643: Union Square Cafe at 40 with Danny Meyer

27:40and the phone was ringing two times, three times, four times, five times. What the hell is going on? So I had two telephones in my office and I pick up both lines at the same time and I go, good afternoon, Union Square Cafe with one phone in each ear. And each of these two people asked for what they wanted and I just broke out laughing and I hung up on both of them. That's Mr. Hospitality. Yeah, no, but you have your moments that you can just have a little fun with it, I'm sure. I did not mean that. No. So, no, look, I always wanted Union Square Cafe to feel like a very inclusive club as opposed to a very exclusive club.

28:27And what I meant by that was that if you were a regular, if you were – and we had two very different businesses. Our lunch business was primarily made up of book publishers and agents and authors and magazine editors and authors. And it was great because I got to learn so much about what was going on not only in New York but in the entire world. And when I call it an inclusive club, when you have people who are having lunch there three, four, five times a week. Yeah. We had bar regulars. We had dining room regulars. The dining room regulars all had their table. And God forbid you didn't plot out their table the right way.

29:13That wasn't a cool thing. But when I say inclusive, you didn't have to be a regular to get a reservation. And I just loved the juxtaposition of, you know, we had farmers from the green market eating at the bar with, you know, high-profile magazine editors sitting next to them. And it was just the most democratic, great place. At dinnertime, we had a different crowd. And what was great about Union Square Cafe, especially in those early days, was that New York had not really seen this kind of restaurant. Back then, if you wanted to eat really, really well, it was expensive, probably midtown. It probably started with Lola or Eel.

30:01Or you could go somewhere really, really casual, a chain restaurant. Yeah. Not that great. And so it was really fun to have a restaurant where we were serving amazing quality food, incredible wines, incredible wines by the glass, fair price, didn't have to get dressed up for it. It was a downtown version of an uptown restaurant and an uptown version of a downtown restaurant. Yeah, revolutionary. And when you talk about fair pricing, I mean, are you keeping a margin that makes sense for you, but you're not – like you're not trying to like make those extra bucks here and there just to have that club that feels inclusive?

30:38No, we were never ever of the mentality that, you know, just because you can charge so much, therefore you should. Why? Because I had a philosophy growing up. This might have even been in my yearbook in high school, which is you can shear sheep many times, but you can only skin them once. And I always, you know, I designed Union Square Cafe from the very outset as the restaurant that if only it existed would be my favorite restaurant. And so I spent a lot of years dining solo. I was a salesman for a few years. I'd go eat by myself at lunch counters. I was traveled in Europe, dined by myself. And I saw how solo diners often got the worst table or no reservation or treated really snootily.

31:25And so there, I'm going to give, you know, great hospitality to solo diners. I'm going to have great food at the bar. I'm going to design the bar for eating. Yeah, which is not a place to be relegated to because you weren't good enough to get a table. I mean, this is a movement that you revolutionized and truly invented in America, at least, is solo diner at the bar and having a bar menu that stood up to the dining room menu. And you could dine and have the same meal. I mean, that's been copied over in every single city in this country. Yeah, I can't say I was first by this. As a matter of fact, I was inspired.

32:00There was a restaurant I went to before opening Union Square Cafe in San Francisco in the – what is this called? The North – what do they call the – North Beach? Yeah, North Beach. Yeah. Called Vanessie's. Okay. And Vanessi's was this just – maybe it's still open – this wonderful southern Italian cooking. And the cooking line was the back bar. Yeah. And it was much more fun eating at the bar even than eating in the diner. Yeah. And we don't have a cooking line behind the bar. That would actually be an inspiration for me many years later with North End Grill, which only lived for about eight years downtown.

32:43town, but I love eating at the bar. So I didn't invent it by a long shot, but I do think that in New York, most of the bars back then were designed purely for drinking. And you could always tell because they had a big lip on the edge of the bar to put your elbows on. And so your drink wouldn't fall off. We always had bars that were flat. Or spills wouldn't fall around your lap. Yeah. And And now that you're designing even the bar to serve restaurant diners. Tell me about some of your regulars. There's got to be some cool names, some cool people. Back in those days, so many of them came from the publishing industry.

33:20Yeah, 80s, 90s. Who's dining in your – Well, people like editors like Gary Fiskichon and Morgan Entrican, authors like Jay McInerney. The biggest ones that were publishers, Roger Strauss from Ferris Strauss-Heroes, He was there every single day on table 38. Paul Gottlieb was there from Harry Abrams there every day on 24. From Crown, we had Betty Prasker. In the front window every day for lunch, we had two Upstart magazine editors, Kurt Anderson and Graydon Carter, who had started Spy Magazine. And they would eat there all the time until we eliminated or I eliminated smoking at Union Square Cafe in 1990 and Graydon boycotted me at that point.

34:10Since then, we've become very friendly again. Yeah. But he wouldn't eat there for several years. Neither would people like David Reif, another editor. He stopped coming in because of that. To have this crowd, and you're referring to a lot of magazines, but a lot of book industry, the publishing industry, and you talk about learning about the world from your guests, How were you interacting with these leaders in the world of letters? Well, I had a never-ending supply of books to read. Well, that's true. They're always dropping you galleys, I'm sure. Yeah. And what was also fun, I mean, for all the names I've mentioned, there's so many I haven't.

34:51Jonathan Colossi was there all the time. Bud Trillin was there all the time. The book agents, the Leshers, Bob Lesher. It was just great. It was great. I'll never forget when Ferris Rajarou hired the former editor of The New Yorker, William Sean, to be one of their senior editors. And they took me aside before his first visit and said, by the way, the only thing he eats is cornflakes for lunch. And so we would walk across the street to the deli right across the street from Union Square Cafe and buy cornflakes because we weren't buying them wholesale. And that's what he had for lunch while everybody else was having normal Union Square cafe.

35:39That's hospitality. I'm sure the milk was good, though. The milk came from a nice farm. I hope so. One of the really fun things also was that right about this same time, Barnes & Noble had opened for the first time right on Union Square. And so whenever we knew an author was coming in, we would go buy their new book and put it at the front maitre d' stand and get an autograph on the book. They'd be really happy. And we ended up having a really nice collection of books. That's very cool. I mean, have you ever – do you still have this collection in one of your offices, all these books? I'm afraid I haven't checked, but we better.

36:18That would be amazing to check out. There's a lot of them. I would love to see your library. That's a sidebar. The other cool thing is that because of our clientele, we ended up attracting – another big thing that's changed in our industry is that when we needed a new server at the restaurant, back then we would either put an ad in the New York Times or the Village Voice. And in the early days, we would get lines around the corner to come be a server at Unisware Cafe. Is that – why? Why so? Do they want the training? Do they want the business? I don't think there were many other restaurants in town.

36:54Okay. Or there weren't nearly as many restaurants in town. Again, if you go back to the model I just described, we weren't hiring, you know, people who were classically trained to be a French waiter in a French restaurant or an Italian waiter in an Italian restaurant. And so we were getting really the pick of the litter. And a lot of the people that were applying to us knew about not only how much money they could make, but they also knew who our clientele was. And so it was a wonderful virtuous cycle where our servers ended up becoming friendly with the literary crowd. Yeah, they were sliding manuscripts across the table when they could.

37:38They were doing that, but they were also very interested. Yeah. And interesting people. And as a result, our guests ended up falling in love with our staff. And it just – it is and has always been part of the magic of Union Square Cafe is that I never wanted to feel in this industry that service was servitude. and I don't want anyone on our team ever to feel that way. And the most wonderful thing is when you see that relationship, a human relationship happening between a guest and a server, you can always tell a lot about someone based on how they treat servers. Agree fully. And by and large, we have always had an amazing clientele for that reason.

38:29But they do go hand in hand. I mean, we were having dinner at Union Square Cafe six months ago, a large group, maybe seven or eight of us had a big round. It was a work dinner with some corporate chefs. They had picked the place and I was like, I'm glad they come along. And I remember the server vividly. She knew everything about the menu, but she was like young, a woman of color. She was extremely like she gave a lot of Gen Z and I was loving everything about it because it was not my generation. She was so into the food and so different from what I think you would expect at a lot of restaurants with that age.

39:10I was just so impressed by it. So that feels good to hear that. Yeah, it's the truth. Let's talk about Stephanie Dandler's book Sweet Bitter, which I love. I think it's a terrific book. and she worked at Union Square Cafe and the book is set in a restaurant without naming the name. Did you read it early and what did you think? I did. Well, early on, Stephanie's terrific. Yeah, she is. She married someone else who worked at Union Square Cafe, Brad. She wrote me before publishing it. I just want to give you a heads up. I'm writing a book and a lot of people may say it's Union Square Cafe. I just want you to know that.

39:52And I said, great, congratulations. Can't wait to read it. So I read the book. It is absolutely set at Union Square Cafe. I mean, she nails every single detail of the restaurant. Right down to and including some of the exact wines by the glass that we were serving then. That said, the story is as fictitious as it can be. Unless I was completely asleep at the wheel. But I don't think most of that – and I think she would say that I don't think most of that stuff happened. But she's a terrific writer. The only but I have is that the stage set is so perfect, like pitch perfect, that it would be very easy to believe that everything that happened in her novel had actually happened in real life.

40:44Yeah. I mean, this is before the trend of autofiction. And I think at the time, she's a great storyteller. She's a screenwriter. I think you could deduce that a lot of it was amplified. It's a terrific book. It's a decade old or so. And I recommend picking it up. Let's talk about... The good news is that the character she calls owner, I don't think does anything too stupid in the book. But the bar that everyone post-shift hung out at is Park? Yeah, on 15th Street. That bar was awesome. I mean, that part was amazing just in general. And I think she nailed that too. Yep. As a post-shift hangout for your staff.

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42:44Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there.

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43:54For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Let's talk about 2013, 2014, that era. What's the phone call like when you hear that the original location, this restaurant that we've been speaking about, was going to be given a very large rent hike?

44:39Yeah, well, it was more than a phone call. We knew this was coming up. We had actually renewed our lease once already. Okay. And by the way, one of the great lines of all time from our New York restaurateur, the late Joe Baum, used to always say that his definition of a classic restaurant was one that outlived its first lease. Yes. So now we've outlived two leases. Yeah. That first lease you got was a great – Yeah. That was – that covered up a lot of – having an$8 square foot rent covers up a lot of other mistakes. You can – we did a lot of things that would have put a lot of restaurants out of business.

45:22I was buying wine like crazy. Where would I have gotten the cash flow except that our rent was so low? But that's the magic. That's why you got to the margin that you needed to get to eventually because your diners evolved with you and they paid more. But we could also give good value to our diners as a result. So it was a great real benefit. But it was something we knew was coming up like five years before the lease expired. We started talking about it internally. And we started having conversations with the landlord. And, you know, you didn't want to feel too, too eager or the landlord was going to ratchet up the rent.

46:05But you couldn't be too complacent or he'd have you by the short hairs. Yeah. As a matter of fact, in our second cookbook, which came out in 2001, unfortunately, the week of 9-11, the cookbook came out called Second Helpings from Union Square Cafe. And that book never left its first printing because the entire publicity got canceled because nobody wanted to hear about cookbooks for months after that. But in that book, if you could ever get a copy of it, there is a photo essay. There are a series of photo essays by the great photographer Dwayne Michaels. And we included our landlord in one of the photo essays trying to, you know.

46:47Butter him up a little bit. Maybe. Maybe a little bit. He was an important part of the team. He was. Integral to the success of the restaurant. And you'd think that that would have done it, but it didn't because as these conversations went on, It was very, very clear that he wasn't the least bit sentimental about Union Square Cafe being there. He just wanted whoever could pay the top dollar on the place. And we had a really tough decision to make because at this point, the restaurant was approaching its 30th birthday. And we had won five James Beard Awards for the restaurant. We'd gotten two three-star reviews for the restaurant.

47:27And it was very, very clear that, you know, this wasn't going to end happily. The building itself was decrepit. And you were patching together however you could without being too annoying. Yeah. You might not remember this, but the floorboards in the downstairs dining room were starting to sag. I was literally afraid they were going to break through to the basement. Yeah. The basement, by the way, was a rabbit warren of wires and walk-in refrigerators. We had a makeshift area to make fresh pasta and gnocchi in the basement. Yeah. You know, forget the wine cellar banging your head on. Yeah. It was terrible.

48:12And we knew that in order to keep our lease there, three things would have to be true. We would have to invest a lot of money into the space. We'd have to get a lease we could afford. And we'd have to have a lot of years on that lease so that we could pay back the investment we would have to make into this terrible building. And none of those would work out because the landlord wanted to triple our rent. And by this point, remember, we're far from$8 a square foot at this. We're now, you know, 30 years into the thing. And so tripling where we were plus only offering us 10 years meant that we would spend 10 years basically just working to pay back the landlord and pay back our construction cost.

49:03So we had a lot of voices on our team that said, you know what? It's been an amazing 30 years. Just close the book. We've already got – Are you busy still? We're very busy. Yeah. So you're busy. That's what's called. We're very busy. It wasn't – And it wasn't my favorite couple years of the restaurant because everyone on the team knew that our lease was coming up. They didn't know what was going to happen next. And so there were a lot of people going like, should I stay on this ship? Where is the ship going? And I was the voice that was hell-bent. But by the way, at this point, we have Gramercy Tavern, 11 Madison Park, Tabla, Shake Shack, Blue Smoke.

49:46Yeah. The Modern. Yeah. So we had a lot of other stuff going on. But I always had this sense, and I still have this sense, that as goes Union Square Cafe, so goes the whole company. Interesting. Even though all of those places had various success, and also you clearly could spread out your time effectively with those locations and have a very satisfied life. But you know what? I only have one first baby. Yeah, true. And while I will never say or feel that Union Square Cafe is my favorite, it is the only one that's my first. It's the only one where I spent a decade of my life learning to be a restaurateur with nothing else to distract me.

50:29And so it's just – it's always had a special place. It's what I named our whole company after. Exactly. It's your company. It's your North Star in that way. So, look, I obviously won the argument. We weren't going to close the book on Union Square Cafe. I wisely listened to some voices on the team saying, and we can't re-up here, which I really wanted to do. And so, you know, I had the same experience on the last night at Union Square Cafe as I had on the first night, which is I cried. Oh, wow. I cried the first night when I opened that door because, like, what the hell did I get myself into? And I cried on the last night because it had been an experience unlike anything I had ever imagined.

51:18I never thought I would be a restaurateur. I never thought there would be more than one. I never thought this one would even work. And I've not once walked back into the space. I was wondering, do you walk down that block? I've walked down the block probably three times in the last decade. I've looked in the window once. Look, the landlord did the rational thing, maybe not the heartfelt thing, but the rational thing for a landlord, which is he got his triple the rent. They found a Japanese udon noodle place. And it made total sense because it's part of a chain. They don't have a chef or a sous chef or a pastry chef or a sommelier or tablecloths or flowers, right?

52:05So a lot of the costs that go into doing something like Union Square Cafe, if you can strip those out, you can afford to pay that guy's rent. Yeah. And it's still there? I don't even – Well, it's interesting you ask. I believe it's still there. Okay. However, a broker recently called saying that space is coming up for rent because they got a 10-year lease. Is – And would you be interested? And our answer was no, thank you. Oh, my goodness. We're good. We're good. We're really happy. Was there a moment, Danny, that you were like something sparked and like what you could do in that space again? You mean when we got the call from the broker?

52:42Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Of course. But fortunately, the spark was like – Ten-year lease. The spark was about six seconds long. Well, I hope you had a good moment then just like thinking about what could have been in that space, coming back to that space. I'll tell you why I didn't. I am so happy with where we moved to that there's not one day I regret that what we did when we went to 19th and Park Avenue South. Union Square Cafe, I would argue, is better at the age of 40 than it's ever been. And it's more relevant, in fact, than it's ever been. Agree fully. And it leads to my next question. I mean, the space that you are now in was previously City Crab, which I think had a lot of – people have memories from that location and that restaurant.

53:33It was Cafe Iguana before that. It was Cafe Iguana before – I know the name. Did you dine at those restaurants and ever – Never. Never. Never went to City Crab. I never went to Duke's Barbecue, which was right next door. Yeah. Which became Daily Provisions. I know. So, no, but I was very aware of them because I've walked by all the time. It's just not – I actually – I went to City Crab when it was in a smaller – I think they had a location on either 2nd or 3rd Avenue when they first opened. And it was a cool thing for New Yorkers to get out the mallet and bang on the crabs. Certainly. Great signage.

54:08Great iconic. And now you've taken it over. But like what a great block of park. I mean it's just – it's such a New York block, right? It was important for us to move the door to having a 19th Street address. I know that sounds silly. It doesn't. But we did not want to have a Park Avenue South address for Union Square Cafe. It had to be just a little off. I love that you did that. So that was like right when you were looking at the opportunity, you were like, we need to move the door. Yep. Yeah, 19th. I mean, it's your brand is 19th. It's not Park. You know, it's like Park's a very long avenue.

54:41But the key thing is we really had one prerequisite, and it took us – we were nomads for a year. I don't know if you're aware of that, but there was a year between closing Union Square Cafe on 16th Street and opening this one because it took us – even before you get into the construction and the design, it took us a long time to find a place that truly felt like Union Square Cafe. And we were getting – there was some notoriety around the closing. I think I even wrote an op-ed piece from The New York Times about how, well, can't New York be more like London or Paris where restaurants go on forever?

55:22And it's not like which landlord can eke out the last dollar. But we don't have laws like that. We don't have traditions like that. New York is about what's new. I mean a lot of restaurants in Europe also are owned by the operators too. There's that dynamic at play. The space itself is owned by the other people. That's true. But even when they're not, there's a sense of continuity and tradition that we just don't have as much here. No, it's not. But it's really been fantastic. It was a fantastic experience to ask ourselves, how can we do something that rarely works to actually move an iconic restaurant?

56:01As a matter of fact, the same year that Union Square Cafe was moving, the Four Seasons was moving. Yeah. Less successful move for those guys. And I kind of saw that in advance. I know one of the two former owners of the Four Seasons I know pretty well, Alex von Bitter, fantastic guy. And we had talked. We had kind of self-help sessions with each other. I bet. And I remember saying to him, I said, you know, this is a big challenge. I don't know that many restaurants that have successfully moved. Spago sort of did it. However, the new Spago is nothing like the original Spago. Yeah, people really reflect on the old Spago and want it back.

56:41But you have to say, at least the new one succeeded. But there's a lot of restaurants where it just didn't work. And I said, I actually, you know, I'm rooting for you, Alex, with the Four Seasons, but I think we have a slightly less challenging move to make. And I said, if you asked any 10 people who love the Four Seasons, what do you most love about the Four Seasons? I bet you in the top three reasons, eight of them are going to mention the space itself. Yeah. The iconic space. I said, if you ask any 10 people what they most love about Union Square Cafe, I don't think the space is going to be in the top 10.

57:24I think we have to move a spirit and some good cooking. Yeah. You have to move the feeling of the space. And I just don't know where you're going to get the Seagrams building. Yeah. And Johnson's design. That's just architectural history. Yeah. So we got an opportunity to actually make something feel better. Well, you fixed a lot of mistakes. We fixed some mistakes. We brought along all of our art. Of course. So we gave you the hug of familiarity.

57:58We even brought along half of the original mahogany bar. Yeah. And we put it upstairs. And what's cool about that is— I love that space up there. If you're someone who used to eat at that bar every day, it's one of these if you know, you know kind of thing. I didn't realize that that was the original bar up there. It is. And when you touch—when I touch that wood, I actually—it takes me back to the— the feeling of the original because it is. I love the space. I think the having mezzanine and having so many different, uh, emotions when dining at the current union square cafe, if you're upstairs in a booth, it's different than a large round on the floor downstairs, which is different from the bar downstairs.

58:35Yeah. It's great. I mean, Lena is going to tell us about the food later on in this interview. Um, but I want to ask you, um, just right now, um, how, How is business at Union Square? I mean, it's a really challenging time for anyone, including yourself, with so many headwinds about dining in New York City with costs and inflation and all that. I know it's a big question, but I'd love to hear your take on it. Well, I don't want to sound like Pollyanna, but I don't think it's ever gone any better.

59:08And, you know, people talk about the various headwinds we have. I don't remember a time in my career when we didn't have headwinds. They're different from time. You know, going back to opening Union Square Cafe, the biggest headwind was my own inexperience. The next biggest headwind, I would say, was that we were told who we could and couldn't buy a lot of our stuff from back then. Mm-hmm. Okay? We had to – there was one trash company we were allowed to work with or else. There was one dairy company we had to work with or else. One fish company. One bread company. And – What's yours? Well, I was too stupid to believe it.

59:54And so I just did what I wanted to do. So, I mean, there was one day when there was a group of three guys wearing like right out of central casting the gold necklace, the gold bracelet, the most disgusting cologne. And the host says, table 38 wants to say hi to you, Danny. So I didn't know who they were. So I went over and said hi. I could smell their cologne from like three tables away. It was disgusting. And one of them says, sit on the fourth chair. Sit down. And I go – this was before I declined ever sitting down at tables. Back then, I thought, OK. Thank you. So I sit down with these guys.

1:00:38And in the middle of the table was a brand new dish on our menu, tagliata di manzo. So sliced steak with rosemary and wonderful olive oil on top over arugula salad. And the guy says, what's this? And I go, that's tagliata. And he says, now what is it? And with that, he takes the whole pile and puts it on the tablecloth with the olive oil getting all over it. He says, who's going to clean this now? And I looked at him and I go, uh-oh, I think I know what's going on right now. Yeah. Why are you doing business with my cousin?

1:01:17So it was that, you know, when I talk about headwinds, that's the kind of stuff that you had. These are the stories of the days and still today there's lots of intimidation. Yeah. So, you know, 1987, we got Black Friday. So that was a headwind. Yeah. Our business went away for two weeks. And I said, great, two years in and we're already done. Right. Then we got 9-11. Then we got Hurricane Sandy. We got the Great Recession. We got the pandemic. Now we have tariffs and immigration issues. And it's always going to be something. And I just think that when you sign up to be a restaurateur, you're not signing up for it because it's easy.

1:02:01You're signing up because however many headwinds and challenges there are, the joy of making people feel better is the thing that matters more than everything. Thank you for sharing about Union Square. I'm thrilled that we could go back in time and hear about that. And that's only scratching the surface. I mean, really, it is. And I know you're working on a book. You know, something, if I can just say, something that I feel so happy and proud and grateful for at Union Square Cafe is that in now almost 40 years, we've had four chefs. The first one, Ali Barker was there for three years. He had promised me two, won an extra year.

1:02:40Then Michael Romano was there for 14 years. Carmen Qualiata was there for about a dozen years. And now Lena Chardulo is doing a remarkable job. And she's been there since I think she started either right before the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. That was her first month. So she's in five. I want to segue and ask you about critics, restaurant critics in modern time. And we had Lagaya Mishan on right before her first review dropped, which was for your restaurant, The View. And I mean, I want to just get your take because we've had this great interview with her about she we talked a lot about how she wrote the review, how she looked at the restaurant, that terrific lead.

1:03:19But how did you feel about the review and how do you think about criticism in general right now? I think restaurant criticism has evolved dramatically. Again, if you go back to the opening of Union Square Cafe, you needed the review as a consumer to know what was open. Never mind, should I go there? Never mind, what should I eat? And I think that restaurant criticism faithfully answered all those questions. I think as time has gone by and we have social media and, you know, TikTok and Instagram and all the ways and Eater and all the ways that you can learn about restaurant openings and where your friends are eating.

1:04:02You can go to Belly to find out where do your friends eat. I love that you called that out. We wrote a big story about Belly. Yeah. It's super modern. It is. And I think that what they all say is that eating out is a really important part of the social fabric of our city. And therefore, I think that mainstream media restaurant criticism has also had to evolve over time. It no longer is a place you need to go to discover that a place is open, where it is, what the phone number is, if they have a phone, or even what the food looks like because you've already seen pictures of that forever. Therefore, I think that there's a premium today with restaurant criticism to do a handful of things.

1:04:45I think that it can turn over rocks that you might not have known about even if you have social media. It can tell a story about where our city is at that particular time from a sociological basis based on how and where people are eating. You know, when I travel to other cities, I watch how people eat. And as a way of learning about that culture. And I think that more and more today, and I think Pete Wells was doing a lot of this, I think Ruth Reichel was probably the last critic we had that would just swoon over the food descriptions themselves. Brian Miller was the last restaurant critic we had who would swoon over the wine.

1:05:32You don't read that much about wine anymore. Definitely not. Which is such an important part of dining out. So, you know, I think it still plays an important role. What I would love to see, and I don't know if it's the New York Times. It should be the New York Times because certainly they know from their – all of the food sections that they sell and the recipe sections that people are really interested in food. I think that what's missing in food criticism is to watch restaurants after – or as they evolve in time. You know, Ruth Reichel came back and reviewed Gramercy Tavern for a second time 13 months after it opened.

1:06:15She gave it two stars. Right off. That's all it deserved. Her last paragraph said, like a good red wine, I bet this one will improve with age. And then she followed up on it. Damn it. She came back 13 months later, gave it a three-star review. You saw that with Frank Bruni. The Modern, he did that, raised it from two to three stars. Eleven Madison Park, gave it two stars right off the bat, then three, then four. And somehow I feel like the New York Times should have the bandwidth with all these different critics they now have and all the coverage to be able to watch what happens to good restaurants.

1:06:55As they evolve, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes restaurants get their review. Demoting, yeah, on the flip side. Sometimes they get demoted. Sometimes they just say, all right, on to the next one, on to the next one. Yeah, I mean, I think with the investment in the new dual credit system and the real promise of more New York-based reviewing, either be the reboot of Hungry City, only speculation, or just more reviews, that's a great thought. I agree with you fully. I think that there should be a lot of space given to new restaurants and new owners. Absolutely. But also following ups, particularly if it is a profile restaurant that's been— That either went way up or way down.

1:07:29As a consumer, I want to know about that. Yeah, it's a really good call. But I think of restaurants— And you see that in wine criticism all the time. You do. I mean, wine is something that has followed through the years. And we evolve—restaurants evolve just as much as wines do. Yeah. I'm going to leave it at that, Danny. Would you please come back? I hope I will. and hopefully after I publish my first book in 20 years. Yeah, you're working on something here at Penguin Random House. I don't want to spoil a good show, but I'm sure it'll be out soon. So good luck with that. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

1:08:00Thanks, Matt.

1:08:05Lina Chardulo, welcome to This Is Taste. Great to meet you. You as well. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat. I'm a huge fan of Uniscor Cafe. You've been the executive chef there since 2019. And Danny just told us all about the olden days, the old school stories. And we're going to bring this conversation into the present. Before we get to that, though, I always like to ask chefs living in New York, when you're off the clock, where are you dining out these days? So funny you say that. Chefs living in Jersey City. Oh, hell yeah. Raza on that list? Raza. I live four blocks from Raza and Dan's a really close friend.

1:08:39So it's like a it's a non-issue if I have a day out and I'm going to eat. That's where I'm going. Raza. So when you what's the what's the scene check at Raza these days? Busy. Still so busy. Glad I have a connect. Yes. But they're really hospitable. He's actually really upped his game in terms of, like, training staff. They're open more. Yeah. And they're just lovely people who are passionate. Yeah. Let's go into Jersey City. Where else are you liking these days? My other go-to is a place called Taqueria, and it's just the best steak, quesadilla, and chips and salsa. You just want that. Yeah. I want it all the time.

1:09:19Yeah, I really do. I kind of want that for lunch. I'm serious. Yeah, it's so good. It's called Taqueria. It's called Taqueria. All right. Yeah. Taqueria, Jersey City. Tough to Google. Yeah, Taqueria downtown. Try that. Taqueria downtown, Jersey City. That's that spot. I love it there. It's a cool community. It's beautiful. It's really, it's becoming more of a tight-knit community. I've got two kiddos, so you meet a lot of people through kids, and it's great. So, Lena, when you think about Union Square Cafe in the 1980s and Danny painted a really beautiful portrait of it, what comes to mind? What images pop into your head?

1:09:57So keep in mind, I was born in 84, so I'm like about the same age as the restaurant. So it's all hearsay. But from what I gather, I picture a lot of really earnest, really eager people, many of whom don't really know what they're doing, but just like care so much. And that includes Danny, and he would be the first to say it. Just really trying to do something special. I think Danny's superpower is that he's a dreamer and collecting people who can buy into the dream. And so I just imagine a buzzy room. I imagine a very connected, dialed in front of house staff. And Danny and Michael Romano's connection was like really special.

1:10:48Yeah. So that all adds up to something that's kind of like new and magical because he just has this ability to be like, well, why not? So running the kitchen now in the new location, are some of the are some of the old timers coming by? What's it like talking with some of the folks who went to Union Square Cafe in the first couple of years? Oh, yeah. I mean, we still have regulars that say, you know, this was where we this is where I met my wife. We're celebrating our 30 plus anniversary or things like that. It's special to know that the restaurant was a part of someone's life in a really instrumental way.

1:11:25But I think the thing that I keep in mind is like if you're living off of regulars and only their nostalgia, you're not a great restaurant anymore. So what I keep thinking is like I want someone to want to get engaged here now. And I want to hear from them in 25 years about how this has been a part of their life ever since. So I really take it very seriously that people who say like, you know, we're about to have our first baby and this is our last meal out or this is our, you know, we just got married or we have so many people who come from the courthouse and come right after their weddings. And so all of those little like life event moments, like if your insurance is going to change and you can start a cafe as part of that life event, that to me is a cue that like we better take it really seriously.

1:12:15And I hope that we're a part of your life from that point. Your last name changes too. Yeah, it's a big event. I mean, do you have a special button on the toast where it's like life event, newly? I mean, the hospitality is legendary. Obviously, it's in the name of the company. I mean, when you have somebody drop in for 30 minutes married and they're wearing the suits. I mean, it's wild. It feels so important and special. And it's not just the service. It's not just the food. It's like the connectivity with the people. And that's something that Danny started. But like you can't work in our restaurants if that doesn't mean something to you.

1:12:49You just wouldn't fit the culture. How do you splash them? What's the table getting if they're celebrating a life event? Well, OK, here's the thing. That's the whole point, though. is like kind of depends. Yeah. What's the life event? What's going on? We've had people coming in. I had a woman come in who was so freaking pregnant. Yeah. She was like, I'm about to go get induced, but I just wanted one good meal before I went. And so the move for them was like, let her order what she wants. Because if you're nine months pregnant, I don't know what your body needs. You're the only one who could possibly know.

1:13:16But we sent them on their way with like granola for the next day at the hospital and cookies and garlic potato chips to nosh on and like all kinds of snackies for the hospital to be like, okay, when you're there, you're ready now. That's so cool. Whereas like we had someone who came right after they became a citizen. So we got like a bunch of like all American everything and we sent them like a cheeseburger and, you know, like all of that kind of thing. Sweet. Oftentimes it's our tater tots with caviar and champagne because like if you're feeling celebratory, that's a good way to celebrate. That's a beautiful thing.

1:13:51And I love this picture of the woman who's just about to give birth like literally that day. that's like a special kind of New Yorker like that engagement with a restaurant and like there's other cities obviously but I just center it in New York just that type of passion for dining out you find it in New York absolutely it's one of the things that makes it so fun to cook here is that there's a really receptive audience who care about what you're doing so you don't just feel like you're the help thrown to the side like so often chefs are given this massive spotlight and like that's not what it used to be.

1:14:25That's a really cool position to be cast in. You've kind of ducked the spotlight a little bit. I feel like you are, I mean, I know you've got a great PR team and you're doing interviews. You were here today, but you're like a chef chef. You're not a TV chef. No, no, I'm not. I like talking. Yeah, you're great. Thanks. Nice talking to you. I like doing stuff like that, but every time I do it, I also just had to do the cost-benefit analysis of how much it takes me out of the space because I really love restaurants. Yeah. I just – I freaking love restaurants. I love being in my restaurant. I love mentoring my team.

1:15:02I love engaging with guests. And so the opportunity has to feel really worthwhile to take away from the concentrated effort of what we're trying to do. Speaking of mentorship, tell me about coming to Union Square Hospitality and your journey there. Because you didn't start at Union Square Cafe. And who were some of your mentors in the organization? I think it's kind of legendary in the industry about promoting from within. It's obviously a big part of your group. Tell me about your journey. So I was a naive and snobbish culinary school student. I love a snobbish culinary school. It's confidence.

1:15:40No, not like I was confident in my skill. Like I was just sizing up every restaurant. How sustainable are you? Oh, interesting. You know, like I was. Lena, I call that selective. Sure. And you did a cost benefit analysis of your career. Yeah. Well, true. It helped me in the long run. So to that end, I trailed at Gramercy Tavern. It was 2008 or 2009, something like that. And was really into them because of their proximity to the market and all of the talk about that and everything else. At the time, my brother-in-law worked at Union Square Cafe, so I was not going there. And I, you know, thought it was really great, but I also had this love for Italian food.

1:16:29And so when I sat down at the end of my trail, Mike had said to me, I think that you might be a really good fit for this restaurant that we're opening that's called Maialino, and I'd love to introduce you with the chef. You haven't heard of it because it hasn't opened yet, but it should be open around the time that you become available. So I ended up having a meeting with Nick Ander in like the home office. Like there wasn't even a kitchen yet at the time. And I don't think he really wanted to hire me until he asked me about Rome. And I had studied abroad in Rome and he was really passionate about Rome.

1:17:02And he started, what's your favorite restaurant? You know, we started really vibing talking about Rome. And he was like, OK, this girl might not know how to cook, but she gets it. So I got the job without having ever picked up a knife or anything in front of him. And then that was kind of the history of it. So Nick, I think, was my first mentor. I really credit his cooking style with making me as good of a line cook as I was because back then there wasn't sous vide happening in every restaurant. It really was a la minute cooking. It really was like taste every pan. Have an understanding of what you're doing for every single plate.

1:17:36And it was his first executive chef job. So he was critical, which was great. Which is great in the long run. In the short term, it can be challenging if you're. But if you don't want that challenge, you don't want this career. So that's. Well said. That's that. Well said. So that was kind of the start. I went on to work for Mike at Gramercy Tavern, which was kind of like the next step up and then back to working for Nick to open Marta. And I was a sous chef there. And then I'd be remiss not to mention Joe Tarasco, who has been a mentor and close friend for all of those years as well. And worked my way up to executive chef at Marta underneath him as like he was always the boss above me right along the way.

1:18:23And then I've just had a million great people that maybe weren't my boss in the way that they were mentors, but they were my peers. They were the people who I collaborated with. Like the collaboration, I think, is really, really important and special in restaurants. I think the best restaurants happen when the team respect each other's opinions. For sure. And you guys can push back on each other and not have it be personal. Take me back to Myelino, though. I miss that 2010, 2011 Myelino era. It was such a great restaurant. It was so fun to be a part of that restaurant. And the opening of that restaurant has made—maybe this is true for everybody.

1:19:00Like you just work with people and you get so close that there's a team of people that we still get together. I have a party at my house every year that's called Festa della Nona. And like my Maialino guys are always the first ones that get invited. And we literally just hang out all day and cook pasta and pizza. And like now there's kids running around. I had to hire a babysitter to watch all of our kids. I love it. We did it. But it's just such a special group of people and great cooks. I mean, I was cooking next to some phenomenal people. Chris McDade, who has Gus's out in Brooklyn. Tomer Blackman, who's got Miss Otta and Theodora.

1:19:36Like, just phenomenal cooks. Yeah, and Nick is a restaurateur himself. Yeah, Nick now with Anton's and Leon's. So just great people to get to collaborate with. It made it a really fun time. So you're working at Marta, wonderful restaurant as well. I feel like I'm, like, standing hard for Unisker Hospitality, but it's actually not hard because I feel like these restaurants are all like part of New York and covering the scene. I've been to all of them. And tell me about when you get the tap on the shoulder to go to Union Square Cafe, because it's gotta be emotional. I mean, that's a huge job. What's going through your head?

1:20:14Take us to the scene. Sure, it's fall of 2019. I think I did a job interview without realizing it because Danny invited me up to his home in Connecticut to cook for a bunch of people. and I just thought it would be a fun time to go and I got to connect with Danny and hang out with his family and my family came. So it was just a really good time. Looking back, I'm like, oh, maybe that was you thinking about me for this role. And Richard Corain, Danny's like esteemed business partner, had come to me. Union Square Cafe had been without an executive chef for four or five months at this point. Came to me and said, hey, I want to talk to you.

1:20:52Let me know when you have a minute. and then it's like so i've been thinking a lot about you i know you're starting to like get worn out on marta i'd been there for five years at that point i didn't want to keep cooking pizza a lot of tuna and i also just i'd been with the company for a really long time so i i had kind of thought maybe this is the end of my tenure maybe i should start looking to you know go somewhere else and he was like can i speak with you and he said so from what i've heard from you The things that you really love are cooking seasonal produce. That's really important to you and sourcing great product.

1:21:26And I was like, yeah. He was like, OK, cool. And you really, really care about working from the green market and you miss cooking pasta. Is that all true? And I was like, yeah, that's all true. And he was like, cool. Remind me why you haven't applied for the executive chef position at Union Square Cafe. And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of that. No way. And that's that's obviously the truth. You're speaking. Oh, yeah. You just had never you. You were like head down at Marta. You had a big job there, obviously. But you just didn't. Did you not think that you were up for it? I just didn't even.

1:21:56It didn't even occur to me. Amazing. And so then when he pitched it to me, it wasn't an immediate yes. Honestly, I had a trip scheduled to go to Italy and I went to Italy for two weeks on PTO. And I really like went back and forth on it a lot. Obviously, huge platform, great opportunity, but also like doubling down back into saying like, OK, I really am a lifer with this company at this point. Right. So is that keeping me from looking at other opportunities? Is it, you know, is there other growth that I should be considering? I just really wanted to be thoughtful. I didn't want to just dive because it was there.

1:22:31And the other thing is Union Square Cafe had had three executive chefs prior to me, two of them with over 10 years per piece, right? So it's not a job that you're like, oh, yeah, I'll take it. I'll do it for a couple of years and then we'll just see. It's like a job. Yeah, there's a real lineage there. There's been four chefs in the whole existence, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like a sleeper competitive. So in my head, I was also like, I'm not going to do this unless I'm going to be marked on the wall as like worthy and going on an upward trajectory, not just maintaining. So like I need to want to do this for a minimum of five years with some serious goals.

1:23:13So that was a hard debate. It wasn't just like, oh, this could be fun for now. Yeah, I'm sure other people were reaching out to other groups and other restaurants. I mean, I hadn't really said I was looking yet, but I had just started to be in that mindset. So I thought really long and hard about it. And then obviously, ultimately decided that I did want the opportunity and I did think it would be a great chance to cook similar style of food, but like a little bit more elevated. Obviously, getting to do pasta, get even closer to the green market and tell that story even more. So it really excited me in the end.

1:23:49And then the pandemic hit. Yeah, like months later and your role changed dramatically. My roller coaster. Yeah. Yeah. But you were built for it, right? I mean, just knowing you now and hearing your story, I mean, it's a challenging time, but it seems like you were built for it. I think you're absolutely right. It was, Marta was a really scrappy business. It was a hard business and it was why I wasn't going to stay there for that much longer. But it was also why I was like really prepared to deal with the constant up, down, side, side that happened with the pandemic. The only major wrench was I was pregnant for it.

1:24:31So that was a really emotional, hard time. Yeah. But you got through it and we'll move beyond the pandemic. And I think I first went post-pandemic maybe a year and a half ago and I've been a couple times since. And, man, it's such a great restaurant. I think there's seasonality always there, which is the core of these restaurants that you guys do. But there's also just an elevation of cuisine where you can do the anniversary and not feel like you're, you know, like not celebrating. It can be a fancy restaurant if you want to be a fancy restaurant. Yeah. I mean, what was your approach when you took over?

1:25:09And I think for our listeners, Danny, we didn't really get into it, Danny. What is the restaurant? What is the cuisine? What are some of the menu? I'm just like, this is the time to talk about your cooking. Sure. Awesome. That's good. That's my favorite thing to talk about. I think Union Square Cafe, first of all, it's a something for everyone restaurant. So it really is a choose your own adventure. It's a random Wednesday sitting at the bar. It's celebrate your anniversary. It's celebrate the 40th anniversary of the restaurant, right? Like it could be whatever you want it to be. in terms of what the food is, my goal is really cook food that excites me, cook the food that I would want to go out and eat, which means that it has to be seasonally driven.

1:25:49It means that it has to be interesting without being challenging. Great, great, great point of view. And comforting in a way where it feels like you're really being taken care of. That's the reason why working with Danny has always been really easy for me. I've never felt like he's pressing on me to say, oh, you have to do this or that. Like we have similar taste. We both want the same things. So food items that are really exciting me are ever changing. I am for as much as I love like a system and a steady thing that makes the staff. I am constantly changing the menu because there's just constantly good stuff out there that you want to use.

1:26:25And it's inspiring. So and the relationships you have with farmers and vendors make you say like, oh, they are excited about this or oh, they need to move this for their business to be sustainable. So like you can pick up on me. You can pick up a bunch of product, produce, if you're doing like 500 covers that day. Like you can really change their view. Yeah, I can move the needle for a certain small farmer, right? So that's a lot of power. And so great power comes with great responsibility, right? I love that. Yeah, so menu items that I'm loving right now, I would say we have a tomato tonado salad on the menu.

1:27:04So it's like a tonnato sauce that has heirloom tomatoes and mixed cherry tomatoes, tons of basil. Again, it's simple. I'm not reinventing a wheel here. But we did it for an event last year at the end of summer. And I was like, this will be my tomato dish next year. This was too good not to do. We have a zucchini carpaccio appetizer that is just so craveable and delicious. And it's, again, it's not anything wild. But zucchini. It's got this wooly-wooly sheep's milk cheese grated over the top that's coated with honey and oregano. Oh, beautiful. Love that. That's really fun. I think our pastas are best in class.

1:27:46I often think, like, for not being a technically Italian restaurant, I'm such a pasta snob, and there's not that many places I want to go and eat pasta because I just love ours so much. from things that are classic, like our mafaldine di natra, which is a duck ragu that has amaro and castovitrano olives, orange-scented pistachios. It's very Sicilian ingredient-driven. That's kind of like a mainstay on the menu. But then there's seasonal ones like our corn agnolotti, even our spaghetti pomodoro. It uses three different kinds of tomatoes and all different states of being raw and cooked. And it's just like really a celebration of the season.

1:28:27And then I didn't even get to our proteins and what we're sourcing there. Yeah, it's an Italian restaurant. I'm just going to say it. It's what it is. I mean, it's your point of view. It's what you align with Danny. And, yeah, I've had, I think, those pastas you mentioned, I've tasted those. And it's exceptional. Are you doing— It's a New York Italian restaurant, though. Fair. Because it's not like when you go to Italy and you eat the food there. It's not that either. Because I've thought about this a lot as I go back to Italy. it's got the perspective of a New Yorker which I think is important because Union Square Cafe is a New Yorker's restaurant at the end of the day it's a statement of what New York should be well I think you're not tied to a region when you're done in Italy obviously you're having the regional cuisine that's just the way it is you're not having Sicilian food in Emilia-Romagna it's just not happening but you have to survey for New York diners and Italians or Italian lineage you want it yeah and some of my favorite compliments are the Italians that come in and they're so like oh oh my God, I haven't had pasta like this.

1:29:26This is amazing. Like I haven't had this good of pasta in so long. I didn't expect to be able to find it here. I dined with some chefs at a work dinner there this spring. They weren't from Italy, but they were from like Germany and they were well versed in Italian cooking and they were down. That's awesome. It was cool. It was cool to have that audience when trying a restaurant. Yeah. Because they're, you know, tough crowd. Oh, for sure. We're the worst. Also, I'd be remiss not to mention Tony Weiberg, our executive pastry chef, because her desserts are also just firing on all cylinders. And I think...

1:29:59Yes, they are. Our menu, one of the things that makes me so proud is it's really cohesive. So you go to Union Square and you may not be able to name exactly what the identity is. Is it Italian? Is it whatever? But everything makes sense. And from start to finish, it just feels like a story that's being told to you with the perfect conclusion. I brought this up with Danny and just looking at the credits of the restaurant, the website, I just noticed, and you're not overplaying this, but it's your beverage director, GM, yourself, and your pastry chef are all women. Yeah. And that's very cool. Yeah.

1:30:29I mean, that's obviously coming from the chef and Danny from you. I mean, what's – I don't want to say it's a strategy that's too broad, but what's it like having that dynamic? What it's like is awesome. There you go. It's awesome. But it's also – it's just everyone's really talented. Yeah. Everyone's really working with each other to some extent. saying, oh, it's all women. Was that a strategy? Like, no, it's just the right people for the job who are really capable and excited. And again, it's like a lot of what I think about when I look back at what I imagine Union Square was like before. It's like dreamers who care, who want to just like elevate every day and have this like deep rooted integrity and excellence in terms of whatever their niche of a restaurant is, whether it's service or beverage or pastry or savory, Like when you can find four professionals who really are all enrolled in that same vision, it's special.

1:31:24And in this case, we have happened to have four women who feel that way. I just was interviewing Evan Funke in Los Angeles and he in a future episode. And he really was articulate about why women are just better chefs. Do you agree? I mean, I don't know. Truly, I spent a lot of my career cooking next to men. And I am not going to make a statement one way or the other. But I like us. Yeah, exactly. I'll let you wait for Evan's quotes about that. That was really smart, the way he put it. How do you and Danny collab then on these changes? I mean, is there a workflow that you run it off the top or is it just like your menu, your restaurant?

1:32:02Yeah, it's my menu, my restaurant. The best part of working with Danny is that like you don't work for him if he doesn't trust you. So I just make a restaurant that I really like. And when he comes in, he orders like a normal guest. Every once in a while, if I've got something new, I'll maybe send it in because I'm excited about it and say, hey, I just wanted you to taste this. It's going to be coming soon or just hit the menu or whatever it might be. But we have a really respectful, great relationship that I'm very fortunate for. He does not push me. Every once in a while, he'll say, hey, did you ever think about like doing one of these?

1:32:35That's his angle. OK. And if I say no, he'll go, OK. Give me an example of a no. Tuna burger. I'm sorry to all of those out there who want it back. It's not my preference. Can we do two minutes on this? Sure. Horrible dish. I've never, I mean, usually you're. I'm not going to talk smack about it. Okay, I will. It's just not my food. And so right now we have this menu that's a statement of time and place. That's the best version of a restaurant. It's a statement of where you are and when you're there. And it should be this beautiful snapshot of that. The tuna burger, it's a look back, but it's not where we are currently.

1:33:12So I'm not going to talk smack about it because at the time, it was a great dish. Yeah. At the time, it was revolutionary. At the time, it was freaking awesome. But it's not that time anymore. So when we're talking about time and place, Union Square Cafe 2025, it's just not it. Would you ever put swordfish on the menu? I love swordfish. It would be my pleasure. I'm thinking swordfish sandwich. Oh, no, I'm thinking swordfish grilled and then rested in a lot of burf fondue. That's the guy. Yeah, that's what's going to happen. Swordfish is so amazing. Yeah. It's also extremely dated for some people.

1:33:45Oh, I don't. I actually at the dinner that I maybe got my job from cooking for Danny, I believe I cooked swordfish. And I had a woman who asked me if it was tofu because she'd never had anything that tender before. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly the answer with swordfish preparation. Like if you cook it correctly, there's nothing better than it. I love it as well. I just think there's this perception that it's like a 1990s and 80s food. Well, in that case, let's bring it back. Bring it back. Yeah, hell yeah. I love it. You were quick to say the tuna burger. You got to give me one more. This is like in service of getting your tastes out there.

1:34:17What's another like no-go for you? From an old menu? Or just like a concept that you just aren't, that isn't Union Square Cafe that maybe was presented and not seeing Danny. Honestly, people don't really present too much. The biggest thing that I try to do is just, it's hard. We're not a Roman trattoria, right? We're not a French bistro. We're not any of these things, but we kind of define ourselves as a three-legged stool of Italy, France, and market-driven, inspired by the, like, Berkeley food movement, you know, that was happening when Union Square opened. So in terms of what are my no-gos, someone could make a really beautiful, tasty plate of food for me that is really far out there.

1:35:04Like obviously tastes like it's, I don't know, Indian or Japanese or whatever, right? And it could be delicious and I could really enjoy eating it, but it doesn't make sense on our menu. Yeah. So like my job is to put the bumper rails on our menu and say it's OK to play. And in fact, that's what makes us great and creative. But let's make sure that we have some idea of telling people where they are. Yeah. Those those three legs of the stool make sense. I mean, can you cook with soy sauce? Yes. But the answer is always yes. But yeah, we have I think we have soy sauce and something right now, in fact.

1:35:44But it's like it shouldn't be obvious. Yeah. It might be that like je ne sais quoi that you need to make it come through, you know. Fish sauce, soy sauce, all of those things can be really great instruments for cooking. We use a ton of influence from all different kinds of things. We use koji to marinate our ribeye. But it shouldn't be the headline. It should just be the thing that makes it delicious. That's it. It's part of the process of cooking and not the headline and the flavor profile that might confuse people. Yeah, I never want to gate people from using awesome ingredients or being creative or learning about what's out there because the minute we do that, we stifle ourselves.

1:36:20I love that point of view. Do your cooks pitch you ideas or how do the cooks, how do their creative and their interests keep them interested? Do they get dishes on the menu sometimes? Cooks do but rarely. Yeah, yeah. We do a crudo of the day, so that's a really good opportunity for people who want to learn how to manage new dishes. as part of our seafood platter. We have a crudo of the day. So that's a cool opportunity for cooks. Outside of that, sous chefs certainly work on the menu. My chef de cuisine, Andrew, and I collaborate a ton on the menu. And we kind of invite other people in to be a part of that process.

1:36:55So I bought myself a case of red pencils. And I mark that baby up pretty much every two to three weeks with all of my ideas and thoughts and prayers. I usually have a column on the left that's every ingredient that I know is about to come into season or that I'm excited about, and I start kind of figuring and placing where I want them to land on the menu. And then whatever I can't do myself, I start to kind of say, all right, which one are you excited about? Which one are you passionate about? What do you want to work on? What are your hours like these days? I mean, we're speaking with an active chef who has a busy restaurant.

1:37:29I always want to ask that. On average, 1030 to 1030. Yeah. But I'm working on early out Fridays. We'll see if I'm consistent. That would be great for you. That would be great for my kiddos. Five days a week? Six days a week? Five days. Good, good. Honestly, like, I sometimes tell people my hours now and people will go like, oh, wow, but this is nothing. This is a really, really great gig I've got. And when I look back at stuff I've done historically, this is a pleasure. I mean, like, making pizza dough for the next couple days. I mean, that's like into the morning sometimes. Well, I wasn't the one making the pizza dough, to be clear.

1:38:04Yeah, or managing it. Managing that business was a lot harder. Yeah. And that was also four businesses in one. Yeah, it's a lot. That was a busy restaurant. So where do you want to be in 10 years? I want to leave with that last question. I'm not certain, but I've been noodling about the idea of opening a place in Jersey City. So the dining scene there, I think there's a lot of opportunity. Yeah, there are. There's not as many restaurants that I would like to eat in as Jersey City. And my kids are getting older and they're going to grow up there. So the idea of creating community is something that I really take away from Union Square.

1:38:41It's something I emulate a lot. It's created a community. Can you do both jobs? Ha! Don't ask my husband. But I think the idea of taking that and doing it on potentially a much smaller scale, but like having that same notion of bringing people together, making people feel comfortable over food, over, you know, breaking bread at a table. that's always the end goal. How we get there, we'll have to see. I loved catching up with you. I hope we can chat again, Lina, about maybe this new restaurant and of course Union Square Cafe. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you.

1:39:22This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, Director of Media Production and Development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.