634: Inside the Mind of a Former Whole Foods Buyer with Cathy Strange

29:26I feel we could chat all day in every aisle. Every SKU has a story. That's true. Let's regroup in a year. We can think about a little bit of how things have changed. Let's come back here in a year. I think we'll do that. I'd love to do that. I appreciate it. But the conversation didn't end there. We headed back to the This Is Taste studio to hear all about Kathy's career at Whole Foods and so much more.

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32:45Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. So much to ask you about your career. You're currently the ambassador of food culture at Whole Foods. But for years, you led a team of buyers. And we have many founders on the show who talk about getting into Whole Foods. So I want to talk a little bit about the buying process at Whole Foods. I also just want to talk about the current state of grocery. I mean, there's so many topics, pricing. We'll talk about Amazon, your strategic partner.

33:25But also, I want to talk from the jump. There's a smell. There's a smell at Whole Foods. I mean, you walk into a Whole Foods and it's like, that's Whole Foods smell. Kathy, describe the Whole Foods smell in your determination. For me, it just translates to it activates your senses to be aware of delicious things are ahead. So when we walk into a store, traditionally you would walk right into produce where you have the aromatics coming off of the seasonal fruits. So I think that smell is number one. We work very diligently to have the freshest quality product. And also we try and maintain a space that really shows it well.

34:11So that environment, we just want it to smell like good food. It's very true. And, I mean, here's my take. I mean, it's always positive. It's desirable. Because I'm smelling a counter. I'm smelling the meat counter. I'm smelling the fish counter. I'm smelling the produce coming in. If I'm lucky, I get a little whiff of coffee. I feel like there's always possibly some scented candle smell or like products that you would get at like a hippie grocery store or like a health food store. And it all kind of marries together for, I would just say, you're alive. And for me, when I walk in, I'm like, there's so much possibility.

34:54And again, this is not paid. I wanted to have this piece. I just love your work and you as a person. You're so knowledgeable. And I felt Whole Foods is so important to us as home cooks. We talk about it all the time on the show, how you cook from cookbooks or think about food. And Whole Foods is at the center of a lot of our lives when we're grocery shopping and discovering products from around the world. Well, I think also we're a food journey. Every store, no matter what the environment, represents what's seasonally available. and also hopefully new things that will activate some inspiration.

35:31And everything should be the highest quality and it should be natural the way food was meant to be. So we're excited that we're continuing to accelerate opening stores and bringing great food to locations we never would have thought available. I was in a store in North Carolina. and to think now we have stores in New York City and around the country and states I never would have thought possible is just amazing. Well, Kathy, tell us about your journey with Whole Foods. You've been with the company for many years and you've worked through the company from the store level to the corporate level and now you're an ambassador, which is a cool title.

36:12I want to hear more about that. But how did you get your start at Whole Foods and how did your journey begin just working shifts? For me, it was accidental in some respects. I didn't grow up wanting to be a grocer, a natural foods grocer. I don't even know natural foods was in the conversation at the point I started. I worked in a restaurant, and when the restaurant closed, I really missed keeping up with the vintages. So I thought I'd go work part-time. I had a full-time job. So I started out as a part-time team member in the Chapel Hill, North Carolina store. and I was referred by a friend of mine.

36:51When I told her I wanted to do that, I said, I'd like to go work for this company. And she said, you'll have to wear a tuxedo. But I would recommend you go to Whole Foods Market where you can wear jeans. We have a knowledgeable staff there and they'll be able to really guide you and keep you up to date. So that's how my journey began. And then I ended up managing the coffee in the area, Our store in Chapel Hill was one that we were hand-pricing everything. It wasn't certainly the modern-day get-it-and-scan. And so what was unique about it is I think in my department alone, we had 16 Ph.D. students, and we were all learning about food together.

37:36And we had the opportunity to taste high-quality food, and it was motivating and inspiring. What year are we talking about? 92. So you're at 92. You're in the Chapel Hill Whole Foods and you're managing coffee. Great, great topic. Let's start there. What's the coffee buying like in 1992 at Whole Foods? The coffee buying back then, actually, we worked with a company called Allegro Coffee that was based out of Colorado. And Kevin Knox was the buyer there at the time, and he was one of the original buyers at Starbucks until they started getting very big. And he was very particular about his coffee.

38:17So I learned a lot about sourcing and tasting. And we basically owned the coffee market in Chapel Hill. There were no outlet, multi-unit retailers that were coming in against us. And we were doing a lot of covers every morning. But we served fresh coffee and we rotated it. And once it came in and opened, seven days on the floor max and hand-pulled Chimbaly machines. So we were really baristas before I even knew what that term was, I think. And were you selling coffee, whole coffee at the time too? We were. Yeah. And we rotated. So if it was the freshness mark was seven. So as it got to that, then we we cooked it off in our cafe.

39:03So you had an experience of tasting coffee from around the world simply because we were fastidious about making sure our coffee was fresh. What's it like coming from the restaurant world? You said you worked in restaurants to enter this world of you've got Ph.D. students who maybe didn't work in restaurants, but had a real interest in food. You've got probably a lot of industry people there. What's the vibe like in 92 in the store that you're working at? I worked in a white tablecloth northern Italian restaurant. So the vibe was all about service and also about the highest quality products. So trying to bring that service component into a retail grocery environment was really something that we all strive to achieve.

39:48And I think my background in the restaurant business, even though I worked back at the house, always made that a priority. Yeah. So how did you move up in the company? I mean, you're working at this one location and then, you know, you end up at the corporate level. Give us your journey from Chapel Hill to being in the more corporate level. Interesting story. The person that hired me in the Chapel Hill store, we call them the store team leaders, was the store manager. When she retired, she opened a dairy, and now we buy cheese from her. My expertise was coming from wine and cheese in a northern Italian environment.

40:30So that went from part-time. I went full-time and then moved with the company to open the stores in Washington, D.C. under the Bread and Circus moniker. And that happened after the company Whole Foods Market went IPO. So we had a West to East profile starting in Texas, then Palo Alto and acquiring all the way to the East Coast Bread and Circus. When we opened in Washington, D.C., we were Bread and Circus. And then I worked as the manager of a department in a particular store. Shout out to the Arlington, Virginia store. And then ended up working as a regional manager. manager, we called them a coordinator for the specialty department, which included adult beverage, cheese, specialty chocolate, and olives.

41:21And by the way, we source all of our olives to farm. So we're really proud of that in our environment. And so I managed at that point in time, 35 different stores and helped open about 20 along the way in that particular role. And then from there, I was the very first global cheese buyer in the company hired by AC Gallo, who is based out of the Boston area, is just an amazing mentor. And from that point, then became vice president of specialty and now back to food one-on-one with my current role where I'm really proud that Jason Beagle, as he took over the CEO role from John Mackey, saw an acute desire and need to focus on food and our food culture.

42:18And that's who we are and thus resulted in this position, which I'm very fortunate and proud to be a part of. It's a remarkable journey. And anyone who's in the industry listening to your show knows who you are because as a VP of specialty at Whole Foods, I mean, that's a massive job. It's an influential job also. You're kind of leading the buying of specialty in this store that has such a massive footprint. You're changing lives, Kathy. What's it like being VP specialty and making that decision with your team to take on these companies? And second part of the question is, tell us about some of these early companies you champion that may be household names today.

43:01Well, also just believing in people, right? A lot of individuals have a great vision and entrepreneurial spirit and have great inspiration to do the best they can do every day. But the timing is not always right, nor do they always have the proficiency to be able to execute as a business. So our early growth within Whole Foods, we had the opportunity to give a lot of companies different chances. And in some cases, repeated chances because we believed in the product so much. I love telling the story about Mary Keene from Cypress Grove, which is a goat cheese out in California. She said we were her biggest advocates.

43:51And the reason was we told her to increase the price. She was about to go out of business and didn't really understand how to handle the economics. You're like charge us more. Charge us more because the product is worth that. And not to be afraid to do that if you have the quality to back it up. But I would say from artisanal cheese that so many of the names that are very well known now in the industry certainly had their start at Whole Foods and would acknowledge that. And then you look at the also in Center Store, many of those products would say the same thing. So we're really proud of that.

44:31as a company and having faith in people and then people doing the right thing around products and creating together with us. Is there a CPG company that comes to mind that you championed early? Well, I'm thinking right now Siete is top of mind, right? They just had the opportunity. So many different companies along the way, but small companies to large. And just also, if that's your dream, let us help you fulfill the dream along the way. Did you feel the pressure of making that right choice and the pressure to, you know, when you're given three sourdough cracker SKUs to taste and you had to decide on one?

45:20I mean, that's a heavy choice. It is a heavy choice. And at the end of the day, the customer ends up making the right choice. You can use all your intuition and understand the marketplace and understand the popularity of ingredients and or the integrity of how production takes place. But at the end of the day, the product has to sell. We are proud of also taking chances where there have been extraordinary circumstances where historic products were basically going to be on the verge of extinction. And getting a call, hey, we have 400 of these. If we don't sell them, we're out of business. Just being able to say, we'll take it.

46:05We believe in you. We will be able to execute this. And our partnership grows stronger with that faith so that we also become a priority to their business. Is there an example that you have of a company that was on the ropes and you were like, we're taking all 400? I would say the Kirkham's Lancashire. That cheese, a PDO cheese out of the United Kingdom was one that I feel strongly that we helped their survival in a very tenuous time. Yeah. Well, let's talk about cheese. You know, in addition to your role at Whole Foods, you're a global cheese judge. You're in the industry, one of the most influential figures serving on panels that judge all sorts of cheeses.

46:50How did you get into cheese? It's such a, I mean, incredible skill to be able to taste blind cheeses and rate them and grade them. During my time in the restaurant business, I had the opportunity to learn a lot about Italian-style cheeses. And those products were widely available in the market in North Carolina. So it started there. But in the Wellspring grocery store where I started that became a Whole Foods market store, my first PDO cheese learning about Emmentaler and then just trying to— My mantra was to learn something every day, whether it be about cheese or wine, just to grow my expertise in the food world.

47:39That started, and then the opportunity to do trainings, travel and train directly at sourcing and learn from the cheesemakers and then learn from consortios and then learn actively from a lot of the representatives who definitely had more knowledge than myself at the time. and then trying to share that along the way. And I'm really proud of how we've been involved with developing our apprenticeship program around the Certified Cheese Professional Program. And we're advocates for programs like that around expertise from the beginning. Yeah, I mean, it's legendary. When you work at Whole Foods, you have the opportunity to get certified within the store, which means you get extra education.

48:22You take courses, maybe even travel a little bit. And then perhaps, and you see this with Starbucks as well, perhaps open your own thing, eventually leave Whole Foods and start your own thing with that education. That must be gratifying that you're fostering education within the company. One of our mantras is team member development, learning and development. And we want our team members to learn every day. And that's part of my role now is just to be able to educate, engage, and inspire the team members. So with our apprenticeship program, we do that in several categories right now. We do it in produce.

49:01We do it with pizzole. We do it with a butcher and bakery. And with that also becomes, not only are you an expert, you are rewarded and compensated differently. And with our advanced programs like Certified Cheese Professional, you even achieve a different level and the compensation goes along with that. So we want you to be motivated. We want you to learn. And you own that. We don't own that. And the rising tide in the industry creates good things for all of us. Yeah, it's a great point. What's the Pisaolo program like? I mean, if you're certified as a Pisaolo, meaning you're making pizzas in the store and selling them either in a cafe setting or I'm sure there's other formats.

49:51What's the training like? The training could be up to you have to be a Whole Foods Market team member in good standing. Obviously, we want to invest in you if that's the case. And then it's a 12-week long program where you're learning about all the specifics with regard to, number one, make a consistent, high-quality product. That's what our customers expect, and we want to be able to train you to do that and then for you to pass on the knowledge. So that's skills that are taught by individuals within that environment to create the highest level of expertise. So they're taught within the store.

50:28So you bring in an instructor for that 12-week program. And they could be a part of the team because that person on the team may already have that expertise. So we have a team member learning and development team that also facilitates. And then we have operational leaders that are also experts that are involved. So it depends on the area that you are an apprentice in where the skill set would be, the training would come from. I want to pivot and just ask you about the customer of Whole Foods. And you started in the early 90s. How has a customer changed over time? I mean, I have to imagine, particularly after the Amazon acquisition, how did the way customers interact with Whole Foods change?

51:15I think the customers have a level of trust with Whole Foods Market that makes the relationship significant. They're not just – it's not just a one-way relationship. They're very open to providing feedback, what they want, and they also vote with their dollars every day. So I think also the transparency and the expectation from the customers is very high and continues to grow the more that individuals are exposed and learned. I think about the new generation, everything that they understand about food at a very young age just translates into the expectations they have from us every single day.

52:02Our relationship overall is based on trust with our customers. So as long as we keep the food the highest quality and meet the needs, I think together we'll be successful. Are you surprised by how much people know about food right now when you talk to customers who walk in? I mean, food is everywhere. And we, I think listeners of the show are listening because they're just generally interested in everything from chefs to new products to, you know, new restaurants. So there's been a sea change since the 90s. And obviously it's benefited places like Whole Foods to have real passion for it. I'm amazed, actually, that the level of knowledge at such a young age and then the broadness of knowledge as individuals learn more.

52:55I remember when I worked in the Washington, D.C. store, I certainly did not know as much about cheese that I know decades later. And I learned from ambassadors, like two countries that asked me about cheese. And there was only really one book on the market at that time. So really learning, it was a smaller circle of learning and mentorship. And the customers now, you could be teaching someone at a counter that's sitting next to you. And I always ask, where did you learn this? What's your favorite products? And the team members and the customers really enjoy sharing that information. Yeah. Well, you know, Kathy, the shadow of Amazon, it looms over Whole Foods.

53:40And there are many people who, quote unquote, want Whole Foods to be back to the before times before the acquisition. I'm definitely not one of them. I think it's clear if you walk into Whole Foods, the innovation, the accessibility, the pricing is exactly where I want to be. And I feel it's a net positive. That's my personal opinion. Many will disagree. Some will disagree. What do you say directly to the skeptics who think of Whole Foods as truly just part of Amazon and Amazon Prime? It's an interesting question because there are still so many people that are not aware that Whole Foods Market is part of the family of Amazon.

54:21I think during the pandemic, and I keep going back to this, we were able to provide delivery to your home of high-quality products to help all of us navigate that time. And that partnership wouldn't have been available had it not been a part of the Amazon family. And I think we've learned a lot from the Amazon partners, and they've learned a lot from us. And I have 100 percent faith that our team members will continue to innovate and be inspired in a way that will propel Whole Foods Market ongoing. We're excited about our growth opportunities. We're excited we've had the opportunity to invest in prices with the Amazon partnership and also be able to grow our business in a way that I think John Mackey had a dream that he wanted to have multiple outlets.

55:20And there are so many evolutions along the way that have helped us to achieve that, and Amazon's one of those. Yeah. Well, let's stick with pricing because there's a perception versus reality thing happening here. And I think the old timers will think of Whole Foods as being premium and having premium pricing. I think the Amazon acquisition definitely led to a real strategy to get prices down, to make it feel like it's a daily driver for your groceries. And of course, this is all in a world where inflation and just grocery costs are escalating rapidly. So how is Amazon helping Whole Foods keep the prices low?

56:00And what is the reality with the pricing structure and the costs of these products at Whole Foods? The investment that Amazon has enabled us to provide to the customers translated to over or around 25 percent of the products that we offer in any specific environment to be at a cost that our customers should have a great awareness, provide good value for the quality of the product. And I think that was very important because of the perception that high-quality products are out of reach for many. I think you always pay for the quality of a product, and agriculture costs are high, and honoring the cost being what it is is also a recognition that everyone should have.

56:56I think we spend the least amount for our money for many countries for products that are so high quality. And by working in the Amazon environment, giving us the ability of that investment to really communicate our position around that has leveraged our opportunity to create awareness of other values that weren't being recognized. because one might get caught up in a product price of a certain item and think that's the way it is across the entire store. So I think we've been able to navigate to a perception where you could come and shop with us as a daily shop and have the highest quality products in any environment.

57:44We're really proud of that. How are you dealing with inflation, though? I mean, it's clearly, even with this strategy of lowering prices 25 % and having real value, because I agree, You walk into Whole Foods, lots of prices that will beat Walmart and the key foods of the world. There's no doubt, at least in urban markets where I shop. But still, the prices are going up. I mean, it's a big – and we're not just talking about eggs here. We're talking about everything. How do you think about that on the corporate level, about this time where grocery – the grocery bill is just higher, frankly. And we're not lowering prices 25 percent.

58:19Prices across the store – 25 percent of the store were lower. Got it. So if we have 100 ,000 items in a store, which would be an average size, if you think that would be a lot of items, that wouldn't be the exact cost reduction. Having said that, I think that we're all in a situation where we're having to navigate all of the impact of whether it be the impact of costs because of aviary flu or other natural disasters, climate change, the impact of that and shorter growing cycles, also hurricanes. I think of all the things that have really impacted food costs. It's not one specific thing, but having the awareness of that and being able to leverage the partnerships to provide products that meet the needs of the customer, I think that's what's important.

59:17And just having the awareness to be able to have partnerships that we can navigate until we're clear about what the direction is. I mean, everyone's concerned about inflation, whether it's in food costs or housing costs or car costs, whatever that may be. I think we all have a greater sensitivity and awareness around it at this point in time. Yeah, great sentiment there. And I think there's no solution, right, when we're talking about all these factors, particularly climate change. So we know that the growing season are getting shorter. We know whole crops are being lost. And ultimately, the yields are down, which raises price inherently.

59:54So something to always keep in mind, listeners, when you're shopping, it's not just the big tariff word, which is thrown around a lot. There's a lot of other factors that affect the grocery store pricing. I want to ask you about the new Whole Foods Market Daily Shop, which has just opened in New York. Big move for Whole Foods to kind of think about where you can slot these stores into unique spaces that maybe couldn't hold the full footprint. And thinking about Whole Foods as a quicker place to shop. I've not been yet, at least as of this recording. And I look forward to visiting because I think it's a cool way to think about retail and especially in places like New York City.

1:00:32How did you develop this shop idea? Well, I think it was just a natural evolution. Whole Foods Market had been experimenting with other types of shops and formats. We had very large formats in the Atlanta area, for example, and we had experimented with smaller shop formats. that the expectations of the customer didn't really meet their needs. But this daily shop really geared to the convenience factor and being in my neighborhood. I want to get in and out. I have expectations on the certain quality of food I'd want. And I can't wait for you to go in there. They're not terribly large, but they're large enough to meet the needs of the customer in that environment.

1:01:20and the assortment is geared towards that customer in a way that we're really proud of. So I can't wait for you to get into one. Yeah, so take us through an experience when you're walking in. What are you buying at a daily shop that you maybe aren't seeing at a full Whole Foods? I think you're buying everything that you see in a daily shop, you may see in a Whole Foods, but you're more focused on it, right? If there's a table of fresh raspberries, you're going to notice that because there's not 20 tables of things as would be in a larger shop. So we're focused really on having seasonal availability, high priority products, and shopping if you want a fresh loaf of bread, that's there.

1:02:06And what do I want from produce to cook? And what cuts of meat do I want? We're not going to have the butcher there that's going to further process or someone behind the cheese counter. But our goal is to have an assortment that meet the needs of the customer and still have that new creative product, maybe the new dessert, the new soup, the new health product that you want. And you can get in and out. And I imagine you're thinking about people who just want to buy dinner, who really just want to pick up a bunch of products and cook dinner or either just have a great pre-made meal. Or even a snack like you were talking about when we were on the floor, right?

1:02:48Just having something quick and easy and know it's healthy. You're not picking up something that has a bunch of additives. So just being in a position to provide and service the needs of the customer in that environment. We're really excited about the opportunity to open a lot more of these to be able to meet our customers' convenience needs where they are and have the highest quality product. Well, I want to close and ask you about – I think it's a pretty cool part of your job is you take executives, your colleagues, including CEO Jason Buckel, around the world and you kind of show them your world, Kathy.

1:03:30You take them to producers. You take them to restaurants. It's got to be pretty fun. That's great. Taking anyone but it's – I'm a part of Jason. Jason's world. This program In the Field with Jason was created to provide team members the opportunity to meet Jason and Jason to really show who he is and his commitment to agriculture. So Jason grew up in Wisconsin. His grandparents were dairy farmers. His dad was a cheesemaker, and he's really in tune to the land and the culture of food. So I had the opportunity to be a part of a trip in the field with Jason, and we went to Italy. So I had that opportunity to share so many of the wonderful experiences through my history in Italy with 16 of our team members that were from our stores.

1:04:25And to be able to say, the Parmigiano-Reggiano that you offer the customers in your stores, we're going to get the ability to see that being made. and Italian sparkling water and balsamic vinegar. That was quite an experience. And then just to share a meal with someone, the knowledge and the rapport that one gains is not to be, you know, minimized because even when we were together briefly in Las Vegas, had we had a meal, it would have been a whole different experience. So I think that type of sharing and connection also provides the ability for the team members to understand Jason's commitment to the highest level position in the company and also leading a worldwide grocery for Amazon, that ongoing commitment to agriculture and our products, our producers, and staying in touch with them.

1:05:24And what are you guys talking about when you have like team members at different levels and you're in Italy and you've got some wine flowing, you know, the truths are coming out. What are you guys talking about? We're talking about the food and talking about, wow, there's a face to a product and understanding that food is a culture, especially in Italy. You've been to Italy, so you know. And so many parts of what we're trying to create in Whole Foods Market is to bring that culture of food and respect for food to an environment and a shared space. and really inspire the team member and the customers to really continue to explore with us.

1:06:04Do you have any more trips planned? Yes, we have one in Iceland that's going on. So everyone is very excited about that. And a few more we're announcing. And one thing we're doing, we're taking it further, is that our operational areas are also doing trips to areas where farms in there. For example, there was a trip to a farm right out of Pittsburgh, and that really resonates because if a team member's in the store, they may not have that opportunity. So the ability to really share that with the leadership and meet a leader of a company that maybe you only see them on conference calls or in an email communication really creates a level of loyalty and trust and a sincerity around we are food people and we care about the farmers.

1:06:57Well, I love this conversation, Kathy. I love the tour as well. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure. I look forward to doing a daily shop with you.

1:07:15This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter To keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste