644: Please No More “Burrata Restaurants" with Jeff Gordinier

27:25And now The Four Horsemen is a cornerstone of New York dining. We had Nick Cartola on about six months ago talking about the 10-year and the cookbook. Astonishing. That's the cool thing about covering the food scene is you go into a piece and you're reporting it and you're like, I don't think this one's going to make it. And then all of a sudden it changes. Is Sound of Silver the goaded album for LCD? Do you have like a ranking of their albums? No, I don't. We're going music right now. Yeah, no, I just always, as a Gen Xer, I'm 58, you know, losing my edge is just something of an anthem for me that I go back, just that song, over and over I go back to that song, and it seems truer with every passing year.

28:07Every play of that song. I mean, now the generation coming up is literally my daughter's generation. You know, my daughter's Margo, my eldest of four kids, is now 22. And it's, you know, anyway, I see her friends starting to work in media. And I'm like, this is amazing. I mean, so, yeah. But a lot of stories came about that way. I think sometimes I got some pats on the back for like, how did you get that scoop? I mean, a lot of it was legwork. I was always walking around. I walk everywhere. I was always going places. I went with friends. I remember vividly for dinner at Santina near the High Line, which was one of the major food group restaurants.

28:55Yeah. I was just there having dinner, and Jeff Zalosnik, part of the triad, the power triad of major food group, came up, and he whispered in my ear, you know, we're taking over the Four Seasons. No joke. And I was like, wait, what? And I was like, hold on, hold on. I told my friends, just keep that thought. I got to go talk to him. And he's like, oh, wow. Golly, maybe I shouldn't have said something. But yeah, I was like. Jeff knew what he was doing. I mean, Jeff is like the mastermind behind major and doesn't obviously. I was like, that is, as you know, extraordinarily big news. I would like to have that scoop if possible.

29:32He was like, yeah, yeah, let's do that. So I wrote that up. But it was, you know, I mean, maybe they would have called me anyway. But it seemed to happen organically because he just walked by my table. It's a memorable piece. I read it last night because I was curious what you were thinking when reporting it. There's a portrait of the three of them just sitting in this iconic dining room in Midtown. And for many who covered food at the time, this was a huge moment for that group. I mean, the group was known for downtown cool and Carbone obviously was the anchor. But then they're like, we're going and taking over this iconic Midtown space.

30:08And I think their trajectory has only gone up since then. And it was a really key moment for Major Food Group. So on reflecting on the piece, like were there things that you reported in that moment that could make you predict that they would become as big as they are today? Yes, I would say in the case of Mario and Rich and Jeff, it's the opposite of how I felt with Four Horsemen. I felt from the moment I met Mario and Rich and Jeff, that they would be huge. I thought they were enormous, sort of almost like once in a generation talents. And I mean, this goes back to when I first went to Terezi Italian Specialties, the first one.

30:52When I started at the Times, that was still a fairly new restaurant. and Julia Moskin, my sister at the time who sat near me, she's like, you have to eat there. I'm going to take you. And we went together and I instantly got it. I was like, this is extraordinary. This is like the Noma of New York. I just, I was blown away. The Noma of New York. Yeah, I loved, I really thought. Like for you personally, that was the feeling you had. I thought it was telling the story of New York in such a deep way, but everything was delicious and it was somehow just unpretentious. Like what I love about what Major Food Group does is that they deliver art and they deliver fun in equal measure.

31:29Like it's a party and it's also, particularly in the case of Teresi, it's more than just fun, you know, and it's telling a story. As is Tatiana, a Kwame's restaurant. I love those restaurants. So I always thought they were, they had a vision. And, you know, I actually, I'm never going to be the critic of the New York Times, nor do I want to be. Really? No, I couldn't eat that way anymore. And I just, I prefer to write about people and things. But it has crossed my mind that were I in that position, there are three restaurants that I would have given four stars. Let's go there. I love this. I love this exercise.

32:13And I love Pete Wells. He's like a brother to me. Yeah. I think he's a genius. My only little wrinkle of criticism is that I think he should have rung the brass bell more. Like, giving out four stars a few more times. I loved how Frank Bruni did that. You know, glory. And, like, also because there's that sense of passing the torch generationally. And the four stars should not only sit with the old guard. They should be passed to the new guard. And there are restaurants now that have passed that should have gotten four, in my opinion. But they're gone. So it doesn't matter. But Terezi, I think, deserves four stars.

32:49I do. And now you may say, well, that's not a tasting menu. I don't think tasting menus are the only four-star experiences. I think a restaurant where the cooking is at that level, the hospitality is at that level, and you feel you're at the molten core of New York City, you are in the hottest place in the city, that's four stars to me. I mean, I can make the argument that Hossak Piet should be four stars too. I mean, it's number five on the list today, this morning, and I'm just adding that wrinkle. You know, I think they need to rethink what a four-star restaurant is. I have I'm candidly I went to lunch at Le Bernardin yesterday with Michael Sebastian the editor of Esquire I still believe that Le Bernardin deserves four stars of course I'm not I think it's exquisite it's it's it's it's the highest but the other two are Adamix I think Adamix absolutely I can't believe it doesn't have four stars it is probably the best tasting menu in the country and this is a my hyperbolic enthusiasm as I'm possibly getting the best of me because I just went here on Sunday night, but I was so moved by the experience.

33:54I believe that Bungalow deserves four stars. Oh, yeah. Four stars. Amazing. I have not been to Bungalow. I've heard so many great things about it. It's like you've walked into a wedding or a family reunion. It's like there's so much joy in that room. You feel like if people just started breaking the song, it would not surprise you. It makes sense. The cooking is incredible. Vick Ascana is one of the great chefs in the world, But it's also the approach to hospitality has a warmth, a genuine warmth, like a love that I've never encountered. I'm serious. It was like a different feeling in terms of a restaurant experience.

34:32And I found myself wanting to go back, wanting to kind of move in there. Like you pass through different rooms as well. And there's one room where it just seemed like all these people were just kind of hanging out, celebrating, loving each other. And I've never been in a restaurant of that caliber that had so many kids in it. There were lots of little kids. There were lots of grandmas and aunties. I love that observation. It's so smart. I think when you can break form and it's not just entertaining, it's not just like a closing dinner for a hedge fund. It's honestly a place for everyone. I mean, there's a price point barrier, but that's a really good point.

35:07To see families, to see these grandmas with their grandkids on their laps. I was actually moved to tears. I know this sounds overly emotional, but I was like, this is such a special place. I didn't realize. I mean, Priya Krishna got it right. She gave it three stars, but I actually think it even deserves four. I started as a food writer at The Times, you know, as much more of an amateur than I realized, to your point, Matt, because I don't think I realized quite how ignorant I was. I thought I knew stuff because I ate out a lot and I read a lot of books about food and I knew a few chefs. But only after a few years on the job did I realize that my knowledge was finally starting to deepen.

35:52And I think only now am I really becoming a food writer. Like I think I've finally gotten to the point where I'm not just intrigued by personalities, but I'm intrigued by – I'm drawn to ingredients and techniques and I actually want to learn about cooking in a sort of granular Bill Buford way. And at first, I was really just drawn to these fascinating personalities. I was the same way. I'll share my story because I wrote about music. I wrote a lot for Spin Magazine, Big Takeover. I worked at websites. I wrote for like all sorts of publications about music. And I was similar to you. I loved the characters.

36:29I loved I loved the energy. I loved the secrets being shared. But I hated the one hour blocks. I hated that's right. Getting the duds because, of course, talking to a, you know, like like a vagrant records band about their their album is not going to give you the material that I craved as a journalist. But then I started writing about food in like 04. And I met David Waltuck. And I met this random guy. I had no idea. And that was my journey was like interviewing a chef for the first time. And they gave me the time. We share that kind of path. And I agree with you. I totally, until I started writing cookbooks, I was like imposter.

37:02I felt like I didn't know. I could write a good story like yourself. But man, I didn't know the detail of the food. And I felt super nervous writing about food because there were so many great talents around it. So we share that. Yeah. I mean, there's imposter syndrome. And there are also occasionally imposters, you know. Yes. And I think there was a moment when maybe I was one. But I think I aged out of it. I worked my way out of it. And now I know a lot. Yes. And in fact, you know, I'm one of the handful of people who travels around the country. People actually travel around the country going to all these restaurants, scouting out the best places.

37:38So, I mean, do I know everything? Of course not. Like only, you know, only beginning to know. But I feel more of a sense of command now. And, you know, ignorance can be a powerful engine, though, in the beginning. Like people blunder into these beats and they think they know what they're talking about. And, you know, I cringe thinking of some of my early stories. What's the editor? It's the editor who corrects you. The editor saved me. Because you start seeing the line editor like, oh, my God, I had no idea. Like I was so ignorant on that ingredient or that technique or that cuisine or that culture.

38:16I remember Pete Wells saying to me like you are forbidden from using the word eatery. Yes. And I was like, oh my God, you're right. That is such a cheesy word. But that never really crossed my mind. And I think I dropped into a story just to avoid saying restaurant over and over. And he was like, no, no, no, no. You will not under my watch use eatery. It's on our band words list. We have a pretty significant band words list at Taste and that's definitely one of them. Yeah. Spot as well. Absolutely. Oh, I use spot sometimes. You have to flip into spot. Jeff, I want to ask you straight up, what was the most difficult story to report for you in the food world?

38:50That's a good question. I did a piece about the sort of schism at Roberta's when the founders of Roberta's kicked out one of the guys. And candidly, I can't remember everyone's names. um sam siftin uh was sort of my editor at the time and has a deep emotional investment in robertas you know it's a place that he's uh been an advocate for for many years and he understands the cultural magnitude of robertas you know and uh and so this was an important story to him so there was a lot of um scrutiny from sam and there was pressure in the in the reporting sense um But I know how to do that. So, I mean, I started covering City Hall as a newspaper reporter back in the 80s and 90s.

39:40So, I mean, I can do that kind of serious reporting. And I remember I got these wild, candid, unfiltered emails from Ken Friedman, who at the time had some vantage point on this schism at Roberta's. And Ken somehow did not, it did not cross his mind that he was speaking to a reporter. So I just, you know. What was Ken's relationship to Rurda's and also like Ken Friedman? Wow. I know. I know. I missed that one. I mean, I interviewed him. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story.

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41:10There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe.

41:45George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed. And I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi. And I pressure-cooked with water and apple cider vinegar. It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste.

42:25Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you a couple times. I'd have to go back to the story and look. I can't remember the contours of it. But yeah, it was, you know, and then he was like mad. Like, wait, why'd you publish that? I'm like, when I'm asking a question as a reporter, you know, you know, you know, the ground rules here. You know what I mean? Yeah. But that was, that was a, it was a sticky one. What about like, I get that if it's like a news story that has, you know, court records in the flow that obviously has to have, has a weight to it, especially in the New York Times.

43:11But what about just a story that just a report from like maybe a difficult subject or somebody who started difficult and ended up great or just like some hardship that you had like driving around and you needed to go to like three or four places in a day? I don't know. Well, I've had that with Esquire. I've had the scouting for best new restaurants be so grueling that I actually thought I was going to have a stroke. I mean, I'm not joking. I had one week where I was in Asheville, North Carolina, and then I drove the next day to Birmingham, Alabama, which I do not advise. It turns out it's like eight hours away.

43:50And I ate at Automatic Seafood and Oysters. The next day I drove to Atlanta. The next day I flew to Miami. The next day I flew to Austin, Texas. The next day I flew to Los Angeles. And the next day I flew home to New York. And when I got home, my wife looked at me and she was like, you look like you're going to die. I mean, this is real. And every single place I was eating so gluttonously and doing the legwork for Best New Restaurants, trying to visit as many places as possible, also lunches and bars. And, but, you know, a lot of times the flight would be at seven or eight in the morning. So you have to get up at four or five in your hotel.

44:34So I'm exhausted and bloated. And so not necessarily difficult in terms of a person who is not forthcoming or something like that. Difficult physically. Difficult mentally and physically. Like I felt a sense of inner rot. You know, like, oh, a lot of the people who came before me, you know, Jay Gold and my predecessor at Esquire, Joshua Ozersky, A.A. Gill died, you know, doing this. And I got to take this seriously, you know, like I and that's part of how Best New Restaurants evolved into being a group effort. It was like I cannot do this alone anymore. I'm scared, actually. I'm scared about my health.

45:17And I have children. I want to be around for them, you know. And it's also richer and deeper as a list when different voices are contributing. Yeah, you've done a terrific job, Esquire. I have a lot of questions about that. But let's go back a little bit. And I think listeners may think this is the dream job. And complaining about anything restaurant-related is a foolish task. Because, like, really, this is a dream job. But it's clear that in the last five years, the reason you had to travel like that is budget. But you couldn't – like they didn't have the budget for you to be in each city for three days to give you that one prep day, two days of visits, and then fly out.

45:57I mean that's the reality of doing this work. And I think every publication, including the New York Times, faces this fact where there are budgetary constraints. Absolutely. Yes. And so you find ways – you find sort of hacks, right? Like one of my hacks has been for years to take wealthy friends out with me because I don't like comps. I don't, you know, I, I'm an old school journalist. And so I prefer to have one of my old college pals who worked in tech pay for dinner. I'm like, I'll get us in, you pay. But, but, you know, like, for instance, I was here in New York recently for the chef conference.

46:36I was in Philadelphia for the chef conference. I'm here now for business meetings and an award ceremony. and I try to consolidate, you know, like if someone else is paying for my travel, I am still like my family. Like we have that kind of Broadway show mentality. We want to see the new show. Let's see the new show, you know? So when I come to the city, the last three times I went to Bridges, I went to Borgo, I went to Ada, the new iteration of Ada. I went to Cravette, went to Bungalow. I'm going to go get lunch today at Levodore with my literary agent. And, you know, I mean, I could go to old school places that are my favorites, but I, you know, people are like, well, you don't always have to go to the new ones.

47:19And I'm like, for some reason I do. For some reason you do. And that leads to my next series of questions is Esquire. Big list. You have a multiple, we've had Joshua David Stein on a couple of times. Now we have you under the lead of this package. And Esquire, it still carries a lot of weight. I mean, these are important lists and it puts, It changes these restaurants, future and trajectory. And you're out scouting now. Is this something that is going to remain at Esquire? You can speak specifically or just in general. Do you feel these lists will continue to have clout and they'll be financed by the publishing companies?

47:57Not eternally. But, you know, for now, I mean, that's a good question. Right now I'm in the midst of my ninth one. And, Matt, I did not anticipate getting to that point. I from the beginning said I'll do like four of them and then I'll move on. But I believe in the franchise. I love the editors I work with at Esquire. The budget is not awesome. It's not it's not it's not huge, but like we do the best we can. And I like standing up for good places and good people. I like this kind of catalytic energy, this sort of pixie dust in the air feeling when you go into a place and the magic starts to happen.

48:42You know, if you're scouting out, like, everybody will tell you. Everybody who's done this, you know, Kuchbu, you know, everybody who's done this kind of work. But you have to go to a lot of mediocre restaurants. There's a lot of places I don't post. I don't, like, it was just kind of generic, you know. It was like another burrata restaurant, basically. But every now and then, magic happens, and it's an extraordinary feeling, and it's like watching a great film or hearing a great album for the first time, and you're like, oh, yes, this is on, this is happening. And in the list, there are fewer and fewer of these lists.

49:16GQ doesn't do it anymore, our direct competitor. I mean, the primary lists in terms of best new restaurants are the Times, Esquire, and Bon App. And Food & Wine. Food & Wine is best new chefs. Best new chefs, and the UFS new restaurants. It's just terrific. But, I mean, that's kind of it now. There's not, like, as many as there used to be. There's the regional ones, which are really well done, the San Francisco Chronicle, the LA Times, et cetera. By the way, the teams, the team of the LA Times, now that I live in Los Angeles, I mean, talk about dream teams. They're really extraordinary. I love it.

49:48I read every Sunday. I read the paper. I think that they're putting out incredible work there. They really are. And they're working under a pretty tough situation with ownership and a lot of turmoil in that organization. And they're continuing to put out great work. Jeff, what are some cities that you're focusing on right now? Because I've had all those publications mentioned. I've had the lead editors on talking about their list. And I like to ask about – because you can't go to every major city. You can't go to top 25 DMAs and go every – because of the budget and the time. You have to make choices.

50:21So what are some choices you're making this year? It's such a smart question. You know, I recently went to father's office in Culver City because Brian Gallagher happened to be in town. He's from the New York Times and he kind of oversees their list. Congratulations, Brian, on the new one. Yeah, just out this morning. And I'd never met him before, and we just started texting or something. And he was telling me about the extensive team that they have. And so, you know, if they just feel slightly curious about Omaha, they can go to Omaha. You know what I mean? They're just like, I feel like someone needs to go to Anchorage.

50:58You know, we don't have that luxury. Our team is limited, and so we do a lot of due diligence. Basically, you spend a lot of time Googling and talking to, you know, your sources on the street in various places. Like, what's happening? There's something happening in Memphis or not? Because I'm not coming for another burrata restaurant. I don't have the money, you know. And I don't have the luxury in terms of caloric intake. I don't want to hurt myself for no reason. Right, right. You know, so I'm extremely excited about San Diego. Very cool. I gotta be. I'm mostly focusing on the West because I live in the West now.

51:37So I'm basically going to do the whole Pacific Coast and hopefully Hawaii. I don't know. We'll see. But, boy, San Diego, particularly northern San Diego, the little towns like Oceanside, Carlsbad, Lucadia, Encinitas, absolutely some of the most. You should listen to our episode. We went up to Carlsbad and Oceanside. Holy cow. How did I miss that? And Clayton Eliza and I took a road trip up there. I'll send it to you. Anyways, continue. I mean, I just went to a restaurant called Lulu, L-E-U, L-E-U, from Claudette Cepeda, who's one of the, you know, one of the famous chefs in the country. She was on Top Chef and everything.

52:10And has been in Esquire Best New Restaurants for her El Hardin previously she had in San Diego. And, I mean, this is just this beautiful bungalow meets boudoir kind of hangout with vinyl records and bottles of wine everywhere and incredibly quirky, soulful design. And I thought, this is a restaurant. It couldn't be anywhere else. This is her. This is an expression of Claudette and an expression of Lucadia, which is this funny little, like, bohemian enclave. It's cool. And so I have been going a lot. My parents live in Laguta Beach. Yeah. So I'll sort of go there. Hop down to Carlsbad. Yeah, drop off the twins, then I cruise through Camp Pendleton and just start hitting those little – you've got Matsu in Oceanside.

52:56You've got Valle. I mean, it's Comador Nishi in La Jolla. Have you been there? No, I haven't. It's a restaurant that specializes in Mexican breakfast. Yeah. What could be better than that? That's great. San Diego, we had a great time there in that episode and just spending a few days there. And we went out and hung out at Chino Farms with those guys. And they're just a wealth of information. You could try the ice cream out there if you've ever had it. I feel like in India, I'll go back and listen, Matt. I have these twin seven-year-olds, and they gobble up a lot of my media time. Well, we have only a few more minutes.

53:32I want to talk to you about your piece for Food and Wine. Oh, yeah. Which has been honored by both ASME and the James Beard Foundation, which is really, really high regards from awards committees. But also just from my own reading of it last night, I was just struck by it. How a single grain shaped the history of the city and holds the keys to its future. you and George went on the road together a really creative duo and tell us a little bit about the piece I'm going to link to in the show notes you should definitely check it out but how did it come about and what was the reporting like for it?

54:08It's like the planets aligned on this one every now and then in your career the planets align I've known George McCombin for 30 years I love him he's a dear friend we work together at Entertainment Weekly he is an artist he's a designer he has his own design company But he's also a writer and a scholar, and he has a book out called Illustrated Black History that's award-winning. We happened to be in conversation with Hunter Lewis, actually about some potential other projects. And Hunter brought up this idea because they were about to do a food and wine classic gathering. That's usually in Aspen, et cetera.

54:43And they were doing the first one in Charleston. And he was like, I want to do a piece about the history of Charleston, maybe about rice. what would you guys think about collaborating on that? And I was like, oh boy, this sounds great. Like, I mean, and our editor is Karen Shimizu. Karen's great. And so George and I went to Charleston together. Neither of us are from there, admittedly, but we started interviewing as many people as we could. And I had never done interview, I never done joint interviews. I never done an interview with another journalist present. and I want to do all my interviews that way moving forward.

55:22George's questions deepen the experience. He was also sketching portraits of the people. Very cool. He was drawing while you were recording. While we spoke with him and then he would sort of flip the portrait around and say, oh, Miss Charlotte, here's what I'm drawing. Talk about opening up an interview. Well, he's extraordinarily charming and thoughtful, but I just think having a person there with a different sensibility, who takes the conversation in a different way. And I would just shut up for a while and let George lead the conversation and take my notes and listen. And I found that these conversations were going in places that surely I should have thought of, but hadn't.

56:01And they just took on a deeper emotional tone, a deeper philosophical tone. So the piece essentially composed itself during those interviews. And then George and I driving around in the rental car together. When we went to interview Roland Chalmers, who's a black rice farmer, it turns out he was like two and a half hours south of Charleston. We didn't really know that. And it was raining, so it was a really long ride. So George had to listen to me singing quite a bit. I think he's forever scarred by my version of Born on the Bayou. But when I was not singing at the top of my lungs, which I do in rental cars, I think I'm a journalist really just because I like road trips.

56:42We talked. We talked incessantly about what the story should be. And the story sort of wrote itself in that rental car as we bandied back and forth ideas of where to begin, what the lead would be, et cetera. And to be honest with you, it's not what we turned in. It didn't run verbatim, but it's almost essentially what ran because we had thought about it so much leading up to that point um we were early we turned in the story a week early actually i think karen was shocked yeah sort of like wait what's that but when you well you know you have a good one when the energy is there and you're not like noodling and you're not re-reporting or going out i mean that's i know that feeling that's right you just feel like the planets have aligned like you're in the that flow state and um you know george and i i mean there's friction too I mean, I hate to use a boomer metaphor, but I've described George and I as sort of like Lennon and McCartney.

57:41And I'm McCartney. Okay, like I can write the pop song. I can write the melody you won't forget. But George was asking the deeper questions and bringing a stronger, more acute sense of history to that. And, you know, together, writing a song together, wow. Wow. I really, in my dream world, if media were like this, George McCallman and I would now do 20 more stories together. I hope you can. Yeah, I don't know if he feels that way. No, he's got a successful design business. He's got a lot to do, but I would love to do a whole book of stories with him. I hope you can do that, Jeff. Yeah. And I hope you can come back and talk about more of your work.

58:20Oh, thanks, Matt. Let's have you back. Thank you so much for joining us this day. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. I've always wanted to be on this show. Appreciate that. It's been a bucket list thing. I appreciate it. It's happened. That means a lot. I listen to it all the time. I love it. Oh, thanks, man. So I was like, why have I not been on that show? Well, here you are, and I want you back. Thank you so much, buddy. Thank you.

58:43This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.