636: Life at the Top of the Masthead with Food & Wine Editor in Chief Hunter Lewis

28:12Yeah, we had Jeff Gordnier on the show to talk about that great piece. And just won a Beard Award. and we assigned that story to Jeff Gornier and to George McCallman because we were starting the Food Wine Classic in Charleston and we wanted to invest in the community and we want to invest in telling the stories of Gullah Geechee food culture and how do you tell the story of 400 years of history and how do you talk about slavery and how do you talk about foodways and so we thought about narrowing it down to like the smallest thing possible and that was a grain of rice. And so Jeff and George went down to Charleston, came back with incredible material, turned it into this beautiful story.

29:04But the purpose of this also was figuring out how to bring this to life on stage. So we debuted the story at Kwame Unwachi's family reunion event and we had a panel conversation about rice. And then we brought it to life in Charleston on the stage and we had a similar conversation with different people. The energy in the room and in an audience at the family reunion where it was probably 95 % black versus the energy in room in Charleston where the story was based, where that room was maybe 75 % white, was so different. You know, we were in this place where the story was created, where, you know, not far from the port of Charleston where an estimated 40 % of all enslaved people came through.

29:47I mean, that energy was so palpable. And then we brought the story to life at a brunch the next day where a lot of the Gulli Geechee chefs, their dishes were on the table. And so it really opened my eyes and gave me goosebumps and made me think about how you can create journalism in a real life setting and bring it to life to the stage in a different way. and I'm geeking out about this right now because for me, I'm like, oh, wait a minute. Oh, this is how we can do these events in a meaningful way and it's like the same thing about like bringing Gramercy Tavern and their 30th anniversary to life in Aspen.

30:26Aspen is where Danny Meyer and Tom Collicchio had the idea to launch Gramercy. So let's bring Gramercy back to Aspen 30 years later and do a special dinner. And so this is the stuff that I'm really, really invested in thinking about doing at our events down the road i'm into it i fully agree that having an offline strategy is super important for a publication i also think that um to separate the journalism from the event is smart and also allow the folks who are participating in the journalism who are obviously giving their time and resources to tell a story um are then maybe getting you know there's some monetization there they're they're being uh paid for their work so you can share in that a bit, which I think is ethically sound.

31:06Yes. If you tell the story in one setting and then you have the event in the other, I strive for that. Yeah. And it's about not doing a drive-by event. It's not a pop-up event. You're investing in a community. Yeah. You're investing in local voices and centering those people and, you know, letting them lead it too. I'm into it. I love that strategy and I hope you do more of it. And I'm sure you have some other cities you're going to launch festivals in. You don't have to tell me. I'm not going to push you because I think. Yeah, I think I think we're good with two for now. You're good for now. All right.

31:38But, you know, we'll see. OK, well, I want to talk about magazine covers because I think it's a huge part of your job is to make that cover work. I worked in magazines early in my career and cover meetings were intense, like especially cover line meetings and just thinking about photography. And I think food and wine is really on a hot streak with covers. I love the July issue. issue. It's a really tight shot, a three-quarter, beautiful food styling, and you're on fire. They're looking great. Hunter, I want to ask you, what are some things you look for in a cover? And I want to know the absolute no's for covers for Food & Wine.

32:12There are not a lot of no's. Like blue food is cool. I don't believe in any of that. I think the pandemic taught us a lot in that we were all at home making this magazine via Zoom, you know, and you really just had to let it rip. You had to get off your high horse and really like make decisions quickly, not belabor things. And we sold a lot of magazines during that period by doing things in a different way. So it made me relax a bit more about covers. You know, I'll say this. We're not making like money hand over fist on newsstand. Sell through is less important. Yeah, newsstand is so different now than it used to be.

32:57And I remember being in those same kind of meetings, the cover line meetings. You know, I've sat through dozens of hours of focus groups, you know, 15 layers of approvals on covers. And it's a much more simple process now. Good. Is it delicious? Does it convey the theme of that issue in a meaningful way? Are home cooks going to want to make it? Can they readily identify what it is? You know, so I'd say nine issues, 10 issues a year. It's super straightforward. It's seasonal. It's colorful. Come up with a compelling main line that helps sell that, sell that food and that cover. and then a couple times a year we really like take a bigger swing and we go for it and maybe it's less commercially viable but you know we're in a restaurant and we're shooting and it's more about the romance it's more about the feeling it's much more about the zeitgeist of what's happening in culture today but this July cover with the Red Boat Fish Sauce family's noodle bowl it's one of my favorites and one of the cool things talking about bringing journalism to life at events.

34:09Like this is the cover that's blown up large in the grand tasting tents in Aspen. And then we had Kwong and his family from Red Boat come and pour their Cabernet Sauvignon. We had Red Boat Micheladas. We had this noodle bowl on offer for all the consumers of the event. So yet another way for people to meet the people in the pages of Food & Wine in real life settings. And that was super meaningful because Redbook really changed my cooking life. Oh, I agree. I think I wrote you a note before this interview. You know, I got to go to Fuquok and spend time with Kong and his fam there around the same time you discovered it in 2011.

34:48And I agree with you fully. It's a very smart editorial point of view for that product. I think if you go back in time, you know, fish sauce was maligned. And a lot of people were used to the squid products and really not that pure fish sauce from Fuquok that isn't using fillers and all that. And also it's a flavor profile, right? Fish sauce has really entered the lexicon in a serious way. I mean, fish sauce, Brussels sprouts. I mean, we remember the days when - Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a David Chang dish, probably his - Game changer. Game changer, truly. And now we find fish sauce everywhere.

35:20So it was really savvy to focus on it. What did you write in your editor's letter? Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, so 2011, when Red Boat came about, I had been cooking with three crabs and squid bran And Andrew Nguyen was an early teacher for me in that Sabur test kitchen and working through her recipes and really beginning to embrace flavor profiles from Southeast Asia through recipes first. You know, not through travel first, but figuring out these recipes and ratios and the way that you balance flavor. and then Red Boat comes along and my daughter was born and I was trying to figure out shortcut ways to deliver big flavor at home without a lot of effort you know and here was this beautiful super pure ingredient that like you just can taste the quality right off the bat and it just balanced so well and so I used it for everything from Nwak Chom to you know seasoning pho but then it really started to become infinite in the application.

36:24And, you know, replacing anchovies in places or, you know, then just adding a dash here, a dash there. To marinara, to a red sauce. Everything. And so you fast forward to now, my daughter is now 13 and she and my 11-year-old can't articulate it, but they know when it's not there. And they're sitting at the table and say, Dad, something's missing. and they're actually getting that way with MSG now too. Like if we make a chicken broth and it doesn't have a pinch of MSG in it, it doesn't have that lip smacking quality, like something's missing here. You forgot something. And for them, it's funny to see it through their eyes and through their palates at 11 and 13.

37:09Like they can't articulate what it is, but they're so used to it in my cooking now that they could spot it. I love that we've evolved to an era where MSG is actually considered a game changer. Aji Nomoto is one of your many game changers and you're doing something that has been discussed in food writing and on podcasts a lot. So I don't think we need to refresh that MSG is not bad for you. It is in a lot of our foods and it really helps home cooks bring flavor. But about the game changers, Hunter, I want to know what's that edit meeting like? I mean, you have such a cool list. You've got date pick coffee from Otomo, a little sesame hummus.

37:47You talk about right about freight farms and then Sheila Johnson from Florida is profiled. And it's a really interesting mix. I mean, you could have gone in many directions. You landed on these. What makes a game changer? A game changer has to be a person or a company who is changing the way we eat or drink or travel, you know, and that's a pretty broad definition. So the editorial process led by Amelia Schwartz. Shout out to Amelia. we take submissions from all of the food writers and chefs in our orbit and freelancers and we put together a long list and we meet and we meet and we meet and in some ways it I talked about having that that Savara DNA within the pages of food and wine it's a little bit like making the old Cyber 100, but you're picking 15.

38:45I see it. I see it. Yeah. You know, and then we filter it through our content pillars and the different categories we cover from chefs and restaurants to home cooking and recipes to home goods, to what's at the supermarket, to what's happening in the travel space. And we sort of break it down and make sure we have representation across those broad categories. And then, you know, it's a note when we see it. It's, is this interesting and how does this balance this other thing? And then are there enough items on the list that people can actually go out to the supermarket and buy without having a special order?

39:28or if it's somebody like Sheila Johnson, who we've gotten great exposure to over the years in supporting the family reunion event, you see Sheila lead her teams and you feel the hospitality in her spaces and you see what she's doing in terms of giving platforms and mentorship to black chefs across the country. She's undoubtedly a game changer. so it's really about trying to figure out that editorial mix um you know and it's it's it's gut level decisions but also we have to quantify like how is this person or company actually changing the game what is their scale um how are they disrupting a particular category in an industry and um so it really takes about six months to to develop so if if you've got any recommendations for 26 we're taking a man listen to our podcast yeah we have so many on the show many guests and things mentioned between Liza and I on three things.

40:28Where are you at with Thanksgiving right now? We're recording this in mid-July. Are you wrapped on your cover image? Just shot our cover yesterday. Yesterday? Oh. Yesterday in Birmingham. We shoot a lot of our photography in the food studios in Birmingham. Yeah. Got a really talented team there. So that's in the bag. Good for you. It's a good feeling, I bet. It's a good feeling. And then we're actually going to reverse engineer. We're going to shoot another cover try for the October issue, the issue before in New York tomorrow. So, you know, Thanksgiving is a trip. I mean, if you work in this business long enough, as you know, by the time Thanksgiving actually comes around, you're so over it.

41:11As an editor, are you kidding me? You've been cooking it and talking about it all summer in the swelter of July. You're smelling turkey stock mid-July. God, if we never have to run another turkey recipe ever again. But, you know, the other cool thing about it, though, is that it's a singular focus. It's like it is the feasting season. It's a celebration. You know, people are always looking for that additional side dish or that dessert or that bottle of wine. So, you know, our aim is to give good weight and give good service and do it in a warm and hospitable way. So that's what Thanksgiving is all about.

41:49I think food and wine has the power, and maybe with some help from like BA and maybe taste, we could like create a new food holiday. I feel like we could like – Can we please? I mean please. And do not allow turkey in the room. Yeah, no turkey. Let's – I mean like it could be like March. I know we've got like St. Patrick's Day, which is okay, fine. But I mean we could go there. A March festivus? There's definitely like a March. Like you are still cooking through winter. Spring is on the horizon. The ramps are popping. And to me, that's the best time to be a home cook, especially when you're stuck in many parts of the country that don't have covered with snow.

42:26Like you're starting to get that early produce, but you still it's cold. We're still in our homes. I think like mid-March, that is like when our food holidays should be. Well, and that's when people are craving to be together because you're coming off of the jag of the December holidays and New Year's. And then you hunker down and you're, you know, you're, you've got shorter days and you're cooking your tail off through the winter and everybody wants to gather. So, yeah, I'm all for it. What do we call this thing? I mean, it's like an Ides of March like, you know, like let's rebrand the Ides of March, which has a lot of history and negativity.

43:02But like, I don't know, like we could riff. And can we not do St. Paddy's Day? No, it's not St. Paddy's Day. Like let Ireland have that. That's theirs. this is like US based food holiday mid-March I think we can invent something I think something with like new produce I think something with going to restaurants I'll bring the magnums of wine bring the mags because we're not in like dry January we're not thinking about that we're actually having mags yeah let's go offline about that one we can all come together we could get all the teams together I'll bring all the green spring vegetables that are growing in the deep south that are not growing here It's like bring produce to your friends and family in the Northeast and the Midwest who are still under snow.

43:43Maybe we'll go ramp hunting with Alan Benton. Oh. Off the side of a highway in eastern Tennessee. And that was one of the best cooking moments of my life is going and gathering ramps with Alan and his wife Sharon and a bunch of chefs. And then pulling into a little state park. Yeah. Washing the ramps in this creek and grilling ramps over charcoal and Alan and Sharon rendering all this bacon and ham fat and cooking the ramps in that. It was like – that was such a special day. That's Tennessee, right? That's Tennessee. That's Tennessee. I feel like domestic ham – I mean, Europe has taken over the domestic ham business.

44:28to domestic. And I feel like with this protein era that we live in, where protein is more important than ever, like buy more domestic ham. Totally. I mean, we talked about that game changing Brussels sprouts recipe from Dave Chang. You remember when he put that country ham tasting on, I think it was Sambar. Vividly with the mayo, with the instant coffee mayo. Yes. Yeah. It tasted like a little bit like dirkies. Yeah. But yeah, I think it had the espresso powder in it. Yeah, it had the espresso powder in it. That's a recipe from the Momo book, which I've made many times with grapeseed oil and just like a couple, like a little bit of spice.

45:05Colonel Newsom's ham, Lady Edison. Remember that menu that they had there? Because like he's doing Momo and like he's known for like the buns and of course ramen at the other shop. But then you like roll up and there's a ham tasting. Yeah, Sambar, that was my jam. You know, like 10, 30, 11 at night, boozy, like two hour meal, and you never knew what you're going to get. You could get vintage bourbons for like$7 a glass. Like these things with like if you get a number for under 20, you're lucky in America now. Yeah, those were the days. I mean, it's sad about Sam. I'm still sad about that restaurant not being there.

45:42Well, I think what we talked about Kabawa, but what's happening there, you know, that is, It gets me really excited about the Momofuku empire. It's very true and well said, Hunter. I think that with the bar kabawa and the kabawa coming together, it feels fully Momo and having those different formats is what they're all about. And then with Paul and yeah, let's move away from Japan and move into the Caribbean and create this moment of excitement around the cuisine. It's very well said. I mean, I am so excited about the rise of and the celebration of Afro-Caribbean cuisine in America today. I mean, what's happening across the country is bananas.

46:29It's a lot like, I mean, you are deeply immersed in Korean food. And I mean, the way it's completely taken over in New York City, especially. but I think about these restaurants like Tatiana and Khan and Bridgetown Roti and you know we think about like Bintu Atelier and Charleston and the future is very very bright for this cuisine. It's very true and I have to shout out Dubu House which the new complex on 32nd Street, three restaurants it's so exciting to see that among all the fine dining that's opening with Korean in New York City Last question for Taste Check. Is there a city on your radar that we might not be thinking about in America?

47:14I'm putting you on the spot. We didn't prep for this, but I would like to get your take. Really putting me on the spot here. I know, right? I like to guide you through these a little bit. You know, I think Charleston, South Carolina right now, and I'm not just saying this because we're invested in it with the Foodman Classic in Charleston, But I think what's happening in Charleston and being able to trace the arc of cuisine in Charleston since I've been going since I was in high school, it gives me some good perspective. And I think there's a really cool 3.0 movement happening in that city right now where the line cooks that trained under Mike Latta and Sean Brock and some of the OGs are now opening up their own spaces.

47:57You know, people like Dan O 'Hindes at Vern's. Yeah. You know, Jason Stanhope is not, you know, he's not part of the New Guard, but what he's doing out in Sullivan's Island. I mentioned Bento Atelier, Cultura, the whole barbecue movement that's happening. This third wave barbecue movement that's happening with Shuai Wang and other folks in Charleston. It's a really exciting place to eat right now. Yeah. And for the size of the community, it's a very small place. It is. We know about it because it's so legendary in food, but it's a tiny place. It's like a very tiny Manhattan, like the way that the peninsula juts out into the water, you know, and there are the OGs there.

48:40But I think also in thinking about, you know, talked about this before, like centering Gullah Gigi food and Gullah Gigi dishes. I think we're just scratching the surface and thinking about how those dishes should be codified and who should be honored when they're cooked and like what that legacy is. You know, Jeff and George and the City of Rice made a really good point. Like when you go to New Orleans, all of these dishes are codified. They're celebrated. You know, you've got these dishes that are canonical. The same thing should happen in Charleston, too. You know, like red rice and crab rice and purloo, dishes that have been cooked by Black Hooks for centuries.

49:30Like, that's what I'm looking for in Charleston and the next wave of really celebrating that and putting those names on the menu. The festival is in the fall? It's in November, yeah. Right during the time of fall harvest and where the oysters are really, really good. So we're going to be cooking outside a lot. Very cool. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes?

50:05Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed. And I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot.

50:44There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi. And I pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar. It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Well, Hunter, this is Taste.

51:26We asked guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Ready. The best fruit. Best fruit is Satsumas from the deep south. Is there a season for this? Starts in late September, depending on the variety. Gets really, really good. And that fruit starts to turn from yellow and green to bright orange around November time. It is the sweetest citrus. It is so damn good. Incredible with mezcal and tequila. And dressings and salads. And if that's the one fruit I could ship friends, it would be the satsuma. The worst vegetable?

52:06There's no bad vegetable. I didn't grow up eating a lot of vegetables. But I really, really got turned on by them when I started cooking a barbudo and going to the green market every day. I'd say the vegetable that's not for me that I just have not been able to really enjoy is bitter melon. And that's on me. Yeah, it's on you. It's everyone's taste. I like that. What is your typical breakfast? Two espressos. No protein, no grains, just espressos. I just don't have any consistency in breakfast. You know, it might be toast. It might be scrambled eggs. But it's not often that I just seek it out and say, oh, I'm going to do this thing.

52:47I'm jealous of people that eat the same thing every morning and, you know, they have a routine. You're a night person. Not really. I'm just not a huge breakfast person. You're just not a breakfast person. Okay. I was trying to get in to unpack this double espresso. No, there's really very little thought. I'm like a total gorilla in the morning. Nobody wants to talk to me, and I go and pull an espresso and sort of wake up and get some exercise. And maybe I'll eat a piece of toast on the way to work. But it's not something that I give a lot of thought to. It's the EIC breakfast. That's not really the answer you're looking for.

53:21No, it's fine. You're being honest. We appreciate honesty here. The best dessert? I'd say it's a tie. I love an affogato. Speaking of espresso, so dead simple. And I love bitter, except for bitter melon. And then a recipe that we published a long time ago, Nadine Rizzepi's Walnut Bars. Oh, cool. They're these incredibly dense, super rich bars like brownies that you make with an ungodly amount of ground walnuts. So it's a ground walnut, walnut flour? Yeah. You make your own walnut flour by doing it. Like a homemade walnut flour is in the bind. You eat it like a brownie, but that with an unsweetened dollop of creme fraiche.

54:07Oh, yeah. It's probably in her cookbook. Great cookbook. The Dean's Cookbook. I really enjoyed that book when it was out. This is a big one for you. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. How about Cafe Nicholson, Edna Lewis, 1948? Mm-hmm. I mean, I am so taken with her cooking and her books. And, you know, I think my culinary roots through restaurants really, I look at Chez Panisse as a touchstone, you know, and that really opened my world to Elizabeth David and Richard Olney. And then I got exposed to Edna Lewis and her books are hands down some of my favorites. and I think being at Cafe Nicholson in the late 40s, early 50s and seeing like Marlon Brando and William Faulkner come through the door to eat this woman's cooking and to meet her, this like super stylish woman.

55:06I would love to be at that table. Gelb should just recreate it for our chef's table. He's just like go fiction and research it and just recreate that restaurant. Gelb, you've got the resources. Gelb could do that. He listens to the show. let's get him on that. A couple more. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Don't shoot me, people listening, but... Always a great start. My kids are obsessed with Chick-fil-A. And I'd say a Chick-fil-A sandwich. I don't know why they won't just call an Arnold Palmer an Arnold Palmer. You have to call it a Sunjoy. Isn't that just the estate? I think Liquid Death ran into some trouble.

55:43I think they're very protective about that. But yeah, they should call him an Arnold Palmer. The small restaurants call on Palmer, but the estate is litigious or something. A couple more. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Paris with my wife, Jen Davidson. I'm so taken by the place. It's so obvious, but eating in wine bars in Paris, places like Le Verre Vole, like spending a whole day, a long lunch in the markets, there's nothing better. Canal Saint Martin. Beautiful neighborhood. Love that call. Last one. Your favorite sandwich? favorite sandwich I would say it's a tie I'm gonna say Court Street Grocer's pork roll maybe not for breakfast maybe mid morning yeah okay and then before they close down the kitchen late at night fried bologna sandwich at Robert's Western World in Nashville Tennessee which is one of the most epic places in the world It's like this psychedelic honky tonk portal into another universe where the music is always good.

56:52The beers are really cold. And that fried bolognese sandwich is perfect in that setting. That's incredible. I've never thought of Robert's having food. That's like I've walked in and checked it out. It's an amazing place. What a great rack. What's the bread choice? For the sandwich? Yeah. For Robert's? Yeah. What are they doing? Squishy, unbranded, you know. Like the same kind of way you're going to want a smash burger. Yeah. You know, whatever that like squishy undefinable bun is. Yeah. And are there any condiments on it? Yellow mustard. Yellow mustard and a pickle, I would imagine. If you know, your face is.

57:29No, it's just, it's just straight up. Yeah. Fried bologna and squishy bun and yellow mustard and a cold beer and some world-class honky tonk band. That is such a sandwich. And weirdly like Beck's over in the corner dancing with himself and, you know, some other There's celebrities over here and, you know, a bachelorette party is over here falling down. What a wild place. I love that. I think on TikTok, I've seen some Robert's scenes. It's definitely a really cool place. Hunter, what a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Matt, this was a trip. Thanks, man.

58:06This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Barbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.