646: Hot Takes and Hotter Copy with Khushbu Shah

23:51Try it out. Try it out. I've been meaning to go to Claudette Zepeda as a new restaurant. It's kind of in San Diego, but she actually has like a whole menu of sundaes as for the dessert menu. See, that's kind of cool too. Like if you have like a sundae menu and you have three sundaes. So fun. You obviously want to try two. Yes. You're already upselling on the pastry side. And if you have anybody who's like doesn't want the like, you know, little tarts or. Also, yeah, you know, it's like they're so easy to make to order. Yeah. So nice. There's no waste, you know. Fair enough. I like this move. Okay.

24:25You were blessed with a early taste of Beyond Meat Steak, which I have a lot of questions. Blessed is a strong word. Okay. You put on your reporter cap. You put on your reporter's cap and went down to wherever they were doing it. I think they did a New York event. I couldn't make that one. Yeah. But you did the work. They did a steakhouse here. Yeah. Oh, they went to a steakhouse. Yeah. Which is, I mean, that's fascinating. Clever. And they did all the sides and made it up like you're having the cream spinach. No cream spinach, but like a French fry situation. Okay. Yeah. So tell me about it. What was your impression?

25:00I'm not sure who it's for. Yeah. I appreciate that they're making this. It's also a much like kind of cleaner ingredient list than a lot of these other meat substitutes have sort of had in the past. Yeah. It actually has protein, which I think has always been a complaint, too, that, you know, a lot of these meat substitutes don't also necessarily have protein. So, like, why would I eat it? Especially in this, like, protein maxing world that we, like, live in now. Great voice. You embody it so well. Protein max. Yeah. But they use mycelium, which is really interesting as far as, like, texture goes.

25:32It's very – I hate steak. I've never – so maybe this is – it's never meant for someone like me anyway. No, it's not. But I hate steak because of the sinewy texture, but they nail the sinewy texture, which is, I think, a reason why people perhaps really like steak, that gristle. I hate it. I don't want to feel like I'm eating, like, fleshy, flesh, flesh. I think my read is, like, you want contrast. And I think when you have a ribeye that has been really, really hard seared in some areas and you've got the fat cap and you've got the aging, you've got these, like, play with texture and flavor going on.

26:04So you get, like, that chewier piece and you've got that more velvety piece. Yeah, your face is. Yeah, I'm still not a steak girl, but I grew up vegetarian. So, you know, steak was a more recent thing for me anyways. But it's just fascinating. I'm just not quite sure who it's for because that's the thing that's complicated to me. Because I think if you're someone who is omnivorous, right, and is trying to eat less meat generally, you're still not going to go to a steakhouse and order the Beyond Meat steak. Because a steakhouse tends to be more of a special occasion restaurant, unless you're someone who's going to steakhouses very regularly.

26:38But I think that's, again, like a rare set of person. Yeah. I feel like this is like a CPG thing, right? I think it would be smarter if they sold it to the home cook. Yeah. So this was like position for food service. Yes. The presentation you saw on this. Interesting. Okay. Well. And they told me that they didn't have plans to necessarily roll this out to home cooks just yet. So it's all food service. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, it's a smart play by them. I mean, they have like a much tighter marketing budget than going fully wide. I think it'd be genius if they actually did with a bunch of taco trucks and did like a birria.

27:11So smart. Like that, like all shredded up. Like I could see that being delicious and it kind of. Don't say enough. You got to charge them for this shit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You're right. No, no, I'm kidding. But like. Call me. Call. Yeah. Open for biz. I do think that thinking about food trucks, thinking about like Philly cheesesteak. Yes. For food service. Right. But getting the texture right. because like you know a vegan plant-based cheese steak you see it so often and it's it's a tough hang tough tough hang but okay i mean it's an impressive product in that like they clearly thought about it when it comes out on a plate you're like oh this is like it's not as beautiful as some of you know the other steaks that kind of exist in the world but i get it like it's not unappealing looking if you're looking to eat some of this steak yeah well i want to talk about your brand new cookbook it's coming out in the fall okay that's a joke We were joking off.

28:00The book came out last year, but I was like, yeah, the book is like one of my favorite books of the past year. We had an episode and talked all about it. Let's just remind listeners about it because I love it. And yeah, go on book tour again. Yeah, it's called Umrican. Umrican. All about the food of the Indian American diaspora. Yeah. There are zero steak recipes in the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. But, you know, you could use steak in some of the recipes. Yeah, you can do a big beyond steak if you want. So, but like, I mean, you're a year out of it and people are just finally starting to see it.

28:33Some people, I mean, we had great press, but like, I mean, what was the response like in general? It's been really lovely. I mean, it's like, it's a, I feel like it's a slow burn book where it like continues. It's really nice. Like I still get messages daily from people who are just coming from it for the first time or returning back to it. It has a really strong hold amongst the white person marrying an Indian person crowd. which is actually really nice. Like I didn't realize that that was the market that I made dominate. But it's very charming to watch people be like, oh, I bought this because my husband or my wife is Indian, you know.

29:07Very cool. And I just want to be able to like cook more stuff from the culture. That's so beautiful. That's really sweet to me. That's a beautiful thing. Yeah. I've sold a lot of men their first cookbook, which I find also very like charming. I've had an uncle, like uncles, like we call, you know, elder men in the community uncles. They're not necessarily uncle by blood. but like I've had uncles message me being like oh we don't have an excuse to not cook anymore like this shouldn't just all be on our wives like we have this book that actually like really shows us how to do some of these things yeah and it's so editorial and like great storytelling and writing and just point of view writing which I love what's a recipe just one recipe that people are making oh the sog paneer lasagna yeah continues to be a runaway hit yeah sounds so delicious have you seen any recipes on on like restaurant menus yet sog paneer lasagna someone like copied that one And I was like, oh, fascinating.

29:54I mean, I'm. High compliment. I've seen some Koreatown recipes. I mean, and I like, I'm like, Dookie has his own response, I'm sure. But I kind of find it flattering. Yeah, I find it flattering. I love that. I mean, if you're a chef, maybe it's different to a chef book and you don't want to copy it. But to see a sag panier lasagna. I just wish they would like just do like a slight shout out, you know. It would be nice too. I think crediting is just not that hard. Like anyone that I was inspired by or like gently riffed on their stuff, I messaged them and then made sure to like also shout them out in the book.

30:23Like I have a Carolyn fried chicken recipe, fried chicken sandwich recipe in the book. But the actual fried chicken is based off of an Asha Gomez recipe. Oh, who is amazing. I love my riff on that recipe. And then I turned it into a sandwich. But Asha is named very clearly. My two styles, fried chicken. Yeah. What many, many. She's amazing. She's brilliant to do it with buttermilk was genius. It's a great recipe. And I was like, it takes me all of two minutes to like credit somebody. And I just don't understand. I feel like this is like something that a lot of content creators are like running into online now.

30:55Because there's no way that you can develop that many recipes a day and be an expert at making biryani and pad thai and, you know, butter chicken and whatever. And then they're all your recipes. No way. Like, no way. Yeah, you just say inspired or created by originally. I like restaurant menu credits. Yes. That's always a fun thing to see. Yeah, always inspired. I was inspired by, have you ever been to Badmash in LA? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, so they do like a poutine, you know, because the boys are from Canada, the guys who own it. And like I riffed off of, I was like, oh, I want a masala poutine, you know, in the book.

31:30I was like, I was inspired by them to like do that in the book. Again, it takes two seconds to shout it out. Takes two seconds. We actually, when we launched Taste in 2017 on our launch day for our launch content, we had a Badmash profile. Oh, amazing. Got to meet the boys then. I haven't been back in a while. They're opening a new location. Oh, very cool. Yeah, they're expanding. Yeah, they're opening in Venice. I love it. Let's talk about the Substack of it all. Okay. Because I think you are really growing your audience, and you used to work at Food & Wine and other publications, Eater. And you left traditional publishing to do Substack and, of course, other things.

32:06And let's just check in on it. How is it going with the monetization of Substack and just writing for yourself? Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the freedom is cool. I think I'm constantly in a debate of do I – there's a lot of stuff where I'm like, do I write this for my sub stack or do I pitch it out? Because it could be something that runs on Eater or Bon Appetit, Food & Wine, New York Times, like places that I write for. Like I did something on my sub stack about how runners are obsessed with nerds' gummy clusters. Yes. And that's a reported piece. That could have easily – I could have easily sold that.

32:38That could be on a taste story, right? No, I know. And it's like – but I was like, oh, maybe I'll just try doing it for my sub stack. But what's interesting is like now going to places where I need to get sources and pitching them on my Substack and be like, oh, talk to me for this thing. But it's not quite, you know, like a Feed Me level like Emily Sunderburg or like Rachel Carton's like incredible newsletter about social media called Lincoln Bio. Like they have grown gigantic audiences because they've been on Substack. They've consistently been writing on Substack for like over five years at this point.

33:08I mean, the pace of Feed Me is nuts. Yeah, yeah. Respect Emily. Yeah. Like, I don't know how she does it. Like, it is truly incredible to, like, watch someone publish. Hard work, man. Yeah. Five times a week minimum. Nuts. For that many years straight is actually crazy to me. Like, impressive and crazy. And so I've been learning a lot. Like, Substack really does like consistency. Like, the audience loves consistency. Like, I had a few months where I was on book tour and was not able to be as consistent. And, like, you notice things. Open rates are lower. Yeah. Open rates. Oh, unsubscribes. People will unsubscribe quick.

33:43But they'll resubscribe too, you know, when you start becoming consistent again. It's interesting. I think like I've started my own and just like starting to see how it works. I'm really curious. That's kind of why I want to do it and do some more writing for myself. It seems to me that we're going back to blogs. It feels very bloggy. Like the stuff that does. And that's a positive. Yes. The stuff that does the best for me are like the most opinionated. Yeah. Just really me like riffing off of things that I've just been thinking about. or the like the rabbit holes that i'm really interested in you know i didn't want to do a recipe sub stack just because like my i like recipe development clearly wrote a cookbook but like there's people that are like brilliant at that you know nick sharma for example very good at like regularly developing right that's his passion though you know like that's a heady mckinnon another incredible sub stack with recipes yeah i swear by heady recipes you know all day and all night um but like it's clearly like that's the thing that they're thinking about at two in the morning you know what is their brain tickering about my brain is thinking about like why is mike's hot honey everywhere that's a story coming out soon but like i'm like why why do they do like 300 collabs this year like why is that happening yeah like that's what i'm thinking about in the morning you know like that's so i was like okay my subset cannot be like a recipe cooking focused one when i'm so interested in more like the business yeah of food you know more than anything or like how we interact with it you know on a daily basis that's not necessarily like in a cooking i love that there's an audience for that because i think like there's obviously going to be an audience for recipes because like people love recipes and just love it doesn't mean they cook even they just love the idea recipes and we love them like the show we talk about recipes all the time but i think there's less coverage on sub stacks and blogs or the blog of sub stack i'll say yeah um when you're doing not just hot takes but like a little more reported a little bit more opiniony opiniony but it's not necessarily editorial features like taste during your times No.

35:39There's like that in between that I think is kind of intoxicating. It's kind of fun. The bar to publish is a lot lower, right? Like say I was doing a piece for where any sort of like major publication, I would need three, four, five, six sources like minimum. Yeah. This is like I can off the cuff talk to a server. I can observe something and then bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop. You know, it's like a it's a story. And that's kind of what blogging. That's how food writing online started with like Eater and many others. Like, and a return to that is exciting, but doing it creator focused and paying creators directly is the unlock.

36:14I also love the app. I think that it feels like old Google reader a little bit. It has that. Yeah. There's a lot I like about it though. I'm a little bit, I don't know if you know about subsect notes. Like sometimes. I'll dabble a note. Yeah. I like the occasional note, but sometimes it's a lot of, I just really struggle when people on the platform keep talking about a platform, you know, and like that started to happen like kind of the sub stack notes section at a certain point i'm like yeah there's something really like lovely about just like opening your inbox and just having what you want exactly like delivered to you that's like that tab is like the rss nature yeah i think notes i'm just been kind of flexing like a little like extended caption photo shit that's what i've been fun yeah um i i like it uh but you're gonna keep going you're keep yeah you know it's always a work in progress but you know figuring out like how to what is you know sort of hitting and not Also, like, what am I enjoying doing, right?

37:06Like, that's the thing. What is it that I feel like I can write about, like, every single week? Or what am I actually excited to write about? What's your target for posts a week? Right now I'm trying to do two. Like, one free, one paid. That's a good model. I like that. And I think two is, like, a perfect amount for readers. Yeah. It's not, like, daily. I mean, Feed Me is great because it's newsier. But, like, when it comes to, like, a single voice, it's, you know. Also, Feed Me is, like, so perfect for, like, a certain audience, right? It's very coastal. Like, New York, L.A. people, like, you know, who want to know about these things.

37:34They have a high appetite for consumption on these kinds of things. I think I'm probably going for a slightly broader audience than that, though I'm sure my audience is very coastal. Yeah. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

38:14That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception.

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39:30As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. All right. On this is Taste. We have guests and brother to certain taste at a close. This interview is a rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Like, I'm ready. Let's go. We did this a year ago, but I think you're going to have some different answers. Okay. Because we always do.

40:05The best fruit. Mangoes. All right. That's probably not a different answer. Definitely the same answer. That's my life. Respect, respect. Mangoes are actually lychees, too. I love a lyche. Oh, pivot to lyche. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how to pivot. Not a pivot. That's my word is nice. Thank you for correcting. The worst vegetable. Oh, sunchokes. Yeah. Ban them forever. Ban them off this planet. Who needs them? They taste like farts. So uninterested. They make you that. And they make you farty. Yeah. When you have a raw sunchoke, you know you've had a raw sunchoke. It's a nails and a chalkboard vegetable for me.

40:35I never want them. So when you were running Best New Chefs in Restaurant, Edited Food and Wine, you saw sunchokes where you just like - I couldn't eat them. It knocked the restaurant down. Restaurants ask, like it's gotten to the point where, you know, people always ask like, oh, do you have any allergies? And I'm like, sunchokes. Fair. I like that. Yeah. It gets me around it without having to sound like a brat. Yeah. Bring me a menu with a black bar over the sunchoke. Yeah, I don't want to see it. That's what I'm saying. All right. What is your typical breakfast? Ooh, I'm a Greek yogurt, fruit, maybe a little chia seed pudding.

41:02Yeah. Girly. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. We're aligned. We're aligned. The best dessert. Ooh, like the best dessert somewhere or just generally? Let's say in the world for you in the universe. Ooh, that's a tough one. As a category, as an item, not restaurant. Okay. I'm a real ice cream head. So like really incredible soft serve. Yeah. like really incredible soft serve like the hokkaido milk soft serve you know like i love milk flavored ice cream yeah above all and i love like a really thick creamy soft serve like that when it's milk flavored milk flavored yeah fior de latte milk a lot of i love that though so good good call a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead oh this is so hard okay two part answer one uncle boon's in new york i mean i'm so glad we still have tight diner you know anytime I go to visit.

41:52But Uncle Boone's was just magical. Yeah, that cavernous thing. It was such an era. Yeah. This was the first time I ever had khao soi. Like, there was just a lot of firsts for me, I think. And that restaurant was very formative for me. And, like, I just really loved it. Two, I want to bring back Olive Garden in the era where they were making fresh pasta at the restaurant. Do you remember this at all? I have no memory of it being like that. I think about this all the time. I think I was, like, maybe five or six years old when they stopped doing this. But I remember visiting the Olive Garden, like, in my hometown of Okemos, Michigan.

42:18And there was always a counter in the front where there was people making fresh pasta. And I have straight up Googled this because I was like, am I making this up? This is a figment of my imagination. It's not. There was an era where Olive Garden was actually making fresh pasta at their locations. Bring it back. Yeah, seriously, guys. Yeah. Because I feel like they really pride themselves. They pat themselves on the back for having like an institute in Italy. Yes. And we're sending our chefs there. And they try hard. But then it's like microwave food when you come back here. Like, why? But they want the optics of freshly made.

42:49So just, or at least do a sub Olive Garden. Do, like, a special cantina. Yeah, like a higher-end Olive Garden. Cuisina. Cuisina. Do a casino. Yeah, like, call it something different and then bring out the nonas. Yes. You know. It was actually, it was like, from my memory, it was men in, like, chef's caps. Like, chef's hats. Yeah. It doesn't matter. Someone making fresh pasta. Make the fresh pasta. Yeah, it should just be, like, Evan Funky making fresh pasta in his, like, pasta rooms. When you're craving fast food Where are you going? I mean I'm a Taco Bell girl Way through and through Everyone knows this Tribute in your book Yeah it's a South Asian Like you know DNA in it Do you know what also though?

43:25Culver's Oh yeah Huge Midwestern chain That actually has like locations Like Arizona and Vegas Well that's where the Midwestern Is going to winter time Correct They do cheese curds Which is amazing They have a great veggie burger On the menu They do They have a great grilled cheese Their cheese sauce With the fries Amazing I have not devils in it It's a superior cheese sauce. Yeah. We have Culver's all over where I grew up. Yeah. I'm all about it. And then custard, you know? Yeah, frozen custard to end it. Yeah. It's like a dream restaurant. I mean, it's hitting some notes. Honestly, amazing. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food?

43:57Ooh, London. Yeah. Ooh, I love the choice. Yeah, I love London. London's a perfect city. Everyone, I don't know. I love riding the buses. London, everyone thinks New York is so diverse. Way to go to London. It's so global. Listen, I get that the UK has a bad rep for food, but that's outside of London. City of London, unbelievable for food. Very, very true. The best of so many cuisines are actually there. Very true. And I think the economics are in the diners' favor there. Yeah, 100%. It's more affordable. The structures are quite different with wages. Also, even just a general high street restaurant, you can always eat well for 10 to 15 pounds.

44:33Exactly. And you cannot do that in New York. No. Even Los Angeles, it's a struggle. LA too. I'm just trying. I'm working on something in my brain about writing about that. Because there isn't like a$10 meal in New York. Like it's really hard to find a$10 meal like anywhere. When Sweetgreen's like 19, it's like. Sweetgreen's 19? Add on a few things here and there, yeah. Woof. Yeah, it's expensive, man. That's tough. Yeah, I like Sweetgreen though. It's worth the$19, I'll tell you that. Yeah. But it. I mean, that's just like a tough economic price point. It's very real that there isn't a$10 meal in New York.

45:07But I mean, there are. But even fast food has like crept up to like an unbelievable amount. Exactly. I remember, I mean, not to bring up Taco Bell again, but I remember going to Taco Bell with my family, family of four, and it's like$8. Probably feed the whole family. Oh, for sure. At this point. Tacos for$5. Yeah. Or like the double deckers. Amazing. Yeah. But even now, I think I got a Crunchwrap Supreme recently and like didn't use the app and didn't use all the deals and like whatever. You know, and it was, I think, seven or eight bucks for just a Crunchwrap Supreme. and I was like, that's a lot.

45:39You've got to use the apps. You've got to use the apps. Those apps are. You've saved so much money. I know. It's crazy. I've used the apps. Yeah. I've used the apps. Last one, your favorite sandwich. In LA? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, Breadhead. Oh, I've not been yet. Oh, you've got to go. You cannot leave without going to Breadhead. How far is it from here? We're in Hollywood right now. A little far. Okay. But do you know what? On your way to the airport, you're flying out of LAX. Yeah, yeah. Yes, because it's in Santa Monica. They have a new location in Manhattan Beach too. but the mozzarella sandwich at breadhead i have loved it since they were a pop-up yeah it is unbelievable they have this like za 'atar spread on there that is like so i want to just swear so many like so many words um it is so unbelievably good i don't know why more sandwiches don't have za 'atar on there they make this like their bread they make like in-house and it's like a focaccia that is like perfect for sandwiches it has this incredible mozzarella on there like pickled onions Like it's just everything you want.

46:36The texture is amazing. The price point is actually incredible. Yeah. Like the large size easily feeds two people and it's about$12 a person. It's like a, it's like a honker. It's a double double sin. They also make the best pimento cheese in the city. Oh, which is a hot tip. Yeah. Hot tip. And it's a great beach sandwich. So you can like rock up, like place your order ahead of time, rock up, grab the sandwich, go to the beach. I love that. Kush Busha. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.

47:07Julia Wolfson, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? I'm doing fine on this Monday morning. Yeah, I want to talk about coffee in California. It's a topic you cover so well in your writing, and we've been chatting online. I was like, just come on the show. Let's take this online conversation to the podcast. And I think my first question is, honestly, what's the coffee this morning? What did you wake up with? Oh, well, I've been drinking the last few grams of Finca Sofia, which is from Panama, which is Willem Boots Farm up in the Boquete volcanic region. And at the beginning of September, I'm going to visit his farm for a food and wine story.

47:51Amazing. Amazing. So what's your setup like? How are you doing your coffee at home? Oh, it looks a little ridiculous. I have a pour over setup. I have an Aiden brewer. I have a Balmuda the brew and there's a Breville espresso machine that is mostly used by my college age daughter, but I do occasionally use that one as well. But I'm really a pour over geek. Absolutely. Co-sign on that. It's nice to have an espresso machine. Yeah, those are cool. But I want to taste the coffee. I want to pour over a filter. So tell me a little bit about some of the coffees you're drinking, what's in the rotation?

48:31Well, I get a lot of samples from people who want me to taste or I like to support shops and I'll bring coffee beans home. So one of the stories that I did for Food and Wine Magazine was to learn how to freeze the coffee properly so that I didn't feel like I was always wasting coffee or letting it get stale. And so I tend to have a bit of a library in my freezer of coffees that I brought back from different trips or if someone sends me too many bags to drink at once. And right now there's a box of counterculture that just showed up with their new equilibrium. So that's on the counter and the rest of the bags are in the freezer.

49:07It's cool to taste the evolution of an iconic blend like equilibrium. I love doing that and getting sent or buying blends. And I think I'd love to get your take on blends. I think we focus so much on single origin coffees in our day-to-day coffee drinking, with the exception of Yes, Please, which does an incredible blend and kind of started in the blend world. But what do you think about blends? I think it's the chance for the roaster and the coffee company owners to cook. I mean, they get to put ingredients together and why not? I mean, it's so fun to drink a single origin, especially if it's in that flavor pocket, exactly your palate and just what you love to taste.

49:48but the blends are where they use the coffees that they can get, they use the coffees they have, they hit the tasting notes they're interested in and they have some play in it. They have some skin in the game. Absolutely agree. Well said, well said. So we have this really cool project I wanted to have you on to talk about, the golden state of coffee and it really focuses on coffee in California. I've long been a huge supporter of roasters and baristas in California. I once on this very show in 2019 had a live conversation with Nicely Abled, Jeff Watts, Bronwyn Cerna, and Kyle Glanville. I'm going to link to that conversation in the show notes.

50:28It's clear there's so much creativity in California. Why focus on this state? Well, I was born and raised here. I grew up in San Rafael in the Bay Area. I came to L.A. to go to UCLA and stayed here. I'm back and forth to the Bay Area many times a year. and all throughout California has actually become one of my beats because I'll write about travel and all different things around the state. So I know it well. It's kind of the story of me, but also we just have the most phenomenal thriving coffee scene here. The whole world has moved here. The diversity of the world is reflected in California culture.

51:07Then add on all of our beaches and mountains and people drinking coffee when they go surfing and when they go skiing and all that California culture. And the fact that the whole world comes to visit us because they want to visit California, but the coffee world comes to visit us as well. And you'll walk into a coffee shop and Hideo Izaki from Tokyo will be visiting or the head of April, coffee in Copenhagen, Patrick Rolfe will be having an event. So I just feel like so much of the world coffee culture coalesces in California, even though, of course, there's incredible coffee culture all over our country, all over the world, and, you know, phenomenal coffee everywhere.

51:50I just see a lot of it here. It's really well said. Totally agree. There's something about the cafe culture, too. And I think something about California and cold drinks, just the innovation there. It really feels like maybe it's the weather, maybe it's just the consumer is really driven to buy and support cold coffee service. Tell us about your thoughts on California cold coffee culture. It's really important here. Lots of people have decided that when it's sunny and it's warm, they drink cold coffee. I personally rarely drink cold coffee. It is not my order. I I will taste it when someone wants me to taste their cold brew or their flash brew or their ice latte.

52:36But I rarely will order it as what I choose to drink because I prefer hot coffee and the aromas and the scent and everything. But it's so much happening here all the time. I really appreciate when, for example, Frank Law won a big cold brew competition and he has started Be Bright Coffee here in Hollywood. and he's the 2024 US barista champion, but also a cold coffee expert. So that's when I understand that people are taking it seriously and that it's an important category and it can be made well so that it tastes great for anyone who really likes a lot of ice in their coffee. Big two-part question.

53:16So give us a couple California coffee roasters that you just really love right now and want to talk about. And second part is cafes. I know broadly speaking, cafes can be in many different forms, but where should we be drinking coffee in California right now? Oh, my gosh. We have such a big state. Do you have a whole day for me to go through these? I'll give you a few special ones. In Los Angeles, you can drink coffee at the newest, most contemporary art installation kind of space like file systems of coffee. And you kind of have to figure out what's going on in there. there's old tech there's octavia butler books there's screens fascinating and good coffee and then you can go downtown and you can drink coffee at aquarella which is in the historic art deco cal edison building and their coffee shop is in the lobby it's not a storefront it's in the lobby you get to hang out in the most beautiful lobby of any office building i've ever seen in my entire life and just hang out and drink incredible Brazilian coffee.

54:24So in Los Angeles, those are sort of some of the ideas of the spectrum of what's happening here. And in San Francisco, I just did a story for San Francisco Magazine highlighting some of their best cafes and roasters. It's such a thriving scene. It's so much fun. And these two big cities only scratch the surface of everything that's going on here. Really, really, really good list. and really support Julie here, this Golden State of Coffee project. How do we read your work? Well, you can follow me on Instagram. I've just started a newsletter on Substack. So if people have things they'd like me to highlight, they're welcome to reach out to me.

55:04Each week I'll have a theme or a question and just kind of start trying to get this all on paper. It's, you know, things I've been covering for so many different publications, things from my childhood, like the first newsletter is about how I grew up in the Bay Area in the 80s and my school was very less than zero and very wild parties and I was not game. I was afraid of the wild heavy drug parties and I would hang out at Cafe Trieste in North Beach and hang out with the most eclectic group of people, go to City Lights books, sit and drink espresso. And I'm not saying I never went to a high school party, but I certainly was more comfortable and had more fun hanging out in the city and drinking coffee than I did wondering who was going to get in a huge amount of trouble each night or what terrible thing was going to happen to one of my classmates.

55:57I mean, you're hooked early. And cafe culture in the 80s and into the 90s, I mean, we treasure those memories, we meaning you and I, who are a little older than some of our listeners. I mean, it's a different era. And And when cafe culture kind of was snubbed out in many ways with the VC-backed, sanitized cafes of the 2010s and 2020s, we saw a lot of those cafes go away. But I feel we're swinging back a little bit. A little bit. We're swinging back. I mean, James Freeman started in a farmer's market and then he used to open his garage and we'd say, hey, James, can I have an espresso? And it was so fun.

56:37And so it's kind of wild to see what's happened with Blue Bottle since then. But the way he started, it's fascinating that it was just about his love of coffee and making hand-drip cups of coffee. Let me ask you about your own writing. And really, what are some of the topics you like to cover that maybe our listeners who love coffee, but maybe they're missing these topics? Missing the topics. I mean, I pitch stories and I get assigned stories, anything from coffee guides in Copenhagen to the things that food and wine wants mostly are how-tos, how to make a pour-over, how to make a mocha pot coffee, how to freeze your coffee beans, store your coffee beans.

57:25And the fun thing for me is I could just write how to, but it's much more fun to call my colleagues and friends around the world and get their advice. And so Morgan Ekgroth will tell me about how she makes a mocha pot and I'll have pictures of her and her expertise, which is much more fun than me just kind of coalescing all of the advice from different people and making it into one set of advice, which you kind of have to do for part of the article. But it's the quotes and the advice from all of the barista experts and coffee roasters and leaders of the coffee community that make those stories so fun.

58:03Yeah, you mentioned some great people there. And I think the how-to element is absolutely in the wheelhouse for a lot of publications. But I also think that talking about origin and writing about farmers is so important. You spend time on, you know, at washing stations and on farms. What have you learned recently during this reporting? Well, one of the things was I got to visit Fringe Coffee in Goleta and learn all about California-grown coffee. And that was fascinating. And it was this extra fun day because we kind of made a little summit. And it was James Freeman, along with Jay Ruski of Fringe, and then Hide Zaki and Mickey Suzuki came with me because they were visiting from Japan.

58:49and we all met up and went to the coffee farm and walked through the fields and then saw where the cherries were, did a cupping. All of it was presented to them for them to consider serving in Japan at Cocoon, their tasting menu experience. So that was really fun. And my next trip, as I said, is Panama. And what's fun about that is Food & Wine is actually having me do a travel story about coffee because in Panama, there are hotels and coffee bars and tasting experiences in Panama City and in the coffee growing region accessible to the public to make a reservation for the hotel, the restaurants, the tasting experiences.

59:32So I'm going to Panama to experience all of that, to tell people about how accessible it is to really tap into the best of Panama. It's so cool that there is a tourism industry around coffee farming and it's real. You know, it's not just like that 20-minute experience of tasting coffees, which is fine. But just actually go to a farm and see cherry and see washing and see naturally processed coffees dried. I think that when you have that ability to see the process, you appreciate coffee so much more. Absolutely. Let me ask you about L.A. and this Korean coffee boom. It feels like there's a moment right now where these Korean cafes, either imports or fully grown in L.A., are really getting a lot of attention.

1:00:25That's absolutely true. I mean, I mentioned Frank Law, and he won the U.S. Barista Championship. And there's coffee shops all through Koreatown, Document and Alchemist and all these phenomenal coffee shops. And it's so interesting to see sort of the Korean American aspect of it and the Korean aspect of it, which Korean companies are coming here. There was a little stint with Camel Coffee, though that just ended, and people who were working with them have just changed it over to their own company. Nodded, which is a famous donut company and has a whole coffee program, they have opened in the Century City Mall and are opening downtown.

1:01:09There's einspanner cream tops everywhere. It's a controversy as to whether we should all have them all the time or if Maru shouldn't have to serve them anymore. And it's just fascinating to see all the Korean culture coming here and all the Korean American culture that just keeps thriving here. Amazing. We profiled a document in our book, Korea World, and also wrote about the coffee scene in Seoul. And I just love to see that Korean cuisine is expanding to coffee and there's an appreciation in L.A. I've asked this question to many in the industry, James Hoffman, James Freeman, Jimmy Butler. and I want to ask this to you and I think it's a tough question but I think you're up for it.

1:01:49What should the price of a cup of coffee be to fully represent the industry and all levels of coffee production? We can't afford it. I mean, think about the farmer grows it, harvests it, it goes processing, it needs to travel, it needs to be purchased and stored, roasted, then brought into the cafe. Then you need to run a whole cafe for hopefully really talented baristas to honor it and make a beautiful cup. So we're never going to be able to charge enough that really pays back for all of that. Hopefully there's some coffees that are a little less expensive because they're not best of Panama or something that at least, you know, we can keep serving really good coffee for$5 a cup.

1:02:40But when you go into a cafe like Kumquat Here or Glitch in Tokyo, and it starts at$7 and it goes up to$30, I don't understand why I'm not wealthy and I'm a little frugal, but I don't understand why it's not more common just to buy a$25 cup of coffee when all of our cocktails start at$15, whether they're good or not. Whether it's Stoli and soda, it's$15. And then if some artist and cocktail is$15 to$25, then trying to translate to everyone that if you really want to taste the best, you just have to pay enough that at least all the way down that chain, people get paychecks and get reimbursed. Beautiful, beautiful sentiment.

1:03:30Fully agree. And I'll just say I co-sign on like a macro brew costs$12 at a bar, and a cocktail costs$23, and they're not even the best in the world. But a cup of coffee for$17 or$20, that's a cup of excellence, a roast, and is beautifully handled by a world-class barista, and you're paying$17 for it. It's one of the greatest affordable luxuries in food. I feel like we should be supporting more of these experiences, And I think we are. I mean, I feel like I've been saying this since like 2018 on the show. And now we're at 2025 and more people are realizing that a$17 cup of coffee is not absurd.

1:04:13It's actually value. Absolutely. And recently, Kay Chan from Dune Coffee in Santa Barbara, he's the current 2025 U.S. barista champion. And he came to Ice Peeled in the sort of Beverlywood area, our friend Gabby's shop, and he served his competition drinks. And it was a tray and it was some Legos, which was part of his theme. And you got two of the drinks and it was$35. And a couple of people said, oh, I didn't know it was going to be$35. And I thought, well, $35 is a lot of money to me. I'm going to go home and make a sandwich for lunch, but it was worth it. And I felt really proud of him for just charging that and not$12 because it was really expensive coffee.

1:04:58He traveled from Santa Barbara with it. He was spending his day as the top barista in the whole country, making us coffee. And$35 is really a fair price for that whole experience. Oh, my gosh. I mean, we talk about gatekeeping and we talk about this, you know, food being unattainable with all this inflation happening. And here we are with the world renowned barista selling it for thirty five dollars and it's two drinks, not one. It's it's shocking. I mean, that the people who care so deeply about food is still here to this day, grumble about a bag of coffee costing twenty five dollars, a bag of world class, That's well-roasted, perfectly profiled coffees.

1:05:40Guys, wake up. All right, like listeners, like this is, you should be paying$25 for great coffee. Absolutely. And if Silverback Coffee can somehow roast their incredible coffees and sell them at Trader Joe's, then great. I hope they're making enough of a markup that it's worth it for their company. And that's some decent coffee at Trader Joe's. But if I'm gonna drink with the U.S. Barista Champion or a cup of excellence or a rare coffee or a well-grown and roasted geisha, I'm going to have to pay for it. Julia Wolfson, what a great conversation. I hope to have you back and we can check in on the Golden Seed of Coffee project.

1:06:19I'll be linking your sub stack in the show notes. Please subscribe. What a great conversation. Thank you so much. I was so happy to wake up and do this this morning while I'm sipping my coffee.

1:06:34This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.