633: Do You Really Know Your Favorite Condiment? Claire Dinhut Will Take You to School.

21:58Liza, you and I, we're joining. Because that is exactly, exactly right. Yeah. So I think, you know, a good 4 a.m. pizza with ranch is necessary. If you don't have the ranch with that pizza, it's not going to hit as hard. Like it's not going to just taste as delicious. So I'm a huge fan. And yes, there is a recipe for ranch in my book. But I think it's the sort of thing where there's a time and a place for homemade ranch. And there's a time and a place for Hidden Valley Ranch. And 4 a.m. might be that Hidden Valley Ranch time. Hidden Valley, man. Polarizing topic. I mean, Hidden Valley works. There's some other brands to that.

22:32Yeah, I honestly am just not privy to all those other brands when I'm in the UK. So I never have ranch when I'm there. So that's why I've kind of found a way to develop that recipe to make it at home. Now, you write with certainty about the history of ranch. So take us a little bit through your research and findings about where ranch dressing came from. It's such a fun story. And I think that's why I had so much fun writing the book is there are so many condiments that you don't expect their history to be like that interesting. But basically, there was this guy, Steve Henson, who in the 50s was a plumber in Alaska.

23:04And he and his wife were like have friends over. They'd make this like herby dressing sometimes. Long story short, they end up moving to California and buying a ranch. And this ranch was called Hidden Valley Ranch. And he continues making this dressing that people love. And it's a buttermilk dressing with, again, all these herbs. It is ranch. Shocker. And then they open up this little restaurant and people start eating this ranch, eating this ranch. And they start packaging it, then selling it to customers because everyone was missing that flavor when they would leave the restaurant. And then that became, you know, Hidden Valley Ranch.

23:34Yeah, then it became a CBG product and was everywhere in America. I think it was bought by Clorox in the 70s or the 90s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wild. It's a wild topic and I love that you give it its respect. Let's talk about the condiments of Asia. I think that that is, you know, South Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, we'll just say all. It's a place where, you know, there's a lot of unique flavor profiles that really just absolutely excel in bringing more flavor to like vegetables and starches and proteins. Yeah. Broad question. This is a tough one. I mean, do you have any favorites from Asia? Oh, definitely.

24:16I love Japanese food. I love Japanese cuisine. I could eat Japanese food for the rest of my life. Everyone always says they expect me to say French food, but to me, Japanese is top to top. I love ponzu because I love that brightness, that citrusiness. I love soy sauce. I put soy sauce on pretty much everything. Like Dijon, I think if you add a little bit of soy sauce to any dish, vanilla ice cream and soy sauce, delicious. Maple syrup, add a little soy sauce, delicious. Yes, of course. Ponzu and watermelon, great combo. Interesting. I like the yuzu ponzus a lot. Love the yuzu ponzu. Those are dope.

24:50I like with citrus ponzus. Yeah. So I couldn't find any yuzu ponzu in London. Like they'll have like lemon ponzu or orange ponzu. I think it's pretty much always sold out. And so I have a recipe for ponzu in this book, which, again, was so fun to like learn how to make because I didn't think I could. And if you add, you know, lemon, a little lime, a little clementine juice, you end up getting as close of the yuzu flavor as you can if, you know, you're not able to find that yuzu ponzu. Do you know about Yuzuko? Yeah. Have you heard that brand? Yeah. So I work with Yuzuko sometimes. I got them for the condiment book box that we sent out when the book came out.

25:23I had some of my favorite condiments in a box that we shipped to some people. And one of the condiments was the new Yuzuko Shoe. Oh, yeah. Phenomenal. And I did a dinner with the Infatuation, too. And we were like, can we please have more of that so we can gift that? Because it's just so yum. I love their Yuzuko Shoe. I mean, I like some of this products from Japan, too. But that's a great brand. Yeah, great brand. So you're like in. I mean, I've connected with them a little bit. But are they going to do a ponzu? You know, I don't know. They should. Trust me, I would love that. I would love that.

25:52Because I think you're so right. Like ponzu is a really, really, I think like underrated ingredient, component for cooking. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think in this country you can definitely find it in grocery stores. I think in London you're finally starting to. So in France, good luck finding, like, you know, yuzu ponzu. It's not, unless you're in Paris, you can't really find it. We think of it as like a dipping sauce here only sometimes. I think you don't think of it as a cooking component, right? I love using it in salad dressings. Yes. It's really good. Let's talk about American hot sauce.

26:23Yes. Because I think that's a great, there's a great history here, of course. We have like these historical brands like Red Hot and Crystal and Tabasco. Yeah. Do you have a take on American hot sauce versus Mexican hot sauce and some favorite American brands? You know, because I grew up in L.A., I do love Mexican food. So there's a lot of Japanese influence, too. So that's why I love Japanese and Mexican food. It's a great place to grow up when you write about food. Amazing. Feels very comfy to me. So I do love Mexican hot sauces. In terms of American hot sauces, have you heard of Zab's? Of course.

26:59I love Zab's. I love Zab's. It's L.A. and me. Yeah, Miles is coming on the show soon. I've gone through two jars. It's like one of those jars that when you open your fridge door, it rattles because it's empty. Yes. That's my Zabs. Yes. Well, tell them I say hi. Yeah. Love those guys. Are you an original or a St. Augustine style? I like the original personally, but I've been hip to both. The original is the blue one, right? That's the St. Augustine. Oh, shit. Yeah, you like the St. Augustine. Then, like, let's rewind. Yes, I do like the St. Augustine. It's just slightly sweeter, I find. Sure is.

27:30And there was a reason. I was like, why do I like this one? You know, I love both. But I was like, why do I always gravitate towards the blue one? I was like, so weird. And I finally checked the ingredients, like, years later. has mustard powder in it. Oh, mustard powder is cool. That's what that is. I think it's just like we have a tendency to love sweet here in America. I mean, your palate's international, but for a hot sauce to be sweet but also balanced with acidity and actually have real heat but not too much is hard to do. Yeah, and I think just also highlighting the datal pepper is so interesting.

28:00Yeah, right. It's very like, this is an American hot sauce and I think that's brilliant. I love that brand. They're doing that Taco Bell collab. Are they? Yeah, that was announced in some press release and I know we'll talk, Miles and I will chat about it. Oh my God, that's so fun. Yeah, they're doing a Zab's. I'm sure it's not like obviously in every Taco Bell, but smart. That's really smart. Because I started using their hot sauce before the pandemic. I think it was an LA-based company. And so it was at like Alfred Coffee. And it was like, Alfred has Zabs. And I was like, oh my God, that's the only place he can find Zabs.

28:29And I ended up sitting down with those guys years after when it was still just very LA-based. So I love that now it's, you know, I can see it in grocery stores even here. And the fact that they're doing a Taco Bell collaboration is wild. It's so good for those guys. I would definitely be emailing them congratulations right after this. I just, I bought it at Erewhon, actually, when I first bought it. What's your relation with Erewhon? I love Erewhon. Oh, yeah. You know what? I grew up with an uncle who was vegan before it was cool to be vegan. So he would always go to the Erewhon and I would go with him.

28:59That's like his splurge. It's just always, you know, eating good food there. It is a splurge for sure. But you know, it's interesting because there are certain things there that are regular priced. And so it's just about, I mean, this is so embarrassing to say, like, I scroll through the app when I'm in London. Why am I a member of Erewhon when I come to LA once a year? Like, it does not make sense. It is not financially smart, but it brings me so much pleasure. Yeah. And so to be able to compare the prices and see what actually makes sense at Erewhon, like some of the sushi items really make sense.

29:27And then I also, you know, I love an Erewhon smoothie. They're great. I'm a Minchip Energizer girl. Ooh. Have been since high school. That's my go-to. Yeah. And if you're paying$18 for a smoothie, people judge. Yeah. If you're paying$18,$20,$25 for a cocktail in New York, no one's judging you. It's just kind of commonplace. Yeah. And I think, you know what? If I'm going to buy a beverage, if it's good for me, you can't judge it. Whereas, like, a cocktail, no one's going to blink an eye. So I just think that comparison is really interesting. Smart. I think you're right. I think we definitely will spend anything for certain products like alcohol and then judge like a$7 coffee.

30:03Have you had your coffee awakening era yet? You know, I never really drank coffee. I started drinking coffee in college. I really like like a good roasted Italian coffee, right? Like I just like it smooth. I don't like any of like the cool new places like nitro cold. Like that's not my thing. But I always drank matcha when I was in L.A. Because again, Japanese influence. In the past year, I've like really converted to matcha only because that's what I crave in the morning. But I was just in Australia in February and everyone always says, Australian coffee is so good. I was like, yeah, yeah. Like I'm like so picky.

30:36I like a like really smooth, creamy Italian roast. The coffee in Australia is so good. It is so good. Any cafe you walk into will be some of the best coffee you've ever had. So I was very caffeinated that trip because they also have delicious matcha. So I was just going like bouncing from place to place. Matcha mostly. I love that story about Australia. Now, I think you're going to have a coffee. I think I just can, like maybe not now. Yeah. And I'm not trying to judge. I think I didn't see coffee until I was in my 30s. And like you write about food so well and you think about, I mean, coffee is going to enter your life.

31:12I mean, I love coffee. I love anything coffee flavored. It's just at the minute, I'm definitely more of a matcha girl, but I appreciate a really, really good coffee. Your journey will be incredible. I can't wait. Sorry I'm being vague, but I feel like if you understand all the food science and condiments, just thinking about coffee from a roasting level and different producers and varietals and terroir and extraction points and setups at home. I can't wait for my awakening. So you fenced at Harvard and you were in an Olympic program. Do you still fence? No, I don't. I actually, I never really talk about this, but my junior summer, I got really sick just out of nowhere.

31:55Had a stomach bacteria that caused me to go to the hospital. I was only allowed to eat ice chips for a month. Oh, man. A bunch of tests done, took antibiotics. It gave me another thing. So I basically had, like, lost a ton of weight in the span of two or three months. So I went back to school, kept fencing, just kept trying to keep it up. And it's just obviously my level of fencing just, like, crashed because I had no strength. Yeah. and so I ended up stopping because to me it was I love the sport but I'm also a very competitive person so I'd always dreamt about you know making it to the Olympics I was going to World Cups and the second I just started getting beat by people I would easily be before it kind of was just just so devastating that I was like you know what that's I'm writing a thesis I'm going to put everything into that I'm going to spend my last semester actually you know going out in college seeing my friends doing that and I'm so grateful to fencing and I think about it genuinely every day because I think it's a sport that's so fascinating.

32:44It's physical chess. You always have to figure out what's next. And I love watching it. A lot of my friends, you know, are still fencing, going to the Olympics. And I loved my team. So the team and I still keep in touch. But yeah, the second I stopped, I stopped because I think it's too painful to ever do it for fun when you were at that level. It must have been really hard, Claire. Yeah, it sucked. It was definitely not fun. Yeah. But you probably gained a lot from being able to take that break from that senior year and also work on your thesis, which would lead potentially this book? Yeah, you know, I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing now and having that like real interest in food and travel had I focused all of my time and energy on fencing.

33:23So I'm really grateful that, you know, I experienced all of that. I think it definitely shaped who I am today, you know, whether that's being an athlete or being a fencer specifically, but I'm really grateful also that like that time came to a close at that moment and then I could focus more on career afterwards. That was a career in something that I really love, which hilarious to say my job is now condiments. But so let's let's close and talk about that, because you've got this wide world in front of you and condiments is wide, but also it's a small single topic. Where do you want to take this your career in food?

34:00Yeah. You know, I think a lot of people do think of it as it's so niche. It's condiments. Don't say that. No, no, but it's true. It is. I mean, condiments are niche. They're just like a really random, you know, part of your plate. But it's more so about flavor. And so if you think about the world of flavor and you think about all the different flavors around the world, why certain flavors came to be, why we gravitate towards some and not towards others. Is it your childhood? Is it, you know, a good memory? I think you just realize that it's not a niche whatsoever. It's kind of just touching upon the little surface stuff almost and just having to dig deep, which I think is fascinating.

34:34So I mean, I never thought I would write a book. I'm really grateful that I was put in this position. Will I write a second book? You know, if it's like a nice nerdy historical book like this one. Yeah, probably. And we'll see. And then otherwise, I always want to be in the food and travel TV world. So I think now that, you know, the pandemic is officially over and you can travel again and you do have that ability to learn about different places. I think it'd be really fun to go into that now that these book tours are over. I read that you wrote the folks at ZPZ 0.0. I used to work there for a couple years.

35:07Yeah, I love those guys. And I know that Tina's boarding's production company, but they did a lot of other shows. Yeah, yeah. Just loved those, the folks behind that company. It was sad to see that company shudder. Yeah. But I like to see that, that you had pinpointed ZPZ as a place you wanted to work. Yes, 100%. I was the annoying person emailing them all throughout college being like, please, can I work for you? Please, can I work for you? And they're like, you're a sophomore. And I was like, okay, next year, please, can I work for you? Please, can I work for you? And so my senior year, I finally got an email back and they're like, you know what?

35:36If you move to New York, come in, we'll figure something out. And I was like, thank goodness. Like, this is my dream come true because I grew up watching Anthony Bourdain. When people would ask me, what do I want to be when I grow up? I'd say Anthony Bourdain, which is a normal thing to say for like a 10-year-old or a farmer. So, you know, those two. That's great. And I got an apartment in New York. I went on my grad trip. And then unfortunately, you know, Anthony Bourdain passed. And so because of that, I had to shift gears. Yeah. Oh, man. It was that. June 2018. Yeah, that's it. Exactly. And so I ended up moving to New York, working for another production company, again, in food and travel.

36:09And yeah, it's kind of my journey. But you got into, you wanted to make films. You wanted to make television. Yeah. So are you thinking about doing more of that? Definitely. I think, you know, that's where my interest lays. A lot of my family works in TV, but they're all in scripted TV. and they always were like, don't get into TV, like do your own thing, like don't get into this evil business. But I love the docu-series world and the documentary world. And I think it's a very wholesome world because it's full of people, you know, who are really passionate about what they do, whether it's the environment, sustainability, animals, forests, food, travel.

36:42So I just, I love that space. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox.

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38:42Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited-time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Claire, on This Is Taste, we have guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check. Are you ready? Oh, man, I'm so excited. Okay. The best fruit? Unripe white nectarine. Very specific. Very great. I love a crunch. I love a little bit of acidity, a little bit of sweetness. Nectarine over peach. If I have to pick two others, am I allowed to do top three?

39:14You can do top three. I love a good blueberry. Yeah. A really good blueberry is very special. You've got to visit West Michigan. Incredible blueberries there. Okay, I must. Yeah. I must. Next trip. And a persimmon. But the one where you can bite into it where it's crunchy. Yeah, it's crunchy. But I love the nectarine that's not ripe. Yes, an unripe white nectarine. Unripe is the word. There you go. The worst vegetable. I love vegetables. This was like very difficult to me because I've listened to your podcast before. A broad bean. Interesting. Very cool. They love broad beans in the UK. The broad beans are everywhere.

39:48I don't know if I'd had a broad bean when I lived in the States. But like you always go to a restaurant and it's broad bean dip or like fried broad beans. I don't need them. If they disappeared, I really would not miss them. That's a first for the show. I love that call. I don't get the broad bean, I guess. It's like a flat green. It's like too big and unwieldy. Texture's weird. Not into it. What is your typical breakfast? I will usually have some sort of like leftover rice in my fridge, usually basmati. I love just like scrambling an egg through it in the morning. I love that. with like soy sauce or ponzu for kake.

40:21Or you can make it Mexican inspired, have some salsa verde on there, some avo. But I was in Australia in February and I got really addicted to Vegemite and avocado toast. So now I make my own sourdough at home and I'll layer Vegemite throughout it before I bake it. So it has these nice slivers of Vegemite. So a good avo toast on that is really yum. So I'm thinking about this rice through egg. And so you're just doing, what's the ratio about you're thinking? You know, it's like maybe like a cup of rice for an egg. Yeah, yeah. Mostly rice then. It's like a racier thing. It's, yeah, it's like a 50-50.

40:5450-50, okay. Yeah, it's a 50-50. And I like adding like chopped herbs to it if I have that. And I really just dress it based on the condiment. So it depends, you know, do I want to go Japanese that morning? Do I want to go Mexican? Do I want to go French? Very balanced. So, yeah, depends. What is the best dessert? Anything egg white. I love a pavlova. I love a souffle. I love an angel food cake. Like, for some reason, I'm drawn to all, like, egg white-based desserts. It's texture. Yeah. I mean, it's either, like, fluffy, fluffy or crunchy. So I love that. It produces just unique textures with a lot of air involved.

41:27And great vessels for condiments. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. Uncle Boone's. I miss that banana blossom salad. Dude, it's a great call. Thai Diner is amazing, but it's a different restaurant. It's different. It's different. Yeah. Yeah. You had some good times in that grotto, in that crazy, you know, unwieldy dining room. Absolutely. And also, like, proving that I could eat that spicy salad. I love doing. I know. It's true. It really was a mark of being a New Yorker of a certain era to, like, have that spicy salad at Uncle Boone's. With tears streaming down your face.

42:01Always. I can do it. I can do it. I always thought old Mission on the Lower East Side was on like, you know, that place was always spiciest for me, Mission Chinese. But I think Uncle Boon's was up there, too. Sam Tam Dur does a papaya salad. And that papaya salad is really spicy. My roommate here, when I was living in New York, was my best friend from college. She's from Beijing. She loves spice. And I wasn't great with spice at first. and she trained me when we lived in New York by ordering the Sampdhamdur papaya salad and making me have like a spoonful of it like every night and that's how now I'm really good with spice because of that salad and every time I'm in New York I will always get takeaway from Sampdhamdur and it's just that papaya salad I love that call on Avenue A in the East Village I wrote a story about Sampdhamdur for Savor a long ago they have a sardine dish that's amazing it's like a sardine salad with this cool like chili like a sweet chili sauce.

42:58Yeah. Okay. And but I love that call because I think sometimes there doesn't get enough. Like it's obviously an institution at this point. Yeah. It's when I'm in New York, usually we didn't do it this time. But we my friend and I, the same friend, we do a salad palooza, we call it. And we order our favorite salads from New York. And so we'll have like eight to ten salads on the table and just go ham. Wait, that's crazy. I love that idea. It's so fun. So you get like take away from like eight places and you all bring it over to your apartment. Yes. So it ranges from like, Like, you know, Sweet Green to Somme Tomme d 'Or to American Bar to Seidel's.

43:31And we just fall out. Instead of having like a fancy restaurant dinner, we just order our favorite salads. And it's so satisfying. Really, really satisfying. It's really yum. That's a real, like, I mean, talk about a hospitality hack. I mean, that's fun. I'm actually going to use, that's a great idea. I've never heard that. Get together with friends and everyone picks like one or two salads to order. You don't have to tell each other what you're ordering. And then when they all arrive, you kind of have this amazing spread of what people like. Yeah. A few more. When you're craving fast food, where do you go?

43:59I didn't grow up really eating fast food, but I am from L.A., so I do love my In-N-Out. Yeah. But I have a very specific order. What is it? Double-double mustard fried burger. So they can fry the burgers in mustard if you ask for it. Protein style, because I like the crunch of the lettuce. And then I get either a strawberry shake or root beer float. Oh, I love the strawberry shakes there. That's a good call. Yeah. Your favorite city outside America. Well, you know, I'm going to back up on that one. I feel like you're not really based anywhere. And I like always ground this question in America.

44:29So I'm going to just say your favorite city in the world to visit for food. Tokyo. Tokyo. Tokyo or Kyoto. Kyoto makes these really special little sushi called geisha sushi. And they're kind of miniature versions of sushi because they're small enough for geishas to put in their mouth without like opening their mouth wide. I went to an amazing tempura restaurant there. I just love any Japanese food. so I would have to say I probably know the restaurants better in Tokyo though so let me say Tokyo good choice last one your favorite sandwich I think a good jambon beurre yeah I think it needs to be executed well though it needs to be on a good baguette there needs to be whole grain dijon on one side butter on the other one good French ham good to go probably the most common answer for that question and probably the most correct answer thank you really enjoyed that answer and really enjoyed this conversation thank you so much thank you so much for joining This Is Taste thank you for having me

45:22And he's a welcome back to This Is Taste. Thanks for having me. It's always fun to be here. Well, I wanted to have you on specifically to talk about this terrific piece you wrote about the age of tin fish. And it really resonated. Like we had so much traffic in the past week and a half after we published it. Some letters, some social media commentary. How was it received on your end? Oh, I was kind of surprised by how much feedback I got. I got like a weird email from a stranger just sort of like giving a long account of how he started eating sardines. As like a guy in his mid 60s, he like recently got into them.

46:05But also, someone posted the article on the Canned Sardines subreddit, which I'm an active member of. And it sparked a really thoughtful conversation about how hobbies can become commercialized, how different private equity interests drive these things, and just kind of how capitalism can ruin even the most pure interests and hobbies. A few people also just pointed out sort of like the gender dynamic at play here and the fact that, you know, like a lot of in the United States, it's become really popular among women in the last few years. and so there's sort of like a question of like is that why there's the backlash interesting yeah yeah it was a really yeah there's some thoughtful commentary on on reddit well it's interesting with the gender dynamic because many of the voices you profiled in the piece are women and um there definitely is like the optics on some of the biggest brands are founded by women i mean how do you how do you feel about that the idea of gender dynamics with this with this, you call it this hobby going platinum, which I thought was a great way to say where Tim Fish is right now.

47:32Right, yeah. I mean, I think like the, part of the interesting thing about the gender dynamic here is just that so many large companies saw Tim Fish having a moment and in their eyes, this was like an opportunity to sell stuff to women. like you see all these clothing brands coming out with these like bejeweled clutch purses that look like tins of sardines and like dresses that have sardine motifs all over them so i do think there's kind of a cynical capitalist thing happening here we're just like brands and corporations see something become a little bit popular among women, and then they, you know, get dollar signs in their eyes.

48:23Yeah. So, Anna, where do we sit with Tin Fish right now in this era? I mean, you started reporting on it eight years ago on Taste, and you have written this book that's terrific. Tell me, how have we evolved? So much has changed in those last few years. I mean, I remember sort of starting to talk to publishers about the idea of a book about canned fish. And everyone was like, kind of just like, ew, gross. Yeah, and I think it took a few years. Like, you know, COVID sort of shaped the way people ate, the way people sought out shelf-stable proteins. and it just transforms people's shopping habits to buying things online and buying things at specialty stores too.

49:17So just after several years of big consumer changes, it really feels like it's reached a point of being mainstream. Just before recording this podcast, I saw a headline, I think published today from Harper's Bazaar declaring it sardine summer. Oh, no. I mean, that's like a phrase that you're probably also seeing all over the place. But it's just funny because it feels to me like the last three or four summers have been sardine girl summer, sardine summer, tin fish summer, whatever. So it's just funny to see this being like trotted out again and again and again. But I feel like the net positive for the industry is clearly there.

50:09Because, like, with this, just this appreciation, even at the most superficial level, there's still going to be dollars spent on tin fish that weren't there before. Well, let's talk about some of the major players that you profile. And, I mean, major players meaning the folks that you reached out to who are doing interesting work. And I think Charlotte Langley is one of them from Nice Cans. And you had a great quote from her, quote, With popularity comes dilution. You get a lot of trend chasing without respect to the origin, the culture, the process. When something becomes a vibe or an aesthetic, it risks losing its integrity, especially when new players don't hold the same values around sustainability, transparency, and even taste.

50:54It feels like a little bit of a there's a there's maybe a pushback to these bigger brands that have the the marketing dollars to get out there and maybe market the tin fish in a way that's maybe not signaling these important issues. How did you square this? Yeah, definitely. And I think Meiji Liao had a similar comment in the piece. um may is uh like works on instagram and tiktok and sort of like educates people about tin fish and yeah and sort of made the point that like once consumers are just told that like tin fish as a category is delicious and sustainable and whatever then that sort of like then And consumers maybe are more likely to conflate the industrially fished, sort of like less thoughtfully produced brands that happen to have savvy marketing with those like small, independent, you know, multi-generational artisanal brands.

52:08Now, you're an expert in this field and you've written about it both editorially for magazine articles and a terrific cookbook, which is everywhere. I see it and it's selling so well. Congratulations. Thank you. So can you as an expert say like and taste, it's the taste of it. Can you taste industrial versus artisanal, handmade? I mean, is there a real difference in the culinary aspects of tinfish? I think there are little differences that you notice. I mean, some of them are visual when you open the can. If you open a can that's been sort of carefully hand packed in this traditional way, it's like the fish or the mussels or cockles are really intentionally laid in the can in a really beautiful way.

52:59versus a lot of like super large scale producers just use machines to stuff the cans. So it's a little bit visual. And then you just taste quality, like quality of the oil being used, quality of the fish itself. So yeah, yeah, there are some differences. Really, really well said. And I totally agree when you crack a can, you can see when it's been all smushed in there and it doesn't have like the aesthetic or even the taste. it kind of mushes up a bit when when you get a can or tin that is uh from a smaller producer it looks like it's been laid um a little bit in a different way i never thought about it that way until now and it's really sound and you know this piece is not saying that tin fish is over by any means and i think maybe the headline tipped to that a slightly bit but that's just that's just the way that we framed the head.

53:56But I think you really get into it clearly in the piece that there are so many interesting brands, even the biggest, doing innovation and creating new product lines and new fish and new seafood are being presented to this wide audience. It has to be a net positive. Yeah, I think so. And I mean, it's funny, this is such an American thing that we're doing with tin fish right now, you know, in so many other countries and in many parts of Europe, there are these long traditions of eating tin fish, long traditions of respecting these products as sort of like a luxury item, something that artistry goes into, something that really good olive oil goes into.

54:41And it's just funny that, you know, once Americans are sort of like learning to embrace and eat this thing, we have to put a label on it. We have to sell merch. We have to make it a trend, like a themed summer of some kind. So that just feels like so American to me in a really, I guess, sort of predictable way. Absolutely. And the piece was framed as a study of American consumption of tinfish and American capitalist impulses. And you acknowledge in the piece, and it's clear that these traditions are very different in Europe and Asia. And if you go to Spain and Portugal, it's very different. And it's a longstanding tradition there.

55:29Right. Yeah. And I think like part of my thesis in the story is that it's going to become a longstanding tradition in the United States as well. I mean, And of course, the United States has had tinned fish companies, has had like a canning industry for many years. But I think we're seeing consumer behaviors shift a little bit where people are seeking out these really high quality products. And as a result, there are a lot of small independent companies that are either ramping up their production or they're starting new product lines or, yeah, new companies opening too, which is really cool. Very cool.

56:15I want to close and talk to you about this terrific piece you published on Best Food Blog. We've talked about your publication previously, and I'm going to link to it in the show notes. You got to subscribe. It's some of the freshest work online in the food and culture world. I just love reading what you're doing there. And you had a great idea. You wanted to get a bunch of restaurant critics together on Zoom and talk. Maybe there was some off-the-record stuff discussed before, but you really dug into big topics. What did you learn in speaking with these critics? Yeah, we had an amazing roundtable on Best Food Blog about restaurant criticism.

56:53I talked to Tejal Rao, who is one of the new chief critics of The New York Times, Helen Rosner from The New Yorker, Mackenzie Chung-Fegan from San Francisco Chronicle, and Jay Lee, who does work for Interview Magazine and for Feed Me. um and yeah it was just really fun i i feel like it's when you it's like when you get any group of sort of industry people together where they're excited to compliment each other's work and gossip and share trade secrets a little bit so that was really fun to witness like everyone talking about how they deal with fake credit cards and like how they choose pseudonyms for making reservations at restaurants.

57:46I just had never, yeah, I had never talked to a group of people about like how that stuff works when you're trying to sort of maintain a low profile and sort of go into a restaurant with a totally unbiased perspective. Really, really insightful. And all four have been guests on our show and I just respect the work and you got a just a really great cast there I mean did you guys talk about just restaurant trends and what they're seeing in the in the field likes and dislikes any of that stuff we didn't um put restaurants themselves on blast so much for like trends or um for what we're seeing at restaurants but we talked a little bit about food writing and everyone's pet peeves when it comes to food writing, which was interesting to hear.

58:35Well, I think I wanted to keep this intentionally vague because you've got to just go and read the piece. And I'm linking to it again in the show notes. It's from Best Food Blog. Anna Heasel, I love catching up with you. Former co-host of the show. Love your work. Hope you come back. Thank you for having me.

58:56This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.