624: Food Writers Talking About Food Writing with Mahira Rivers

25:15Yeah, their interest. Deep interest. It's that when you eat a croissant in isolation on its own, it's great, right? It's buttery, it's crisp, and it's wonderful. But when you eat a croissant and then you have something next, like another one, and it's, you know, maybe it's sourdough or maybe there's something special about the technique or the lamination, the fermentation, cold, time frame, whatever it is, and you compare them head to head. that's when you start to understand the nuance and the difference and that relativity is is what i framed this whole exercise around so i was getting like competitive sets and i was doing them head to head and that really kind of highlighted where certain croissants that are very very popular fell short and so radio i i know that this is a big one and so i was careful like to go at the right time and gave it the best shot possible.

26:07But I really did find that it was the plain butter croissant. It was a little dried out and the morning bun, it was a little underbaked. So there were some for me when I had them that there were flaws that I that I could see. And that was true. I think with Dominique Ancel, I was looking for maybe a little bit more texture. And I even went to his new bakery and I tried. So he has a croissant bao, which is like the new cro-nut. I attempted new cro-nut, we'll say. Something, which I don't know that that's actually true because it is literally just a bao, like a steamed bun in the shape of. And that was the same.

26:49It's not lamination. Not at all. It's just a bun. And no butter, except he stuffs it with red bean paste and a fat pat of French butter, which is divine. It's delicious. But it wasn't a croissant in my book. And then the Fan Fan donuts in Brooklyn, she had the same thing. It's the shape of a croissant, but it's her brioche donut dough. And so it didn't quite make it into the – because lamination is probably essential. Yeah. That's part of what makes a croissant. What about color? I think that's a really interesting topic to tap into. Some croissants are quite dark. They are. They are quite dark.

27:25And I find that – and there were some that were quite dark on the list. I think Supermoon goes kind of in that crispier dark side. But, you know, if they veered too far in that direction, then they were a little bit dried out. And that's not very pleasant to eat. There was one bakery in the East Village called La Fournil that I love. And I've been many times. And to me, that had been sort of like a gold standard croissant in the city. And I went a few times because I was like, what's going on? Like, what happened here? And it just wasn't the same as I remembered. It was just slightly darker than I.

27:58Yeah, when it's too dark and it's more of a texture thing. You start off by saying this is going to be dry when you see that developed and dark. So you would, just from hearing you speak about the process, you would go out and scoop up a bunch to go and then bring them home and do some side-by-sides. That's right. That's a really excellent methodology. I couldn't think of anything else. I mean, I didn't I I thought eating it on on site in the moment, you know, would be a good thing to do for integrity, you know, maintaining the integrity of the product. But I really felt like eating something right like head to head is just like it pulls out the the saltiness of one and the underdeveloped flavor of another so much better.

28:42And I love that you recognize that timing is important. So you were trying to give them the best of their their best shot. So I'm getting a sense this is not about vibes. You're not looking at the cafe. You're not looking at the coffee service. You're not looking at the rest of the case. Like when you're talking about the 22 best croissants in New York or 21, it's like the croissant. Right. I love that. Yeah. That's really, really smart. Yeah. I mean, this is – we'll talk about this later. But I put a recommendation out there and I stand by it. So if you're going to go and spend your time, spend your money, croissants are not that cheap.

29:13They're like$7 per croissant. I mean, five to seven. So if you're going to do that and you're going to invest your time and resources, I want it to be worth it. It's so funny. On that note of price, I saw a thread that kind of went a little viral of someone complaining about buying like seven croissants for$35 and how that was insane. And I'm like, yo, have you been to New York? Right. I mean, fair if it's a different city. But listen, this takes a lot of time. It does. It is a labor. It's a very labor intensive thing to do. And it's very temperamental with the weather, temperature, all that sort of thing.

29:45And it's one of like 12 things that they're doing in addition, like C &B Bakery in the East Village, like their sandwich spot, they do bread and breakfast sandwiches. But like the croissants are incredible. So it's just one of many different verticals. And yeah, you do have to pay for that. It's probably too much. It's probably too expensive, but it is something to reframe. Good butter, the price in the past 18 months has gone up. Crazy. and the pavé, the bakery in Bryant Park area, they use Bourdier butter, which is insane. I had to call and fact check like twice, like, are you sure it's going in the croissants and not just on the sandwich?

30:24Oh, so it might be a loss leader for them. Yeah, and they responded. They said, you know, this is just our chef wants it to be the best that customers can have access. Did it make the list? It did. It did make the list. It's a great croissant. Yeah. Really beautifully classic, traditional, really good. I love it. I love the Lafayette croissant. And the great tip there is that you don't have to wait for it. No, the Supreme don't get the Supreme. Actively do not get it. But the traditional plain butter croissant was so textbook good and it was beautiful. It looked great. It's really good. Have you written about Lafayette like as a larger piece?

31:01I have not. It's an interesting place. Is it? It's like 15 years old at this point. It is. All of his places are just perfect neighborhood restaurants. Yeah, it's interesting. He's such a good – Andrew Cumberlini shouts to him. Next story. TikTok chefs have upstaged their clients in New York Magazine by Rob Franklin. Really interesting piece, lots to talk about. Quote, while private chefs might typically be bound by the usual expectations of the household staff they work behind, they're for the utility and otherwise unseen. This boom of interest in the day-in-the-life content is creating a new breed of creator.

31:36The gig can be good. We recognize that. You're living out in the Hamptons. You're living in a beautiful home. You get to go to the farmer's markets out there. You get to cook dishes for two, three, four people. So I think generally speaking, it can be a pretty good gig. And it's attractive for people who want to be a creator because there's ways to hack it, which is so interesting. I love this part of the piece. As Flankin reports, this hack is real to, quote, to rent Airbnbs to pose as client kitchens, branding themselves as Hampson's private chefs until the illusion becomes reality. uh your the creator of your own narrative says one chef riley mihin about the rumors surrounding one such creator who is apparently cooking for a very well-known celebrity um self self-proclaimed at least um and then created a content um personality out of it uh franklin profiles alex baker who cooks for major league baseball players and other athletes um as it becomes kind kind of an emerging creator of the private chef to TikTok.

32:44I think the biggest example of this is Meredith Hayden of Wishbone Kitchen. Meredith was quoted in the piece, and I've had Meredith in this studio, and we talked all about her journey. And she was a legitimate private chef cooking for clients and posted her first video on a whim, or at least recorded it a year prior and then posted it. It's a pretty interesting episode. Go back to that one. And it's interesting how Meredith has become this massive star in Breakout, and I love Wishbone Kitchen, what she's been doing and building. And it's reported in the piece, I can't confirm, but reported in the piece that she has bought a$3 million house in water mill.

33:20So, you know, Meredith probably has her own staff now, which is good for Meredith. But I just love this idea that you can hack your way into being a creator via this private chef TikTok world. But tell me, what do you think about this idea of the private chef to TikTok flow. I think it's so interesting. I do follow Meredith and I have for a long time and I've watched her kind of growth and journey over the years. And I think it's fascinating. And I but I also think that this is something like I remember reading about her journey and she actually had interviewed to work at Bon Appetit and she didn't get that job.

34:03So this is something and this is like a world that she's been trying to be a part of for a while so it wasn't as happenstance as it sometimes looks on the internet when things just happen overnight for people um but i also i think there's some interesting parallels in the substack world i think there's um and this is something that i've written about too there are all these tools available to people now to um go out there and try something of their own and in that way like Like you're given a means to sort of, in my case and on Substack's case, it would be like to write for the job that you want to have.

34:40So you put your stuff out there and you say, this is who I am and what I can do. And it ends up becoming sort of like a living, breathing portfolio of clips in a way. And then you attract, ideally, you attract the work that you really want to be doing, which is bigger platform, better pay, more consistency, whatever that is. And I think, you know, the private chef world is is similar ish in that way where you can put out at least this hack. I mean, the hack is drawing parallels in my mind. I think the whole idea of, you know, the person who typically was kind of behind the scenes now stepping out and becoming the main character is is I think in The New Yorker, there was that piece that the writer, I think his name is Kyle.

35:25he wrote about main character like it's getting main character energy and i think we're in that era now and now also there's a cult of personality where we're just all kind of wanting to be our own boss and wanting people to sort of like see us for who we are and like give us you know opportunities based on that so it's a it's a huge cultural shift it's it's fun i think it's but like i said earlier it's rooted in a lot of um it's not all just random like i i'd say it's you're not going to make it overnight. Like she spent years kind of building her, and she went to culinary school and she was trying to get into media.

36:04And it reminds me even of Emily Mariko, if you remember her. That was like eons ago, many eras ago on the internet. But she had a YouTube channel for a long time and then she broke out. So it wasn't all random. Love the piece. And I agree, like growth hacks are what they are. They're hacks, but they don't really create longevity. In many ways, you might get a sugar rush of followers, but it's not sustainable. And Maris is a great example of spending years in the industry working in kitchens and then posting it on a whim and then kind of. But also, there's like you have to have talent on camera.

36:40Totally. It really has to like shine through. And she has that. Great piece, New York Magazine. I love that one. Next one. Okay. We were emailing and exchanging ideas to what to talk about. you mentioned a piece that I wrote. And so I appreciate that. Thank you. And so we're going to talk about it because I think it actually has a relevance. You're very plugged into this topic too. You asked for my restaurant recommendation. Now seriously, go to the restaurant. It is on my sub stack. Plug to that. Food time with Matt Rothbard. And what I wanted to write about was simply this. You know, we have this world where when you're traveling or just like in your daily life.

37:17We want restaurant recommendations. We seek them out from all places. But as members of the media, I host a podcast and write, you write and have a great sub stack. So you're always getting hit up. And I feel like I am happy to do it. And I believe you are, too. I'm happy to give recommendations. I'm happy to help people find their way. But oftentimes, when we give these recommendations, they are not taken. And I think I try to analyze in this piece, like, why? Well, Well, I think there's a couple of reasons. I think people end up like if you're giving London recs, you land in London and you're not like a professional like yourself.

37:52Maybe myself, too, where you're kind of like make a plan and you have a Google map. And you're like, here's where my hotel is. Here's the walk. Here's the drive. Some people just get overwhelmed. They also sometimes just don't want to like think about restaurants. They have all these recs, but they're like, OK, we're going to go do all this other stuff. Fair enough. I think people sometimes want to make their own discoveries, which I think is a big part. People don't necessarily want to take the recs from their friends, but they're like, I want to find that new place. I want to discover it. And that's fair.

38:16I write about my process when I'm asked for recommendation. I always ask, like, what do you want? When someone says, I don't care, I always push them because it's important to get the details. Party, size, neighborhood, how many meals you want to have that day, etc., etc. I write all about that. I mean, for the record, I must say my New York City tourist wrecks are always PJ Clark's, Abrasso, Amelia Spolato, Sam's Restaurant and Peking Duck House. Because I think when you visit New York, there are all these great new restaurants, but you need a piece of classic New York for that visit. So I read about that.

38:52And really, bottom line is you should take our advice. You should take all of those names we give you, put it into a Google map, hit the Resi, you know, reserve button, book those tables, get on the wait list. Why? Because in these cities that we love to travel to, New York, Barcelona, Rome, London, people, there are so many shitty restaurants. So many. So many. And some of them look really cool. Some of them look like they will be fun. They will be really intimate. They will be local. They will have all these things that we seek as tourists. But when you ask a local or somebody who has traveled and written about the city, as we both have, we see through that.

39:33And we are trying to give you recommendations that are not that, that have gone beyond the marketing and the shine for a great restaurant experience. Mayur, what do you think about this when you're asked a recommendation? Do you go through a similar math? Do you have your own process of giving recommendations? I do. And it was especially frustrating. I think working at Michelin, we, you know, like maybe my family would say we're coming into town or take us somewhere or I would give them suggestions and then they wouldn't listen. I'm like, this is literally my job. and it's a good job and you're still not taking my recs.

40:05But I think what I've like come to terms with now is just, I think what I loved about your piece was that you need to ask questions about what people want because I don't think people, unless they have articulated that, they're not going to receive the recommendations. And I think like, for example, for bakeries, I want to send people to Bed-Stuy. There is a Southern layer cake place there, Doc's Cake Shop, and it's incredible. It's my favorite cake shop in the city. But it's in, you know, it's bar. And if you're coming into town, do you want to leave Manhattan? And if you don't, be real. Like, tell me you don't want to leave Manhattan, and I will give you the three places in the middle of the city where I think you should go.

40:50You know, I want to send people to Harlem to go to a Thres Leches Cafe. It's the best Thres Leches in the city. And I get it from my husband for his birthday every year. He's Puerto Rican and he's got, you know, high standards. So like these are the places that I would send people to. But you have to know what they're open to doing. And a lot of the times, you know, I will travel anywhere for food no matter how far I have to go. I will go. But not everyone is willing to do that. They kind of want convenience. They want a mix of like convenience and vibe and locality and that sort of thing. Yeah, but when they're hardcore into having a great meal, they have to like sacrifice some of those things.

41:28And that's true. And that's the sussing through it. Are you meeting an old friend to catch up? Maybe you want to go to a cool place, hit it for the gram, but like you're not going to actually care about the food. Right. You're going to care about the ketchup, which I love. We all love having a ketchup and not thinking about the food. So those questions. Do you feel hurt when you're not taken up on your ex? I mean, sometimes annoyed. Like, yeah, I did take time to do that for you. I did, you know, I spent real time to think about what you would like as a person and what you're looking for. And if you're not going to listen to me, then why?

42:01Why did I do that? I also press people to send me a follow-up. Right. Did you go? Did you like it? Did you go? Did you like it? Did you not like it? It has happened where I've given a rack and they didn't like it. And I love, I mean, obviously, I'm like, tell me. Especially if it's like not New York. Right. Or LA, a place I go a lot. Like, if it's London, I go once a year or whatever. I don't know everything. I just have some spots. And I've done my own research, so I'm trying to pass it along. Right. And restaurants change. That too. Chefs change. And yeah, it's evolving. It's dynamic. Thank you for having that conversation.

42:32Yeah. I got a lot of notes when I wrote that on Substack from fellow writers who are, some of them were just like, I just fucking hate it. I'm pissed. People don't take it. I'm like, it's not really an ego thing. It's just like, do yourself a favor and take the wreck. And it's time. Like, our time is valuable. It's true. Very true. Last piece I want to talk about. It's a short but really, really good one. It was written by Andrea Hernandez in her great subsex Snack Shot. And it was the lead story in recent post. Liquid Death from Hardcore to Cringe. Andrea writes about how liquid death is maybe losing its way.

43:09This has been one of the buzziest brands in ready-to-drink in the world of CPG, the RTD, lots of acronyms, but that's really what it is. It's a buzzy brand that was marketed on edge and creativity, all kind of like with these darker, deathier motifs. And I think, like, they had a lot of funding. You know, Andrea reports that they raised$100 million at a$1 billion valuation a few years back. And everyone was like, liquid death is the future. And now their investors have been quite quiet and they're looking to raise an additional$20 million and extend credit. And I think the big crux around this question is have they lost their way is this recent collaboration, which I have some thoughts on, Serial Criminal, which is they couldn't get Serial Killer, obviously, for some reasons.

44:02And it's a collab with Post Fruity Pebbles. I can deduce without trying the product that they're doing a sparkling water with color and possible fruity flavors. But clearly they're doing something with Post and getting a little bit of that big food money or at least some kind of cooperative marketing spend to get their brand out there. Sounds horrible, like something I would never drink. I think cereal collabs can be really sketchy. This one seems that way. But I'm really curious about your thoughts on Liquid Death, if you've followed this story at all. I think Andrea is really smart to point out that this is a company built mostly on brand.

44:40It's sparkling water. It's good sparkling water, but no one really knows where it's coming from. It's not like mineral water from a source. They're just selling water. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, it's water. Liquid Death, it's really intense sounding. It's just a little bit, I guess, like shock value, which after I read that, I was I mean, what I could think of is just are people do people care anymore what things taste like? Is it really are we really invested in the actual taste of things? Because it does feel like this collab is maybe a last ditch effort to shock and awe more people or at least tug at some sort of like, you know, nostalgic heartstring or I don't know.

45:24It's like a merger of lots of different things, but none of it feels very farsighted to me. It is sort of like a splash in the pan or a flash in the pan. Yeah, definitely. I feel like if you're going to do a collab with Big Food, do like Reese's, man. Just like go all the way and do a Reese's water. I just think the cereal collabs can be really torched and not great. And honestly, Andrea is skeptical of it. I'm pulling for them. Obviously, I think I'm really optimistic about water in general. And I know this isn't spring water, but I think water is an interesting category in the NA world. We've covered it a lot on the show.

46:02But I still like their sparkling water. I buy it at the grocery store. It's quite nice. Do you? I've never had it before. Is it like a good, fine bubble? Yeah, it's a nice bubble. So it's not a topo hardcore, which I like at times, but it can be too much for me. Yeah, I've enjoyed their carbonation, their forced carbonation. It's really, really good. because it's not naturally spring. It's definitely forced carbonated. Fact check me if I'm wrong, but I feel like they don't put like the natural spring this water comes from. This is truly seltzer. Right. But I think Andrea, just to shout her out, she's doing great work covering the industry and this was a good topic.

46:39Totally, I agree. I love her work. Well, that's our writing for today. We'll be back again soon with another journalist to talk about some writing, but I want to close with a couple segments. The first is the segment I feel like I'm going to keep asking because Graydon Carter is still in the news and they're still talking about the rates he was paying his writers in the 90s and in the 80s. I was at a dinner recently and I sat next to somebody whose parents worked at Vanity Fair in the 90s. That's all I'm going to say. And it was interesting to share some notes about this era. And I was like, we do this podcast.

47:13We talk about Graydon Carter in the 90s. So anyways, in 1997, if Gradyn Carter was on the phone, you were pitching him a story. And the assumption is that, you know, you have this kind of unlimited budget. You're getting paid$400 ,000,$500 ,000 a year to write two stories. But really dig into it. And we love the journalism that came out of Vanity Fair in the 90s. It's really, really terrific work. And they clearly resourced. Mahira, what would your story be? So I am deeply fascinated by America's soft power across the world. Yeah. And I think using food as sort of a tool to, you know, pull people into this idea of America or this ideal of America.

47:55So fascinating to me because I grew up in Hong Kong and I grew up, I went to an American school and I was exposed to a lot of that. So I would pitch a global study, around the world study, of, you know, a few key cities and countries where maybe this was very prevalent and just study the impact or research the impact of, you know, American cuisine, exported American cuisine in a form of soft power on the local culture and report back. I love that. I think that you could definitely find American soft power in places like Japan and China and Korea, but also Korea. On the flip side, their soft power is probably at its height right now.

48:40Totally. Korea's soft power is incredible. I agree. And I personally am just like, why haven't we seen an equivalent, you know, coming out of China? I feel like it is a huge opportunity for a country with an incredible amount of history and diversity within its cuisine. I'm like, this is a thing that, you know, could be done. But yeah, absolutely. I think it's working in the reverse way. Very monocle of you to talk about soft power. I feel that great publication has always been talking about soft power around the globe. But food is a great soft power and we've seen it all over. But like America's influence and unique places would be very cool.

49:19I love that idea. That's great. Great. And pick it up. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition On the Menu Montreal. a restaurant story. The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.

50:04The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner.

50:36Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed. And I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi. And I pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.

51:14It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. On this is Tasty, we've got some other sharing tastes. So to close this interview, here's a Fast and Furious Taste Check Media Edition.

51:54Are you ready? I am ready. What is the first thing you read in the morning and where did you read it? This is a very unoriginal answer. I mean, I read the news in bed as soon as I wake up. Okay, so how do you read it? On my phone. Like phone, you're not getting that like paper to bed. No, I have not received a newspaper to my home in years. What were you going? Like what are the apps? What are the, is it inboxes and newsletters? It's inbox. It's mostly, you know, legacy media. I get the Times Morning Edition. I get the Wall Street Journal. I subscribe to like Chalkbeat, which is like the education newsletter for my daughter's school.

52:29And I obviously I get Gothamist. Love local journalism. So I think these are my main ones. So what do you read on actual paper? Nothing. Really? I read books. I definitely go to the library and I don't know if this is a good thing as a writer or not, but like I read from the library. I don't buy a lot of books. I don't have a lot of space. So, well, I feel like I'm not supporting financially, you know, the writers and authors. But on the other hand, I'm still reading all the time and I am supporting the library. the library. Yeah. I mean, you are recording this in Penguin Random House, so our business is truly selling books.

53:08Right. But I think libraries are incredible things and supporting libraries is also very important. Yeah. And telling your friends about books you like. Yes. Absolutely. Maybe they'll buy them. Right. Or, you know, in some way read them. What was your favorite food publication growing up? So I grew up in Hong Kong and media was very different there. I did not grow up with a lot of like PBS was not really a thing. I didn't grow up with anything that is here. I didn't grow up with a lot of things. But I will say that my mom used to subscribe to some Australian publications. I think Women's Day was one of them or Women's is Australian.

53:47And a lot of our cake, birthday cakes came from there. Cool. And then when I moved to the States, Food and Wine was a big one for me. I loved Food and Wine. Savoir was really nice travel writing. travel food writing. And then later on, Lucky Peach. I mean, that's what I read and was like, yes, this is the food writing that resonates. And I want to write like that. And I want to do stuff like that. Did you ever write for Lucky Peach? I was in I was at Michelin and I remember thinking I'm going to leave and I'm going to pitch them. And like, this is going to be my foray. But they they closed. They shuttered right before I left.

54:24So I'd never had that opportunity. Yeah. So while you were doing Michelin, what kind of writing were you doing? I wasn't writing at Michelin. Like it was it was inspection and it was critiquing and it was whatever the analysis was. But there was very little. I mean, I was writing in my way, which I think I was meant to be the, you know, a writer. And but that wasn't required of me at the job. I didn't have to do all of that. Let's talk about food TV growing up. Was there anything in Hong Kong on TV that was a cooking show? Yeah, yeah. So I, we didn't have like, we had two English language channels, TVB Pearl and ATV, ATV World.

55:00And so we would kind of get what we got. And we got Yan Can Cook, which I loved so much as a child. So I'd say that was probably my best TV show. But my family, we are food people. Like we sat and watched food shows at prime time. So it was Yan also. That's a great one. Where are you at with TikTok, Instagram, real social video right now? You know, Instagram. No, I'm I really just use it for work. I've never, ever posted a what is it? The text version. Oh, OK. Yeah. I've never posted a thread and I don't use X anymore. I don't really have time to sit and watch YouTubes. But TikTok is great. Like, I burn hours on TikTok, unfortunately.

55:52Not unfortunately. It's a great, great place. I don't know. I think lately I've realized, like, wow, I could have read many more books had I been just, like, put the phone down. Yeah. And I think I'm trying to course correct. What do you think about those backseat reviews, those fast food reviews, or just, like, people, you know, on TikTok doing, like, their hot takes about bakeries in general? I listen to them and I see what the word is just so that I know. But I kind of at this point am over it. But, you know, it's also reframing it. You know, I don't roll my eyes as much anymore. I just understand what it is.

56:26It's marketing. It's marketing for the restaurant. And so at that point, you know, you just absorb it differently. You know, it's not so rage baiting. I love that. You're open hearted about some of these reviewers and the way that they maybe are being paid by the restaurant. for marketing purposes, perhaps, maybe. I've seen some emails fly about like rates to visit a restaurant. Or even if it's free, right? Like you feel like you're doing them a surface. It's sort of like a mutual transaction. Oh, I mean, I love that. I mean, if you're reviewing a restaurant, even positively or negatively, it doesn't matter.

56:57But if you're showing up doing the work like yourself and presenting it on a TikTok or a reel versus writing a piece, I think that's great. So to be clear. Right, right. Or do you want to be in five years? In five years, I think, you know, I like what I do now. I really do. I just wish it was more consistent. I think any freelancer would say consistency is tough to find. And I would just love to have more consistency. I think also projects that maybe have longer time frames, bigger stories, books. I'm super like that's a pipe dream. I want to get into writing a book, children's book maybe. Yeah.

57:35Good luck to that. Thank you. Well, you write for taste. You write features. You also write every month a newsletter on our Friday newsletter. That's right. I love when you do that. Well, Mahira, this has been a lot of fun. Same. Yeah. I appreciate you for joining us. Food Writers Talking About Food Writing, come back again. Yeah, I would love to. I'll see you soon. Thank you, Matt.

58:02This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste