641: London Loves the Mystery of a Pain Au Chocolat with Rosie Kellett

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. The reason it went viral was because in the comments, people really divided people in the comments, our lifestyle and the way that we've chosen to live. And half the internet were like, this is disgusting. You're all just rich kids, glamorizing poverty, and yada, yada, yada. And then the other side of the internet were like, this is phenomenal. Can I move in? This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Rosie Kellett is a chef, food writer, and supper club host based in London. She's the author of a terrific debut cookbook, In For Dinner, and I really enjoyed catching up with her about the current London restaurant scene, her deep interest in pain au chocolat, and what cooking in a shared space in East London taught her about her own cooking skills.

1:20Rosie absolutely rules and is big in the UK. This book represents her U.S. debut, and I really hope you can pick it up. Enjoy the conversation.

1:34Rosie Kellett, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? Thank you so much, Matt. I'm great. I'm very excited to be here. Well, you are in London, and we're recording this in the summer, and your book is out soon. I am absolutely loving this book. and honestly we're publishing it here so obviously listener there's a little bit of bias but I typically save praise when I when I can I mean and I just love it I think it's a fresh voice the art direction is incredible so congratulations thank you so much that means the world to me it was a real family affair like all of my closest friends and family members worked on the book so So it feels so nice to have their work appreciated when people enjoy it.

2:20It's very special. Well, we'll get into the book, In for Dinner, and what inspired it. Let's talk about London, though. You're there. You're on the scene. What's good right now, restaurant-wise? I was there in January, so I have my own thoughts, but they're very dated at this point, I imagine. What's good right now? Oh, okay. I mean, so much is good right now. I would say my favorite spot in London right now for a celebration, I go to Sessions Arts Club. which is a phenomenal restaurant that's in this old kind of like, I always forget what it used to be. It's kind of like almost like a, well, it was an art club for like maybe people in law.

2:58I don't fucking know, but it's a, it's a very old, beautiful building. And then the way it's been curated is like the food is art, but it's not stuffy. It's not, it's not kind of annoying food. It's just completely delicious. And it's in one of the most beautiful locations and like the service is phenomenal everything they do is incredible so i would say sessions art club is up there um but also i'm very biased my boyfriend is the head chef at this restaurant so i'm like oh bury the lead there no no wait wait not sessions no but western's laundry he works there and he's he is leaving soon so he um you know it's not like yeah but right now i think it's a very hot spot and the food is completely delicious and it's very relaxed and it's in a kind of quite again quite um uh like untypical building like you wouldn't really notice it or realize it was a restaurant unless you knew and it's kind of tucked away uh but it feels very it's it's sort of at its best in the summer because the doors all open out and it's like kind of indoor outdoor seating it sort of feels a bit like you're in europe but you're in uh in north london amazing well we'll get to the book i love it as i said before but but first big question here on your bio it says you project manage the royal wedding cake for prince harry and megan markle in 2018 what the fuck man what is project managing a cake for any bride and groom is really really really stressful i imagine but this one what was that all about well yeah no it was a very it was a big moment um I had previously worked for Claire Patak who is the the owner of a bakery called Violet Cakes in London um I used to be her assistant and she was commissioned to make the cake and so when she was she asked me if I would join the team she was like I want to get my A team together and will you be the project manager and uh I mean who was I to say no like I was like yeah I'll do that I will do that but it was a it was a very um intense job as you can imagine uh with many many layers to it and a lot of you went there many layers yeah many layers many tears um but um both kinds but yeah no no it was it was amazing and you know it was a very cool thing to be a part of, but, um, but it was not a chill time, I would say.

5:25So what's the, what's the cake? What did you land on? The cake was delicious. It was a lemon and elderflower cake and they, we used elderflower from the Dutchie estate, which is part of like the Royal estate. Um, when Amalfi lemons that we'd flown in from Italy and the sponge was kind of like a chiffon sponge. It was extremely light and delicate. And then it was like soaked in the elderflower syrup and then we use swiss meringue buttercream um with like lemon curd running through it and it was completely delicious it was it was a very good cake and what's it serving how many people like how large is it it was thousands it was like we did yeah yeah there were thousands of slices but it was the actual cakes that you would have seen photographed in the press like if you Google their wedding cake, those cakes were these huge round cakes.

6:16And they actually weren't eaten by the guests. They were donated to charities of Meghan and Harry's choosing. And then we also made a bunch of sheet cakes, which we then sliced into these like meticulous little fingers, which were passed around the reception. And that was like the moment when the guests ate the cake. So there was multiple things going on at the same time. And it was at like an unseasonably hot day in May. And so there was a lot of worry around the buttercream, you know, like being like, do we keep it in the fridge for a little longer and make sure everything's super, super neat?

6:47Or do we take it out now and make sure nothing's fridge cold? And like, you know, the balance between the hot and the cold and getting it the perfect serving temperature was quite a mission. I mean, what's the vibe check in the room of this reception? What's it like? Oh, I can't say I attended. Okay, okay. I couldn't tell you what the vibe was, but, you know, we set it up And then we were like out of there by, I don't know, 11 a.m. or something. Oh, I see. Smart. You set up and you were done. That's probably better for you guys not to be there. We were in and out. Yeah. Well, what a crazy story.

7:18But it's I mean, just from that, I mean, you're cooking, your professional cooking background is vast. And you worked as a stage actor and writer for a decade. But while you were working in the industry, you were working restaurant jobs. What's your background like for those of our listeners who don't know you now? I mean, many do with your Substack and your social, and it's really, really creative and cool. But what's your professional background like? Yeah, it's funny. I feel like I've lived many a life and many careers because I, yeah, grew up being like, I will be an actor. And that is my life.

7:53And I want to work in the theater. And I evolved into writing, but I had this big dream of being an actor. um and the first job I had actually I I moved to America um to be an assistant to an actress and I spent a year living there and then I came which was quite wild because I was like this 18 year old little country girl I'd never really left like my village you know and then suddenly I was living in LA and doing a lot of travel and working on movies and then I moved home moved to London when I was 20 got an agent and started working in theater and stuff but the whole time just to pay my rent.

8:28I worked in bakeries or cafes or, you know, like within the food industry. And the first job I got was working at a bakery called Meringue Girls, which was like a very East London. It was with them for like eight years. Like I would basically, you know, I was baking meringue for them. That was my job. And sometimes I would do, I sort of, my role evolved and I would do events and then I would do like running a shop and then I would go to like and do a massive wedding in India, but then I would be just baking meringue the next day. And so it was kind of a, you know, doing a bit of everything within the business, but they were extremely kind to me.

9:01And they would be like, you know, if you got an acting job, they'd say, yeah, you can go off and do that play for three months and there'll be a job waiting for you when you get back, which, yeah, which was kind of like, you know, unheard of really, because the whole hustle of being a self-employed freelance actor is like, when you get the job, you take the job, but then there's no saying when the next job is going to come. And so you kind of need a way of, of pulling an income in the meantime, that doesn't mean jumping between different pubs and bars and, you know, whatever it might be. So I was very lucky for that.

9:31When you're a PA for this actor in LA, what, what's the food, what's the food situation? Like, and I'm not going to ask who it is. Cause I believe you will not be able to tell me that unless you want. No, I think I can. Oh, great. Who is it? Who is it? Yeah. I assisted Samantha Morton. Oh yeah. Right. For about a year and a half. And then I've since gone back and worked with her actually like, in the pandemic, I did a job with her and I did a couple in London as well. But the longest stint was when I was 18. And yeah, it was, it was interesting because I was cooking for her. So I was kind of her private chef, as well as like her assistant and a driver.

10:06And I was, you know, I had a very sort of multi-layered role. And at the time, you know, I was, I think the way that she was eating, we were kind of vegan, I want to say, for most of that time. So a lot of the cooking I was doing was just for for ourselves like and we would take our own food to set um you know because it had to be like right for what she was eating at the time um and then we did eat out quite a lot like I feel like I got some really good meals in me when I was there like I'd never really enjoyed or understood sushi until I moved to LA because I don't think I'd ever had good sushi and then my mind was blown you know and I was like this is something else what are they doing in the UK, like, or, you know, the tiny part of like Northern England where I grew up, you cannot get your hands on good sushi.

10:52You definitely couldn't 15 years ago. Um, so that was eye opening and same with like tacos and Mexican food. I just, I just had never even conceived of it being that good. I realized I didn't really know what Mexican cuisine was until I ate it in LA. And, um, so yeah, it was, it was a big kind of, uh, like awakening, I think for me. Absolutely. I mean, I would imagine being from that small town and coming to L.A. and actually having some of these tacos in South L.A. in like the South Bay. I mean, what's going through your mind when you're trying these American and these Mexican-American tacos?

11:29I don't know. I just was like, oh, like this is what Mexican food. Like I was just like, oh, I get it now. And like I didn't really know anything even about the cuisine. Like I didn't know what Beria was. I didn't like understand. There's actually one really amazing place in London that I have to shout out, Sonora Taqueria, which is one of the owners. Michelle is from Sonora and she's cooking Sonoran food here in London and she does like flour tortillas. And obviously I had always just assumed that a taco is a corn tortilla and that that's the only way you could do it. And I think when I was in L.A., I tried so many different versions and types of food that I didn't even know at the time what I was eating, I think.

12:06And I look back on it now and I'm like, oh, do you eat good? You know? Oh, my God. Well, let's let's move on and talk about the book. I mean, the energy and pardon me if this feels off to you and please push back. But it's giving a lot of Jamie Oliver Naked Chef. And Jamie's a friend of mine in the show. And I just feel like I'm giving you a compliment. I'm hoping I'm giving you a compliment because I know, you know, Jamie is a big celebrity and maybe isn't your vibe. But like I just when I think about your style and the way you shoot in the loft with all your friends, I'm thinking Naked Chef right away.

12:44Yeah. You know, that's like the biggest compliment, Matt. I am. I am honored. Very cool. Honestly, for the comparison. Yeah. Like I'm in I'm such an admirer of Jamie Oliver and I think his work is phenomenal. And I just watched actually his chef's table episode. And there were clips from The Naked Chef, the TV show from the beginning of his career. And like, I can really see the comparison actually between that you're, you know, making between the way we shot this book and the way that was shot. And I think the energy of young Jamie really was just like, here's the food I'm cooking in my kitchen and I'm going to make it simple for you and accessible and it's delicious.

13:17And we should all be doing it. We should all be cooking more, which is absolutely my, you know, message and motto is kind of, you know, we should all be cooking more. It can feel intimidating, but it doesn't need to be. And like hopefully with the book, I'm going to sort of like open that up a bit for people and sort of break it down and make it feel a little bit more approachable. I mean, it's amazing that that was your first experience to Jamie's early TV. And I think it's shot exactly the way you shoot yours. And it's a great Chef's Table episode. And I just think the accessibility that you bring and like the really smart and creative recipe development skills you have in the book.

13:53It's very Jamie. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story. the 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.

14:37The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

15:14That's the This Is Taste listener survey link in our show notes. I want to hear about your social media journey because we have many creators on. I recall a conversation I had with Meredith Hayden from Wishbone Kitchen, And we were talking about her first post and the way it kind of develops because, you know, your celebrity and your recognition is from social media and, of course, Substack as well. But what was your what was like the first post that you felt like, man, this is working. This is the people are enjoying my my online persona. uh-huh well I think to answer that question I have to give a little context which is that I never aimed or planned or wanted to be big on the internet or even to have a social platform or to be called a creator like it was something that I didn't go looking for and then it kind of found me and obviously once you've got it you can't really give it back um and basically what had happened was I was sort of approaching my 30th birthday, was having a big, quite sort of typical existential crisis around like failure and achievement and how old I was and what I'd done with my life.

16:27And I had this big moment where I just had to ask, I was not happy. And I thought, I need to live a happier life. Like I need to make a change somewhere. And I really asked myself, like, what is it that gets me out of bed in the morning and what turns me on and what is like the reason for all of this? Like, what are we all doing here? And it was abundantly clear and obvious to me, it was feeding people and it was cooking and it was food and it always had been, but I'd been quite willingly ignoring it because I just thought, no, no, no, no, no, that's not my career. That's not what I'm going to do.

16:56And as soon as I'd kind of acknowledged and accepted that, I was like, okay, all right, we put all our effort and all our energy into this now. We try and make a career from this, or at least just we try and live a happier life that pays enough money to keep me afloat kind of thing. And I was quite, I suppose, realistic about that. And I thought the only way something will happen quickly, I can get my foot in a door somewhere, is if I start sharing online recipes and the food that I'm cooking. And that might lead to a job or it might lead to meeting somebody or it might just open a door into food styling or like I didn't know what I wanted to do.

17:33So it was more just about having kind of a portfolio of work on the internet that I could send to people and people could see. And I made this like private commitment to myself to post three reels a week and TikTok every day for like a couple of months. And I thought I'll do that and we'll just see where this goes. But the idea of putting myself on the internet and filming a video that my face was in or just literally anything of me, I was just like, I would rather poke my eye out with a rustling head. It was so cringe to you. It was so cringe. like you just didn't want to be that because you're a theater actor and i feel the and to be clear it's it's not like you were thinking about uh television and you weren't thinking about being you're like in the theater writing and that's a very highly personal and less extra online kind of trade that you're in and yeah but also there's like a vessel with through which your work goes so it's not about me rosie it's like when you're an actor and you're in your inner play you're playing a character it's not about you and when you write a play it's like your voice is there but you but you're not screaming and shouting and being like look at me look at me look at me so it felt extremely different and I also didn't know enough about social media or how to make a video how to edit or anything but luckily my housemates are all younger than me and they're all pretty savvy or quite gen z and I sort of sat them down and I was like listen children like please tell me what the kids be doing on the internet like teach me and they were so patient and sweet and taught me how to make a reel and taught me how to edit and helped me download all the apps and everything and I started slowly well I started doing these three reels a week I was working full-time in a kitchen at um e5 bakehouse which is a sourdough bakery in east London but they also have like a kitchen that does breakfast brunch and lunch so I was one of the the chefs in the kitchen.

19:26So I would go to work at 6am, do, you know, a full shift until like three or four in the afternoon, come home, shoot a recipe, edit voiceover overnight, and then post it the following morning before work. And I was doing that for sort of, yeah, like three months. And it was very embarrassing. I was like, you know, this, the only people looking at this is like my mom and my grandma. My grandma doesn't understand the nature of commenting on Instagram. She doesn't realize that it's public. It's all a bit wrong. Like, and then I would go to work and people would make kind of snarky comments about like the quiche I just filmed.

19:55And it was, it was, you know, it was a transition and I found it quite uncomfortable. Anyway, there came a day where I had to cook dinner for my house because we have, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but we have a system in my house where each night of the week, one person cooks for everybody. And it was my turn, but I also had to film a recipe reel and I did just didn't have time to do both. So I thought, you know, I'll just film cooking dinner and I'll talk a little bit about how we live and how we share and how we share money and food. And I'd had this kind of seed, like a kernel of an idea for a cookbook.

20:28At this point, I had a thousand followers. Like no one knew who I was. And I just thought if I share a little bit about it on the internet and it gains some traction, I can show that maybe to a publisher and they might, you know, it might get me a little interest in writing a cookbook. But what happened was I did that. I posted it on a Monday. I had a thousand followers. And by the Friday I had a hundred thousand and it just climbed and climbed and climbed and it was so severe it was so quick and out of the blue uh that it it was quite scary and it was like whilst it's led to a lot of really wonderful things it was a very big adjustment period for me of being like oh like a lot of people are looking at this now yeah and you know and and and it the reason it went viral was because the in the comments people were it really divided people in the comments, our lifestyle and the way that we've chosen to live.

21:21And half the internet were like, this is disgusting. You must all be sleeping together behind closed doors. You're all just rich kids, glamorizing poverty and yada, yada, yada. And then the other side of the internet were like, this is phenomenal. Can I move in? And then those people argued with each other. I mean, it's really fascinating that you're being so frank about the way this rapid growth has really changed your life overnight. But there's a divide in the comments. I think any creator knows that there's a lot of negativity in there. And just to set it up for listeners, you know, you're living in an East London share home and there's, you know, what, 10 people living together more.

22:04And you all have this method where you're paying 30 pounds a week and pooling your resources for food and cooking all your meals and and it being a collaborative uh appeal and just to be clear you aren't a bunch of rich kids trying to like uh glamorize like slumming is a crazy word but people use that a lot but i mean you're this was like out of you necessary and you're a struggling yeah yeah it was an artist yeah yeah yeah the reason i moved into this so it was like a disused carpet warehouse in hackney wick and hackney wick is an area of east london that is filled with where you know old warehouses like this that are you know there's the peanut factory and the shoe factory and the and they're all these old industrial buildings that have kind of been co-opted by artists to live there to have space and also cheap rent and when I was in sort of 2020 I'd gone through a breakup I needed somewhere to live I just could not afford I could not find any flat in London I could afford you know a room in a flat and I found this place I could afford it it had more space than a normal um flat share and i didn't really want to live in a warehouse i wasn't like oh yeah like i'm ready to live in a warehouse and rave every tuesday i was like no i need to do this because it's the only thing i can afford but i went to the viewing and and it was at the time there were 10 people there it ended up being more like seven but i sat around this kitchen table with the with the current housemates and there was like a half an hour interview and they for good reason.

23:29You know, they explained in great detail, we live communally, we share everything, we pool resources, we each cook for each other. You need to be on board with that. You need to be okay with it. This doesn't work for everyone. Do you like cooking? Like, and I'm sitting there thinking, oh my God, I want to move in so badly. Like play it cool, play it cool. But all of those things for me, they took all my boxes. And I was, I was extremely sad in that time in my life. I was very lonely. I was craving community. And I had no idea just how transformative living that way would be for me. And over the following five years, everything got better.

24:04You know, I was living on a hundred pounds a month in London for all of my living expenses, which is just unheard of. But I was also living with great friends and I was eating incredible food and I was getting to cook and share. And we were like, you know, it doesn't feel that revolutionary. This is the way that a lot of people have lived for centuries, but it does feel as if at the moment in this kind of like late stage capitalism world that we live in, we've been kind of pushed away from this idea of sharing and, you know, being in community and it becomes harder and harder to weave these things into your life.

24:39And for me, it's been a kind of massive wake up call that, you know, for the health of your wallet, the planet and yourself, sharing is kind of the key. Wonderful sentiments, Rosie. I mean, really, really smart. And I think New York, it's even more difficult to find this kind of living situation. I know it exists, but in London, it's cool. And I'm optimistic that you can actually live in a city in an affordable way, thinking about the planet, thinking about all these topics that everyone has to consider when moving to a major city. Are you still living in the shared flat? we got evicted actually in march oh my so yeah it's been a busy year i will say um yeah we got evicted from that building in march and we five of us have stayed together and we now just live in a normal house but we're still living communally as a group um so we still share all of our food and we still do the the weekly kitty of money that buys all the groceries and we still cook for each other but um we're just doing it in a normal house i love the warehouse anymore i love that you're still, that's you and that's part of your bio.

25:45Well, I want to ask you about Substack because you have a terrific Substack and you are active on it. And how do you marry the online reels and TikTok persona with actual deep writing? You're a natural writer and I love it. And how's that been for you working on Substack? I actually, I find Substack so in comparison to making content for the internet. the you know video short form content sub stack is a dream because I find oftentimes with short form content that is video or whatever it's very difficult to weave nuance and you know meaning into the message that you're giving people whereas on sub stack I can write in a way that is is very honest and bummerable and open and not only do I have the space to do that but also I'm not scared of being trolled or attacked or, you know, it feels safer than social media platforms that are more open because the people who are there have actively chosen to be there.

26:48They've subscribed. They may even be paying to subscribe. And so I think, you know, you want to be here. So as long as I'm giving you what I've told you I'm going to give you, and if I really sort of, you know, drill into what I want to share with the world and make sure that is of good quality and it's researched and it's meaningful and thoughtful, I kind of know it's going to do well. Like I know that people are going to appreciate it because it's the whole deal. You know, it's like I've told you I'm going to give you these things. I've worked on them. I've worked really hard on them. And now you've got them.

27:19And it feels reciprocal and it feels like the most supported part of my life at the moment, really being a freelancer with many different types of work up in the air. Substack feels the safest. I really love that. And I'm big on Substack. I'm buying that stock um on that note you just published a terrific guide to the pan o 'chocolat which to me i'm i'm like a huge head and i love it um i order it often and you really gave east london a very strong look and you gave your your readers a a great uh i would say survey of the pan o 'chocolat first off what what's up with the pan o 'chocolat and why there and like no jolene i'm just curious I'm just curious.

28:05I know. No, no, no. I went to Jolene. They were sold out. Oh. Absolutely gutting. They were second stop on my list. Okay. And I already knew, this is all on me, by the way. Like I'd gone out a little too hard the night before. And we'd said we were going to start at eight. So I basically make a sort of video show for Substack, which is called Second Helpings. And I do it with my cousin, Jake, who's a phenomenal filmmaker. And he doesn't even live in London. He comes to London to see me every other week and we make a sort of like half an hour episode, which is either a recipe or a guide or like whatever it might be.

28:39And this week we didn't really know what to do. And then we were like, hey, maybe we do the bakery tour thing because we've been talking about it for a while. And so anyway, he comes to London. I go out the night before. I got a bit lit. And then in the morning I was like, hey, can we do like 9.30? And he was like, not a problem. But it meant that by the time we got to Jolene, I was just too late. So that was heartbreaking. but yeah I think we chose the pan de chocolat because it's the pastry I buy the most often and it's also you know I have my favorite pastry it comes from Popham's it's a another Eastlander bakery and it's a Marmite cheese spring onion and sesame pastry it is absolutely life-changing but not everyone makes it so I was like if we're going to do a fair fight here I need to pick something that everybody does a version of and that is quite classic and that everyone recognizes and that there can't be too many variable factors uh and so i could have gone with a plain croissant but i just simply don't buy them i don't like eating them it's too it's too plain yeah it is i would put them in a sack i would like half them butter them and stuff them with cheese and tomato but i i'm not going to just randomly a plain croissant so that's why we went with chocolate it was very interesting i mean just the broad spectrum and scale of the pastries you can buy in London is really quite something.

29:57Well, let me ask you about the chocolate element. As a fellow pan-au-chocolat head, I want to know, are the chocolates varying the bars they put in the pan-au-chocolat? Because that's one element. Of course, you want your lamination to be really on point. You want it to be fresh. It can be darker or lighter. That's up to the baker. But that chocolate element, because you gave it this deep dive, I'd love to hear about the chocolate element. Is it consistently the same product or is that varying? No, no, no, no. Like, hugely varying. And I, like, I couldn't tell you exactly which chocolates I sampled, but they tasted completely different to eat.

30:32Like there was maybe two that were semi-similar and then the rest of them were like night and day. And I'd had an experience where there's, so one of the first bakeries we went to was called Fink's and I'd done a pop-up at Fink's for my book launch, like back in May. And when I was prepping for the pop-up and baking off all of my stuff in the background, their head baker, Adam, was testing the chocolate for the pan of chocolate that they had not yet launched like it's quite new for them and so I got to be there while they did the chocolate tasting and it was so interesting they only had they had two contenders and he baked off like six of each and then we all did a blind tasting um and and everyone bar one person actually voted for the same chocolate but they did taste incredibly different um those chocolates look quite similar and then of the six pastries that we tasted the other day for substack there was one that was like almost red in color, the chocolate.