates the coals and the they call it reduced milk ice cream but it's really smoked milk they put a pot over the grill while the embers are dying to reduce the milk and what you get is this incredibly smoky sweet ice cream that's it's unbelievable it's one of the best ice creams i've ever had i mean to have it as a segue from that that beef uh emoji beef like that incredible beef uh which seems like an incredible like a great pairing just having that flow right into it it's all a great pairing even the even the fish course uh this this uh trip it was red bream and when i had so many peel peels all over and when you taste his fish and you taste his peel peel you're like okay this one's the best yeah Yeah, you're tasting it all over the region.

26:53You're going to actually land on that. I think my writing partner, Daniel Holzman, chef in L.A., shares your opinions about that steak. And I just think I feel like this needs more discovery and adventure from our listeners. On that note, how do you book there? I mean, you said you built your whole trip around a reservation. It must be a pretty small place with only one person on the grill. Yeah, so the main dining room only has seven tables. and they turn their little living room into a couple tables and then they have a private dining room upstairs, but that's it. And unfortunately, the way Echabari has gotten in popularity, you have to plan a year out.

27:33And even if you plan a year out, you're probably not going to get it. I'm lucky enough to be friends with the general manager, Somo Yeh, and Vitor's right-hand man in the kitchen, Hector Gran. on and so i messaged them and and they get me in so i'm i'm really really fortunate that way so if you want to go to echebari go with someone that has a connection there and it's kind of like hayato here in los angeles like it's a members club and if you don't know somebody that goes there all the time you're probably not going to get in so it's it's kind of that situation like Yeah, Hayato, it's like they're standing table res for like week monthly tables, I'm sure, for locals.

28:17People eat there every week or every other week. And if you want to res, you got to go with those people. Yeah, exactly. Or just plan ahead. And if you're planning your 26th summer, hop on that. Get on the reservation line and try to get that reservation. All right, we're going to head to the other end of the spectrum with Rakondo. You had some issues with your meal there. And it's got to be disappointing when you're trying to plan a trip for friends and you enter a space that isn't really paying attention to the table. I think in your review, you call the service Adhorrent, which I think is a very strong language.

28:52What made this meal so bad? Adhorrent was a strong word. But, you know, I've been to Rocondo many times and I still really like the restaurant. But, you know, this is high season. It's July. They're very, very busy. The outside area is full. The dining room's full. We get there. We're a six top. We're sitting there for 30 minutes. No one has offered us a wine list. The sommelier hasn't come by. I'm watching him just float around, giving everybody else attention. And then a server comes up and says, would you like to place your order? And I'm very particular. I don't want to start eating until I've chosen my wine and I have wine in my glass.

29:41So I said, no, please send the sommelier over. And so I ordered the wine. It takes a little bit to get there. It's not cold enough. So we got to throw it in an ice bucket. we're finished with our short pours of wine. I stand up, start pouring everybody wine at the table. The woman that owns it ran over and she goes, what are you doing? Please let our wine team handle this. I said, okay. So I put the bottle back in there. We have empty glasses for another 25 minutes. No way. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. And cause I'm, I'm respecting, I'm respecting what she said. there's no wine service going on. So I take it out of the box.

30:27I'm sorry, passing it around the table because me standing up to pour wine around the table triggered her. But then, then we get to other plates of food being dropped without things being cleared. So then it creates table Tetris. And then, you know, you, you, you, you know, Hey, we, we would like some more sparkling water. Okay. Let me, let me go get someone else. And then that someone else doesn't show up for 15 minutes. So it just got out of control with, um, with being ignored. And then at the end of the night, you know, we're up on a mountain and we have to, you know, order a taxi. And so you go by the number on the taxi that you're given with the ticket.