638: Meet Your New New York Times Restaurant Critic, Tejal Rao

26:44It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies.

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27:57It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. So let's move on to the times in 2016. The phone rings and they're calling. what's the conversation like? I believe the first person I spoke to at the Times was Sam, Sam Sifton.

28:44They were looking for a food reporter on the desk. And it was a really like the most exciting moment. I was so excited to think about reporting for the New York Times and to think about food stories for them. Yeah. I mean, I don't even know. You were like, okay, send me up. Let's go. Let's do it. Yeah. It was really exciting. What are those, before you moved to California, what is your reporting like at the time? So it's your early career like there? I'm trying to remember those stories because I had about two years in New York before I left. You know, I remember writing a profile of a street cart bender, like a halal cart bender.

29:22That was one of the, I feel like that was one of the pieces I was most excited to work on. But I was like, it was very local. I was doing a lot of New York stories, a lot of New York food stories. I wrote about a dog who was trained to sniff out a particular bacteria in honey beehives. Oh, yeah. You know, I really enjoyed that work. It wasn't all restaurant stories. So let's talk about moving to California, become the California restaurant critic. And it's a brand new state. You're covering the restaurants locally. But for the national publication, what's that like? That was a really it was really challenging.

30:05I mean, I was coming in as a New Yorker, you know, and so I think one of the very first pieces I did was. I was genuinely trying to figure out, you know, what does the L.A. restaurant scene mean and, you know, what are the what are the places that I need to go to to understand L.A.? And that was just a task I'd set for myself for weeks, kind of going to a bunch of older, kind of old school L.A. restaurants and then ended up turning that into a story. You know, places like like Dantana's and King Taco and places that maybe New York wouldn't take so seriously. And even like even people in L.A. kind of I mean, King Taco is not like a great taqueria, but it has history.

30:48You know, it's it has it helped me it helped me build context for California. for LA. Yeah. I mean, I love that you, in your discovery of this new city, you're writing about it along the way. I recall those stories were very interesting when you're covering, you know, these legendary places that maybe have, some have fallen off and not, but like you're kind of growing as we're reading. And I really appreciate that because it's not easy to do that in a city and a state where the locals are pretty protective. Yeah. And where they've had to be because there's been so many of those like you know completely misunderstanding LA stories to be fair I'm laughing it's like the parachute story in LA doesn't it like never plays well I I've like attempted to write about it and like I've like burned the cop burned the draft because it just doesn't work um but you're a local now you consider yourself a local oh yeah for sure you feel that way um i want to ask you actually about a couple la stories or california stories uh and i'm going to link to these in the show notes because they're really terrific and it shows this you know you evolving as a reporter and just reporting about la in california um you wrote about hard shell tacos i love the piece and just giving respect for the hard shell tacos and profiling taco fiesta in highland park which i think is a terrific place what was that piece like oh i you know that that piece.

32:16There are so many things going on in there. It's one of those stories where I learned a lot through researching and writing and interviewing people. There's something so magical about the hardshell taco, right? And I wanted to kind of take it out of the fast food narrative. Like, it doesn't really belong to Taco Bell, you know. And there is a version of it that, you know, deviated at one point when Taco Bell, when Glenn Bell reinvented it a little bit and changed the shell and, you know, made it a fast food item. But then it also like kept evolving on its own and also has this history from way before Taco Bell.

32:56So, you know, one of the things that, and I think like right before I started working on the stories, Tim Walls had like done this interview where he called it, he called it his white guy taco or something. Oh boy. And which Which is, you know, fair enough. No, it's his truth. That's Tim Walz's truth right there. Absolutely. But I talked to, I think, Stephen Alvarez, Dr. Alvarez, who told me, I'm paraphrasing a little, but he said something like the way we name that taco has kind of removed it from its history. And it is, in fact, like an expression of migration. You know, and I thought that was really beautiful specifically because that place in Highland Park is run by Suvit, who is a Thai immigrant who has like maintained this perfect artifact of like the hard shell taco for like 50 years.

33:46Yeah, it's like, you know, it's like kind of a beautiful. I like that taco. I don't love that taco, but I love that he has maintained it. you know, he's like protected this thing. What did you learn reporting about the Houston's French dip? You know, Houston's has been of great fascination to food writers and finding a unique angle I feel would be challenging because it's just been covered, but you had a great piece there. I'm like, what was my angle? Thank you. I, I, oh yeah, you know, so when I moved to the United States as a teenager. That was one of the restaurants that my family went to a couple times for a special occasion meal.

34:31And it was vastly, like it's such a representation of American service and American restaurant culture in the, in the nineties, you know, and, and, and, um, it was so exotic to my family. It was so foreign and weird. And, um, this piece was kind of, I was like excavating that experience and trying to understand what it is that appealed to us. Yeah. Because it was also a little, it was weird in that it was so pleasant. Oh, interesting. You know, like it was so, it was so pleasant and friendly and so different from, we had moved here from France, so different from, from European restaurants. So I was just as a different personality, you know.

35:16and also in reporting the piece I couldn't they don't have a PR team they don't do any marketing as far as I know yeah you never see a Houston they really kind of just erase themselves from their brand and it's really interesting that it it does still resonate so much with so many like chefs and food writers yeah I mean let's step into that is it because of the familiarity because of some of the elevated service points at Houston's. I think we think of that. Yeah, I think like despite the fact that it's so kind of corporate and generic and like pleasant, which are all things that can be good and bad, right?

35:53Yeah. But despite all of that, it's also so consistent, you know, it's so consistent. And I think that that's just like something to admire. Yeah, like the 12 cities it's in are probably more. You're going to get that consistent martini, that burger, that French dip, a steak, a salad. I mean, I would say Cheesecake Factory does a version of that. I'm really embarrassed to say I've not been to a Cheesecake Factory. Well, it sounds like you've got a review for you. I think the original is in L.A. Is it? Yeah, that tracks with me. There's so much chain and fast food history in L.A. Is chain part of your remit for this role?

36:36You know, it's not something I'm prioritizing. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. I'm much more interested in independent restaurants. There's plenty of other writers on the Times food desk to cover the chains and give it, you know, a critical review. I'm happy to hear that. I think that your unique role that you and Ligaya share should be, I personally think, should be elevating independent restaurants. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the reviews. I feel like we should start with Maureen Nozumi. you write quote you won't find the spectacle of the bromocasse no stunts or swagger no torch to wag you no flurry of truffles no caviar bumps no grand gesture designed to convince you that a couple of hours at this softly buzzing counter in the sawtell neighborhood shoulder to shoulder with a handful of strangers is worth your time or the 250 dollar price tag yet it was worth the price tag terrific review and i loved the choice what brought you to it i thank you i i you know I've had a lot of, I think everyone has like a lot of these omakase experiences that sort of blur into one another that can feel really generic, you know, almost like they're being replicated from the same, you know, original meal or something.

37:51And Mori Nozomi felt really special for a bunch of different reasons. I mean, just in terms of the quality of the ingredients and the technique and the finesse of the food. But also the style of the omakase. It's not just super fast-paced sushi piece, sushi nigiri. She mixes in these more complex dishes and vegetables and seafood cooking kind of beyond the sushi that make it feel really distinct. And she also does like a tea service at the end of the meal and makes her own wagashi. And it's really, really extraordinary without being like big and loud, you know. And you tap into the idea of the omakase because there's clearly like a business objective with the omakase.

38:45If you're on Resi and you're looking in New York, you're going to find so many of these restaurants. Clearly, there's like a structure that it makes sense to do omakase. But a lot of times these omakase restaurants are faceless and nameless and not worth it. What do you think about the future of the omakase? I mean, as a genre, I think maybe it's about to kind of like it's peaked. Yeah, yeah. But I hope the people who who keep kind of expanding on the tradition and changing it and making it like who have a really distinct point of view keep keep doing it. I like that sentiment a lot because I think there's this wonderful set menu Japanese sushi concepts restaurants in our in our world.

39:29maybe the branding of it needs like a little bit of a tweak yeah from a case whoever first wrote that that's pretty great and i feel like uh i think it was pete wells pete wells yeah yeah let's give it credit then pete wells uh first wrote that term and it makes a lot of sense um it's like thinking about let's go for omakase as like literally something people say yeah but i think the net positive is that it's it's uh introducing japanese cooking to a younger audience and that's that's a cool thing yeah but yeah maybe peaking a little bit but for your first review you went to new orleans and akamaya and and i feel like that piece also said something about you as a critic and it's not in your hometown you were clearly there months ahead of time tell us about what you found there i had heard a bunch about this restaurant you know it's not like um it's not like I put it on the map.

40:28It's a restaurant I'd heard about and Ana Castro seemed really interesting. Her work seemed really interesting to me. And it was one of maybe 10, eight or 10 places that I went to when I went to New Orleans. I wasn't sure what my first review would be. I was doing tons of traveling. And that restaurant just seemed really, you know, really, really interesting in the way that it was drawing a connection between Mexico and Louisiana, you know, and it had a really strong sense of place. And it was also so different from the other, because there's a lot of great seafood restaurants in New Orleans, really, really different from the other ones that I went to.

41:09I was so excited to write about it. Yeah. And so you're visiting New Orleans and you're basically scouting a bunch of restaurants for future coverage and you have to land on one. And what's up with New Orleans these days? You just did the work. What's exciting about it? Oh, my gosh. New Orleans is one of my favorite food cities in the country. It's not even just food. I mean, it's just a great— There are cities where when you go as a tourist or as a journalist, there are places that really do make you instantly feel at home, and New Orleans is one of those places. I just love being there. It's amazing.

41:48And I feel like New Orleans, it's hard to channel the terroir of New Orleans outside of New Orleans. You see some restaurants open up in bigger cities trying to do it. And they fall short sometimes because it doesn't have that, you know, that grit, that sweat and the terroir of the flavors of the grilling of the seafood. And just the culture there is so unique. It's so singular. It's also one of those places where, like, I feel like I've been going to Pesce for so long. You know, there's certain classic restaurants you can go back to over and over and over again and see how they're changing and growing.

42:22And I find that really satisfying. Well, let's talk about stars a little bit. I guess when you're asked for a star rating system, how do you interpret the system that The Times is set up for you? I mean, the system is, I think, very open to interpretation because it's just each category is just defined by a word, you know. So there are no actual rules in place. So Ligai and I are often kind of talking it through, you know, and for ourselves and just to kind of to figure it out. We are actually trying to put words to it right now as we want to we have a Google Doc going where we're trying to figure out, you know, if this if this if this thing is inconsistent, can you be a choose to our restaurant?

43:09You know, if you is it it's not just about the food, it's about it's about like the restaurant as a whole. Or is it just or or are people thinking that, you know, because we're also projecting what people are imagining the stars are about. I know. And there's like a lot of you could say dollars associated with stars in restaurant groups. But how do you break some of those conventions? Like, is it possible to be a four star restaurant if you're not fine dining? I don't know if the answer is yes, but like I would like to figure that out. And you've really articulated the beauty of having this co-critic system to have a sounding board, to have collaboration, because it's a lonely role when you're at the top and it's only your voice.

43:57I mean, talk about being in your head a little bit. Not that you don't have those moments as a critic. I'm sure you do. But it sounds like you and the guy are talking. Are you reading each other's copy each week? I'm not reading before it's published. I read when it's published like everyone else. But I like look forward to reading Lingaya. And then I will also say I feel like it keeps me on my toes a little bit. You know, she's so good at what she does. It like motivates me and it makes me want to be better. I think it's a beautiful thing that you can collaborate but have uniquely different voices and styles and taste.

44:32It's such a good decision by the times to have both of you at the top. I just have to say that. I agree. Just to cover more restaurants. And that leads to a question I posed to La Gaia, and I'm not sure if it's been sussed out. But in the announcement, it was implied that New York would have more voices writing critically about restaurants, perhaps with stars or just in general. You know, Hungry City was such a force when it was around. And, you know, I've been saying it for a while. It'd be great to see that return. Do you have any insight into how New York is going to be covered more rigorously?

45:03I don't have a lot of details. I do know that we're going to have a couple of people writing, you know, like shorter reviews, capsule reviews, which is really exciting. It kind of I mean, for a million reasons, there aren't enough. You know, we I think like New York, there are so many great restaurants. They need more reviews. People want to know about them. But also I just think like. Critics need more spaces where they can write, you know. Yes. Like I think back to when I first started, there were so many, so many restaurant critics that you could read every week or spaces where, you know, food criticism would appear in like different forms, even if it wasn't a traditional review.

45:46And there aren't as many, you know, and if you're coming up and you're interested in that kind of work, like you need to be able to start somewhere. That's a great point about thinking about the journalism industry. On the flip side, too, I think for the restaurant industry, an industry we care deeply about collectively on the show, it's almost like a public service. I've said it before for restaurants to have staffed, funded, objective critics paying attention and giving restaurants their deserved space in print. And they hear that The Times is investing in more of that. It's super heartening.

46:27I wish more publishers would do that because, you know, we live in this food world where restaurants drive culture in all forms of culture. You go to any podcast or TV show and they're talking about where they're dining out. But we're not investing in the coverage of restaurants. Yeah. I don't I wish I knew what the I wish I had more details or I knew the timeline. I don't. It's OK. I mean, I just I'm just heartened by that. Yeah. I mean, do you agree? Do you think that restaurant reviewing is a bit of a public service for the industry? I think it can be. Yeah. I don't know if that's that you mean for the restaurant industry.

46:59Yeah. Yeah. Like and you don't have to respond concretely with your role. You have to be separate. But I think as the industry becomes more and more centered in culture, as young people discover the beauty of dining out and cultural cachet given to a visit to a restaurant, I think that there should be publications staffed and funded to assess them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I'm writing, I'm not writing for the restaurant. You know, I'm writing for the reader. Yeah. But I'm still thinking about. It's like you can't completely remove yourself from that, you know, definitely. So what's it like being back in New York?

47:44Just being back here. You're doing a bunch of media, which is great. It's got to be different being on camera now. It's weird being on camera. It's wonderful being back in New York. Yeah. I, you know, I love Los Angeles and it's exactly where I want to be. But my heart like aches when I'm in New York. Like New York is, it's like a person who I love and broke up with and will always love. Do you know what I mean? You said it so well. I absolutely do. Wow. Is your next review totally like loaded and ready to go? We're recording this on a Tuesday. It is filed. I've filed it. Okay. I have not gotten edits back yet.

48:28Tell me about that. Like I had some great insight into her editing process and I think she was saying she writes through the night. What's it like? Like, you know, you get the edits back and you, I mean, the thing about this, this column that you guys write, it, it never ends. Your deadline is always there. It's like, that's the beauty of it. And that's kind of the, you know, existential like dread that I experience every other week too. It's beautiful because it like gives my work and my life structure and meaning. Yeah. And then it's, it's horrifying because as soon as you file, like, oh, time to do.

49:04I mean, every columnist, everyone with a regular deadline, you know, it's like I need it. I need the deadline. And also, I can't believe it's here again. Are you a quick rewriter or do you have to take a little while on those edits? It depends on the piece, depends on the number of edits. Once they're in, I like to turn it around as quickly as possible. in part because I want to kind of, I want to start on the next piece, you know? Yeah. It's really hard to be working on, for my brain, it's really hard to compartmentalize and work on two pieces at once. Oh, so you're pretty linear with that. I try, no, I'm not really allowed to be, but I would like to be.

49:46Yeah. Yeah. You've got like notes and you've got a runway of things you want to write. Yeah. And then of course the two of you have to negotiate just getting like the flavor of the column has to kind of flow a little bit But now that's this new style, I mean, you're rewriting the history of this column by, do you guys just get on the phone and go over your next three or four? We're on the phone a lot. We also have a shared document. But I think mostly we want to talk to each other. You know, we don't just want to put something in the doc. We talk. That's really cool. Did you guys know each other before the roles?

50:22We did. We were kind of, we read each other's work starting in probably like 2012. I was a huge fan of Legayas, and I would wait for her column every week when she was writing Hungry City. And we went out for meals. We started going out together to eat maybe in, I think, 2012, 2013. Fun. Maybe it was later than that. But, yeah, we've known each other for a while. Well, Tejal, I can't wait to have you back in a year or so. I just want to check in with you and talk about your work on our show. It's so important, and I just can't wait. On This Is Taste, we asked guests about the discerning taste.

50:55So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check. Are you ready? Yeah. The best fruit? Mangoes. Do you have a type or style or season? I mean, Indian mangoes and season are great, but I'll take like a really beautiful like mango from California as well. Thank you. You know? Got it. The worst vegetable? I don't think there are bad vegetables. I think there's like bad cooks, you know? You get a pass. Yes, you wrote a newsletter with vegetable in the title, and that is the correct answer. So I'm going to give you that. I don't want to eat raw bell peppers, though.

51:31Oh, yeah. No one does. Yeah. That's a terrible vegetable. So thank you for answering it after I give you the out. What is your typical breakfast? I do not eat breakfast. Really? Interesting. Yeah. I do like two coffees in a row and then lunch later on. Are we talking espresso machine, Chemex? What are we doing? Yeah, espresso machine. Espresso with like a tiny bit of foam milk. I got it. But then lunch, that's when you go to town. Yeah. Usually working. I had a really brief phase of being a breakfast person. Sorry, you don't want long answers on these, right? No, you can expand. Oh, is this the rapid fire?

52:06It's a total bullshit premise because definitely it becomes 20 minutes before you know it. So you can answer that question. Okay, I had a brief phase of being a breakfast person and I thought that that's who I had become. and then after a few months it just didn't feel right. Didn't feel right. Yeah. You need those double coffees. Yeah. The best dessert. Best dessert is like freshly churned ice cream that hasn't seen the freezer yet. Like it's just been churned, but it's never been totally frozen. Oh, that's such a good call. Flavor? I mean, open to flavors. I like really, really, I don't want to say vanilla ice cream, you know.

52:44Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my brain is like vanilla, vanilla, vanilla. No, it's so good. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Maybe Tabla, where I just heard so much about it. And I once carried like my boss's bags into it, but I never actually ate a meal there. You carried your boss's bags into it? Yeah, like I had to drop something off. I just had to drop something off for a boss. I see. But I didn't get to like sit down and have a meal. That's a good answer. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? I do think a lot about Arby's Curly Fries. Yes. Like specifically Arby's Curly Fries, but I can't remember the last time I had them.

53:23Yeah. Maybe it needs a reinvestigation. Yes. You're on the road. You're heading to the airport. Hit up at Arby's. I like that call. Your favorite city outside of America to visit for food? This is so boring, Paris. Not boring. It's the most common answer. Paris is not boring, but the answer is boring. No, I know. No, Paris is not boring, but the answer is great because it definitely is a common answer. and it says something. Last one, your favorite sandwich. I love a BLT. And I also love like the kind of veggie sandwich, the hippie sandwich, sprouts, avocado. There are a lot of great versions of that sandwich that I love.

54:00I love that answer. Have you been to Breadhead in LA? I have, yeah. They make a really good one. It's really good. Yeah. I haven't been there in a while. Yeah, I'm going soon. I'm going to hit a Breadhead. I like that a lot. Tejal, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

54:18This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.